749 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: Perhaps if Kyuubi wasn't really powerful like destroying a mountain with ease, the flow of Naruto's battle would have remain grounded rather going DBZ because we won't be expecting over the top power level, instead of many craziness that occurred in War Arc or earlier.

Agree or disagree?

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 28 June 2016 - 10:05 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Statement: Perhaps if Kyuubi wasn't really powerful like destroying a mountain with ease, the flow of Naruto's battle would have remain grounded rather going DBZ because we won't be expecting over the top power level, instead of many craziness that occurred in War Arc or earlier.

Agree or disagree?

 

I sort of agree, but at the same time, it didn't help that Kishimoto never once tried to fully explain the Biju's power, which is why Kurama's power was so over the top for sure, along with all the others.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Statement: Perhaps if Kyuubi wasn't really powerful like destroying a mountain with ease, the flow of Naruto's battle would have remain grounded rather going DBZ because we won't be expecting over the top power level, instead of many craziness that occurred in War Arc or earlier.

Agree or disagree?

Hmmm...I guess I both agree and disagree...

I agree since it really did simply become DBZ style powerhouse(s) vs. powerhouse(s) (and even Biju chakra vs. Biju chakra in terms of vs. Obito and Madara), but at the same time, it probably could have worked a lot better IF Kurama and his chakra was executed better rather than simply being used as a crutch and convenient hax power-up that always only ever came out when Naruto was in trouble (the only time he really semi-controlled it was against Neji and early on against Sasuke, but that was still a miniscule amount), which made Kurama's sudden 180 in attitude during the War Arc and just giving Naruto total control of his (half of) chakra, as well as Naruto just magically knowing how to use it all even though he ran out on his training of using half of that half before, look really forced and stupid.

If they cut down on a chunk of the story (a lot of the Uchiha wanking and Sasuke angst) and give A LOT more focus on Naruto like DB / Z did with Goku, then they could have actually given more focus and a more steady progress of Naruto growing in power bit by bit which could have lead to him start training to use Kurama's chakra and ultimately build up to that "final form". But because a lot of it feels pulled from the rear out of hax convenience rather than training and earning it, it ruins any sort of experience like that

[Nate River]

Statement: Perhaps if Kyuubi wasn't really powerful like destroying a mountain with ease, the flow of Naruto's battle would have remain grounded rather going DBZ because we won't be expecting over the top power level, instead of many craziness that occurred in War Arc or earlier.

Agree or disagree?

 

Disagree.

 

Kyuubi's power was established at the beginning, but the series didn't have an issue with this until mid-way through part 2. However, when the issues hit it got out of had really fast. The sharingan was every bit of a problem as the bijuu. The issue really is something that all long running shounen run into. The hero faces a seemingly unbeatable opponent, trains to beat them, beats them, and then has to face the new guy. The new guy now has to be strong enough to face the hero. I thought the was handled well until the Hidan/Kakuzu arc and then it all went to hell. 

[rikakim94]

Hey touken i want a topic suggestion do you think kishi will make a manga thats good as naruto? or no he's an untalented manga author that will never make another good series?

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

Disagree.

 

Kyuubi's power was established at the beginning, but the series didn't have an issue with this until mid-way through part 2. However, when the issues hit it got out of had really fast. The sharingan was every bit of a problem as the bijuu. The issue really is something that all long running shounen run into. The hero faces a seemingly unbeatable opponent, trains to beat them, beats them, and then has to face the new guy. The new guy now has to be strong enough to face the hero. I thought the was handled well until the Hidan/Kakuzu arc and then it all went to hell. 

Yeah, after Kakuzu/Hidan, I was hoping Naruto would continue to try to train to learn and master his own power, like actually learn to create the Rasengan and its variants with a single hand, without Kage Bunshin, or any separate power, and throw it all on his own. Aside from stuff like the Sharingan and Biju chakra, the fact Naruto didn't really change much in-between parts one and two was another big problem and made him into a real one-trick pony where simply adding more Biju chakra was really the only way he could get that much stronger. Even Sage Mode overall takes a backseat to it.

