687 replies to this topic

[Don-kun]

That right there is the crux of it all. 

Sasuke should have just been left alone like he wanted. Instead Naruto and Sakura just keep harassing him with things he obviously doesn't want. Thats not being a good friend, its being annoying. 

Naruto needs to learn to leave people alone when they want to be left alone, Sakura needs to learn to leave people alone who don't want to be bothered, and Sasuke just needs to get over himself. 

Like I told Dark before, what Naruto doing is something a friend will do for another friend the problem is that Kishi went way to far too damn far; he made Sasuke get away with too many things but them you have Naruto always trying to correct others with his savior personality and telling other or wrong they are but when it comes to Sasuke he becomes a wimp and he plays blind eye to what Sasuke does and Sakura he makes her a depressed freak who becomes very submissive and weak around Sasuke.

 

Saving a friend is something Natural in many story but in Kishi's story saving a friend is so freaking wrong because it strip the heroes from their personality takes away their backbone, their dignity, makes them obsessive, hypocrites and worst the person they are trying to save doesn't gave a sh** about them and feels no regret or remorse for what they did, this is how terrible Kishi is as an Author.

 

 

 

Sorry about the double post.

Edited by Don-kun, 18 June 2014 - 01:03 AM.

[Dkey]

If people are going to judge Stephanie Meyer for writing the curse known as Twlight- for giving young girls false and dangerous expectations for relationships or any other writer on the face of the planet for making bad stories with bad relationships Kishimoto can be held to the same standards. 

Also, a teacher is not the only person who teaches for a living. We learn from books, from TV shows, from our parents, from everything around us. By knowing young kids read his comic Kishimoto and the characters he creates become role models and tools of teaching. 
 
 

I try, I really do. 
 

Yeah but at the end of the day stephanie meyers or any author will be judged based on the quality of his work and not what message is he sending towards his readers.
Fine lets say that kishis job is to teach he isnt teaching that its okay to be a jerk and if you show remotse then people will forgive.
Naruto is the role model that kishi is tailoring and not sasuke despite kishis sympathy for sasuke and until now kishi showed that naruto is on the right path while sasuke isnt. Not sure what conclussions he will showcase or even show some resolution.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Like I tell Dark before, what Naruto doing is something a friend will do for another friend the problem is that Kishi went way to far too damn far; he made Sasuke get away with too many things but them you have Naruto always trying to correct others with his savior personality and telling other or wrong they are but when it comes to Sasuke he becomes a wimp and he plays blind eye to what Sasuke does and Sakura he makes her a depressed freak who becomes very submissive and weak around Sasuke.

 

Saving a friend is something Natural in many story but in Kishi's story saving a friend is so freaking wrong because it strip the heroes from their personality takes away they backbone, their dignity, makes them obsessive, hypocrites and worst the person they are trying to save doesn't gave a sh** about them and feels no regret or remorse for what they did, this is how terrible Kishi is as an Author.

 

 

 

Sorry about the double post.

Agree to disagree. 

If someone says "leave me alone" repeatedly you should LEAVE THEM ALONE. If someone gets VIOLENT and tells you to leave them alone, that they want nothing to do you with you- you leave them alone.

it doesn't matter if their your "Friend" or not. Once they decide they want to be left alone, they should be left alone to deal with themselves.

I can let the first time Naruto went after Sasuke slide, but everything after that? he's harassing him. He knows Sasuke doesn't want to be messed with but he keeps doing it. 

If you or I repeatedly tell someone to leave us alone and they don't--its harassment. 
 

Yeah but at the end of the day stephanie meyers or any author will be judged based on the quality of his work and not what message is he sending towards his readers.
Fine lets say that kishis job is to teach he isnt teaching that its okay to be a jerk and if you show remotse then people will forgive.
Naruto is the role model that kishi is tailoring and not sasuke despite kishis sympathy for sasuke and until now kishi showed that naruto is on the right path while sasuke isnt. Not sure what conclussions he will showcase or even show some resolution.

 

Uh...that statement is false. Shakespeare wasn't just judged by the quality of his work but the content and the message within that content. Literary scholars constantly pick messages and themes from literature to pick apart and relay to life as we know it. 

Othello is about the dangers of jealousy, spite and revenge- they destroy everything they touch. THAT is a good moral. Hamlet was about how revenge digs a double grave ( actually it killed a lot more people then that...) for the hero and for the villain while leaving everyone touched by it scarred. True enough, good moral. 

