I'm merely pointing out the concept of reincarnation is different in Naruto, and doesn't show the similar signs used in other fiction, such as looking the same, having memories of their past life, etc. By what we know, it's not reincarnations as it is a transmigration. Asuhra and Indra's chakra attaches themselves to a person of choice. Also, their presence remains separate from the person they attach to. Naruto could sense Indra's presence when clashing with Sasuke at the bridge in the second Team 7 reunion. Naruto could infer the same with himself where he could sense Ashura's presence with him, though he had no idea exactly who they were, but he knew they were there.
It's a metaphysical transference of energy that can neither be seen or touched but can register a suitable vessel similar to itself that seems to have the effect of the person following a well-defined path towards greatness. Eventually the person in question comes to recognize themselves for who they are and accept it while doing just enough to distinguish themselves from their past lives. A commonplace trope which I fail to see how it abandons any normal methods of reincarnation. That's only explaining the common effects that take place when the essence settles into a person though. Is there supposed to be some drastic change in the method and meaning if the energy sunk into the person after they were born?
We have no idea if Hashirama or Madara met the sage or not. That much is true. It could have happened, but it couldn't have happened as well. I lean more towards they didn't.
I don't think it's mere coincidence that Hagoromo happened to have an in-depth understanding of their actions and motives. And with the large amount of information that both Hashirama and Madara to have of the man and Shinju, I'm inclined to believe otherwise. With how much they've apparently grasped and the fact that Madara wouldn't have been able to read the final pieces of information on the tablet since he didn't acquire the Rinnegan until he was on the verge of dying from old age and unable to leave his cavern.
Madara became close to the power of the sage because of Kaguya's influence.
Kaguya had no part in Madara's climb up the ladder. Hagoromo was making a comparison between the two because they're both vying for the Tsukuyomi illusion and they have the desire to keep the bijuu's power consolidated in themselves alone.
Hashirama looks to as strong as he always was in his prime. While Hashirama had a natural healing ability, he's known for his Wood style techniques, a kekei genkai known specifically only to him.
It was never specified when Hashirama encountered Hagoromo. There is a theory circulating that he developed his Mokuton abilities thanks to to the Sage's gift. It certainly has many characteristics that are similar to the vitality and strength of chakra that Naruto is using because of his marking.
Madara, before he got the Rinnegan, had up to the Eternal Mangekyou, that any Uchiha can achieve by following the requirements, though rare. Furthermore, if we talk about Hashirama, every senju had a fundamental aspect of the sage (the body).
If we talk about Madara, then every Uchiha embodied a fundamental aspect of the sage (the eyes). While Sasuke is an Uchiha, Naruto is an Uzumaki, distant relatives to the Senju. How distant is up for debate.
Not every Senju and Uchiha holds the same potential in themselves. Some are more inherently gifted than others and they're usually the ones who best distinguish themselves from others (Itachi was stated to have the mentality and knowledge of a Kage when he was only 7; a trait that can't be stated to have been shared by anyone else of his age group or even his parents). Besides their understanding of things and latent potential, you can examine their growth rate to see how their aptitude stands next to the run-of-the-mill clan member. Hashirama and Madara were both prime examples of such folk; it may not be etched on a piece of paper that states in bold letters that they're the most gifted because of what's inside of them, but what are the odds that their transmigrant status didn't influence their growth rate and potential? The privileges given to them by their status are what likely drove them to reach a plateau that has been unreachable to anyone but Naruto and Sasuke (two other people that conveniently happen to be reincarnations of the same brothers)
From this, it sounds like you agree that Indra never crossed that line like Madara.
Not for the reasons that you suggested, no. I argued that every reincarnatation has their quirks that shape them in a different manner but with most of the same general goals and mentality.
So how is what looks like permanent Bijuu-Sage mode an inheritance, when it looks to amplify what Naruto already used before.
The Bijuu-Sage Mode, the one you're referring to, was a by-product of the Yang elemental chakra that Hagoromo gave. It surfaced in that unique fashion because of the conditions of being both a senjutsu user and jinchuuriki. Inheritances like these don't simply appear predictably just because they happen to come from the same source. The only guarantee is that the Yang chakra would pass from the Sage directly to Ashura and later those who he became part of, presumably without the muddying of its potency created through centuries of marriage and conception with other clans.
