687 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

For our sake i hope you drink it when the chap comes out lol XD

I was but the chapter didn't warrant for it, so yeah. To reply above, for now it will be Naruto and Sasuke but of course, it's the beginning. Hokages hasn't show up. To me, that's when the real showdown begins.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Yep, the fact is that Kishimoto handled it poorly, Naruto and Sakura views were that Sasuke was a victim and was being manipuled by Orochimaru although he was never manipuled by Orochimaru but in reality he ended up using Orochimaru.
Then comes the "comradship", Naruto and Sakura used their connections (Tsunade) to prevent Sasuke from being targeted as a nukenin despite being one.
Sai is punched in the face by Sakura because he calls him a traitor(which he was).
Sasuke's motives and the way he behaved was never from someome who was a victim or a prisoner of hatred like Naruto uses to claim.
Kishimoto showed Sasuke as a man that chose revenge over his friends and is willing to sacrifice everything in order to achieve it even his former friends and from Naruto's perspective he's the innocent, the victim that needs to be saved.
 

Tell me about it I don't blame Naruto or Sakura I blame Kishi for needed and wanting them to keep going after Sasuke when normal person would have gave up after knowing what he has done. More so in the Land or Iron,

 

 

Honestly? Death would be the best option- but I don't think Kishi will do it. He likes Sasuke waaaay too much. Death is followed by roaming the world--as long as he gives up this "Revenge" and "changing the world by force" bint he's on. The last option would be being in village- Chakra sealed ( forever.) no more Sharingan so he's not much of a threat- actually this should happen even if he goes a roaming. 

Whatever his path is he shouldn't have any kids. Like I said before, thanks to Kishimoto's whole "Brain disorder" excuse there shouldn't be any more Uchiha because they're liabilities. 
 

True the only Uchiha I have liked was Itachi at least he was the only sane one, but yeah we all know Kishi will make Sasuke live hell Darth Vader redemption was done better and he died for all that he did which is what is meant to happen and shows that you do something bad than bad things will happen to you. Which I think is very far but Kishi wants his boy toy to live and be happy.

 

I mean let me ask you this lets say an old evil took over Sakura's body and has no control over what she can do and she kills 100 people but its not her she is just possessed and is not in control of her body and what she is doing, now would you say Sakura is to blame or the thing that took over her body? 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Tell me about it I don't blame Naruto or Sakura I blame Kishi for needed and wanting them to keep going after Sasuke when normal person would have gave up after knowing what he has done. More so in the Land or Iron,

 

True the only Uchiha I have liked was Itachi at least he was the only sane one, but yeah we all know Kishi will make Sasuke live hell Darth Vader redemption was done better and he died for all that he did which is what is meant to happen and shows that you do something bad than bad things will happen to you. Which I think is very far but Kishi wants his boy toy to live and be happy.

 

I mean let me ask you this lets say an old evil took over Sakura's body and has no control over what she can do and she kills 100 people but its not her she is just possessed and is not in control of her body and what she is doing, now would you say Sakura is to blame or the thing that took over her body? 

Even Itachi had to be a LITTLE crazy to do what he did. Its been said that the line between genius and insanity is a thin one, and maybe he had a toe over that line. As much as I like Itachi even I have to admit that for as smart as he was, he was also awfully dumb. He thought that people were like chess pieces that he could move around, that he could guess what they would do and be right. 

He was sadly very wrong. 


That question reminds me of my moral and ethics class back in college...Like "If a person can't remember commiting a crime are they still guilty for it?" The answer to that is intent. You have to have intent and desire. 

If Sakura was forcefully taken over, Its obviously the thing that took over her body. Unless she WILLINGLY let it into her and allowed it to commit those acts its not her fault, she has no control. 

The same could be said for Sasuke, what if Orochimaru got his body? what if he did horrible horrible things with it? Its only Sasuke's fault if he allowed it to happen and didn't fight it. 


 

[Otaru]

You are the one who keeps bringing up that the world needs more forgiveness and that criminals are thrown away because society is too lazy to deal with them rather then acknowledging the fact that's society CAN'T deal with them. Obito has killed good people, Orochimaru has killed good people, Sasuke tried to kill good people-- no amount of forgiveness erases those deaths or keeps them from killing MORE people when things don't do their way- or hey, whenever they damn well please.

Well I talked about it because you used examples from our society.  
 

