749 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: Naruto vs. Sasuke shouldn't be the final battle as it lacks any real black and white with all around grey area of a reason. Instead, it should be a major battle that can segue to them reunited and work together to defeat a true final villain.

 

Agree or disagree?

[Dalton.T.R]

Statement: Naruto vs. Sasuke shouldn't be the final battle as it lacks any real black and white with all around grey area of a reason. Instead, it should be a major battle that can segue to them reunited and work together to defeat a true final villain.

 

Agree or disagree?

I agree with that. Really, that fight needs to be re-written. It was a joke. But I guess that makes it fit right in with everything else that happened after the Pein ark. 

[Nate River]

Statement: Naruto vs. Sasuke shouldn't be the final battle as it lacks any real black and white with all around grey area of a reason. Instead, it should be a major battle that can segue to them reunited and work together to defeat a true final villain.

 

Agree or disagree?

 

Disagree.

 

Virtually all of Part 2 was attempting to set up a clash of ideologies that was finally settled with their fight. That it failed to do this isn't enough to say it shouldn't have been the final battle. Even Part 1 was setting Naruto v. Sasuke as the final battle. 

 

The primary argument against it is Sasuke's redemption. In this case you got the odd spectacle of Sasuke being "redeemed" despite his clearly selfish and self-serving motivations (thus an ally of convenience and not a  genuine redemption) and fighting Naruto anyway. I guess Naruto could have redeemed him but then Naruto wasn't the only one he wronged. Redemption part was a giant cluster.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

 

I agree, but to be fair fanfic writers have a lot more freedom in both direction and time constraints. There are some damn good fanfic authors out their and in almost every series I've seen there is at least one who does a superior job with the source material. So, I don't like to dump on Kishimoto for this.

 

 

 

 

Disagree. 

 

Kaguya was terrible. She was Kishimoto's answer to the corner he had written himself into and as such she had no character. It's an insult to characters to call her one. Black Zetsu largely spoke for her (and he was barely a character). There was simply nothing there. That said, if that had been the one blemish of the war arc it would have been an error, but a forgivable one. 

 

The war is awful because of the systematic trashing of many of the characters and story lines, the cheapening of death, the facelessness of the enemy, the loss of control on power levels and so on. Even if Kaguya had depth it wouldn't have saved the war arc.

The War Arc can't even truly be called a "war". The previous wars for the past generations have had profound effects on various characters; Itachi, Nagato, Konan, Yahiko, Obito, Hiruzen, Danzo, Minato, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, etc.. because they were freaking WARS! People DIED, people SACRIFICED, people and the world CHANGED (not always for the better) each time. That is what (world) war DOES.

This "war" doesn't leave anything except almost entirely positive experiences for this generation (and even a previous generation or two) overall - like getting emotional closure by the convenience of being able to literally communicate with the dead (Sasuke with Itachi, Tsunade with Dan, Hiashi with Hizashi, etc.) Pretty much the only living enemies that the protagonists had to face in the War Arc being Obito, Kabuto, Madara (later on), and Kaguya, with the rest being just soulless White Zetsu clone drones and Edo Tensei zombies. Even Black Zetsu couldn't really be called a "living being" with how his origin appeared; Obitto and Kabuto get stupidly redeemed (while also conveniently undoing Edo Tensei) while Madara was just thrown under the bus for Kaguya, and Kaguya simply being sealed away, and Madara didn't even have to be killed by the protagonists either. Our protagonists never had to actually kill a single living person throughout the entire arc while any of the extremely few deaths that should have had more emotional impact (Ino-Shika-Cho's fathers) were pretty much just completely glossed over and are never addressed later on, and thus they can't be said to actually know, much less have experienced war like previous generations. (Even Asuma's death feels more meaningful, and that's because, at the very least, his students saw the light leave his eyes as he died and thus it had a lasting effect on them.)