Also, Kishi is being judged RIGHT NOW ( and not just by me.)  but by everyone reading Naruto  This entire forum is us Judging his writing- not just on the quality but the content. (The quality is COMPRISED of content you see.) Every time someone complains about him being sexist is him being judged for the quality of his work.  If he's being sexist which is viewed as a bad characteristic he's giving a bad message to readers, right?

If Sasuke acts like he does, and gets forgiven without asking for it, without making amends, without recognizing the gravity of his actions that would be Kishimoto teaching people his behavior is acceptable. So far that's whats happening so I say again; teaching kids that its okay to act the way that Sasuke does because someone is going to pick up the pieces for them and magically make things better is not a good moral. 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 17 June 2014 - 10:56 PM.

[Don-kun]

Agree to disagree. 

If someone says "leave me alone" repeatedly you should LEAVE THEM ALONE. If someone gets VIOLENT and tells you to leave them alone, that they want nothing to do you with you- you leave them alone.

it doesn't matter if their your "Friend" or not. Once they decide they want to be left alone, they should be left alone to deal with themselves.

I can let the first time Naruto went after Sasuke slide, but everything after that? he's harassing him. He knows Sasuke doesn't want to be messed with but he keeps doing it. 
 

Well you see the thing is that basing on Kishi's writing style I agree with you. Like I said is Natural for a friend to try and save their friend, we have Nico Robin for One Peace who refuse to be save by the straw hat crew but at the end of the day she really wanted to be saved, then we had Rukia from Bleach who also refuse to be saved but she wanted to be saved, the problem with Kishi is that he went the wrong way about it by making Naruto a wimp and Sasuke and extreme jerk now if Sasuke was destined to die I will be okay with it but like Nico Robin and Rukia we all know that there will be a point where Sasuke will also want to be save and admit that he was wrong for how he acted with them, but will that erase the terrible way Kishi made Naruto and Sakura behave because of Sasuke? No, will that erase all the crap Sasuke did? No, that is way I said Kishi went too damn far with Sasuke and Sasuke never felt any regret for what he has done.

Edited by Don-kun, 17 June 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Agree to disagree. 

If someone says "leave me alone" repeatedly you should LEAVE THEM ALONE. If someone gets VIOLENT and tells you to leave them alone, that they want nothing to do you with you- you leave them alone.

it doesn't matter if their your "Friend" or not. Once they decide they want to be left alone, they should be left alone to deal with themselves.

I can let the first time Naruto went after Sasuke slide, but everything after that? he's harassing him. He knows Sasuke doesn't want to be messed with but he keeps doing it. 
 

To be far Sasuke also needs to be stopped remember all that he has done and the power that he has he could use it to kill an untold number of people, if he is left to do what he wants I mean right now he should be captured and left in a prison or killed he can't just get away with all that he has done it would be BS if that does happen I mean its like all he had did was okay and what does that message send to people.

 

But I do agree Naruto needs to give up on Sasuke already.

Edited by TheFirstEvil100, 17 June 2014 - 10:59 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Well you see the thing is that basing on Kishi's writing style I agree with you. Like I said is Natural for a friend to try and save their friend, we have Nico Robin for One Peace who refuse to be save by the straw hat crew but at the end of the day she really wanted to be saved, then we had Rukia from Bleach who also refuse to be saved but she wanted to be saved, the problem with Kishi is that he went the wrong way about it by making Naruto a wimp and Sasuke and extreme jerk now if Sasuke was destined to die I will be okay with it but like Nico Robin and Rukia we all know that there will be a point where Sasuke will also want to be save and admit that he was wrong for how he acted but will that erase the terrible way Kishi made Naruto and Sakura behave? No, will that erase all the crap Sasuke did? No, that is way I said Kishi went too damn far with Sasuke and Sasuke never felt any regret for what he has done.

The thing with Robin and Rukia is completely different. 

Sasuke doesn't need saving ( in his own mind.) he went willingly, he was completely autonomous, no one forced him to go anywhere.

Naruto knows that. He knows Sasuke WANTED to leave. 

If he'd been forced, or held by the threatening of someone or something he cared about it'd be a different story. Comparing the three is like apples and oranges and uh---eggplants. ( Sasuke obviously.) 

 

To be far Sasuke also needs to be stopped remember all that he has done and the power that he has he could use it to kill an untold number of people, if he is left to do what he wants I mean right now he should be captured and left in a prison or killed he can't just get away with all that he has done it would be BS if that does happen I mean its like all he had did was okay and what does that message send to people.

 

But I do agree Naruto needs to give up on Sasuke already.

