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#621 Nate River

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 06:39 PM

QUOTE (Nick Soapdish @ Jan 20 2010, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And it heavily subsidizes the cost of that health insurance for anybody that is up to about 4x the poverty rate. The health care bill allows insurance companies to sell across state lines so it breaks that state-by-state monopoly. That's part of why the public option was important because it would be another hedge against that monopoly (more of an oligopoly) and high insurance rates, but it also introduces competition and that's bad so the Republicans in the Gang of Six flat out refused it (and many Democrats also disliked it).

Personally, I'm happy with the health insurance that I have. It's provided by my job and the only coverage that I'd be able to get unless I paid out of pocket (and that coverage was bad - way out of my price range or offering virtually no protection). I don't expect the health care bill to do anything for my health care. If it lowers costs, my work will just pay less; they won't lower the amount that I chip in, although it's possible that it means that they won't raise it. But it took me ten years to get this.


The Republicans don't necessarily hate competition. They simply think the public option isn't genuine competition, isn't intended to be so, and is nothing but a subterfuge for an eventual single payer system.

One way in which a company can obtain/enforce a monopoly is to underprice a good so much that competitors can't match it because they're either damned with (1) charging a price where they are forced to eat of loss and go under or (2) not match the price and lose the customers anyway. The monopooly company can do that because they can eat the loss and still survive.

I'm not saying the Dems intended to do that, but, on the other hand, what's to stop them? The government's one entity that's not required to produce a profit. It doesn't help that some Dems, like Barney Frank, have said that a single payer is where they'd like to ultimate end up.

QUOTE
you pay a fine if you do not have health insurance...if you do not have health insurance...is because you can't afford it, or you don't like the premiums


As Nick mentioned, the Bill susidizes those people. The fine itself is problematc though. Insurance companies want it high for obvious reasons. The higher the fine, the more incentive there is to buy insurance. They got pissed off when it was low because if it is below the cost of the premium, you'd pay the fine not the premium. This course was further incentivized by the portion that prohibits rejecting people because of pre-existing conditions.

If they cannot turn you away because of that, would not you incentive be to pay the small fine and then when you get sick, buy the insurance? It's a disaster waiting to happen for any insurance company because it minimizes what they make in premiums and maximizes what they pay out. Naturally, this would push premiums up and would be a sure fire way to force all, but probably the largest of insurers, out of business.

#622 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:47 PM

QUOTE (Nate River @ Jan 20 2010, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Republicans don't necessarily hate competition. They simply think the public option isn't genuine competition, isn't intended to be so, and is nothing but a subterfuge for an eventual single payer system.

One way in which a company can obtain/enforce a monopoly is to underprice a good so much that competitors can't match it because they're either damned with (1) charging a price where they are forced to eat of loss and go under or (2) not match the price and lose the customers anyway. The monopooly company can do that because they can eat the loss and still survive.

I'm not saying the Dems intended to do that, but, on the other hand, what's to stop them? The government's one entity that's not required to produce a profit. It doesn't help that some Dems, like Barney Frank, have said that a single payer is where they'd like to ultimate end up.


If the Republicans seriously think that any of that is going to happen in the next generation or two, they haven't been paying attention to the Democrats over the last couple decades and are seriously overrating their competence and solidarity. And we're both overgeneralizing with what the Republicans (and Democrats) think although I think I was pretty well inline for the three in the Gang of Six. They weren't willing to accept any kind of possibility of a public option even if rates continued to climb or tying it to Medicare+ rates.

And if the Republicans are working in fear of what an extreme minority of Democrats (maybe a quarter?) are hoping to accomplish, what would be the consequences of the Democrats doing the same with Republican initiatives and their extreme minorities? Neither party should be acting out of fear of their own minorities or the minorities of the other side.

QUOTE (Nate River @ Jan 20 2010, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As Nick mentioned, the Bill susidizes those people. The fine itself is problematc though. Insurance companies want it high for obvious reasons. The higher the fine, the more incentive there is to buy insurance. They got pissed off when it was low because if it is below the cost of the premium, you'd pay the fine not the premium. This course was further incentivized by the portion that prohibits rejecting people because of pre-existing conditions.

If they cannot turn you away because of that, would not you incentive be to pay the small fine and then when you get sick, buy the insurance? It's a disaster waiting to happen for any insurance company because it minimizes what they make in premiums and maximizes what they pay out. Naturally, this would push premiums up and would be a sure fire way to force all, but probably the largest of insurers, out of business.