It was obvious that everything was being done so our main characters could remain squeaky "clean" by never having to truly dirty their hands while also not having to change, and they even go as far as to do whatever they could to ensure that there were little to mostly NO consequences for it..

 

Statement: Naruto vs. Sasuke shouldn't be the final battle as it lacks any real black and white with all around grey area of a reason. Instead, it should be a major battle that can segue to them reunited and work together to defeat a true final villain.

 

Agree or disagree?

Disagree.

Being the final fight in itself isn't a problem but rather all the stuff surrounding it and getting all mucked up while leading up to it is what made the final fight come off as underwhelming and lacking any emotional depth or anything.

[VanitasDS76491]

Statement: Naruto vs. Sasuke shouldn't be the final battle as it lacks any real black and white with all around grey area of a reason. Instead, it should be a major battle that can segue to them reunited and work together to defeat a true final villain.

 

Agree or disagree?

Both kind of cause really the "final" fight was really pointless since Sasuke seemed to becoming back already. The Fight it self was dumb and a ripoff of a much better one that being Old Snake vs Liquid Ocelot form MGS 4 don't if I've said it before. The outcome was dumb and shouldn't Sasuke be dead if he lost that much blood and slept for that long. Technically the fight was a draw since both passed out after the final attack. 

[Bail o' Lies]

The War Arc can't even truly be called a "war". The previous wars for the past generations have had profound effects on various characters; Itachi, Nagato, Konan, Yahiko, Obito, Hiruzen, Danzo, Minato, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, etc.. because they were freaking WARS! People DIED, people SACRIFICED, people and the world CHANGED (not always for the better) each time. That is what (world) war DOES.

This "war" doesn't leave anything except almost entirely positive experiences for this generation (and even a previous generation or two) overall - like getting emotional closure by the convenience of being able to literally communicate with the dead (Sasuke with Itachi, Tsunade with Dan, Hiashi with Hizashi, etc.) Pretty much the only living enemies that the protagonists had to face in the War Arc being Obito, Kabuto, Madara (later on), and Kaguya, with the rest being just soulless White Zetsu clone drones and Edo Tensei zombies. Even Black Zetsu couldn't really be called a "living being" with how his origin appeared; Obitto and Kabuto get stupidly redeemed (while also conveniently undoing Edo Tensei) while Madara was just thrown under the bus for Kaguya, and Kaguya simply being sealed away, and Madara didn't even have to be killed by the protagonists either. Our protagonists never had to actually kill a single living person throughout the entire arc while any of the extremely few deaths that should have had more emotional impact (Ino-Shika-Cho's fathers) were pretty much just completely glossed over and are never addressed later on, and thus they can't be said to actually know, much less have experienced war like previous generations. (Even Asuma's death feels more meaningful, and that's because, at the very least, his students saw the light leave his eyes as he died and thus it had a lasting effect on them.)

It was obvious that everything was being done so our main characters could remain squeaky "clean" by never having to truly dirty their hands while also not having to change, and they even go as far as to do whatever they could to ensure that there were little to mostly NO consequences for it..

You can even compare it to the war arc in one piece. Yes I think that one was shorter, but it had a much bigger impact because of Ace's death on the story and the impacted it had on Luffy the main character. In comparison the biggest death in Naruto's war arc was Negi's. Which was quickly glossed over by the nH fans and hinata because of the fact that she was able to hold Naruto's "big strong warm hands that made her feel safe" and to Naruto he was just another person that died for his sake to remind him that he couldn't stop fighting because of their sacrifices. Even the plot seemed to almost completely forget about him after his death for the most part.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 29 May 2016 - 01:01 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Statement: Naruto vs. Sasuke shouldn't be the final battle as it lacks any real black and white with all around grey area of a reason. Instead, it should be a major battle that can segue to them reunited and work together to defeat a true final villain.

 

Agree or disagree?

It had to be the final fight because that was what part 2 was always leading to. But it really needed to go more in-depth with what were the differences between Naruto and Sasuke in various ways and needed more time for the fight. Instead of being rushed by the fact that Hinata's Scarf movie was coming out.