Thats true but its not about stopping Sasuke from hurting people. It seems like that's a secondary concern for Naruto. His primary thing is "Saving Sasuke and bringing him home." A home he doesn't/didn't want to be a part of, a rescue from something he actively fought for and wanted. 

To be specific, I was really just speaking about end of part one to pre-Itachi reveal Sasuke. At that point he wasn't a threat his only goal was killing Itachi and whatever. Naruto could have just let him be like Sasuke wanted. He didn't need to get involved with Sasuke revenge expedition. But you're right, he can't be left alone now since he's vowed to become Hokage and dispose of anyone who gets in the way of his new world order. 

I didn't mean to imply that he should just be let go or anything. That's the exact opposite of what I think should happen. 

[Dkey]

Agree to disagree. 

If someone says "leave me alone" repeatedly you should LEAVE THEM ALONE. If someone gets VIOLENT and tells you to leave them alone, that they want nothing to do you with you- you leave them alone.

it doesn't matter if their your "Friend" or not. Once they decide they want to be left alone, they should be left alone to deal with themselves.

I can let the first time Naruto went after Sasuke slide, but everything after that? he's harassing him. He knows Sasuke doesn't want to be messed with but he keeps doing it. 


If you or I repeatedly tell someone to leave us alone and they don't--its harassment. 
 
Uh...that statement is false. Shakespeare wasn't just judged by the quality of his work but the content and the message within that content. Literary scholars constantly pick messages and themes from literature to pick apart and relay to life as we know it. 

Othello is about the dangers of jealousy, spite and revenge- they destroy everything they touch. THAT is a good moral. Hamlet was about how revenge digs a double grave ( actually it killed a lot more people then that...) for the hero and for the villain while leaving everyone touched by it scarred. True enough, good moral. 

Also, Kishi is being judged RIGHT NOW ( and not just by me.)  but by everyone reading Naruto  This entire forum is us Judging his writing- not just on the quality but the content. (The quality is COMPRISED of content you see.) Every time someone complains about him being sexist is him being judged for the quality of his work.  If he's being sexist which is viewed as a bad characteristic he's giving a bad message to readers, right?

If Sasuke acts like he does, and gets forgiven without asking for it, without making amends, without recognizing the gravity of his actions that would be Kishimoto teaching people his behavior is acceptable. So far that's whats happening so I say again; teaching kids that its okay to act the way that Sasuke does because someone is going to pick up the pieces for them and magically make things better is not a good moral. 

As you said literary scholars pick themes.
They dont take everything.
Also its kinda impossible to compare both authors. shakespeare is GRRM of his time and took serious themes which resulted in tragedies.

Kishis story wont result in tragedy.

People judge kishi mostly because he isnt giving them what they want. At the end of the manga pairing wise there will be people who would be disapointed.

Also he belongs to another culture one that is more archaic than the american one. After reading some other manga I find now kishis manga a lot better in terms of sexism. He might have destroyed sakura 3 chapters in a row but overall its still better than other manga.

Also for me as a reader it would be impossible to believe that at the end sasuke will not show remorse for what he did. Somewhere along the lines of how madara acted during konohas founding. Having sasuke act all indiferent to others around him yet be accepted back in konoha is too weird even for me

[TheFirstEvil100]

Thats true but its not about stopping Sasuke from hurting people. It seems like that's a secondary concern for Naruto. His primary thing is "Saving Sasuke and bringing him home." A home he doesn't/didn't want to be a part of, a rescue from something he actively fought for and wanted. 

To be specific, I was really just speaking about end of part one to pre-Itachi reveal Sasuke. At that point he wasn't a threat his only goal was killing Itachi and whatever. Naruto could have just let him be like Sasuke wanted. He didn't need to get involved with Sasuke revenge expedition. But you're right, he can't be left alone now since he's vowed to become Hokage and dispose of anyone who gets in the way of his new world order. 

I didn't mean to imply that he should just be let go or anything. That's the exact opposite of what I think should happen. 

I know even Jiraiya said this that he should give up as Sasuke left of his own free will, I mean its funny as the abridged version made a joke about it.

 

Yeah and Sasuke as a Hokage I worry for all who live there I mean what if he kills anyone he think are not useful to him, hell he would just up right kill them saying it was for the better that they don't need useless ninja, oh and don't worry I understand what your trying to say to the others who wants Team 7 to be as many call it 'happy and smiling again' I mean that is all in the past now. And you can't always live in the past, you've got to always keep moving forward and never look back, but as you said what do you think should happen to Sasuke?