Plus, the chakra rods are ones that a person with the abilities of all nine Bijuu can use.
The rods seem to be made from the same material as the ones used by Madara and Obito. If so, they were created from Onmyoudon. Since many of the bijuu appear to have an affinity for an element, my first thoughts would be to say that they're a result of the bijuu. But I think that Onmyoudon classifies as a Yin-Yang elemental technique. Yin-Yang being the signature tool of anyone with the chakra of the Jubi and the Sage.
They would have freedom anyway, if it's just a piece, even Kurama, though his sitaution is unique as he was split into two entities. It looks more like the pieces would act as proxy to their original selves except Kurama, and that will get confusing once they are released from Kaguya. Another reason why I believe this situation is temporary.
The so called "proxies" are consensual beings that are living inside of Naruto and are helping him not only to defeat Madara, but bring Hagoromo's dreams of an amiable world together. If they were simply going to be extracted afterwards then the momentum behind the push to have Naruto eventually surpass Hashirama would lose its credibility.
Also, Kurama being released from Naruto's body wouldn't be giving up his company. Kurama can just live nearby the leaf village if he wants to. The most important aspect for the Bijuu's future is for humans to give up the Jinchuuriki system. That's what the build up is leading towards. Humans have to adjust to the Bijuu being sentient creatures, and have no need to be imprisoned in sealing tools or humans to keep under management. We were shown cooperation briefly with Gaara and Shukaku working together for a short while.
The bijuu's driving goal is to receive acceptance and have themselves branded as equals from humans. But from glancing back at all the instances of people and the bijuu being together, while they all detested the idea of being belittled and thought of as monsters, there were the exceptional cases like with Bee and Gyuki who developed a friendship. In said friendship, they had a mutual desire to cooperate with one another as best they could. But Gyuki never expressed any misgivings about living inside of a human. I daresay he might have enjoyed it actually. The idea of every bijuu wanting to separate themselves from humans seems to be a point of contention more for fans than the creatures themselves. Many of them were treated unjustly by humans and as a result the seeds of murderous hatred were planted. But now after having received compassion from their human counterparts, there isn't much in the way of disapproval for being bound to the humans that treated them with respect.
I think Kurama and the fragments will be helping him internally. And if a sign needs to be shown to prove this, then Naruto has already commented that he would need Kurama's power to match Sasuke. Not just his willingness to be seen as a friend, but his power too. The power to match Sasuke's Susanoo with a beast as equally strong.
So? Kaguya stopped war everywhere. Did that stop people from trying to fight later? Hagoromo (and his brother) stopped the Juubi's rampage, and spread Ninshuu to the people. Did that stop people from turning it into a weapon to be used in wars?
Kaguya perched herself on a throne and declared herself the main authority figure of the people. Hagoromo, while having thwarted the efforts of the Jubi and having successfully spread the word of Ninshuu, was hindered by the people's corrupted desire to turn chakra into a weapon. That's not what the premise of Naruto's approach to peace is and he's certainly not working under the same conditions that Hagoromo had to work with. He feels that by understanding each other's afflictions that they will become sympathetic and not allow their personal vendettas to dictate their actions. And considering how far Naruto's come with helping people to put their differences aside and work together, he seems poised to succeed where others before him failed.
This generation's time is limited, and people will forget in time. They will forget the tensions and humility experienced through their tribulations in war that forged the lessons learned, and someday, another will rise up to break the peace that people worked so hard and sacrificed to achieve. It's no one's fault. It's just human nature.
Not with the measures being taken to ensure that such tribulations don't happen again through alliances forged from shared experiences (as the Kages alluded to wanting to make some time back iirc) and history not being repeated once again as relations continue to strengthen and more people adopt Naruto's ideals. Looking at it from the writer's position, it would be ridiculous to say that Naruto won't succeed where his predecessors failed because of his status as protagonist and the story focusing on the accomplishment of his goals. Sure, you'll still have your Gatous and Zangeis to worry about, but if you take to heart what Gaara explained during his speech back during the beginning of the war, there is a much lesser chance of people resorting back to war after everything they've experienced.