Well, nearly 90% of Americans already have insurance, most through work or the government (Medicare and Medicaid) so we're only talking about a relatively small number unless you think that Americans will refuse their current insurance policies. And that's only a good bet if it's a serious long term injury. I could've applied for insurance after I broke my leg and gotten it, but by the time the policy comes through, I still would've had to pay nearly a grand for X-rays, doctor visits, etc. Waiting a week or longer wouldn't have been an attractive option.

Plus, there's a lot to be said for being able to visit the doctor and get regular medical care. I was paying for a cheap, but lousy insurance policy. It would've been only slightly greater than the fine, but I still got some benefits with co-pays on meds. That was basically the only benefits that I got because I had a high deductible and low ceiling and unless I hit something close to the sweet spot, I'd either go bankrupt from a medical emergency or not hit the deductible. Most of the people that don't currently have insurance, don't have it because they can't afford it. When offered the choice between getting insurance with subsidies or paying a fine, I'm confident that most will go for getting insured. I'm sure that some will feel that they still can't afford it or will choose to make that gamble with their family's health, but it'll be an extreme minority.

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:10 PM

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Yes...after many years of Democratic leadership...even under the Clinton administration...African Americans are still marginalized based on the color of their skin. Im not saying that the Republicans have been good, im just saying...the Democrats haven't been better.

And yet, that hasn't stopped people of color for voting for democrats in DROVES. Most of the racist democrats/dixiecrats are in the south, and more conservative than the typical ones that run for the presidency.

QUOTE
The Republicans can get the Hispanic vote (or a sizable chunk of it) back pretty easily. Lots of Hispanics have fairly conservative values, but they get turned off by the anti-immigrant rhetoric - not that it's exclusive to Republicans, but the further right and Tea Party block are particularly virulent about it.

The hispanic vote, outside of Cubans, never really was a reliable bloc of the Republican Party, although the Bush administration made some impressive gains during its presidency. While I'm sure you have issues with him, I think Bill Maher said it best:
"There is no reason why hispanics cannot be a reliable bloc for the Republican Party. They're very religious, hard working, and conservative on many values issues. My guess why the Republicans don't want to let them in...is because they're too dark."

And the liberalism is dead isn't exactly accurate. As Nick pointed out, most of the disapproval of Obama and the Democrats stems mostly from them not going far enough (at least, were voters who lean Democratic are concerned), and young people tend to be more progressive than their parents (while most of them do moderate as they get older, their political ideology rarely makes a 180 change from then). I personally think that whether a country tends to vote more liberal or conservative changes throughout time, and if we're not on another liberal trend, I'd say we're coming out of a conservative one. Of course, if democrats want to win, they still need to campaign like no tomorrow...or borrow Obama's political abilities until they reach their goal.

As for what the democrats (or to be fair, the government) should do about health care now, maybe it's best to use a system similar to Japan or Switzerland. Healthcare in neither nation is nationalized, but insurance companies have very strict price controls, and they're strictly non-profit. All citizens are required to have them, but if they can't afford it, the government gives them the money necessary to do so. It's probably the best way to go, since even a superb health bill would still raise the deficit, and changing from the system we have now to one similar to England would shake up a lot of things in America.

And while I'm late in mentioning this...did anyone see the clips of Glen Beck interviewing Sarah Palin? She REALLY did not look like she wanted to be there (she wasn't even trying to smile!) And Glen Beck was being downright creepy (moreso than usual). He sounded like a stalker, and even though I am the ultimate anti-palin fan, I'd hope for her safety if I hear that she files a restraining order on Beck.

As for Brown...his previous occupation was a centerfold model. Trust me, I had a good look. Too good. sick.gif

#624 Strangelove

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:55 PM

QUOTE
As for Brown...his previous occupation was a centerfold model. Trust me, I had a good look. Too good. sick.gif


lol...still he won, and the end always justifies the means. If they wanted health reform, and the Obama agenda...they would have voted Martha in.

Edited by Strangelove, 21 January 2010 - 12:57 PM.

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#625 Nate River

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:25 PM

QUOTE
And while I'm late in mentioning this...did anyone see the clips of Glen Beck interviewing Sarah Palin? She REALLY did not look like she wanted to be there (she wasn't even trying to smile!) And Glen Beck was being downright creepy (moreso than usual). He sounded like a stalker, and even though I am the ultimate anti-palin fan, I'd hope for her safety if I hear that she files a restraining order on Beck.


Nope, don't watch FOX news or Glen Beck.

QUOTE
As for Brown...his previous occupation was a centerfold model. Trust me, I had a good look. Too good. sick.gif


Yeah, he posed nude in the 1980's. It was out there even before the election. It doesn't to have bothered many people.

#626 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 06:36 PM

Hamas accepts Israel's right to exist'


This is great new, for them. I am socked that I'd see this day.

