879 replies to this topic

[ramenanmitsu]

yeah... I just read there as well..
 
Coincidence? maybe but it's funny because hamura isn't from some japanese folklore...

I think Kishi named the brother Hamura to have the same kanji as Hagoromo-羽衣 羽村
In ancient times, it was traditional for the siblings to share one similar kanji.

But was Hagoromo ever mentioned in Kanji to begin with?

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 06 June 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

So...what do we need raw for this time?

[六道仙人]

I think Kishi named the brother Hamura to have the same kanji as Hagoromo-羽衣 羽村
In ancient times, it was traditional for the siblings to share one similar kanji.

But was Hagoromo ever mentioned in Kanji to begin with?

 

mmh... hagoromo's name is written with katakana, like almost names in naruto world.

[Rozette]

Kishi quote of the week: "I hear that Godzilla is a huge hit in the U.S. I can't wait for the Japanese release!"

[Atheck]

It's not really reincarnation though.  Ashura's and Indra's chakra just happened to attach to Naruto and Sasuke respectively.  It was the same with Hashirama and Madara.  They were reincarnations too, according to that logic, but neither generations share the standard elements of reincarnation, e.g. looking the same, having memories of their past life, etc.

By whose standards are you judging those instances of rebirth? Retaining the chakra and essence of past lives doesn't mean having the same physical features right down to developing the same creases around the mouth at the same age or having the same texture of hair. The conduct of their character seems to be most important along with sharing a biological connection if you believe if it's more than just a coincidence that every known reincarnation happened to be related to the two children.
 

According to your logic, Hashirama and Madara had the right of their past lives' gifts, but never received it.

We have virtually no information about Hashirama and Madara's encounter with Hagoromo. Did they brandish their palms to show whether they had the marking on it or not? They certainly had the exceptional talent to prove that they were revolutionaries of a sort which they were. Their abilities were similar to their past and future lives in that they embodied a fundamental aspect of the Sage.

 

The heritage itself is questionable.  From what we know, Indra never got the Rinnegan, yet Sasuke has it in one eye.

Hagoromo gave only brief glimpses of Indra's life, single panel windows that were only just enough for Naruto and the reader to get the gist of what was being said. Whether or not he ever managed to make the final leap and mutate his doujutsu is unknown. However, the fact that the Sage spoke ill of Madara manipulating Hashirama's DNA to forcibly bring it to the same coalesced state as his own strongly argues that it was unprecedented before him. He may have been another attempt at life for Indra but the reincarnations do have their own traits that distinguish them from the others. Madara's lust for power and willingness to push the boundaries of achievement sets him apart. For Sasuke, while he did knowingly pursue the MS and EMS, it was mostly through coincidence and luck that gave him his Rinnegan (unless you believe that Kabuto giving him Senju DNA was part of a master scheme).
 

Ashura wasn't shown to be with the Bijuu. From what the Bijuu stated, they were waiting for this person the sage spoke of that would "play with" them for many years.  I do not see how what Naruto and Sasuke have now is their birthright.

As I said above, every transmigrant has traits that set them apart. Be it because of their environment or their own person, it distinguishes one life from the other. Indra's line does maintain certain definable traits through the doujutsu they inherit but Ashura's chakra is more broad-based in how it influences the skills of the vessel it occupies. Some of them may have been jinchuuriki while others like Hashirama only shared traits that are befitting for one. When it comes down to it though they share the powerful chakra and body of the Sage which is the most technically important part of being one with Ashura's essence.
 

Remember, he only has a piece of each Bijuu.  Kurama is the only Bijuu that Naruto has half of inside him.  Their full forms are inside Kaguya, and when they get released again, they will be outside again.  Then, they can take back their pieces from Naruto.  Kurama's I'd imagine would be tricky because it's half, but I'd imagine it's possible.  It's my own personal opinion that they will be free to roam the world again.  That's the conclusion I get from the build-up regarding them.

Freedom is a valuable commodity which they would all undoubtedly cherish, but what's probably most important to them is cooperation and acceptance by humans as beings with equal worth as themselves. Just because it may appear to be servitude does not make their willingness to live on in Naruto and help him protect the world and maintain balance any less just. Kurama, most importantly,has been with Naruto since infancy. With the ever strengthening bond that they have with each other, their willingness to cooperate and the depths of their friendship and company that they seem to cherish now, I doubt that that either one of them would want to give that up. Especially not for some obscured grasp at freedom that could just as easily kill Naruto if you believe in the "absolute rule of extraction" talk that was given 17 chapters before.

I can't speak for the others but the fragments may choose to remain inside of Naruto; if nothing else then to help the guardian of Hagoromo's philosophy succeed and protect him in the future.
 

Also, I'd imagine despite how all five countries get along with each other now, they wouldn't allow one single person to possess all the Bijuu.