You used Sakura's "thank you" as an example of Obito being forgiven or on the path to forgiveness/redemption. Hence why she was brought up.

What do you want to say ? I don't understand. I didn't use Sakura. I just talked about what is written in the manga.
 

No, Kishimoto really hasn't made them work through hell to be redeemed. What hell did Nagato go through to be redeemed? he went through hell LONG before he was redeemed, going through hell caused him to need redemption, same with Gaara, Same with Obito.

You mistook what I said. I was talking about psychological turmoil that Naruto created in their soul before he TnJ them. Maybe I didn't use the good expression.
 

They suffered, went crazy, realized they were wrong and were redeemed though that sudden realization. <--- realization is Kishimoto's term for Redemption. Once you realize how wrong your actions were POOF forgiveness. In actuality its Realization---> apology---> Hard work,dedication, reparations---> forgiveness from the wronged party.

Well, you know, when you've come to realization it's a good start for redemption.
It's "poof" because those persons was manipulated by someone or something. Gaara went crazy because of the bijuu and because of his past. Nagato went crazy because of his past, he thought he was doing good, he wanted peace. Obito wanted to find Rin back, he wanted to erase suffering from the word. They had good intentions.
How could you curse eternally someone who was manipulated ? How could you curse eternally someone who had good intentions ? Even Danzo wanted to do good. In his own way. /// Once again, I'm analysing it through the manga's prism.
 

Gaara is really the only one who fits that model. He forgave others, he was forgiven. He worked for it even though they were the ones who caused him to need it in the first place. Also, Naruto isn't the redemption fairy. He's not the only party required for a person to be redeemed. There is the rest of the world that matters too. 

Gaara had time for it. Obito will not have it.
Just after Naruto/Gaara fight you might have said about him just the same as you said about Obito.
Naruto may not be the redemption fairy, but he is the hero, and Kishimoto gave him a "special power" and I think he mean to make him use it until the end. ^^
 
 

Sasuke looked because Naruto said something. 

You keep contradicting yourself "He's lying to himself about not caring!" which means he must care somewhere inside

Except that he doesn't.

To me, Sasuke his lying to himself. He is the one contradicting himself.
How would you explain the fact that Naruto teased him with a memory Sasuke himself gave him ? It was teasing. Pure and simple. Naruto knows that 'Sasuke' is still there. This scene serves only that.
 

Also, No Sasuke has not changed- his goal is still revenge the method he chooses is whats changed. Rather then just kill everyone, he's going to become Hokage and kill the people who get in his way.

Well wanting to become hokage and protect Konoha is a positive step IMO.
 

Yet again "not abandoning friends" is a great message...IF SASUKE WERE A FRIEND. He's not. He does not display any "Friend" characteristics. Its all Naruto projecting friendship ONTO Sasuke. There is no Team 7 <-- Sasuke--> Naruto in part II
its all Naruto---> Sasuke<--Team 7. Everyone is giving to him and they get nothing. Friendship is about feedback. It doesn't work when one person takes it all.

Well maybe in your conception, but Naruto, the hero, still consider Sasuke a friend.
This is what's that manga is about. Maybe you should read something else, because you will be disappointed when Sasuke will be redeemed. Because it will happen.
 

Our reality shapes THEIR reality. They are people, we are people. They should react in a way that most people would react because they're people. 

I don't have a problem with women being saved, it was an example. I've already defended Kakashi for saving Sakura and Naruto for doing so. Its a natural, HUMAN reaction that people have.   

Chasing after someone who point blank says to leave them alone-- and considering it acceptable is not a normal reaction. Its a sign of unhealthy behavior. We like to call it stalking in the real world.

It's not real world, and Naruto is supposed to be different and special. Of course he will do unbelievable things. That's how he is.
 

Kishimoto has already had people picking up Sasuke's pieces. He SHOULD have been declared a missing nin by Tsunade. Instead she was convinced to let is slide because its "Sasuke" and Naruto wanted it. Normal consequences did not apply to him because of favoritism. All the negative consequences he should have experienced have so far been negated because someone has decided not to act. Hence, magically picking up the pieces.

Sasuke is spoiled by Naruto and Team 7 ( its really  Kishimoto though.) Actually...He's a complete Gary Stu when you think about it. Over powered to the max, no matter what he does everyone loves him and he can do no wrong.

Sasuke Stu.

