19964 replies to this topic

[luffyq1]

But I don't think Kishi is the only person who's faced with disappointing people. All writers/mangakas/artists/whatever in general will be criticized harshly by some people, and there really isn't anything you can do about that . The only thing they can do is finish their story or finish their work of art the way they want to, because it's theirs.

And well I wouldn't really label it as "NH fandom" because there were a few NHers that didn't see it that way. Personally, I just hate it when people judge a fan based on the fandom/fandom is judged based on a fan so....

True enough. But still, I would at least feel something inside of me if one of my fictional entities were involved in any way, shape or form of a death. Did Kishi at least feel something years ago during that sandbox death incident? Did he at least feel something when that kid commited suicide? No blame is to be put on Kishi at all, but he still must've felt something, right?

Well the majority of the NH fandom that were claming canon outweighted my viewing of the other side that were not claiming canon. It's hard to judge a fandom based on one person, but it's not so hard to judge it based on a lot of people.

Edited by luffyq1, 16 December 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[Weltall]

Weltall, and everyone else, personal attacks will not be tolerated in this thread or any other on this site. Please keep your comments focused on the manga and your posts respectful of other members. This thread is being closely monitored by the mods.

Euh ok sure thing then why do movies trailers and suicide rates or even popularity allowed in this thread ? For me to focus on these things I need the other part not ignoring posts and changing the debate the dude has no answers. I like a good debate it's not a debate since a long time just a long monologue. May as well ban me if this is what it has become.

Edited by Weltall, 16 December 2012 - 07:29 AM.

[narulsaku]

i told ya all. to becare ful with your post. and i even asked you guys to be co now thats it. now mods see this.so just focous on the topic and manga. its all for fun guys dont be that serious.

[Canadian_DJ]

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.

1. The last time I checked, NaruSaku was twice as popular as NaruHina in Japan.

2. Even if showing NH and SS in the trailers was a shout-out to SS and NH's popularity with his fans, that doesn't mean he's gunning for canon with them - KakaIru got a shout-out in his manga as well, and that's definitely not going to become canon.

3. The one-shot cover doesn't show me anything either, because again, it didn't portray NH or SS in a good way. Naruto clearly wants to get away from AU Hinata - there's zero attraction on his part there despite the fact that she is literally grinding her boob into his arm. Sakura being all cow-eyed and gushing over AU Sasuke would appear pro-SS at first glance, but then what does that say about the sincerity of Sakura's love for Sasuke (since this AU Sasuke acts completely differently) and we all know how it turned out in the movie (regarding the sincerity of Sasuke's feeling for Sakura).

4. The content of the movie trumps the content of the trailers, and there's no debating that the movie did not portray NH and SS in any sort of positive light;

Hinata was jealous of Sakura's relationship with Naruto practically the entire time, scared Naruto off, and Naruto showed zero interest in her (not even Menma was shown to have any interest in her, given Minato and Kushina's question/teasing about Menma's/Naruto's feelings for Sakura).

Sakura acted like a fan girl again, blushing and and making cow eyes over this person that looks like Sasuke, but acts nothing like him. If it was meant to be portrayed as serious love on her part, I would have thought her reaction to Sasuke would have been more like Naruto's reaction to his parents - you know, happiness to the point of almost crying? And then Sasuke shows that even in this AU world, he feels nothing more for Sakura romantically than any of his other fan girls, and Sakura is over it soon enough, focusing then on Naruto and her absent parents.

5. The 2 NS comments chosen for the movie, and the lack of any other pairing related comments, also goes to show this movie wasn't about NH or SS at all.

If Kishi was gunning for NH and SS just because they were popular, then logically, he would have made the movie focus on those two relationships after the family bonds, not Naruto and Sakura's (or, conversely, he could have simply left out the romantic hints with NaruSaku - but he didn't).

As for the rest of the arguments regarding the manga, I continue to stand by that NaruSaku has the most support to be canon in the manga overall. Could Kishi change his mind and make NH or SS canon? Of course, its his story and he can do whatever he wants. Does NH have a lot of focus recently? Yes. But again, that doesn't make it the strongest contender when considering all of the evidence in the manga overall. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

NH is certainly possible, as is SS, but the pairings are far from cemented as of yet, and the pairing wars are far from over. Unless someone honestly thinks Kishi is just going to brush Naruto's feelings for Sakura under the rug and forget about them completely and have Naruto fall for Hinata off panel, to be covered in flashbacks?