 

Me I think he does need to die as he is a wild card that you never know what can happen.

[Don-kun]

^^

I feel Sasuke should also die but if he does I want him to die an heroic way like using his Rinigan to bring back everyone's back to life, so Naruto's endless chase and promise to save his friend does not look like wasted panels and character development, at lease for me that would be a genuine way to pay for his mistake.

 

Oh I also know many users will hate if this happen since most hate what Pain did with the Konoha people.

Edited by Don-kun, 17 June 2014 - 11:39 PM.

[Otaru]

By your view of society, Criminals like Luis Garavito ( who was proven to murder 138 children who he raped, tortured and murdered—he’s suspected of having killed 400 individuals.) or Pedro lopez (he’s known to have killed 110 young girls ages 8-10, but he confessed to murdering 300 all after raping them.) would be “cured”

This is not comparable with Sasuke's story. Also, Naruto's world is not our world. I think there is no need to use those examples. In fact, if you read carefully, you'll notice that Sasuke NEVER killed anyone of importance in the manga. I think it's on purpose. // again, I'm not trying to defend Sasuke, I don't like him at all. I'm just trying to explain Kishimoto's work.
 

People are imperfect, dysfunctional beings. Society is comprised of people who are dysfunction and imperfect, therefore it can never be a perfect, murder free, violence free utopia. The best we can do is deal with the most dysfunctional dangerous people and remove them from the rest.

I think it's a coward way to deal with them. But again, it's just my opinion.
We are not here to discuss our society, by the way, even if I think Kishimoto is trying to send a message of peace that's actually concerning this society of ours.
 

It honestly seems to me that you feel more pity for the criminal then the victim which is completely twisted.

No, you're wrong. But I will not argue about that. I don't care at all.
 

You said that Obito was redeemed- its what you wrote. Which is what I was responding to because it was obviously wrong. You’re right, he has made a change- Sasuke hasn’t. Even if he had made a change it doesn’t mean he should get everything he tossed aside like trash handed to him on a silver platter.

Yes I wrote Obito was redeemed by Kakashi, Minato and Naruto. Not Sakura, but I think it's the same honestly. Sakura is not dumb. She will not curse a guy that was manipulated by Madara. Obito was a victim too.
Sasuke began to change too, because he went back to Konoha. He wanted to destroy it first. Now he wants to protect it. He even wants to become Hokage. He began to changed too. And you'll see, this will continue.
 

Again, YOU can think that it’s a good moral—but teaching children that they can hurt other people because they are hurting and have forgiveness shoved down their throat without working for it is a bad moral.

I think you don't get the message. Really.
What you said is far far away from Kishimoto's message. Not once, Kishimoto redeemed someone from scratch. Every bad person who has been redeemed has been forced to pass a "test" (through Naruto) and then they made a work on themselves. You should maybe read again the manga and maybe you'll see it. Not once Kishimoto just redeemed someone on a whim. Never. He made his characters went through hell then he made them work on themselves.
 

Naruto cannot fix crazy brain syndrome.

Eh ? Are you sure ? What was the problem of Gaara ? Psychological. What was the problem of Nagato ? Psychological. What was the problem of Obito ? Psychological. You can add others to the list.
 

If you’re the only one who believes that, don’t you think it might be because it contradicts the source material?

Well, think as you please. I think I'm right and maybe Kishimoto will prove it soon.
 

Sasuke checked because NARUTO said “how did you manage that?!” and Sasuke replied “Oh he used a Kunai and a scroll to save himself and Obito.”

He knew because he checked. He saw it. Why did he look ?
 

He didn’t care. If he cared he would have gone to save them. He had no idea if they had fallen into the lava or not before that and he was completely un-phased.  We can rehash this over and over and over again. What you think contradicts canon evidence.

I think he could have let them die yes. Because right now, he doesn't care. Because goals come before friends. That's why he's trying to convince Naruto that they might be forced to sacrifice them. Again, I'm sure it's not as simple as you think. We'll see in the future...
 

He wasn’t going to save them from Tsukuyomi, he was not going to save them from Lava. They could have fallen, he wouldn’t care. It does not get any more straightforward then the fact that 1. He said he didn’t care. 2. His body did nothing.

Yeah I know perfectly well. I'm not trying to prove the contrary. I said this myself.

It's bs really, Sasuke made his choice when he left the village, it's not his fault that those people wants to bring him back at all costs, if any Naruto was supposed to mind his own business and they'd probaby had met on the final.
No Kishimoto made Naruto and Sakura look like idiots the entire manga chasing after a guy that had made a choice and was aware of the consequences.