Sasuke was spared by Tsunade because she believed in Naruto. Also, sparing him does not count as "picking up the pieces". "picking up the pieces" is about his mind/soul. Sasuke is OP because Kishi needs an anti-hero to oppose Naruto and make him shine more. That's the only purpose of Sasuke.

Edited by Otaru, 18 June 2014 - 01:12 AM.

[FireFox]

I think I just realize why this chapter was called "Once Again" and the reason is simple :

Its because "Once Again" Sasuke doesn't give a kitten about them while Naruto does   .

[Otaru]

"Once again" is about Kaguya and her desire to bring back all chakra once again into one and only source.

Edited by Otaru, 18 June 2014 - 01:15 AM.

[Don-kun]

"Once again" is about Kaguya and her desire to bring back all chakra once again into one and only source.

This.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Well I talked about it because you used examples from our society.  
 
What do you want to say ? I don't understand. I didn't use Sakura. I just talked about what is written in the manga.
 
You mistook what I said. I was talking about psychological turmoil that Naruto created in their soul before he TnJ them. Maybe I didn't use the good expression.
 
Well, you know, when you've come to realization it's a good start for redemption.
It's "poof" because those persons was manipulated by someone or something. Gaara went crazy because of the bijuu and because of his past. Nagato went crazy because of his past, he thought he was doing good, he wanted peace. Obito wanted to find Rin back, he wanted to erase suffering from the word. They had good intentions.
How could you curse eternally someone who was manipulated ? How could you curse eternally someone who had good intentions ? Even Danzo wanted to do good. In his own way. /// Once again, I'm analysing it through the manga's prism.
 
Gaara had time for it. Obito will not have it.
Just after Naruto/Gaara fight you might have said about him just the same as you said about Obito.
Naruto may not be the redemption fairy, but he is the hero, and Kishimoto gave him a "special power" and I think he mean to make him use it until the end. ^^
 
 
To me, Sasuke his lying to himself. He is the one contradicting himself.
How would you explain the fact that Naruto teased him with a memory Sasuke himself gave him ? It was teasing. Pure and simple. Naruto knows that 'Sasuke' is still there. This scene serves only that.
 
Well wanting to become hokage and protect Konoha is a positive step IMO.
 
Well maybe in your conception, but Naruto, the hero, still consider Sasuke a friend.
This is what's that manga is about. Maybe you should read something else, because you will be disappointed when Sasuke will be redeemed. Because it will happen.
 
It's not real world, and Naruto is supposed to be different and special. Of course he will do unbelievable things. That's how he is.
 
Sasuke was spared by Tsunade because she believed in Naruto. Also, sparing him does not count as "picking up the pieces". "picking up the pieces" is about his mind/soul. Sasuke is OP because Kishi needs an anti-hero to oppose Naruto and make him shine more. That's the only purpose of Sasuke.

Just because a person is manipulated into doing something does not excuse them from their actions. They still had desire and intent to do it within the context of their knowledge. They knew what they were doing was wrong, knew it would hurt people and they did it anyways.

Gaara on the other hand DIDN'T know. He was a kid with a voice inside his head telling him to do things. He didn't have anyone to tell him otherwise. He was convinced his only purpose was to kill. 

Sasuke and Obito are just selfish individuals who only care about their own wants. Obito wanted Rin, he did whatever he had to to get her. 

Sasuke wanted revenge, he hurt whoever he had to to get it and he's not through yet. 

Its called accountability and again, its swept under the rug by Kishimoto to further his forgiveness theme. 
 

 

Obito is already redeemed by Naruto, Minato and Kakashi. Even Sakura thanked him because he saved Naruto.

A lot of persons are understanding why he has done all these bad things, and he has started to do things that atone what he has done before.

 

 

There is you using Sakura's thanks as a justification for Obito's redemption just like I said you did. 

If Sasuke is lying to himself, that means he cares about them--Completely contradictory to the "My body moved on its own" motif. I am not discussing this with you for the billionth time, Its cannon that at the moment in 680 he didn't care until its proven otherwise. 

I guess 85% of people should stop reading Naruto then since they'll be dissappointed by the ending if Hinata doesn't end up with Naruto them. Or the other people who don't like the redemption BS for that matter.

I can handle disappointment. Sasuke is not that important to me that he would ruin the rest of Naruto even by being there. 