#627 Nate River

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 06:38 PM

QUOTE (RyrineaHaruno @ Jan 21 2010, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hamas accepts Israel's right to exist'


This is great new, for them. I am socked that I'd see this day.


Let's hope this is more than a token victory. I care less about what they say and far more about what they do.

#628 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 07:12 PM

QUOTE (Nate River @ Jan 21 2010, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Let's hope this is more than a token victory. I care less about what they say and far more about what they do.


I agree, that I care far more about what they do.

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 07:50 PM

QUOTE (Strangelove @ Jan 21 2010, 04:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
lol...still he won, and the end always justifies the means. If they wanted health reform, and the Obama agenda...they would have voted Martha in.

The end justifies the means? Really? So, if hypothetically speaking, you were a terrorist, and I knew you were in a certain country but couldn't get to you with subtle means, I would be in the right to nuke an entire country just to get you? I'm not really sure how you would apply this statement to the Massachusetts election.

#630 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:32 PM

Obama to Propose Limits on Risks Taken by Banks

#631 Strangelove

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:48 PM

QUOTE (RyrineaHaruno @ Jan 21 2010, 07:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hamas accepts Israel's right to exist'


This is great new, for them. I am socked that I'd see this day.



WHOA!!!! never saw that coming biggrin.gif
QUOTE
The end justifies the means? Really? So, if hypothetically speaking, you were a terrorist, and I knew you were in a certain country but couldn't get to you with subtle means, I would be in the right to nuke an entire country just to get you? I'm not really sure how you would apply this statement to the Massachusetts election.


Yes, if you do not agree with America, it is America's right to bomb all countries... rolleyes.gif

And it applies to Massachusetts election, because even by being the most liberal state, it ended electing a Republican to replace the seat of the late senator Ted Kennedy. In the end which was his victory, was justified by the means that he ran his campaign, against health reform.

Edited by Strangelove, 21 January 2010 - 11:51 PM.

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#632 Nate River

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:09 AM

QUOTE (Strangelove @ Jan 21 2010, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
WHOA!!!! never saw that coming biggrin.gif


Yes, if you do not agree with America, it is America's right to bomb all countries... rolleyes.gif

And it applies to Massachusetts election, because even by being the most liberal state, it ended electing a Republican to replace the seat of the late senator Ted Kennedy. In the end which was his victory, was justified by the means that he ran his campaign, against health reform.


That still makes no sense unless you think campaigning against such a thing is bad, but that electing him was still a good thing.

The saying means that the goodness of the end justifies the atrocity you committed trying to achieve that end.

#633 Pite

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:57 AM

Well regarding this day's Supreme Court decision. I am appalled. This basically lets corporations to pump millions of "funding" money to political candidates without restrictions. Basically big corporations can give as much "funding" money to politicians as they want. That sea of "funding" money won't probably influence ANY legislation won't it?
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#634 Nate River

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:36 AM

QUOTE (Pite @ Jan 21 2010, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well regarding this day's Supreme Court decision. I am appalled. This basically lets corporations to pump millions of "funding" money to political candidates without restrictions. Basically big corporations can give as much "funding" money to politicians as they want. That sea of "funding" money won't probably influence ANY legislation won't it?


Besides a personal animus against corporations, why are you appalled? You seem more upset about the entity that benefits from this than anything specifically related to first amendment principles.

For the record, it also allows labor unions to do the same.

The great myth of McCain/Feingold is that it did anything to take the money out of politics. It merely redirected it. And Barack Obama destroyed the myth that serious adherence to it has anything to do with principle.

#635 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:44 AM

I just found that the Israeli newspaper The Jerusalem post took the man words out of context.



It was too good to be true.

Edited by RyrineaHaruno, 22 January 2010 - 02:44 AM.


#636 socermania2

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE (Nate River @ Jan 22 2010, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Besides a personal animus against corporations, why are you appalled? You seem more upset about the entity that benefits from this than anything specifically related to first amendment principles.

For the record, it also allows labor unions to do the same.

The great myth of McCain/Feingold is that it did anything to take the money out of politics. It merely redirected it. And Barack Obama destroyed the myth that serious adherence to it has anything to do with principle.


Politicians are already dealing with trouble from 3rd party companies and self-interest groups. Basically, they can shove anything down our throats.

And its not only American companies that can do this. Any flippin company in the world can spend money on campaigns. How does a Saudi Arabian company help you.

This is just making a bad deal worse.
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#637 Nate River

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 09:17 PM

QUOTE (socermania2 @ Jan 22 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Politicians are already dealing with trouble from 3rd party companies and self-interest groups. Basically, they can shove anything down our throats.