Woot! Ladies and gentlemen give this young lady a round of applause for this SPECTACULAR post, man true words of justice right there, i agree ALL the way

[Smiter]

Euh ok sure thing then why do movies trailers and suicide rates or even popularity allowed in this thread ? For me to focus on these things I need the other part not ignoring posts and changing the debate the dude has no answers. I like a good debate it's not a debate since a long time just a long monologue. May as well ban me if this is what it has become.

Debating is fine, but personal attacks are not. If there is a post that you disagree with, then you can explain why you disagree with the post as long as you do not insult the poster.

We encourage good, clean, debates and we like to see all sort of viewpoints from all fandoms.

Good debate =/= slanging match.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

If he chooses to leave it open ended because of fandoms then he really, really needs to not write anymore, not only would that affect naruto but it would affect other animes as well, if people just need to over react to get there way, then no anime will be safe in the future and people writing stories with there own outcome would be gone. I don't want fans to make the endings for anime/manga I want the authors to be the one to end it how they wan't. So I HOPE he does not leave it open ended just because he is scared of how the fans will react.

He didnt care about what the fandoms think and he demonstrated it a lot of times on shounen jump fest, the first one was when the people asked him why hinata was not the main character and he raged a bit.

Second NH is not popular on Japan, suicides happen all the time even on Japan which have the highest rate, some guy comitted suicide after he could not finish Diablo, did blizzard stopped making it?

Open endings = cowardice and indecision.

For me it's NS because of the development of both Naruto and Sakura towards it.
If naruto and hinata had the same development we would be talking about Open endings.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 December 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[Canadian_DJ]

Hey guys i know this is kinda off topic but whatever happened to ciardha? i really enjoyed reading her posts back in my lurker days lol.

Edited by Canadian_DJ, 16 December 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[narulsaku]

welcome back to the debate emily . great post. lookin forward for more. CHIRDHA. nope got no information. everyone will return with the holidays.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

ciardha is busy i pmed her a 3 weeks ago.

[Chucky-kun]

He didnt care about what the fandoms think and he demonstrated it a lot of times on shounen jump fest, the first one was when the people asked him why hinata was not the main character and he raged a bit.

Second NH is not popular on Japan, suicides happen all the time even on Japan which have the highest rate, some guy comitted suicide after he could not finish Diablo, did blizzard stopped making it?

Open endings = cowardice and indecision.

For me it's NS because of the development of both Naruto and Sakura towards it.
If naruto and hinata had the same development we would be talking about Open endings.

I think he does care about the fandoms but doesn't care about the demands because he knows its his own manga.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I think he does care about the fandoms but doesn't care about the demands because he knows its his own manga.

care about the fandom = care about their demands.

the fandom that he hear is the one who does not care about pairings.
( who demands plot stuff and explanations) nothing related to NS, NH and SS, NI, ST, SK and etc...

i was talking specifically about shippers.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 December 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[swagosaurus]

What's with all the hate, man? This is the NaruSaku DEBATE thread. Debating isn't one sided. It'd get pretty stale, and it has gotten pretty stale, if we just talked about how great this pairing is. Sometimes, I swear I'm the only one who sees the logic in Luffy's posts. He brings up good points; especially regarding the fandom.

Some of us need to get off the high horse, and look at what could possibly happen. It would make it much easier, and less mortifying, in the case that NS doesn't happen, which there's still the good chance that it won't.

H&E, I am dissapoint.

Edited by swagosaurus, 16 December 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[luffyq1]

So I would like to list the possible scenarios where I personally (personally is the keyword, folks) believe that if NS where to happen because of these reasons I would deem them unacceptable.

1) Sakura comes to a realization that it was Naruto who she loved all along? No. Just no. We all can agree that the manga is already coming towards an end, and if that was the case then she still wouldn't have feelings for Sasuke as evident during the whole summit fiasco. And yes, chapter 540 is also an additional confirmation that she still loves the man. And please don't come up with ridiculous interpretations saying that she was "thinking of Naruto first". It was Sasuke and Sasuke alone in that scene. The context and the conversation was pretty telling. Oh, and I understand well that she isn't happy about it, so there's no need to mention that if anyone is going to reply to this. Also, it seems like that forced cliche route of coming to a realization was already dead in Sakura's painful confession.

2) Naruto confesses to Sakura? No. Just no. I hear this overused argument being used to drive NS home. Naruto became a hero right infront of her eyes, and she still couldn't bring herself to love the man. Yes, I understand that her care for Naruto is deep, but she still loves Sasuke. If actions didn't convice her that Naruto is truly the better man for her, why would anyone think words would do? Sasuke's actions should have made it clear that Naruto is Mr. Right for her, but it didn't. She still holds onto that one-sided love of hers. And though she tried to forcefully let go of that romantic attachment, she failed in doing so. The heart wants what the heart wants. Period.

3) Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are slowly but surely fading away. NS is right around the corner? No. Just no. I find this argument to be the most problematic, especially to the realistic pairing that is NS. How in the world do people favor this? After more than 600 chapters her shallow love for Sasuke finally goes away? Are you kidding me?! It took gossip of Sasuke's infamous reputation, 3 murder attempts, and physical & emtional stress to finally put the nail in the coffin for SS? Am I do only one that finds that down right hilarious? It took that much push for Sakura to let go of her feelings for Sasuke. Man, Sakura sure is stubborn.

As much as you guys brag about how realistic NS is, the reasoning for it to become canon doesn't seem to suit it, especially Sakura's stubborn feelings for Sasuke. Considering all the things that Naruto has done for her, her standards are too high, and that is Kishi's mistake. Only a God would suit Sakura now. LOL

Oh, and if anyone does plan on replying to this please make sure you leave out the "oh luffyq's argument is so weak", "luffyq1 is adding nothing to this redundant discussion", "luffyq1 fails to make any points." , "luffyq1 this, luffyq1 that". It was funny at first, guys. Now it's dried up.

P.S. thank you Swagosaurus

Edited by luffyq1, 16 December 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[swagosaurus]

I just read the wikipedia article on Naruto; apparently, Kishi said there's at least one and a half years left (as of July 2012), and even admitted it would probably take longer than that.

There's certainly tons of time for development with that. Personally, I see Kishi resolving at the very least Hinata's feelings for Naruto this arc. She's not part of the Team 7 triangle.

Perhaps he could also resolve Sakura's feelings as well. 540 is SasuSaku yes, but it's the first time, besides way back in part 1 with the Curse Seal, we see Sakura thinking of Sasuke in a negative light. But that's all said and done.

If kishi were smart, he would start to gradually, gradually phase Sakura out of her love for Sasuke. That's the only way I can see it happening.

Edited by swagosaurus, 16 December 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[luffyq1]

I just read the wikipedia article on Naruto; apparently, Kishi said there's at least one and a half years left (as of July 2012), and even admitted it would probably take longer than that.

There's certainly tons of time for development with that. Personally, I see Kishi resolving at the very least Hinata's feelings for Naruto this arc. She's not part of the Team 7 triangle.

Perhaps he could also resolve Sakura's feelings as well. 540 is SasuSaku yes, but it's the first time, besides way back in part 1 with the Curse Seal, we see Sakura thinking of Sasuke in a negative light. But that's all said and done.

If kishi were smart, he would start to gradually, gradually phase Sakura out of her love for Sasuke. That's the only way I can see it happening.

Dat bolded right there, man. It hit home! It's best to get Hinata out of the way and move on to the main course, that of course being team 7 love triangle like you've stated.

Edited by luffyq1, 16 December 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[PhenixElite]

So I would like to list the possible scenarios where I personally (personally is the keyword, folks) believe that if NS where to happen because of these reasons I would deem them unacceptable.

1) Sakura comes to a realization that it was Naruto who she loved all along? No. Just no. We all can agree that the manga is already coming towards an end, and if that was the case then she still wouldn't have feelings for Sasuke as evident during the whole summit fiasco. And yes, chapter 540 is also an additional confirmation that she still loves the man. And please don't come up with ridiculous interpretations saying that she was "thinking of Naruto first". It was Sasuke and Sasuke alone in that scene. The context and the conversation was pretty telling. Oh, and I understand well that she isn't happy about it, so there's no need to mention that if anyone is going to reply to this. Also, it seems like that forced cliche route of coming to a realization was already dead in Sakura's painful confession.

2) Naruto confesses to Sakura? No. Just no. I hear this overused argument being used to drive NS home. Naruto became a hero right infront of her eyes, and she still couldn't bring herself to love the man. Yes, I understand that her care for Naruto is deep, but she still loves Sasuke. If actions didn't convice her that Naruto is truly the better man for her, why would anyone think words would do? Sasuke's actions should have made it clear that Naruto is Mr. Right for her, but it didn't. She still holds onto that one-sided love of hers. And though she tried to forcefully let go of that romantic attachment, she failed in doing so. The heart wants what the heart wants. Period.

3) Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are slowly but surely fading away. NS is right around the corner? No. Just no. I find this argument to be the most problematic, especially to the realistic pairing that is NS. How in the world do people favor this? After more than 600 chapters her shallow love for Sasuke finally goes away? Are you kidding me?! It took gossip of Sasuke's infamous reputation, 3 murder attempts, and physical & emtional stress to finally put the nail in the coffin for SS? Am I do only one that finds that down right hilarious? It took that much push for Sakura to let go of her feelings for Sasuke. Man, Sakura sure is stubborn.

As much as you guys brag about how realistic NS is, the reasoning for it to become canon doesn't seem to suit it, especially Sakura's stubborn feelings for Sasuke. Considering all the things that Naruto has done for her, her standards are too high, and that is Kishi's mistake. Only a God would suit Sakura now. LOL

Oh, and if anyone does plan on replying to this please make sure you leave out the "oh luffyq's argument is so weak", "luffyq1 is adding nothing to this redundant discussion", "luffyq1 fails to make any points." , "luffyq1 this, luffyq1 that". It was funny at first, guys. Now it's dried up.

P.S. thank you Swagosaurus

[TouKen4Life3g]

Hey Luffyq1, mind if I ask what is your idea of making NS canon. This is nowhere near the idea of bashing you, like I would ever do that, but it will be nice share some insight. I don't care if it's negative or whatever, just share your thoughts if you don't mind.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

So I would like to list the possible scenarios where I personally (personally is the keyword, folks) believe that if NS where to happen because of these reasons I would deem them unacceptable.

1) Sakura comes to a realization that it was Naruto who she loved all along? No. Just no. We all can agree that the manga is already coming towards an end, and if that was the case then she still wouldn't have feelings for Sasuke as evident during the whole summit fiasco. And yes, chapter 540 is also an additional confirmation that she still loves the man. And please don't come up with ridiculous interpretations saying that she was "thinking of Naruto first". It was Sasuke and Sasuke alone in that scene. The context and the conversation was pretty telling. Oh, and I understand well that she isn't happy about it, so there's no need to mention that if anyone is going to reply to this. Also, it seems like that forced cliche route of coming to a realization was already dead in Sakura's painful confession.

2) Naruto confesses to Sakura? No. Just no. I hear this overused argument being used to drive NS home. Naruto became a hero right infront of her eyes, and she still couldn't bring herself to love the man. Yes, I understand that her care for Naruto is deep, but she still loves Sasuke. If actions didn't convice her that Naruto is truly the better man for her, why would anyone think words would do? Sasuke's actions should have made it clear that Naruto is Mr. Right for her, but it didn't. She still holds onto that one-sided love of hers. And though she tried to forcefully let go of that romantic attachment, she failed in doing so. The heart wants what the heart wants. Period.

3) Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are slowly but surely fading away. NS is right around the corner? No. Just no. I find this argument to be the most problematic, especially to the realistic pairing that is NS. How in the world do people favor this? After more than 600 chapters her shallow love for Sasuke finally goes away? Are you kidding me?! It took gossip of Sasuke's infamous reputation, 3 murder attempts, and physical & emtional stress to finally put the nail in the coffin for SS? Am I do only one that finds that down right hilarious? It took that much push for Sakura to let go of her feelings for Sasuke. Man, Sakura sure is stubborn.

As much as you guys brag about how realistic NS is, the reasoning for it to become canon doesn't seem to suit it, especially Sakura's stubborn feelings for Sasuke. Considering all the things that Naruto has done for her, her standards are too high, and that is Kishi's mistake. Only a God would suit Sakura now. LOL

Oh, and if anyone does plan on replying to this please make sure you leave out the "oh luffyq's argument is so weak", "luffyq1 is adding nothing to this redundant discussion", "luffyq1 fails to make any points." , "luffyq1 this, luffyq1 that". It was funny at first, guys. Now it's dried up.

P.S. thank you Swagosaurus

@swagossaurus he indeed has good points but sometime he forgot to read the other side of the coin and says that we are wrong just because we are NS fans ad hominem.
I have nothing against him but i just want him to at least counter our arguments.

lets start.

1->

1) Sakura comes to a realization that it was Naruto who she loved all along? No. Just no. We all can agree that the manga is already coming towards an end, and if that was the case then she still wouldn't have feelings for Sasuke as evident during the whole summit fiasco. And yes, chapter 540 is also an additional confirmation that she still loves the man. And please don't come up with ridiculous interpretations saying that she was "thinking of Naruto first". It was Sasuke and Sasuke alone in that scene. The context and the conversation was pretty telling. Oh, and I understand well that she isn't happy about it, so there's no need to mention that if anyone is going to reply to this. Also, it seems like that forced cliche route of coming to a realization was already dead in Sakura's painful confession.