Really, if Naruto kept all the Bijuu, give it time before someone or a group of people finds that wrong and acts on it.
True, but if it's a choice made of their own volition to remain inside of him, then that can't be held against Naruto. If you really believe that all of the bijuu will become independent of any human vessels and if they've made pacts with the shinobi world, then they have nothing to fear. I think this is where Gaara's speech once again expressed it clearly,they're all shinobi acting as a unified whole (an alliance which is likely to become the topic of discussion for maintaining even after the war). I think that all of the bijuu and the shinobi working together would ease any paranoid thoughts that some may have. If not, let them come to the negotiating table and voice their concerns.
Not really, chakra is the same as energy. If we don't properly gain and manage are energy by eating, and exercising, we lean more closer to death. While there are some cases that representations of people have appeared by leaving chakra, that's not to assume chakra is defining reason.
Whenever a replicate was made, the explanation was always that they left a portion of their chakra inside this seal or that person's body. Chakra is the building block of life. It's what give them strength and the means to survive. They're referring to chakra. There's no leeway in what these people meant when they said that it was because of their chakra that living clones of themselves emerged or remnants of a person's chakra was stored inside of a seal. If there were any other stated factors concerning the existence of these things then post the chapter and page number.
With Minato, it was a safety measure in case Kurama was close to completely taking over Naruto. Also, Edo Minato has to memories of that encounter. Kushina was a bit different, as her chakra was also placed in Naruto to be released at a certain time as well. Kushina was to help Naruto win the tug of war against Kurama, and tell him about what happened last night.
You're explaining the motive and method for these two having placed the chakra inside of Naruto, not what these fragments of their persons were comprised of. It's just unimportant details.
I don't think it was just his chakra, he put in Naruto, but also a jutsu.
Jutsu is chakra. That's what powers it. A jutsu is the effect caused by chakra when it's been molded by shape and nature manipulation. There isn't a mutual exclusion between the two (unless it's a taijutsu technique, in which case you're using physical energy instead of chakra).
Now, her apparition may act like a shadow clan, and once she disappeared, the original her in the afterlife gained that experience, though this is just speculation. These two examples are unique in of themselves, and were meant to act as a fail safe of sorts, when Naruto went through certain experiences. Naruto gave his and Kurama's chakra to everyone. I doubt we will have Naruto apparitions in everyone's inner world that he gave chakra too.
I don't understand this. It sounds like you're trying to find a justification for Kushina and Minato having knowledge of Naruto's personal experiences when it's already been attributed to the chakra they siphoned to his seal. A certain quote of Minato's strongly implies that they garner info using said chakra (#440, page 9).
The chakra Naruto gave to everyone was not his own and iirc, it left their bodies after Yang Kurama was extracted from him. There was no other substance being used to give them their power, no apparitions because neither Kurama or Naruto were trying to leave ghosts of their their personalities inside of the Alliance.
There's no hint that there was even a rivalry between the brothers like Ashura and Indra. They both had to work together to stop the Juubi and seal it. After that, nothing else was said about Hamura. Myth states that Hagoromo alone stopped the Juubi. Hamura is not even mentioned. We can only guess the circumstances of why.
Never said there was. You brought up the issue of Hamura's anonymity, I offered my thoughts for why he may not have been a prominent historical figure like his brother. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some tension brewing between them though. It might not have been as heated as the relationship Ashura had with Indra, but I would expect there to be some minor brotherly squabbling or competition between them, at least when they were younger. I can't prove a single word of it though so this is only conjecture.
However, Naruto and Sasuke already met Hagoromo, and that needed them both at near death for that to happen. Again, the requirements for meeting Hamura can and most likely are different,
How does Hamura appear if he isn't using the same time traveling methods as his brother? His time has long since past and it's notlikely that he would still be alive after so long. Unless his longevity is going to be justified because of lack of exposition on Kishi's end.
Edited by Atheck, 07 June 2014 - 08:37 PM.
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Didn't you see how she crushed Madara's heart? XD
Or maybe just Kabuto missed the wrong whole because his glasses were broken and his eye vision was a mess 
Or maybe he loves Sasuke to much that he wanted to take it straight to the heart 
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