It's because the message is about not abandoning friends...
Naruto and Sakura don't look like idiots IMO, they are beautiful people that don't want to cast away Sasuke. It's a drama. If Naruto and Sakura would have accept to cast away Sasuke, he would already be dead... lol
Kishimoto wanted to write a story about friends/nakama.
I think if we see Naruto and Sakura as idiots, then we don't get the message.

Edited by Otaru, 18 June 2014 - 12:05 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

That right there is the crux of it all. 

Sasuke should have just been left alone like he wanted. Instead Naruto and Sakura just keep harassing him with things he obviously doesn't want. Thats not being a good friend, its being annoying. 

Naruto needs to learn to leave people alone when they want to be left alone, Sakura needs to learn to leave people alone who don't want to be bothered, and Sasuke just needs to get over himself.

Yep, the fact is that Kishimoto handled it poorly, Naruto and Sakura views were that Sasuke was a victim and was being manipuled by Orochimaru although he was never manipuled by Orochimaru but in reality he ended up using Orochimaru.
Then comes the "comradship", Naruto and Sakura used their connections (Tsunade) to prevent Sasuke from being targeted as a nukenin despite being one.
Sai is punched in the face by Sakura because he calls him a traitor(which he was).
Sasuke's motives and the way he behaved was never from someome who was a victim or a prisoner of hatred like Naruto uses to claim.
Kishimoto showed Sasuke as a man that chose revenge over his friends and is willing to sacrifice everything in order to achieve it even his former friends and from Naruto's perspective he's the innocent, the victim that needs to be saved.

The resut is anticlimatic scenes where Naruto tells Sasuke he will save him like on tthe summit and my reaction was "WTF".

@NarutoFireFoxUzumaki
THe proof is on the same chapter you bring the panel when Sasuke saves Karin, the second is on the summit before Sasuke becomes blind and the former after Sasuke ressurrects Orochimaru and they go to the village.
That's all.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 18 June 2014 - 12:08 AM.

[Otaru]

If someone says "leave me alone" repeatedly you should LEAVE THEM ALONE. If someone gets VIOLENT and tells you to leave them alone, that they want nothing to do you with you- you leave them alone.

it doesn't matter if their your "Friend" or not. Once they decide they want to be left alone, they should be left alone to deal with themselves.

I can let the first time Naruto went after Sasuke slide, but everything after that? he's harassing him. He knows Sasuke doesn't want to be messed with but he keeps doing it. 

If you or I repeatedly tell someone to leave us alone and they don't--its harassment.

It's not real life. It's Naruto's world, where Naruto is a saviour and has a mysterious power to save people minds. Kishi is respecting his theme. That's all. It's a fictional story... we shouldn't compare it purely with our reality...
 

Also, Kishi is being judged RIGHT NOW ( and not just by me.)  but by everyone reading Naruto  This entire forum is us Judging his writing- not just on the quality but the content. (The quality is COMPRISED of content you see.) Every time someone complains about him being sexist is him being judged for the quality of his work.  If he's being sexist which is viewed as a bad characteristic he's giving a bad message to readers, right?

Kishimoto is not responsible of the way readers understand his story. People twist stories through their personal view. In occidental world, we consider sexist things that are not in fact in other countries. It's not because Kishimoto save women a lot in his manga that he is sexist. It's that he has another vision that's all. Maybe he thinks that a man should protect the woman he loves and that's all. That's what he has written since the beginning of his manga. Is that that sexist ? Really ?
 

If Sasuke acts like he does, and gets forgiven without asking for it, without making amends, without recognizing the gravity of his actions that would be Kishimoto teaching people his behavior is acceptable. So far that's whats happening so I say again; teaching kids that its okay to act the way that Sasuke does because someone is going to pick up the pieces for them and magically make things better is not a good moral.

I don't think Kishimoto will get Sasuke forgiven without him making amends. I think he will work on himself. He will realise what he has done. IMO
Nobody will pick up the pieces for him. Throughout the manga, we've already saw that it's not working this way. Naruto's words are not enough. Sasuke needs to think about it. Really.
 

but will that erase the terrible way Kishi made Naruto and Sakura behave because of Sasuke?

Excuse me but, could you explain what Naruto and Sakura have done that is this "terrible" ? I don't get it.

But I do agree Naruto needs to give up on Sasuke already.

That would be OOC. Terribly. Naruto never give up on anything.
Well maybe Naruto should give up on things now, and let Sasuke become the devil and make love with Hinata.