After every sacrifice that Naruto has made for them and witnessing the genuineness of his convictions, they would allow suspicion to dictate their policies? I find that hard to believe. Especially since all of the Kages have already placed their absolute trust by allowing him to participate in the war and go up against the main architect of the conflict earlier. But if they still feel antsy about Naruto's power then they can take comfort knowing that the bijuu chakra he has is just a fraction of each whole that would be acting on their own to carry out Hagoromo's wishes.

 

It's not their souls, but rather Ashura's and Indra's chakra that attached to Naruto and Sasuke respectively.  Hagoromo spoke nothing of souls.

The concepts of souls and chakra are practically interchangeable at this point. It's the life essence of humanity that acts almost like a blueprint and fragment of their very being. If you don't have chakra, you die. And if you happen to do what Orochimaru, Minato, or anyone else that siphoned off their chakra did, you're able to project yourself onto others and even create a physical shell that thinks, feels, and acts just like the original person that was conceived by their mother.
 

Also, yes,I agree, it was because Naruto and Sasuke had Ashura's and Indra's chakra that they were able to meet Hagoromo, the legendary sage, regarded as a God of myth.  However, can the same be said of his brother, who's only been mentioned recently?  Their must be circumstances as to why myths don't mention the brother, and why Hagoromo himself briefly alluded to him.  From what can be the discerned, Hamura is a dark horse of sorts.  While Hagoromo was regarded as God, Hamura just doesn't get mentioned at all.  While Naruto and Sasuke met the sage due to their chakra, the conditions for meeting Hamura may be different.

Why is the redheaded stepchild so neglected and unwanted? Same principal as Hamura. Living in the shadow of your brother who received praise for the accomplishments that you made, not having an eye batted your way because you're not the great, powerful, self-important brother who has taken all of the glory for himself. Or perhaps the reason for him not having any references in oral recounts and history books has to do with how he acted after fighting the Jubi. Maybe his goals didn't quite line up with Hagoromo's ninshuu so he tried to take matters into is own hands and was promptly taken out before he could cause any real damage. Alternatively, the reason could be as simple as him not wanting the publicity.

However he might have come to be and his fate, it's not important if he intends to make his presence known and help in any way he can (unless he makes it important). And if you feel there's puzzle pieces to fit together with his circumstances and secret truths in namesakes to uncover then that's your choice to make. Hagoromo at one point was just an unspoken superstition who was too incredible for regular people to believe might have existed. He eventually was proven to be real and now we have Naruto and Sasuke reaping the benefits of who they are and what they're related to. It could mean the same for Hamura.
 

Yes, but is it permanent?  Is Naruto going to go through life now with + eyes, and Sasuke with one eye Rinnegan and the other Sharingan?  Chakra isn't unlimited either, unless you're an Edo.  Who's to say that during the battle that Naruto and Sasuke won't exhaust the chakra they were given?

The Sage mentioned nothing about the chakra being limited in supply. Unless that marking disappears then they retain the strength that Indra and Ashura had, which they still seemed to be using as they fought each other (a battle that's reminiscent of the one that's yet to happen between Sasuke and Naruto). Sasuke's heterochromia isn't an issue but if it doesn't look right without it being a whole set then maybe he'll unlock the Sharinnegan in his other eye once he meets Hamura. A focal point of the manga since the Sage was introduced is balance. Balance of the mind and body, Yin and Yang. Maybe that's the reason for the brother being introduced. To give balance to two people who are oversaturated with one or the other. In the process, they're given the means to destroy Kaguya.
 
 

Yes, but Black Zetsu said it would take time for the people to become White Zetsu. Also, Kaguya wants to kill them quickly.

How much time though? And why does this prevent Kaguya from creating minions in an effort to divert their attention as she tries to kill them? Spiral Zetsu is certainly still around so they have one potential enemy who could come to the aid of his creator. And should they prove to be more of a nuisance than Kaguya anticipated, which is bound to happen, she'll need every advantage that can be mustered if the tides start to turn against her.
 

Are we to believe that after getting out of the lava pit, that Naruto and Sasuke will still proceed to fight her, just the two of them, because we saw how well that worked the first time, and she wasn't even completely here yet.

Are we to believe that Naruto after having had his lifeline extracted and Sasuke after being pushed to the brink of death by falling on his own sword would challenge Madara in his current condition or any status that might be hundreds/thousands of times stronger than his regular shirtless self who had just one Rinnegan? In the end, they did. They teetered on the edge of life and death, communicated with a time traveling mystic, and came back stronger than ever. Why can't history repeat itself by having those two achieve the final step and bring the greatest threat known to humanity down? They certainly meet the standards to communicate with legendary spiritual figures and receive power ups.
 

Also, will Kaguya just focus on them, and not attempt to kill the "weak links" first?  Are Kakashi and Sakura just supposed to wait around until the cocoons start to change for who knows how long if they even have that opportunity?  I would be keep my eyes constantly on the rabbit goddess if I were them.