And its not only American companies that can do this. Any flippin company in the world can spend money on campaigns. How does a Saudi Arabian company help you.

This is just making a bad deal worse.


Then either change the constitution or elect politicians with a stronger resolve.

Second, I can see no basis for excluding corporations specifically, from lobbying politicians and spending on advertising, unless organizations (as opposed to individuals) are not entitled to free speech protections or that spending money on political advertising and lobbying efforts doesn't constitute speech. And I can promise the latter isn't the case.

I also reiterate my previous point. Like Pite, you seem upset, not because of anything related to the concept to free speech, but because you don't like the speaker who benefits from the rulling.

This rulling lets Labor Unions, non-profits, and so on, but I haven't heard anyone whining about that; only "evil" corporations.

I don't support this ruling because I like corporations or the things they say. For me, that is utterly irrelevant. I support it because I am adamently pro-free speech, regardless of my opinion of the person uttering the words.

#638 Pite

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 02:25 AM

But consider the fact that most contributions won't come from non profits or any organizations besides unions and large companies. And I do not think its a matter of free speech. Free speech works only when my voice is heard and theirs. Not only theirs.

Now politicians with billions of money from large interest groups can ignore what some people say and just use the media to manipulate people into thinking that he agrees with what "We The People" are saying.

I concur with your opinion on free speech. However the fact that they are able to limit my influence on a political candidate to a letter that will be ignored is a infraction on MY right to speak and influence a politician.
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#639 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 08:24 AM

QUOTE (Strangelove @ Jan 21 2010, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
WHOA!!!! never saw that coming biggrin.gif


Yes, if you do not agree with America, it is America's right to bomb all countries... rolleyes.gif

And it applies to Massachusetts election, because even by being the most liberal state, it ended electing a Republican to replace the seat of the late senator Ted Kennedy. In the end which was his victory, was justified by the means that he ran his campaign, against health reform.


I still think that it's illogical to argue that election results in a single state can be extrapolated as the viewpoints of an entire nation. Particularly when the Democratic candidate ran such a shoddy campaign (as described by Jon Stewart in the same episode of The Daily Show that you referred to earlier).

And he was specifically campaigning against universal health care in other states because it might endanger the universal health care program that they had in Massachusetts. So he's not exactly banking on a lack of support for universal health care. He's just using the "we got ours" argument.

QUOTE (Nate River @ Jan 22 2010, 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then either change the constitution or elect politicians with a stronger resolve.

Second, I can see no basis for excluding corporations specifically, from lobbying politicians and spending on advertising, unless organizations (as opposed to individuals) are not entitled to free speech protections or that spending money on political advertising and lobbying efforts doesn't constitute speech. And I can promise the latter isn't the case.

I also reiterate my previous point. Like Pite, you seem upset, not because of anything related to the concept to free speech, but because you don't like the speaker who benefits from the rulling.

This rulling lets Labor Unions, non-profits, and so on, but I haven't heard anyone whining about that; only "evil" corporations.

I don't support this ruling because I like corporations or the things they say. For me, that is utterly irrelevant. I support it because I am adamently pro-free speech, regardless of my opinion of the person uttering the words.


The issue isn't specifically that the constitution is wrong. The problem for me is the precedent (from over a hundred years ago) that corporations are people. It made sense for the limited case that it was relating to, but doesn't for broader issues. The Supreme Court is just taking the position that it should be extended some, but not all the way. Otherwise, they would also be arguing that corporations should be allowed to marry (or perhaps that they shouldn't be allowed to merge until they were at least 18 or whatever the age of consent is in their respective state). They wouldn't be allowed to merge with a corporation of the same sex. They could be jailed for their crimes (rather than just a fall guy). They could vote.

I'm fine with free speech. But the Supreme Court is taking the saying that money talks a bit too literally. Money isn't equivalent to speech. If it is, my free speech is being greatly hampered by the government. (Yeah, I read where you disagree above.) If we're going to argue that money is equivalent to speech, it's enshrining the idea that the rich have louder voices than the poor. That's already the case, but now it's backed up by law. I know that I'm fighting a losing battle here. The United States already has a greater disparity between the rich and poor than any other developed nation.

And yeah, I don't think that organizations are entitled to the same constitutional rights as individuals. They're still able to spend money. After all, they're composed of individuals except that some may be composed primarily of non-citizens. However, I don't really have a problem with a Saudi oil billionaire or a Japanese car company or a Chinese computer manufacturing plant not having the same rights as me.

#640 Sakura Blossoms

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 10:43 AM

I find this very very interesting. I bet Chris Matthews wishes he'd stated his opinion a little differently, though it wouldn't change what he obviously truly feels:

http://news.yahoo.co...ckness_analysis




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