SASUKE DOES NOT WANT TO PROTECT KONOHA. ( This is so important its not even funny.) That is not why he wants to be hokage. He wants to be hokage to keep another tragedy like the one that happened to his family from happening. It has nothing to do with Konoha. It has everything to do with Sasuke yet again. 

For someone who claims to not like Sasuke you do an awful lot of justifying his actions and looking at him with rose tinted glasses. 

"Picking up the pieces" means "Cleaning up someones mess." Naruto is cleaning up Sasuke's slop. There is no way around that fact. 

 

I think I just realize why this chapter was called "Once Again" and the reason is simple :

Its because "Once Again" Sasuke doesn't give a kitten about them while Naruto does   .

 

Some people can't take a joke...I liked it though   

 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 18 June 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[Don-kun]

Was that a joke? He made me lough but I though he was serious about it.

 

 

 

@Otaru

The only villain that has been redeemed is Nagato and Gaara both of them die protecting or giving their lives for others in other to make amen for the bad things they did, Obito, Madara, Kabuto and Orochimaru has not being redeemed yet and only Kabuto and Obito got TNJ by Naruto and Itachi.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Was that a joke? He made me lough but I though he was serious about it.

 

 

Cookie monster;  

Is a sure sign that someone is trying to be sarcastic or witty. ( while highlighting something of importance.) 

I've rarely seen it used for anything else other then mocking. 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 18 June 2014 - 02:02 AM.

[rocci]

I just want to say redemption equal death.

[tekopi]

I just want to say STAB equal death.

 

Fixed. Don't need to thank me.

[Don-kun]

@rocci

After seeing how Gaara and Nagato's redemption meant death for them am curios to know how Kishi will handle Sasuke redemption since it's hard for me to see his redemption being all rainbows and sunshine's.

Cookie monster;  

Is a sure sign that someone is trying to be sarcastic or witty. ( while highlighting something of importance.) 

I've rarely seen it used for anything else other then mocking. 

Thanks, I never knew or even care to ask why people used them.

[rocci]

 
Fixed. Don't need to thank me.

Thank you

@Don kun
I think sasuke will not back to konoha.
He will travel with team taka or become a sound kage.
Sasuke doesn't cross the line of no return so he will alive.
If he do what nagato & obito did then he will die at the end of this series.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

 

Thanks, I never knew or even care to ask why people used them.

 

You're very welcome. 

I had to learn the cookie monster secret the hard way   

 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 18 June 2014 - 02:35 AM.

[Hanabi]

new chapter new chapter new chapter new chapter 

DeviantArt

Edited by Hanabi, 18 June 2014 - 03:17 AM.

[Gojira]

Huzzah I look forward to several more chapters of Team 7 losing horribly until they eventually seal her.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, off to bed and hopefully wake up cool and new chapter.

[Dkey]

 

And forgiveness is the theme that we're talking about. Its the main moral in Shippuden at this point. The way that he's constructed that theme is poor. The way he's portrayed it is poor. its badly developed and because of that it sends a bad message. He could have pulled off a great message about forgiveness but instead he turned it into some cheap gimmick. Thats the problem. 

More importantly you've completely missed the point. You said that authors are judged on quality not the message they send. You were wrong. Everything they write is subject to being judged and it is. 

People judge Kishimoto because he does some things EXTREMELY well and then in the next moment he does something absolutely awful He's like a Yo-yo when it comes to writing. He gets your hopes up and then smacks you in the face with them. 
 

 

? Death would be the best option- but I don't think Kishi will do it. He likes Sasuke waaaay too much. Death is followed by roaming the world--as long as he gives up this "Revenge" and "changing the world by force" bint he's on. The last option would be being in village- Chakra sealed ( forever.) no more Sharingan so he's not much of a threat- actually this should happen even if he goes a roaming. 

Whatever his path is he shouldn't have any kids. Like I said before, thanks to Kishimoto's whole "Brain disorder" excuse there shouldn't be any more Uchiha because they're liabilities. 

 

 

You are the one who keeps bringing up that the world needs more forgiveness and that criminals are thrown away because society is too lazy to deal with them rather then acknowledging the fact that's society CAN'T deal with them. Obito has killed good people, Orochimaru has killed good people, Sasuke tried to kill good people-- no amount of forgiveness erases those deaths or keeps them from killing MORE people when things don't do their way- or hey, whenever they damn well please. 