So long as they're not foolhardy enough to try anything, she has nothing to be concerned about from them (they have no personal ties to Kaguya as Naruto and Sasuke do which might be one factor going into her concentrating solely on them at the moment). If they decide to throw their own hats in then they'll be killed on the spot, assuming Naruto doesn't rescue them in time. But you heard Kakashi, they're choosing to bide their time and wait for the opportune moment to strike. That's good. They're able to make use of what strength they do have, even if it's just a tiny amount, they feel they can make a difference. In the meantime, the Zetsu would continue to develop until they're born. Or if not, they continue to do everything they can to help (that's within reason as Kakashi is wisely choosing to do).
 

Really, they would want to stop Kaguya before it happens though, and they do have time to do that.  Instead of Sakura and Kakashi to be waiting for something that might not even happen, it would make more sense to have them go through a circumstantial event that has them learn what the heck is going on, and have them up to par to be able to help against the central threat.  Sakura with her build up lately is expected to have this, at the least.

People want to see them get power ups just so a favourite can have the same brush of paint used on them as Naruto and Sasuke. Or if they're dissecting comments for meaning, they're using a poorly reinforced idea of "balance" to justify something that's unlikely to have much long-term value (going by Kishi's track record). It makes even less sense than the contrived events that happened before that have been the subject of controversy. Moreover, it hardly makes any difference if you have two more people on Naruto and Sasuke's level if they're all equally inferior to Kaguya. Strength of numbers hardly changes anything with the powers used by their enemy.
 

Tobirama has determined Naruto is just as much an idiot as Hashirama. Shikamaru compares his duty as being adviser to Naruto when he becomes Hokage to be similar to Tobirama as adviser to Hashirama.  They really aren't all that different.

Read the quote that Tobirama gave regarding their personalities, "Stupid, indulgent, a brat that always speaks too much". They're both hardened idealists who try to look for the best in everything and will resort to desperate, almost childish methods to attain them (like begging in front of political leaders to request a favour or arrangement). Qualities like these do not take away from the differences that distinguish them from each other though. Next to the similarities, Tobirama also concluded that Naruto was even more stupid than his brother. Hashirama can be very well-reasoned when he wants to be, especially when he feels that he has the knowledge and the open-mindedness of those he's talking to to hear him out. Despite his childish pleas at vulnerable moments, he has the ability to try and put his ideals into practice with a plan, even when they contradict the wishes of his adviser. On the other hand, Naruto has a bad habit of becoming tongue-tied whenever he needs to back up his ideas as we saw with Nagato and later Tobi (whom Kurama had to speak on Naruto's behalf and recite Naruto's bullheadedness that everything would work itself out in the end). He often makes promises and appeals to a person's sense of humanity to persuade them but that's generally the extent of his negotiations with people. Like I said, Naruto is very good at advertisement. He can get the right emotional responce that makes a person susceptible to sympathizing with him, but ask him what he intends to do to put his ideals into policy and he's at a loss for words. That's where I believe Hashirama and Naruto diverge.
 

Also, just because Naruto when he was young thinks surpassing the Hokage means in strength, though it's never outright stated it is in the flashback, doesn't mean Kakashi in the present is judging by the same criteria.

So it's just coincidence that Kakashi happened to make such a bold remark after he saw how Naruto handled himself in front of Madara? If he meant surpassing in the context of having successfully united the people together, why did he wait until now to confirm that Naruto's dreams came true? Convenience because the other team members were there? If anyone should understand what Naruto meant at the time, it would be Kakashi. He knows how Naruto was raised and he recognized the yearning to be acknowledged by others. Getting people to see eye-to-eye and have them lay down their arms wasn't a prerequisite until later on. By the manga's early definition, Hokage is the person who is recognized as the strongest in the village.

Edited by Atheck, 06 June 2014 - 08:08 PM.

[Gojira]

Kishi quote of the week: "I hear that Godzilla is a huge hit in the U.S. I can't wait for the Japanese release!"

When does it release in Japan?

[Rozette]

When does it release in Japan?

 

July 25, 2014, I believe.

[rocci]

 
I'm sorry, but the bolded doesn't make sense to me. How would Naruto still be able to keep the bijuu's abilities if he sets them free? And even if he frees all the other bijuu, he wouldn't be able to free the Kyuubi because, as we've seen, Naruto would die without it. Perhaps you could elaborate for me?

Naruto can bijuu ability like lava & sand release because he has small version of it. When naruto set fee bijuu from madara/kaguya, people expect naruto power go back to the bijuu.
The power(small bijuu chakra)will not back because it's the gift from the bijuu.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Naruto can bijuu ability like lava & sand release because he has small version of it. When naruto set fee bijuu from madara/kaguya, people expect naruto power go back to the bijuu.
The power(small bijuu chakra)will not back because it's the gift from the bijuu.

 

Okay, know I get what you mean.  I was thinking you meant Naruto would set the bijuu free from himself, that's why it didn't make sense. 

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I am not sure on whether or not Naruto's power is permanent, but I always thought that he would let the bijuus run free and if he ever needed help, they would come in an instant to help Naruto out of whatever the predicament is.