Along with learning other abilities that can help Naruto as an overall more balanced shinobi (finding some just won't work for him too), as Naruto goes along that road, he can end up actually talking with Kurama and then work on his relationship with Kurama bit by bit as he progresses. Eventually, Kurama could come to see Naruto is someone he really can trust and won't betray him and thus would take it upon himself to actually train Naruto in how to use his chakra (let's face it, who else besides other Jinchuriki or Biju themselves would truly know how to use a Biju's chakra?), starting with the incomplete cloak, until Naruto masters that, and then eventually the complete cloak we see at the end. It could've lead to more steady progress and more believable power-ups.

Instead, Kishi just kept all but handing out more and more power between Naruto and Sasuke because he stupidly keeps taking the other too far and only seems to realize at the last second how outclassed he makes the opposition because of that new power-up..

[LuckyChi7]

You know one thing still bugs me why couldn't Jiriaiya teach Naruto sage mode during the two year time skip? 

 

I mean I know there's was the whole Kyubbi training which obviously didn't go so well, but I mean could you imagine if Naruto showcased Sage mode during the bell test redux scene it would showcase what he learned cause aside from maturity (to some degree) Naruto didn't really learn anything combat wise/ justsu wise from Jiraiya. 

Edited by LuckyChi7, 02 July 2016 - 03:46 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Yeah, after Kakuzu/Hidan, I was hoping Naruto would continue to try to train to learn and master his own power, like actually learn to create the Rasengan and its variants with a single hand, without Kage Bunshin, or any separate power, and throw it all on his own. Aside from stuff like the Sharingan and Biju chakra, the fact Naruto didn't really change much in-between parts one and two was another big problem and made him into a real one-trick pony where simply adding more Biju chakra was really the only way he could get that much stronger. Even Sage Mode overall takes a backseat to it.

Along with learning other abilities that can help Naruto as an overall more balanced shinobi (finding some just won't work for him too), as Naruto goes along that road, he can end up actually talking with Kurama and then work on his relationship with Kurama bit by bit as he progresses. Eventually, Kurama could come to see Naruto is someone he really can trust and won't betray him and thus would take it upon himself to actually train Naruto in how to use his chakra (let's face it, who else besides other Jinchuriki or Biju themselves would truly know how to use a Biju's chakra?), starting with the incomplete cloak, until Naruto masters that, and then eventually the complete cloak we see at the end. It could've lead to more steady progress and more believable power-ups.

Instead, Kishi just kept all but handing out more and more power between Naruto and Sasuke because he stupidly keeps taking the other too far and only seems to realize at the last second how outclassed he makes the opposition because of that new power-up..

There were probably a few reasons why he didn't or couldn't just slow down and show Naruto and Kurama forming a bond. One, the anime was always nipping at his heels. So to make sure it didn't over take the plot again, He had to keep a certain pace. When Kubo didn't keep his pace because he wanted to slow down and focus more on the battles SP got frustrated that they had to keep making filler they eventually just canceled the bleach anime. Two, after the first editor left there was never anyone skilled enough to notice something like that and suggest something to improve the story. Since the new editors were simply focus on making hinata the heroine for years. Three, it is a snowball effect once it started it is very hard to notice, and/or stop once it start rolling, until it too late. And Four, He probably didn't think about it till it was far to late.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 02 July 2016 - 05:30 AM.

[Catra]

you know, we never did see kurama with a simple tail whip destroy mountains and send title waves crashing through the shores. Perhaps that was because he was big during his debute and became half his size afterwards (still big though)

 

im disappointed in kurama's power thought

 

shukaku: sand/wind

matatabi: fire

sanbi: coral/water

yonbi: lava

gobi: steam

rokubi: BUBBLES/acid

shichibi: powder/flight

hachibi: ink

kurama: HEART!

Edited by Catra, 02 July 2016 - 05:57 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

you know, we never did see kurama with a simple tail whip destroy mountains and send title waves crashing through the shores. Perhaps that was because he was big during his debute and became half his size afterwards (still big though)

 

im disappointed in kurama's power thought

 

shukaku: sand/wind

matatabi: fire

sanbi: coral/water

yonbi: lava

gobi: steam

rokubi: BUBBLES/acid

shichibi: powder/flight

hachibi: ink

kurama: HEART!