[rocci]

@halfdemoninuyasha
It's still a war even if doesn't has any negative effect to the character.

@touken
I agree and I disagree.

[TouKen4Life3g]

@halfdemoninuyasha
It's still a war even if doesn't has any negative effect to the character.

@touken
I agree and I disagree.

What do you mean?

[rocci]

What do you mean?

I disagree that their fight should not become the final fight, because they already build up to do it.

I agree their fight could be second last fight only to fight orochimaru as the final villain and close the story.

The problem with the fight is for the hype it build for 2/3 of the manga, it only last for 5 chapters or 3 if you only count the fight.
It should be atleast a volume or 10 chapters. Ideally it should be one and a half or two volumes.
The fight isn't spectacular either. The first vote is better imo.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I think I have to disagree but I did want to say I agree. After long process of thinking, I thought to myself that it is possible to pull off this type of story well, but it's somewhat hard to say what is the main problem to why it failed. Part of me want to say is because the series went on too long with minimum level of brotherhood background, so the longer it drags, the more it becomes not a big deal. The other part of me is that Naruto and Sasuke should legit hate each other with a ounce of love.

Of course, I would have Sasuke getting his own army and do what Boruto most likely aiming for. I think another problem is that Sasuke kept in anti-hero for too long that it was hard to understand his character as his story becomes more incoherent. If you can't make it work, just don't make it the grand finale. Otherwise, good for it. It could have worked.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: One of the major flaw of War Arc is Naruto shining too greatly. Naruto hasn't gotten his shining as much as he needed in part 2, including having his own battle, and while Pain is arguably the first major one, he continues to sideline until War Arc. While he finally shines, it took away multiple opportunities for side characters to shine, instead resorting to become cheerleaders, and by the end, left with Naruto and Sasuke to do most of the work.

Agree or disagree?

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

In general, I disagree, but it's more because of HOW Naruto was made to "shine" that was the problem.

Obviously, being the title character, Naruto SHOULD be made to shine more often and/or brighter than others (of course, not at the cost of developing other characters too since they're "support" characters for a reason), but the way they just brushed aside the concept of hard work, you make your own fate/destiny, no shortcuts, etc. and simply...well..did all of that with Naruto was just a huge stain on the arc and I feel it started with the way they seemed to have Naruto just stop any sort of continuation of his Elemental Training and grasping his own power rather than relying on Kurama's chakra all the time (which, along with the whole BS chakra reincarnation crap with Ashura, is exactly what he ended up doing in the end).

I'd say one of, if not the most blatant example of Naruto's "shining" just overtaking everyone in the wrong way was how we never get to see the actual fight between Eight Gates Gai and Rikudo Madara. It literally starts and then cuts away to Naruto and Sasuke being handed more power by Hagaromo's chakra ghost, and by the time we get back, Gai's already on the ground, almost dead and we see a clearly damaged Madara who even happily admits that only Hashirama had ever been able to give him such an enjoyable fight before, meaning there a clearly epic fight had just taken place, but they just HAD to shove Naruto and Sasuke's very flawed "shining" moments down our throats rather than actually show a supposedly enjoyable fight that actually resulted in Madara being the most damaged we had ever seen since he first appeared (not counting his own self-inflicted mutilation from his meteor). Even Naruto and Sasuke with their new powers couldn't seem to do jack to Madara overall during their subsequent fight.

[VanitasDS76491]

The War Arc can't even truly be called a "war". The previous wars for the past generations have had profound effects on various characters; Itachi, Nagato, Konan, Yahiko, Obito, Hiruzen, Danzo, Minato, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, etc.. because they were freaking WARS! People DIED, people SACRIFICED, people and the world CHANGED (not always for the better) each time. That is what (world) war DOES.