Edited by Otaru, 18 June 2014 - 12:26 AM.

[Don-kun]

Yep, the fact is that Kishimoto handled it poorly, Naruto and Sakura views were that Sasuke was a victim and was being manipuled by Orochimaru although he was never manipuled by Orochimaru but in reality he ended up using Orochimaru.
Then comes the "comradship", Naruto and Sakura used their connections (Tsunade) to prevent Sasuke from being targeted as a nukenin despite being one.
Sai is punched in the face by Sakura because he calls him a traitor(which he was).
Sasuke's motives and the way he behaved was never from someome who was a victim or a prisoner of hatred like Naruto uses to claim.
Kishimoto showed Sasuke as a man that chose revenge over his friends and is willing to sacrifice everything in order to achieve it even his former friends and from Naruto's perspective he's the innocent, the victim that needs to be saved.

The resut is anticlimatic scenes where Naruto tells Sasuke he will save him like on tthe summit and my reaction was "WTF".

@NarutoFireFoxUzumaki
THe proof is on the same chapter you bring the panel when Sasuke saves Karin, the second is on the summit before Sasuke becomes blind and the former after Sasuke ressurrects Orochimaru and they go to the village.
That's all.

Not only you Sasuke ask the same question.

Spoiler

 

[Gojira]

^^
I feel Sasuke should also die but if he does I want him to die an heroic way like using his Rinigan to bring back everyone's back to life, so Naruto's endless chase and promise to save his friend does not look like wasted panels and character development, at lease for me that would be a genuine way to pay for his mistake.
 
Oh I also know many users will hate if this happen since most hate what Pain did with the Konoha people.

Hate to say but Kishi will never kill off Sasuke in fact he has been foreshadowing as being one of the savior a of the world in equal standing with Naruto.

[FireFox]

@NarutoFireFoxUzumaki
THe proof is on the same chapter you bring the panel when Sasuke saves Karin, the second is on the summit before Sasuke becomes blind and the former after Sasuke ressurrects Orochimaru and they go to the village.
That's all.

That really isn't any strong  proof the only one i might even consider in here is the Karin thing (and that was only done just for him to get a sense of "teamwork" ) as for the others you are over exaggerating them and twist them especially the Oro one and i just explained them to you and yet you just brushed my whole explanation of it you didn't even bother to counter it you just repeated what you said from the beginning  if you wanted this debate over you should have just said so in the first place . And i'm not gonna bother with any of your response the manga says it clear Sasuke doesn't care trying to say otherwise is just twisting the reality  "you just don't let the people you supposedly care for DIE and then feel NOTHING that's indifference not care  period  " any feelings he might have are nonexistent and not so important or meaningful to him .

[Tsuki Hoshino]

As you said literary scholars pick themes.
They dont take everything.
Also its kinda impossible to compare both authors. shakespeare is GRRM of his time and took serious themes which resulted in tragedies.

Kishis story wont result in tragedy.

People judge kishi mostly because he isnt giving them what they want. At the end of the manga pairing wise there will be people who would be disapointed.

Also he belongs to another culture one that is more archaic than the american one. After reading some other manga I find now kishis manga a lot better in terms of sexism. He might have destroyed sakura 3 chapters in a row but overall its still better than other manga.

Also for me as a reader it would be impossible to believe that at the end sasuke will not show remorse for what he did. Somewhere along the lines of how madara acted during konohas founding. Having sasuke act all indiferent to others around him yet be accepted back in konoha is too weird even for me

And forgiveness is the theme that we're talking about. Its the main moral in Shippuden at this point. The way that he's constructed that theme is poor. The way he's portrayed it is poor. its badly developed and because of that it sends a bad message. He could have pulled off a great message about forgiveness but instead he turned it into some cheap gimmick. Thats the problem. 

More importantly you've completely missed the point. You said that authors are judged on quality not the message they send. You were wrong. Everything they write is subject to being judged and it is. 

People judge Kishimoto because he does some things EXTREMELY well and then in the next moment he does something absolutely awful He's like a Yo-yo when it comes to writing. He gets your hopes up and then smacks you in the face with them. 
 

 

I know even Jiraiya said this that he should give up as Sasuke left of his own free will, I mean its funny as the abridged version made a joke about it.

 

Yeah and Sasuke as a Hokage I worry for all who live there I mean what if he kills anyone he think are not useful to him, hell he would just up right kill them saying it was for the better that they don't need useless ninja, oh and don't worry I understand what your trying to say to the others who wants Team 7 to be as many call it 'happy and smiling again' I mean that is all in the past now. And you can't always live in the past, you've got to always keep moving forward and never look back, but as you said what do you think should happen to Sasuke?