By your powers combined, I am a weird angry mother tree thing!!!

[TouKen4Life3g]

There's a lot of good discussion going on here. I'll post a new one later today. Keep it up.

Hey touken i want a topic suggestion do you think kishi will make a manga thats good as naruto? or no he's an untalented manga author that will never make another good series?

It's subjective to think Naruto is good or not. The only thing I can comment is if the next series will be as successful as Naruto. My guess is no and not based on quality since it doesn't exist as of now. The reason is because I feel Naruto was his big break and came around the time that they want something that peaks interest to the audience.

Underdog + ninja + idea still "fresh" = profit

Because of those mixed, it was a huge success. I said "fresh" because around that time, it wasn't noticeably done a lot to audience, so this feels rather new. It's similar to Matrix parody, many like to pull off those effects, but after some time, it gets old and very tiresome. Naruto was done at the right time. It's not to say the series wasn't ever good, because it was in my opinion. It's just lasted long enough to expose its flaws and growing new ones.

In a way, this could be argued on why My Hero Academia and Black Clover aren't major success (well at least on BC since in here, it's not even charted in top 10 seller), because people perhaps are tired about it. Same could be said in Japan as the sales aren't amazing, just good. So can Kishi create another success? I doubt it as his ideas aren't original and executing on things that are done already aren't standout moments. He may struggle if anything. I can be wrong but we just have to wait.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 02 July 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[Namaenash]

I'm not an Oracle, but I agree on one thing: the next series will not be as good, or as profitable.

Other authors have experienced the same outcome. Most of the successful authors will have one hit series in his/her career lifetime. And in many cases, it's a combination of fresh idea, good story telling and sympathetic characters.

[LuckyChi7]

I'm not an Oracle, but I agree on one thing: the next series will not be as good, or as profitable.

Other authors have experienced the same outcome. Most of the successful authors will have one hit series in his/her career lifetime. And in many cases, it's a combination of fresh idea, good story telling and sympathetic characters.

 

 

I'll admit that's actually a pretty true statement right there, and this one is coming from me but Jinsei Kataoka the writer, and  Kazuma Kondou the artists did an amazing job with the series Deadman Wonderland I would even go as far as saying that it's probably my second favorite complete manga series after O-Parts Hunter.   I know they've started doing Smokin Parade which I'll be fair I like the premise of the story, but so far I don't think it's as good as Deadman Wonderland was to be honest. 

 

 

So in a way the same thing can be said about Seishi, Kishi's brother, someone I praise so much after reading O-Parts Hunter and how amazing that was, but the series he did afterwards like Blazer Drive was great, but I didn't find it on the same level as O-Parts Hunter and I might be wrong about this, but I think it wasn't doing too well in the rankings and it might've gotten cancelled cause that seemed kinda rushed.  I know he's doing Sukedachi Nine which is also wrapping up, hopefully that one isn't ending due to low rankings, but from what i read I actually found myself really impressed with what he was able to deliver and I'd like to see what happens in the other chapters if the people translating it would at the very least finish it..

 

 

The only mangaka/mangakas that i think we're able to sucessfully deliver on continous great series are Oba the writer and Obata the artist of Death Note and Bakuman I mean back to back they've delivered amazing content, and I got to say I'm also really enjoying how they're handling their current manga, Platinum End there's alot that reminds me of Death Note, but in a good way.. and so far it's got potential to be as good as Death note and Bakuman. 

 

I think another one is the mangaka of Full Metal Alchemist who also did Silver Spoon and i heard that one was really popular. 

 

I know the mangaka of Pandora Hearts (Which I still need to finish reading actually, on Volume 11)  is doing another manga series, can anyone tell me if it's as good as that one? 

 

Anyway my point is that Masashi would need a miracle for  him have something as good as Part 1 Naruto and I will argue even as good as the First Half of Part II. 

[rocci]

@touken
Disagree.
It already establish since chapter one. They're walking nuke and that's why they need to be powerful. Eventhought a bunch of ninja wizard capable to defeat them, akatsuki.

Naruto fight will not be ground but it would not be like dbz because it doesn't scale to world destroyer.
But the criticism over bijuu is the lack of presence In the story, because kishi focus on sasuke soo much.