This "war" doesn't leave anything except almost entirely positive experiences for this generation (and even a previous generation or two) overall - like getting emotional closure by the convenience of being able to literally communicate with the dead (Sasuke with Itachi, Tsunade with Dan, Hiashi with Hizashi, etc.) Pretty much the only living enemies that the protagonists had to face in the War Arc being Obito, Kabuto, Madara (later on), and Kaguya, with the rest being just soulless White Zetsu clone drones and Edo Tensei zombies. Even Black Zetsu couldn't really be called a "living being" with how his origin appeared; Obitto and Kabuto get stupidly redeemed (while also conveniently undoing Edo Tensei) while Madara was just thrown under the bus for Kaguya, and Kaguya simply being sealed away, and Madara didn't even have to be killed by the protagonists either. Our protagonists never had to actually kill a single living person throughout the entire arc while any of the extremely few deaths that should have had more emotional impact (Ino-Shika-Cho's fathers) were pretty much just completely glossed over and are never addressed later on, and thus they can't be said to actually know, much less have experienced war like previous generations. (Even Asuma's death feels more meaningful, and that's because, at the very least, his students saw the light leave his eyes as he died and thus it had a lasting effect on them.)

It was obvious that everything was being done so our main characters could remain squeaky "clean" by never having to truly dirty their hands while also not having to change, and they even go as far as to do whatever they could to ensure that there were little to mostly NO consequences for it..

 

Disagree.

Being the final fight in itself isn't a problem but rather all the stuff surrounding it and getting all mucked up while leading up to it is what made the final fight come off as underwhelming and lacking any emotional depth or anything.

Sad when a Call of Duty game can make a better war story that Naruto and Call of Duty kills off several characters we get to know through out the game with each installment. I mean Soap died in Modern Warfare 3 but we followed him through two other games and knew his personality and his friendship with Price. Or Gaz and Bowman form Modern Warfare 1 and Black Ops they died towards the end of the game and it was emotional since we got to know them and it shows not everyone survives war. Were all Naruto did was talk all the damn time. to quote Tommy Lee Jones form Captain America: The First Avenger "You don't win wars with Kindness." Pretty sure the thousand year blood war arc in Bleach has had more deaths in it than the fourth "war" in Naruto. And the deaths in the final arc of Bleach actually mattered and affected the story.

Edited by VanitasDS76491, 31 May 2016 - 11:10 PM.

[Nate River]

One of the major flaw of War Arc is Naruto shining too greatly. Naruto hasn't gotten his shining as much as he needed in part 2, including having his own battle, and while Pain is arguably the first major one, he continues to sideline until War Arc. While he finally shines, it took away multiple opportunities for side characters to shine, instead resorting to become cheerleaders, and by the end, left with Naruto and Sasuke to do most of the work.

 
Disagree.
 
As the primary characters you'd expect them to do that. The set up the chunnin exams worked on this front because it allowed the story to isolated characters for a limited time without completely taking over the plot. They present their conflict and resolve under the tournament umbrella. Regardless of whether the tournament finished or not you knew the series would circle back to Naruto. We got looks at others without eliminating Naruto's role.
 
The war arc flopped on this. Established characters got cameos for the most part without actual development. We didn't learn anything new. They didn't evolve past problems or flaws. This was expect as they had already done so long ago. For the most part the focus was largely on characters who had been mentioned but never introduced or were characters who had been tragically cut down prior to the series. Aside from cheapening the tragedy of death it also spend time developing characters no one really cared about and had no impact on the plot. They were side issues for side characters. Did Tsuande really need that resolution with Dan? Hell, no. Did we care all that much about the leader of Iron. No. 
 
Early in the series, the rookie nine were introduced earlier and needed development. A limited cast needed expansion. None of that was true in the war arc.
 