[redrose3443]

I can see how Sakura getting a power up seems unlikely. However, I can't accept the fact that Naruto and Sasuke will get another one, when we barely know/understand their current abilities. Not to mention, like DattebayoXShannaro said, them being there just to take care of future white zetsus, seem a little ridiculous. I mean, why would Kaguya even need them, when she herself could easily wipe the floor with them, with a wave of her hand? The zetsu thing just seems to be added to create a time limit for T7 really.

 

Plus, we don't even know if Hamura is anywhere near Hagoromo's level. He was never foreshadowed and if there was someone nearly as power as the sage of the six paths, don't you think someone would notice that? Then again, we don't know the full story yet that surrounds this sibling and people are still guessing Hamura is a girl so...

 

I'm just wondering what more can you give Naru/ Sasu. If they did get ANOTHER power up, will it just enhance they're abilities? For all we know Hamura could have a completely different set of abilities and way of doing things from his brother. People already went crazy about the boys new powers and I'm sure it would not sit right with most to see them gain more barely ten chapters later. Though of course it's somewhat likely to happen, all I could imagine is, it would be like this.

 

N/S get knocked out/ nearly killed again;

Hamura; Naruto, Sasuke, I see you've gained my nephews abilities. However, it seems my mother is there and you're having trouble, here is some more power to defeat her.

 

Naruto; Thanks, old weird guy.

 

Sasuke; Whatever.

 

They wake up super powerful now and after Naruto gives another declaration, they begin fighting and showing off new and amazing abilities.

 

Meanwhile, Sakura and Kakashi are standing by Obicorpse wondering about the boys new abilities, as they watch the fight.

 

It's just, when you looked at chapter 679, you saw how extremely unneeded the two were. They just took up panels for reactions and the sake of being there. If the people trapped in the IT turned into zetsus, would that be game over? Would Saku/ Kaka be useless for the next 15 chapters, before white zetsus even appear? Honestly, if that's their role, it just seems like a big waste and that they should have gotten caught in the genjutsu. At least we would know who Sakura really loves or desires and Kakashi might've shown his real face in his dream.

 

This is not directed at Atheck, it's just my personal view of things.

Edited by redrose3443, 06 June 2014 - 11:16 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Kind of funny to think about more power up for Naruto and Sasuke just because the situation. Granted, it's insane, but it's like "Hey, Hagoromo! We still getting our ass kicked!" and he'll be like, "Ok, more power!!!" I mean don't you think you should have gave them all. Lastly, this power up they have is the pinnacle of their main attribute, so no more from Hagoromo.

But I gotta say, it's pretty funny that they got it, felt confident, and now, they're getting their ass kicked. Well, Hagoromo should come out and say, "Oh nevermind. You guys blow." I blame Sasuke for this. Funny how Sasuke's one of the main perk got defeated quick by absorbing Madara. Now I see the joke on "Sasuke the great captain."

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

It's just, when you looked at chapter 679, you saw how extremely unneeded the two were. They just took up panels for reactions and the sake of being there. If the people trapped in the IT turned into zetsus, would that be game over? Would Saku/ Kaka be useless for the next 15 chapters, before white zetsus even appear? Honestly, if that's their role, it just seems like a big waste and that they should have gotten caught in the genjutsu. At least we would know who Sakura really loves or desires and Kakashi might've shown his real face in his dream.
 
This is not directed at Atheck, it's just my personal view of things.

Not so fast, about Sakura Kishimoto could go neutral and shows Sakura with the old team 7 reunited since it's her dream too.
I'm basing off on those sketchs that give the feelings of open ending, with Kishimoto drawing team 7 on vacation and saying he enjoyed drawing it.
Kishimoto likes to draw team 7 i would not be surprised if somehow the manga ends with Team 7.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 June 2014 - 09:21 PM.

[redragon88]

Not so fast, about Sakura Kishimoto could go neutral and shows Sakura with the old team 7 reunited since it's her dream too.
I'm basing off on those sketchs that give the feelings of open ending, with Kishimoto drawing team 7 on vacation and saying he enjoyed drawing it.
Kishimoto likes to draw team 7 i would not be surprised if somehow the manga ends with Team 7.

 

Are you talking about that mini story with Team 7 on the beach where Sakura smacked Naruto for almost clubbing Sasuke think the watermelon was there?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Are you talking about that mini story with Team 7 on the beach where Sakura smacked Naruto for almost clubbing Sasuke think the watermelon was there?

This and another one just dont remember which was.

[redragon88]

This and another one just dont remember which was.

 

How old is this other skecth? Part 1? Part 2?

 

The only time is remember Kishi saying that he's particularly enjoyed making a drawing was in reference to the recent Team 7 volume cover.

 

But you're talking about something different. Are you sure about Kishi making such a comment? Where did you read it?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

How old is this other skecth? Part 1? Part 2?

 

The only time is remember Kishi saying that he's particularly enjoyed making a drawing was in reference to the recent Team 7 volume cover.