@catra
Kurama doesn't have elemental power. But he has the stronger chakra reverse and regeneration. He doesn't have utility but he has incredible power compare to the other bijuu.

@rikarim
It really depend. He could make a hit and quality story comparable to osamu tezuka or urasawa naoki.

Personally, I really doubt it because while he's good artist, he's a bad writer. In order to make great manga you need both.

[Bail o' Lies]

There's a lot of good discussion going on here. I'll post a new one later today. Keep it up.

It's subjective to think Naruto is good or not. The only thing I can comment is if the next series will be as successful as Naruto. My guess is no and not based on quality since it doesn't exist as of now. The reason is because I feel Naruto was his big break and came around the time that they want something that peaks interest to the audience.

Underdog + ninja + idea still "fresh" = profit

Because of those mixed, it was a huge success. I said "fresh" because around that time, it wasn't noticeably done a lot to audience, so this feels rather new. It's similar to Matrix parody, many like to pull off those effects, but after some time, it gets old and very tiresome. Naruto was done at the right time. It's not to say the series wasn't ever good, because it was in my opinion. It's just lasted long enough to expose its flaws and growing new ones.

In a way, this could be argued on why My Hero Academia and Black Clover aren't major success (well at least on BC since in here, it's not even charted in top 10 seller), because people perhaps are tired about it. Same could be said in Japan as the sales aren't amazing, just good. So can Kishi create another success? I doubt it as his ideas aren't original and executing on things that are done already aren't standout moments. He may struggle if anything. I can be wrong but we just have to wait.

The problem is, that I don't think kishimoto has truly learned and grown as a creator or mangaka. Yes, he was growing during his early years, sure. But he eventually reach a certain point got complacent and stop improving. He by the end relied too much on his assistants and editors dictating his story to him. He stopped thinking about where his story should logically be going next and just did what they told him to do. He stop making any major improvement on his art because he wanted to look like the anime style so it would be easier to adapted. He let his editors decided the ending for him which led to where we are now. He is currently the editor of the Boruto manga. The first chapter he didn't care since he let that art slide by...as well as the story just being a copy paste. Then for the second chapter according to someone he actually had to take over as the artist at certain points in the chapter. 

 

Some people their first work is the worst project and they improve with each one until the create their magnum opus near the end of their life. Others they are a one hit wonder. Which do you think kishi looks like right about now?

 

Ironically he wouldn't be a one hit wonder, if he didn't end the manga the way he did. But that ending and everything after damaged his reputation. So it's unlikely that many people will give him a second shot with his new project/s.  

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 02 July 2016 - 05:16 PM.

[Catra]

@catra
Kurama doesn't have elemental power. But he has the stronger chakra reverse and regeneration. He doesn't have utility but he has incredible power compare to the other bijuu.
 

i recall kishi himself admitting that he didn't know how to display how powerful he really was aside from a massive chakra battery, makes the biggest bijuu bombs, and when naruto went into his first cloak mode he could sense negative emotions. pretty bland sounding to me which is why i was disappointed. perhaps maybe if the bijuu bomb was exclusive only to him....hmmm

[rocci]

i recall kishi himself admitting that he didn't know how to display how powerful he really was aside from a massive chakra battery, makes the biggest bijuu bombs, and when naruto went into his first cloak mode he could sense negative emotions. pretty bland sounding to me which is why i was disappointed. perhaps maybe if the bijuu bomb was exclusive only to him....hmmm

Ah yeah, that ability to sense emotion is lame, but other than that I think it's really great power. I mean I always see kurama like godzilla.
So he only have stronger bijuu bomb, massive chakra, and regeneration are enough because it would make naruto learn other jutsu.

[TouKen4Life3g]

The emotion part was too campy, even for shounen.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

By your powers combined, I am a weird angry mother tree thing!!!

 

Oh, great, it's the forest wanting to kick our asses for failing to head Smokey the Bear's words!

[Catra]

 

Oh, great, it's the forest wanting to kick our asses for failing to head Smokey the Bear's words!

oh the irony.

Edited by Catra, 03 July 2016 - 12:20 AM.