 

Me I think he does need to die as he is a wild card that you never know what can happen.

? Death would be the best option- but I don't think Kishi will do it. He likes Sasuke waaaay too much. Death is followed by roaming the world--as long as he gives up this "Revenge" and "changing the world by force" bint he's on. The last option would be being in village- Chakra sealed ( forever.) no more Sharingan so he's not much of a threat- actually this should happen even if he goes a roaming. 

Whatever his path is he shouldn't have any kids. Like I said before, thanks to Kishimoto's whole "Brain disorder" excuse there shouldn't be any more Uchiha because they're liabilities. 

 

 

This is not comparable with Sasuke's story. Also, Naruto's world is not our world. I think there is no need to use those examples. In fact, if you read carefully, you'll notice that Sasuke NEVER killed anyone of importance in the manga. I think it's on purpose. // again, I'm not trying to defend Sasuke, I don't like him at all. I'm just trying to explain Kishimoto's work.
 
I think it's a coward way to deal with them. But again, it's just my opinion.
We are not here to discuss our society, by the way, even if I think Kishimoto is trying to send a message of peace that's actually concerning this society of ours.
 
No, you're wrong. But I will not argue about that. I don't care at all.
 
Yes I wrote Obito was redeemed by Kakashi, Minato and Naruto. Not Sakura, but I think it's the same honestly. Sakura is not dumb. She will not curse a guy that was manipulated by Madara. Obito was a victim too.
Sasuke began to change too, because he went back to Konoha. He wanted to destroy it first. Now he wants to protect it. He even wants to become Hokage. He began to changed too. And you'll see, this will continue.
 
I think you don't get the message. Really.
What you said is far far away from Kishimoto's message. Not once, Kishimoto redeemed someone from scratch. Every bad person who has been redeemed has been forced to pass a "test" (through Naruto) and then they made a work on themselves. You should maybe read again the manga and maybe you'll see it. Not once Kishimoto just redeemed someone on a whim. Never. He made his characters went through hell then he made them work on themselves.
 
Eh ? Are you sure ? What was the problem of Gaara ? Psychological. What was the problem of Nagato ? Psychological. What was the problem of Obito ? Psychological. You can add others to the list.
 
Well, think as you please. I think I'm right and maybe Kishimoto will prove it soon.
 
He knew because he checked. He saw it. Why did he look ?
 
I think he could have let them die yes. Because right now, he doesn't care. Because goals come before friends. That's why he's trying to convince Naruto that they might be forced to sacrifice them. Again, I'm sure it's not as simple as you think. We'll see in the future...
 
Yeah I know perfectly well. I'm not trying to prove the contrary. I said this myself.

You are the one who keeps bringing up that the world needs more forgiveness and that criminals are thrown away because society is too lazy to deal with them rather then acknowledging the fact that's society CAN'T deal with them. Obito has killed good people, Orochimaru has killed good people, Sasuke tried to kill good people-- no amount of forgiveness erases those deaths or keeps them from killing MORE people when things don't do their way- or hey, whenever they damn well please. 

You don't put mass murderers near good people because they kill them. Simple logic. 

You used Sakura's "thank you" as an example of Obito being forgiven or on the path to forgiveness/redemption. Hence why she was brought up.

No, Kishimoto really hasn't made them work through hell to be redeemed. What hell did Nagato go through to be redeemed? he went through hell LONG before he was redeemed, going through hell caused him to need redemption, same with Gaara, Same with Obito. 

They suffered, went crazy, realized they were wrong and were redeemed though that sudden realization. <--- realization is Kishimoto's term for Redemption. Once you realize how wrong your actions were POOF forgiveness. In actuality its Realization---> apology---> Hard work,dedication, reparations---> forgiveness from the wronged party.


Gaara is really the only one who fits that model. He forgave others, he was forgiven. He worked for it even though they were the ones who caused him to need it in the first place. Also, Naruto isn't the redemption fairy. He's not the only party required for a person to be redeemed. There is the rest of the world that matters too. 

 

Sasuke looked because Naruto said something. 

You keep contradicting yourself "He's lying to himself about not caring!" which means he must care somewhere inside

Except that he doesn't.
 

Also, No Sasuke has not changed- his goal is still revenge the method he chooses is whats changed. Rather then just kill everyone, he's going to become Hokage and kill the people who get in his way.