You don't put mass murderers near good people because they kill them. Simple logic. 

You used Sakura's "thank you" as an example of Obito being forgiven or on the path to forgiveness/redemption. Hence why she was brought up.

No, Kishimoto really hasn't made them work through hell to be redeemed. What hell did Nagato go through to be redeemed? he went through hell LONG before he was redeemed, going through hell caused him to need redemption, same with Gaara, Same with Obito. 

They suffered, went crazy, realized they were wrong and were redeemed though that sudden realization. <--- realization is Kishimoto's term for Redemption. Once you realize how wrong your actions were POOF forgiveness. In actuality its Realization---> apology---> Hard work,dedication, reparations---> forgiveness from the wronged party.


Gaara is really the only one who fits that model. He forgave others, he was forgiven. He worked for it even though they were the ones who caused him to need it in the first place. Also, Naruto isn't the redemption fairy. He's not the only party required for a person to be redeemed. There is the rest of the world that matters too. 

 

Sasuke looked because Naruto said something. 

You keep contradicting yourself "He's lying to himself about not caring!" which means he must care somewhere inside

Except that he doesn't.
 

Also, No Sasuke has not changed- his goal is still revenge the method he chooses is whats changed. Rather then just kill everyone, he's going to become Hokage and kill the people who get in his way.

Nothings changed. He was going to kill Naruto because he was in the way in Part 1 and in part 2. He tried to kill Karin for being in the way, And Sakura for being in the way. Whats changed? absolutely nothing. 

Yet again "not abandoning friends" is a great message...IF SASUKE WERE A FRIEND. He's not. He does not display any "Friend" characteristics. Its all Naruto projecting friendship ONTO Sasuke. There is no Team 7 <-- Sasuke--> Naruto in part II
its all Naruto---> Sasuke<--Team 7. Everyone is giving to him and they get nothing. Friendship is about feedback. It doesn't work when one person takes it all. 

#1 rule of writing- show, don't tell. Kishi has SHOWN us that Sasuke is not a friend. 

 

 

Our reality shapes THEIR reality. They are people, we are people. They should react in a way that most people would react because they're people. 

I don't have a problem with women being saved, it was an example. I've already defended Kakashi for saving Sakura and Naruto for doing so. Its a natural, HUMAN reaction that people have.   

Chasing after someone who point blank says to leave them alone-- and considering it acceptable is not a normal reaction. Its a sign of unhealthy behavior. We like to call it stalking in the real world. 

Kishimoto has already had people picking up Sasuke's pieces. He SHOULD have been declared a missing nin by Tsunade. Instead she was convinced to let is slide because its "Sasuke" and Naruto wanted it. Normal consequences did not apply to him because of favoritism. All the negative consequences he should have experienced have so far been negated because someone has decided not to act. Hence, magically picking up the pieces.

 

Completely true. Absolutely all of it. Especially the special treatment via Tsunade and Sakura defending him.

Sasuke is spoiled by Naruto and Team 7 ( its really  Kishimoto though.) Actually...He's a complete Gary Stu when you think about it. Over powered to the max, no matter what he does everyone loves him and he can do no wrong.

Sasuke Stu. 

 

 

No the theme of Shippuden is to get Sasuke back. To save him from whatever dark corner he is.

 

People judge authors it's true but the way they are judging him is wrong. You are applying real world perspective to a world which has a different perspective on life.

 

Those mass murderers that you keep talking about don't exist the way you understand them in the Narutoverse. Obito started hating everything because of Rin's death. From Rin's death all the way to Naruto's fight he was bad. After he was changed by Naruto Obito isn't acting like a mass murderer again. The difference is that in the real world even if Obito stopped killing he would still be labeled a mass murderer. But for him killing isn't some form of addiction. In Kishi's world there are very few who are like this. And the way they are portrayed is still associated with the idea of friendship. Jugo's mass murderer urges are kept in check first by Kimimaro and afterwards Sasuke. Ok you can argue that Sasuke and Jugo aren't friends but in Jugo's perceptive they are.

 

Thing is if one wants to judge an author he needs to take into account more elements of the story not judge everything based on one set of values. A high school colleague of mine used to do this judging literature characters based on psychology. Thing is characters don't act the way their psychology teaches them but based on what the author wants.

[Nostradamus]

New Chapter - http://www.narusaku....showtopic=13792