As for Naruto taking the shinning light, the problem really is not that he was one, but that he was not.  He was lost in the cluster with many others until he had to face Obito. That fight culminated in one of the most indefensible lines I've ever come across in literature. With Pain, Naruto swallowed his natural impulse because principle was more important, but he was still human. He still could not forgive Pain for what he did. With Obito, Naruto ceased being a person and more of a walking ideal. And a cheap at that. Naruto redeems people because that what he does. That is what it felt like. Dood murdered his friend to prove a point. Started a world war and was behind enormous amounts of suffering. Obito was a lot of things, but "cool guy" wasn't one of them. Who the hell would say that? It comes across as "well, he helped me a little and we shared the same goal so we're cool."
 
Part 2 was set up to be a clash of ideologies. Naruto became a cheap caricature of one and Sasuke never really had one. He wanted everyone to spend such energy hating him that they wouldn't hate each other. Huh? Not all that much a philosophy and not one anyone really can identify with. It was probably better for Sasuke's hatred to remain more personal. People could identify with that at least. Going global on the ideas each character represented was a bad idea and that failed horribly.

[Bail o' Lies]

In general, I disagree, but it's more because of HOW Naruto was made to "shine" that was the problem.

Obviously, being the title character, Naruto SHOULD be made to shine more often and/or brighter than others (of course, not at the cost of developing other characters too since they're "support" characters for a reason), but the way they just brushed aside the concept of hard work, you make your own fate/destiny, no shortcuts, etc. and simply...well..did all of that with Naruto was just a huge stain on the arc and I feel it started with the way they seemed to have Naruto just stop any sort of continuation of his Elemental Training and grasping his own power rather than relying on Kurama's chakra all the time (which, along with the whole BS chakra reincarnation crap with Ashura, is exactly what he ended up doing in the end).

I'd say one of, if not the most blatant example of Naruto's "shining" just overtaking everyone in the wrong way was how we never get to see the actual fight between Eight Gates Gai and Rikudo Madara. It literally starts and then cuts away to Naruto and Sasuke being handed more power by Hagaromo's chakra ghost, and by the time we get back, Gai's already on the ground, almost dead and we see a clearly damaged Madara who even happily admits that only Hashirama had ever been able to give him such an enjoyable fight before, meaning there a clearly epic fight had just taken place, but they just HAD to shove Naruto and Sasuke's very flawed "shining" moments down our throats rather than actually show a supposedly enjoyable fight that actually resulted in Madara being the most damaged we had ever seen since he first appeared (not counting his own self-inflicted mutilation from his meteor). Even Naruto and Sasuke with their new powers couldn't seem to do jack to Madara overall during their subsequent fight.

Do they even use most of the powers they got from him most of seemed like it was only temporary powers that were gone by their final fight.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 
Disagree.
 
As the primary characters you'd expect them to do that. The set up the chunnin exams worked on this front because it allowed the story to isolated characters for a limited time without completely taking over the plot. They present their conflict and resolve under the tournament umbrella. Regardless of whether the tournament finished or not you knew the series would circle back to Naruto. We got looks at others without eliminating Naruto's role.
 
The war arc flopped on this. Established characters got cameos for the most part without actual development. We didn't learn anything new. They didn't evolve past problems or flaws. This was expect as they had already done so long ago. For the most part the focus was largely on characters who had been mentioned but never introduced or were characters who had been tragically cut down prior to the series. Aside from cheapening the tragedy of death it also spend time developing characters no one really cared about and had no impact on the plot. They were side issues for side characters. Did Tsuande really need that resolution with Dan? Hell, no. Did we care all that much about the leader of Iron. No. 
 
Early in the series, the rookie nine were introduced earlier and needed development. A limited cast needed expansion. None of that was true in the war arc.
 
As for Naruto taking the shinning light, the problem really is not that he was one, but that he was not.  He was lost in the cluster with many others until he had to face Obito. That fight culminated in one of the most indefensible lines I've ever come across in literature. With Pain, Naruto swallowed his natural impulse because principle was more important, but he was still human. He still could not forgive Pain for what he did. With Obito, Naruto ceased being a person and more of a walking ideal. And a cheap at that. Naruto redeems people because that what he does. That is what it felt like. Dood murdered his friend to prove a point. Started a world war and was behind enormous amounts of suffering. Obito was a lot of things, but "cool guy" wasn't one of them. Who the hell would say that? It comes across as "well, he helped me a little and we shared the same goal so we're cool."
 