Agree with you on this part, first of all you dont accept that she sees it on a bad light now, it's not interpretation, that panel of him was a sasuke surrounded by dark flames which were removed on the anime's version.
it's to show him that he's evil yes she loves him but not on a good way, showing that this SS relationship it's not a good one.
This is not interpretation is a fact.

2->

2) Naruto confesses to Sakura? No. Just no. I hear this overused argument being used to drive NS home. Naruto became a hero right infront of her eyes, and she still couldn't bring herself to love the man. Yes, I understand that her care for Naruto is deep, but she still loves Sasuke. If actions didn't convice her that Naruto is truly the better man for her, why would anyone think words would do? Sasuke's actions should have made it clear that Naruto is Mr. Right for her, but it didn't. She still holds onto that one-sided love of hers. And though she tried to forcefully let go of that romantic attachment, she failed in doing so. The heart wants what the heart wants. Period.

Well this is really interesting, why naruto cannot confess to Sakura? the promise that was holding this was already lifted even obito was going to confess to rin, we maybe have a similar scene but without any interruptions, you're making assumptions like i'm doing now, i'm not kishimoto and neither you to have the right say that naruto will not confess.
Even if NH to be canon naruto will have to confess to sakura and the problem is Sakura will accept Naruto's confession for Naruto's sake, maybe this can be a bad because she probably accept because she does not want to hurt his feelings instead of accepting because she loves him.
It's complicated.


3->

3) Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are slowly but surely fading away. NS is right around the corner? No. Just no. I find this argument to be the most problematic, especially to the realistic pairing that is NS. How in the world do people favor this? After more than 600 chapters her shallow love for Sasuke finally goes away? Are you kidding me?! It took gossip of Sasuke's infamous reputation, 3 murder attempts, and physical & emtional stress to finally put the nail in the coffin for SS? Am I do only one that finds that down right hilarious? It took that much push for Sakura to let go of her feelings for Sasuke. Man, Sakura sure is stubborn.

The "fading away" it got a different interpretation it's says not strong as before to force her to abandon the village to go with him, and neither join his side, it's not the same as part 1 when she undoubtly wanted to join him(even leaving naruto behind), if she really loves sasuke above everything she would have killed karin, Sasuke see that sakura could not do this and tried to kill sakura.
This is the main reason for what i didnt see NS with chances of becoming canon on part 1.
But this not means that NS is right around the corner it means that she cannot be with sasuke in the end but does not mean that she has to be with naruto just because of it.
She has feelings for Naruto it's a fact, if she wanted to make that confession for Naruto was because she thought that could really love him one day this is enough proof.
If not she could just tell the truth to Naruto.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 December 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[luffyq1]

Hey Luffyq1, mind if I ask what is your idea of making NS canon. This is nowhere near the idea of bashing you, like I would ever do that, but it will be nice share some insight. I don't care if it's negative or whatever, just share your thoughts if you don't mind.

I can't possibly come up with any acceptable scenario where NS becomes canon. Kishi has made Sakura's love for Sasuke so stubborn that any scenario for NS to become canon are closing one after another. That is Kishi's flaw in the romance subplot. If NS were to become canon it will be hard for me to swallow it. She's a Goddess, and only a God would be befitting to her high standards now. That is the price of keeping the tension on high in the romance of this story.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I can't possibly come up with any acceptable scenario where NS becomes canon. Kishi has made Sakura's love for Sasuke so stubborn that any scenario for NS to become canon are closing one after another. That is Kishi's flaw in the romance subplot. If NS were to become canon it will be hard for me to swallow it. She's a Goddess, and only a God would be befitting to her high standards now. That is the price of keeping the tension on high in the romance of this story.

Then i cant come with with any acceptable scenario where NH becomes canon. Kishi has made Hinata's love for Naruto so stubborn that any scenario for NH to become canon are closing one after another. That is Kishi's flaw in the romance subplot. If NH were to become canon it will be hard for me to swallow it. She's a Goddess, and only a God would be befitting to her high standards now. That is the price of keeping the tension on high in the romance of this story.

Naruto will meet Sasuke again on this arc and Sakura will be there, after this meeting you tell me if you cant see any scenario coming up, it's too early yet, Sakura will have a closure about sasuke and Naruto too after obito's speech like ( someome of you like will do the same as we are doing now).

I would tell if that SS could have chances if Sasuke come back to konoha after the war arc, for some reason but it's not Sasuke will continue madara's plan, and he will kill orochimaru (again) when he's no longer needed.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 December 2012 - 03:20 PM.