 

But you're talking about something different. Are you sure about Kishi making such a comment? Where did you read it?

When he draw a cover with team 7.

[redragon88]

When he draw a cover with team 7.

 

Well, there's been a lot of those, so I can't really round it down with that.

[DattebayoXShannaro]

By whose standards are you judging those instances of rebirth? Retaining the chakra and essence of past lives doesn't mean having the same physical features right down to developing the same creases around the mouth at the same age or having the same texture of hair. The conduct of their character seems to be most important along with sharing a biological connection if you believe if it's more than just a coincidence that every known reincarnation happened to be related to the two children.

 

I'm merely pointing out the concept of reincarnation is different in Naruto, and doesn't show the similar signs used in other fiction, such as looking the same, having memories of their past life, etc.  By what we know, it's not reincarnations as it is a transmigration.  Asuhra and Indra's chakra attach themselves to a person of choice.  Also, their presence remains separate from the person they attach to.  Naruto could sense Indra's presence when clashing with Sasuke at the bridge in the second Team 7 reunion.  Naruto could infer the same with himself where he could sense Ashura's presence with him, though he had no idea exactly who they were, but he knew they were there.

 

 

 We have virtually no information about Hashirama and Madara's encounter with Hagoromo. Did they brandish their palms to show whether they had the marking on it or not? They certainly had the exceptional talent to prove that they were revolutionaries of a sort which they were. Their abilities were similar to their past and future lives in that they embodied a fundamental aspect of the Sage.

 

We have no idea if Hashirama or Madara met the sage or not.  That much is true.  It could have happened, but it couldn't have happened as well.  I lean more towards they didn't.  Madara became close to the power of the sage because of Kaguya's influence.  Hashirama looks to be as strong as he always was in his prime.

 

While Hashirama had a natural healing ability, he's known for his Wood style techniques, a kekkei genkai known specifically only to him.  Madara, before he got the Rinnegan, had up to the Eternal Mangekyou, that any Uchiha can achieve by following the requirements, though rare.  Furthermore, if we talk about Hashirama, every Senju had a fundamental aspect of the sage (the body).  If we talk about Madara, then every Uchiha embodied a fundamental aspect of the sage (the eyes).  While Sasuke is an Uchiha, Naruto is an Uzumaki, distant relatives to the Senju.  How distant is up for debate.

 

 

Hagoromo gave only brief glimpses of Indra's life, single panel windows that were only just enough for Naruto and the reader to get the gist of what was being said. Whether or not he ever managed to make the final leap and mutate his doujutsu is unknown. However, the fact that the Sage spoke ill of Madara manipulating Hashirama's DNA to forcibly bring it to the same coalesced state as his own strongly argues that it was unprecedented before him. He may have been another attempt at life for Indra but the reincarnations do have their own traits that distinguish them from the others. Madara's lust for power and willingness to push the boundaries of achievement sets him apart. For Sasuke, while he did knowingly pursue the MS and EMS, it was mostly through coincidence and luck that gave him his Rinnegan (unless you believe that Kabuto giving him Senju was part of a master scheme).

 

From this, it sounds like you agree that Indra never crossed that line Madara did.

 

As I said above, every transmigrant has traits that set them apart. Be it because of their environment or their own person, it distinguishes one life from the other. Indra's line does maintain certain definable traits through the doujutsu they inherit but Ashura's chakra is more broad-based in how it influences the skills of the vessel it occupies. Some of them may have been jinchuuriki while others like Hashirama only shared traits that are befitting for one. When it comes down to it though they share the powerful chakra and body of the Sage which is the most technically important part of being one with Ashura's essence.

 

So how is what looks like permanent Bijuu-Sage mode an inheritance, when it looks to amplify what Naruto already used before.  Plus, the chakra rods are ones that a person with the abilities of all nine Bijuu can use.  Ashura wasn't shown with the Bijuu, but there's evidence that he hasn't.  Hagoromo promised the Bijuu a person will come that will play with them, and Kurama mentions that it took a very, very long time for that person to come.

 

Freedom is a valuable commodity which they would all undoubtedly cherish, but what's probably most important to them is cooperation and acceptance by humans as beings with equal worth as themselves. Just because it may appear to be servitude does not make their willingness to live on in Naruto and help him protect the world and maintain balance any less just. Kurama, most importantly,has been with Naruto since infancy. With the ever strengthening bond that they have with each other, their willingness to cooperate and the depths of their friendship and company that they seem to cherish now, I doubt that that either one of them would want to give that up. Especially not for some obscured grasp at freedom that could just as easily kill Naruto if you believe in the "absolute rule of extraction" talk that was given 17 chapters before.

I can't speak for the others but the fragments may choose to remain inside of Naruto; if nothing else then to help the guardian of Hagoromo's philosophy succeed and protect him in the future.