Part 2 was set up to be a clash of ideologies. Naruto became a cheap caricature of one and Sasuke never really had one. He wanted everyone to spend such energy hating him that they wouldn't hate each other. Huh? Not all that much a philosophy and not one anyone really can identify with. It was probably better for Sasuke's hatred to remain more personal. People could identify with that at least. Going global on the ideas each character represented was a bad idea and that failed horribly.

In terms of Tsunade and Dan, you'd think that would already be considered "resolved" back in part one when Tsunade decided to become Hokage and fulfilling both his and Nawaki's dreams in their place..

 

Do they even use most of the powers they got from him most of seemed like it was only temporary powers that were gone by their final fight.

Yeah, the last thing I can bother to remember on them using their power was just Sasuke using Chibaku Tensei on the other Biju. (Somehow able to do it eight times without any sort of noticeable drain on his suddenly-magically-gigantic chakra reserves, just like when he spammed/maintained the Mangekyo Sharingan, Amaterasu, and Susano'o at the Kage Summit and against Danzo even though he no longer had the Curse Seal to force out more chakra, which he needed just to barely "keep up" with Itachi.)

[Nate River]

In terms of Tsunade and Dan, you'd think that would already be considered "resolved" back in part one when Tsunade decided to become Hokage and fulfilling both his and Nawaki's dreams in their place..

 

Yeah, the last thing I can bother to remember on them using their power was just Sasuke using Chibaku Tensei on the other Biju. (Somehow able to do it eight times without any sort of noticeable drain on his suddenly-magically-gigantic chakra reserves, just like when he spammed/maintained the Mangekyo Sharingan, Amaterasu, and Susano'o at the Kage Summit and against Danzo even though he no longer had the Curse Seal to force out more chakra, which he needed just to barely "keep up" with Itachi.)

 

Closure, as you said in your earlier post, is a better word. Why she needed it by that point, who knows? Wasn't Naruto getting her to serve as Hokage and cease being a gambling alcoholic the result of closure? Didn't she her finally accept his death and move on? In Part 1. I have no idea why that was done. And he was able to float over to her before being dismissed as an Edo Tensei. How he had that power, who knows? It's a minor literary crime compared to other aspects, but its as I said, it was "development" that landed in the who gives a crap territory. Most of the side character development landed here. Well, to the extent that it constituted development. We gave a crap in the chunnin exams. This was just needless junk.

 

I know as Edo Tensei some people had to fight loved ones. I can't say I was moved. Or cared that much. If I recall people came to that conclusion pretty quickly. They were already dead and I don't remember learning a lot about the living because of it. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

I can't really agree but I can see what they mean. The major problem is how much Kishi cared for Naruto throughout part 2. Perhaps if it was a separate part rather than the same title, I can understand a bit, like you can say "this part is more about this and that." But since it remained as Naruto that already has a background, it only created frustration on how much it changed.

It is true that we had to wait until Pain Arc for Naruto to be in the center. Kakuzu could count but it was overlooked due to mainly focus on Team 10. So with War Arc, Naruto was like Cena: he's the wall that you shall not pass, he's the solution to all problems, and he's someone you can't level with.

I don't agree because I do believe you can fit in with everyone else in there, it's just that Kishi didn't do it right. When focused on others, it often feels uneventful. So it almost felt like the solution to spice it out is to have Naruto in all of the battlefield. That's a problem, Naruto literally handle everything alone. Otherwise, why do the clone. I know, that's his jutsu, but it often leaves a unwritten contradiction when display in a wrong way. So Kishi just screwed up.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: Out of the first five Hokages, Tsunade is the worst.

Agree or disagree?