Nothings changed. He was going to kill Naruto because he was in the way in Part 1 and in part 2. He tried to kill Karin for being in the way, And Sakura for being in the way. Whats changed? absolutely nothing. 

Yet again "not abandoning friends" is a great message...IF SASUKE WERE A FRIEND. He's not. He does not display any "Friend" characteristics. Its all Naruto projecting friendship ONTO Sasuke. There is no Team 7 <-- Sasuke--> Naruto in part II
its all Naruto---> Sasuke<--Team 7. Everyone is giving to him and they get nothing. Friendship is about feedback. It doesn't work when one person takes it all. 

#1 rule of writing- show, don't tell. Kishi has SHOWN us that Sasuke is not a friend. 

 

 

It's not real life. It's Naruto's world, where Naruto is a saviour and has a mysterious power to save people minds. Kishi is respecting his theme. That's all. It's a fictional story... we shouldn't compare it purely with our reality...
 
Kishimoto is not responsible of the way readers understand his story. People twist stories through their personal view. In occidental world, we consider sexist things that are not in fact in other countries. It's not because Kishimoto save women a lot in his manga that he is sexist. It's that he has another vision that's all. Maybe he thinks that a man should protect the woman he loves and that's all. That's what he has written since the beginning of his manga. Is that that sexist ? Really ?
 
I don't think Kishimoto will get Sasuke forgiven without him making amends. I think he will work on himself. He will realise what he has done. IMO
Nobody will pick up the pieces for him. Throughout the manga, we've already saw that it's not working this way. Naruto's words are not enough. Sasuke needs to think about it. Really.

Our reality shapes THEIR reality. They are people, we are people. They should react in a way that most people would react because they're people. 

I don't have a problem with women being saved, it was an example. I've already defended Kakashi for saving Sakura and Naruto for doing so. Its a natural, HUMAN reaction that people have.   

Chasing after someone who point blank says to leave them alone-- and considering it acceptable is not a normal reaction. Its a sign of unhealthy behavior. We like to call it stalking in the real world. 

Kishimoto has already had people picking up Sasuke's pieces. He SHOULD have been declared a missing nin by Tsunade. Instead she was convinced to let is slide because its "Sasuke" and Naruto wanted it. Normal consequences did not apply to him because of favoritism. All the negative consequences he should have experienced have so far been negated because someone has decided not to act. Hence, magically picking up the pieces.

 

Yep, the fact is that Kishimoto handled it poorly, Naruto and Sakura views were that Sasuke was a victim and was being manipuled by Orochimaru although he was never manipuled by Orochimaru but in reality he ended up using Orochimaru.
Then comes the "comradship", Naruto and Sakura used their connections (Tsunade) to prevent Sasuke from being targeted as a nukenin despite being one.
Sai is punched in the face by Sakura because he calls him a traitor(which he was).
Sasuke's motives and the way he behaved was never from someome who was a victim or a prisoner of hatred like Naruto uses to claim.
Kishimoto showed Sasuke as a man that chose revenge over his friends and is willing to sacrifice everything in order to achieve it even his former friends and from Naruto's perspective he's the innocent, the victim that needs to be saved.

The resut is anticlimatic scenes where Naruto tells Sasuke he will save him like on tthe summit and my reaction was "WTF".

Completely true. Absolutely all of it. Especially the special treatment via Tsunade and Sakura defending him.

Sasuke is spoiled by Naruto and Team 7 ( its really  Kishimoto though.) Actually...He's a complete Gary Stu when you think about it. Over powered to the max, no matter what he does everyone loves him and he can do no wrong.

Sasuke Stu. 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 18 June 2014 - 12:40 AM.

[Otaru]

Not only you Sasuke ask the same question.

Spoiler

 

And you can see in the panel bottom right that Sasuke is hurt about what Naruto said.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, I know I'll be sleeping early. I wonder how cool is the drink now. NYC is going to hit 90s degree. Good god. So please...you know me...expect a bad chapter!

[TerrorKing]

So I guess this confirms that Sakura will sit sit battle out...again...

 

Still, he decided to not let Sakura be absorbed by the infinite tsukuyomi. I hope he has a reason for that, other than having her once again realize that she can't keep up with Naruto and Sasuke.

 

So basically I hope we get another 631.

[FireFox]

Well, I know I'll be sleeping early. I wonder how cool is the drink now. NYC is going to hit 90s degree. Good god. So please...you know me...expect a bad chapter!

For our sake i hope you drink it when the chap comes out lol XD