 

They would have freedom anyway, if it's just a piece Naruto has, even Kurama, though his situation is unique as he was split into two entities.  It looks more like the pieces would act as proxy to their original selves except Kurama, and that will get confusing once they are released from Kaguya.  Another reason why I believe this situation is temporary.  Also, Kurama being released from Naruto's body wouldn't be giving up his company.  Kurama can just live nearby the leaf village if he wants to.  The most important aspect for the Bijuu's future is for humans to give up the Jinchuuriki system.  That's what the build up is leading towards.  Humans have to adjust to the Bijuu being sentient creatures, and have no need to be imprisoned in sealing tools or humans to keep under management.   We were shown cooperation briefly with Gaara and Shukaku working together for a short while.

 

 After every sacrifice that Naruto has made for them and witnessing the genuineness of his convictions, they would allow suspicion to dictate their policies? I find that hard to believe. Especially since all of the Kages have already placed their absolute trust by allowing him to participate in the war and go up against the main architect of the conflict earlier. But if they still feel antsy about Naruto's power then they can take comfort knowing that the bijuu chakra he has is just a fraction of each whole that would be acting on their own to carry out Hagoromo's wishes.

 

So?  Kaguya stopped war everywhere.  Did that stop people from trying to fight later? Hagoromo (and his brother) stopped the Juubi's rampage, and spread Ninshuu to the people.  Did that stop people from turning it into a weapon to be used in wars?  This generation's time is limited, and people will forget in time.  They will forget the tensions and humility experienced through their tribulations in war that forged the lessons learned, and someday, another will rise up to break the peace that people worked so hard and sacrificed to achieve.  It's no one's fault.  It's just human nature.  Really, if Naruto kept all the Bijuu, give it time before someone or a group of people finds that wrong and acts on it.

 

 The concepts of souls and chakra are practically interchangeable at this point. It's the life essence of humanity that acts almost like a blueprint and fragment of their very being. If you don't have chakra, you die. And if you happen to do what Orochimaru, Minato, or anyone else that siphoned off their chakra did, you're able to project yourself onto others and even create a physical shell that thinks, feels, and acts just like the original person that was conceived by their mother.

 

Not really, chakra is the same as energy.  If we don't properly gain and manage our energy by eating and exercising, we lean more closer to death.  While there are some cases that representations of people have appeared by leaving chakra, that's not to assume chakra is the defining reason.  With Minato, it was a safety measure in case Kurama was close to completely taking over Naruto.  I don't think it was just his chakra he put in Naruto, but also a jutsu.  Also, Edo Minato has to memories of that encounter.  Kushina was a bit different.  Her chakra was also placed in Naruto to be released at a certain time as well.  Kushina was to help Naruto win the tug of war against Kurama, and tell him about what happened the night he was born.  Now, her apparition may act like a shadow clan, and once she disappeared, the original her in the afterlife gained that experience, though this is just speculation.  These two examples are unique in of themselves, and were meant to act as a fail safe of sorts, when Naruto went through certain experiences.  Naruto gave his and Kurama's chakra to everyone.  I doubt we will have Naruto apparitions in everyone's inner world that he gave chakra too.

 

 Why is the redheaded stepchild so neglected and unwanted? Same principal as Hamura. Living in the shadow of your brother who received praise for the accomplishments that you made, not having an eye batted your way because you're not the great, powerful, self-important brother who has taken all of the glory for himself. Or perhaps the reason for him not having any references in oral recounts and history books has to do with how he acted after fighting the Jubi. Maybe his goals didn't quite line up with Hagoromo's ninshuu so he tried to take matters into is own hands and was promptly taken out before he could cause any real damage. Alternatively, the reason could be as simple as him not wanting the publicity.

However he might have come to be and his fate, it's not important if he intends to make his presence known and help in any way he can (unless he makes it important). And if you feel there's puzzle pieces to fit together with his circumstances and secret truths in namesakes to uncover then that's your choice to make. Hagoromo at one point was just an unspoken superstition who was too incredible for regular people to believe might have existed. He eventually was proven to be real and now we have Naruto and Sasuke reaping the benefits of who they are and what they're related to. It could mean the same for Hamura.

 

There's no hint that there was even a rivalry between the brothers like Ashura and Indra.  They both had to work together to stop the Juubi and seal it.  After that, nothing else was said about Hamura.  Myth states that Hagoromo alone stopped the Juubi.  Hamura is not even mentioned.   We can only guess the circumstances of why.  However, Naruto and Sasuke already met Hagoromo, and that needed them both at near death for that to happen.  Again, the requirements for meeting Hamura can and most likely are different, because it will be too repetitive to have Naruto and Sasuke both "die" again to meet the other brother, plus Sakura would have to focus on only one to heal, while leaving the other to actually die, so no, that can't happen.  Again, they already met Hagoromo, why do they need to meet Hamura, when they already know what's going on, and already are strong enough?

 

If Hamura does make an appearance, it shouldn't just be Naruto and Sasuke.  Sakura and Kakashi need to be included, at the least.  They have no idea what's going on anymore, and Sasuke is being difficult in not telling them what's going on, because he deems telling them is unnecessary.  They're here, and they need to know why and how circumstances lead to the current situation, if they are going to be able to help.  Hamura just seems a possible informant right now, since they aren't getting any answers from either Naruto or Sasuke.

 

The Sage mentioned nothing about the chakra being limited in supply. Unless that marking disappears then they retain the strength that Indra and Ashura had, which they still seemed to be using as they fought each other (a battle that's reminiscent of the one that's yet to happen between Sasuke and Naruto). Sasuke's heterochromia isn't an issue but if it doesn't look right without it being a whole set then maybe he'll unlock the Sharinnegan in his other eye once he meets Hamura. A focal point of the manga since the Sage was introduced is balance. Balance of the mind and body, Yin and Yang. Maybe that's the reason for the brother being introduced. To give balance to two people who are oversaturated with one or the other. In the process, they're given the means to destroy Kaguya.

 

He didn't say it was unlimited either.  The battle between Naruto and Sasuke while is foreshadowed to be reminiscent of Hashirama vs. Madara and Ashura vs. Indra.  It's not meant to be a carbon copy.  As such, we shouldn't expect them to have the same abilities as their predecessors.  

 

Again, why do Naruto and Sasuke need another power-up?  They had enough.  Just because Kaguya is displayed to have overwhelming abilities at first doesn't mean the power-up they currently have is now useless.  She's the final villain of this war.  She's supposed to come off as powerful.  Once having full control of the Juubi, Obito came off the same way, yet Naruto and Sasuke could still stop him with their strongest abilities at the time combined, without any added power-up, until after Madara became the main villain.

 

 

 

How much time though? And why does this prevent Kaguya from creating minions in an effort to divert their attention as she tries to kill them? Spiral Zetsu is certainly still around so they have one potential enemy who could come to the aid of his creator. And should they prove to be more of a nuisance than Kaguya anticipated, which is bound to happen, she'll need every advantage that can be mustered if the tides start to turn against her.

 

I'd imagine a while, though that's just my guess.  All I know is that it isn't going to be instant.  If Kaguya could create minions by herself, she wouldn't need the tree in the first place to create White Zetsu.  Also, if Team 7 survives this lava pit, it's common tactic that she'll stop going about this the roundabout way, and just off them herself.  We shouldn't forget that she expects the lava to be able to finish them off in the first place.   Sasuke and Naruto can most likely survive by flying using Susanoo and Chomei respectively.  But what does this say about Sakura and Kakashi?  Naruto can save them, but what if Sasuke intervenes to get him to pay attention to Kaguya, instead of the "dead weight"?  Also, Kaguya is watching from above, and could intervene in any moment if it proves it will take more effort to get them to fall.  All in all, let's see how this plays out before we start assuming she'll summon soldiers, which makes the IT seem rather pointless then, if she could do it on her own.

 

 Are we to believe that Naruto after having had his lifeline extracted and Sasuke after being pushed to the brink of death by falling on his own sword would challenge Madara in his current condition or any status that might be hundreds/thousands of times stronger than his regular shirtless self who has just one Rinnegan? In the end, they did. They teetered on the edge of life and death, communicated with a time traveling mystic, and came back stronger than ever. Why can't history repeat itself by having those two achieve the final step and bring the greatest threat known to humanity down? They certainly meet the standards to communicate with legendary spiritual figures and receive power ups.

 

No, I don't expect they'll just give up, but it'll be a losing fight, without some help. Kishimoto foreshadowed teamwork from Team 7, not Naruto and Sasuke doing their own thing, and Sakura and Kakashi doing their own thing, but all of them working together.  History shouldn't repeat itself with them, because it will be too repetitive. Naruto and Sasuke got a power-up not that long ago.  They don't need another one.  They already are at the strongest they've ever been.  Naruto comments how he can do anything now.  Sasuke already has a eye technique that no one other than Kishimoto knows exactly what it is, and Naruto can make an eye out of nothing.  Why do they need even more power than what they have?  Also, what would be the point of declaring teamwork in chapter 675, if it isn't Team 7 fighting, but just Naruto and Sasuke?  What is the point of having us reminded of Sakura's goal of standing with the boys, if she doesn't realize that goal?  What's the point of having Sasuke downplay Sakura if it wasn't foreshadow to prove him wrong?  It'll prove him right if she has to be regulated to fighting fodders, and in the end has to resign to being in the back like she doesn't want.

 

 So long as they're not foolhardy enough to try anything, she has nothing to be concerned about from them (they have no personal ties to Kaguya as Naruto and Sasuke do which might be one factor going into her concentrating solely on them at the moment). If they decide to throw their own hats in then they'll be killed on the spot, assuming Naruto doesn't rescue them in time. But you heard Kakashi, they're choosing to bide their time and wait for the opportune moment to strike. That's good. They're able to make use of what strength they do have, even if it's just a tiny amount, they feel they can make a difference. In the meantime, the Zetsu would continue to develop until they're born. Or if not, they continue to do everything they can to help (that's within reason as Kakashi is wisely choosing to do).

 

If they are that insignificant to her, she wouldn't need to summon soldiers for them, wouldn't she?

 

 People want to see them get power ups just so a favourite can have the same brush of paint used on them as Naruto and Sasuke. Or if they're dissecting comments for meaning, they're using a poorly reinforced idea of "balance" to justify something that's unlikely to have much long-term value (going by Kishi's track record) and makes even less sense than the contrived events that happened before. And it hardly makes any difference if you have two more people on Naruto and Sasuke's level if they're all equally inferior to Kaguya. Strength of numbers hardly changes with the powers used by their enemy and the lack of strength and speed to match her.

 

That's why they need to combined their powers to fight Kaguya.  That's teamwork.  To fight a greater enemy one couldn't hope to fight alone.  It was the same with Obito.  Naruto and Sasuke were both inferior to Obito as the Juubi jinchuuriki.  They had to work together to get a hit off him, and then, they needed the help of the entire alliance to take away his power.

 

Sakura herself is foreshadowed to have something happen to her.  The claims that she gets a power-up, at the least, are not baseless.

 

Read the quote that Tobirama gave regarding their personalities, "Stupid, indulgent, a brat that always speaks too much". They're both hardened idealists who try to look for the best in everything and will resort to desperate, almost childish methods to attain them (like begging in front of political leaders to request a favour or arrangement). Qualities like these do not take away from the differences that distinguish them from each other though. Next to the similarities, Tobirama also concluded that Naruto was even more stupid than his brother. Hashirama can be very well-reasoned when he wants to be, especially when he feels that he has the knowledge and the open-mindedness of those he's talking to to hear him out. Despite his childish pleas at vulnerable moments, he has the ability to try and put his ideals into practice with a plan, even when they contradict the wishes of his adviser. On the other hand, Naruto has a bad habit of becoming tongue-tied whenever he needs to back up his ideas as we saw with Nagato and later Tobi (whom Kurama had to speak on Naruto's behalf and recite Naruto's bullheadedness that everything would work itself out in the end). He often makes promises and appeals to a person's sense of humanity to persuade them but that's generally the extent of his negotiations with people. Like I said, Naruto is very good at advertisement. He can get the right emotional responce that makes a person susceptible to sympathizing with him, but ask him what he intends to do to put his ideals into policy and he's at a loss for words. That's where I believe Hashirama and Naruto diverge.

 

I do believe your selling Naruto short.  It doesn't help you're comparing a grown man to a teenager.  Of course, Hashirama is bound to be shown to have more experience.  Also, Naruto is bound to learn these things on his road to be Hokage, but right now, he's still a genin. 

 

However, we aren't shown how Hashirama got his policies through.  We're just shown the result.  It's possible he had help to get them through, from Tobirama and other people.  You're assuming he had plans when he could have been just in the dark like you think Naruto is.  Naruto wasn't tongue tied with Obito.  Kurama asked to switch with Naruto before he could respond.  Also, while Naruto couldn't answer Nagato at first, he did eventually give him an answer, in his own way.  Sure, it's only just ideal, but he's still growing, and it was appropriate for the circumstances.

 

Furthermore, it's because Hashirama was more well-reasoned that in the end he gave up on trying to save Madara and tried to kill him.  He chose the village over his friend.  Naruto may be more idealistic, but it's in that idealistic nature where he will surpass Hashirama.  Naruto already told Sasuke he won't choose him or the village, one over the other.  He won't make the same choice as Hashirama. but will find a way to save Sasuke and protect the village, because of his nature. 

 

 

So it's just coincidence that Kakashi happened to make such a bold remark after he saw how Naruto handled himself in front of Madara? If he meant surpassing in the context of having successfully united the people together, why did he wait until now to confirm that Naruto's dreams came true? Convenience because the other team members were there? If anyone should understand what Naruto meant at the time, it would be Kakashi. He knows how Naruto was raised and he recognized the yearning to be acknowledged by others. Getting people to see eye-to-eye and have them lay down their arms wasn't a prerequisite until later on. By the manga's early definition, Hokage is the person who is recognized as the strongest in the village.

 

If that's the case, then Naruto has been acknowledged because of power that was given to him, not his own.  I'd like to think what Kakashi meant about surpassing the Hokage was that he's succeeding in what they failed to do, not in a power-up that could be temporary.  Agree to disagree.

Edited by DattebayoXShannaro, 07 June 2014 - 02:37 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I think its perfectly reasonable to assume or hypothesize that something is going to happen with Sakura. One of her biggest character points is NOT looking at Sasuke and Naruto's back. Is NOT being useless, which she kinda is at the moment...It just doesn't make sense to have her there for this and for her big life motivation to be about standing as an equal with Naruto and Sasuke only to NOT be able to attain her goals in the end.

Plus, Sasuke word stomping her and Kakashi calls for a sharp lesson It just seems silly to let it go no where.