687 replies to this topic

[FireFox]

Why do you purposely ommit things?

Your panes proves that he cares and...?
Your purposely ommitted that he stabbed Karin on the summit and showed clearly that he cares only about his goals, you also purposely ommitted the panel where he thinks about Team 7 and mirrors to team taka on this very same chapter.
You purposely ommit the part where kakashi asks Sasuke to see what is inside his own heart and K11 where there.

Yep Sasuke doesnt care about Kakashi, Sakura or whatever, but it's shown to us that is because they're in the middle of his goals, he wants to erase his own past to pursue his goals, and it's shown that he wants to drop it down like Orochimaru pointed out when they came back to the village.

"Sasuke has to come with terms about his feelings".
It doenst matter if he doesnt care or not, Kishimot already hinted he has feelings for them and this is why he's going to become good later and will accept it.

LOL what exactly do you have problem with my post i'm not saying he wont "get redeemed" ? And  i didn't ommit anything i could say the same thing about you . Not sure what you meant with your intro but OK i guess , and my point was that Sasuke's redemption is forced as hell and you can't have one if you regret nothing and don't care about anyone and what you have done simple as that . 

 

Like i said i didn't ommited anything i just showed you that even if he has goals he still cared , and with Karin even if he did that later (not that i justified what he did to her on the contrary  ) he sincerely  apologized  to her and that was the same Sasuke that we are seeing now the one who doesn't give any kitten to T7 besides Naruto so tell me how strong his feelings really are ?   

 

Yes he thinks of T7 as to gain a sense of teamwork what that is  , and previously he was about to kill them all and now he's not even bother whether they are dead or alive , to me it seems that he had feelings for them but whatever feelings he had they are lost now and that they were not any special to him if he is able to let them die . The only bond that is meaningful in T7 is Naruto .

 

Yeah and Sasuke said that they are all there laughing at Itachi's sacrifice how in the world is this a hint that Sasuke has feelings for them  just because they are somebody that he used to know no really how ? Don't exaggerate this and make it appear for what its not 

 

Sasuke wants to kill Naruto to erase his past hence cutting him in half the others are indifferent to him they hold no special meaning to him .

 

And for kitten sake's Sasuke is always goal oriented and selfish that is his character changing his POV doesn't mean change in his personality his goals will always be his main priority .  

 

And those feelings you say that are "hinted" are not strong as you make them be  you exaggerate them make them appear so Those feelings he has are little to none , the fact that his goals are more important to him then the lives of the people he has "feelings" for speaks volume about the strength  of his feelings for them  .

 

And in what world it doesn't matter if he cares or not but he has feelings then will you please explain me what his feelings are exactly if he's willing to kill them and let them die just for the sake of him proving a point  ? This is just ridiculous. 

 

The bolded accepting his past doesn't mean that he will love them be lovey dovey with them , have any special care for them , return to them   or anything like that its just means that he will acknowledge them as part of T7 that he will accept them that they exist and that they were all once upon a time a part of it . Also his past in Konoha isn't just T7 but the Uciha more then anything else this is what's haunting him and wants to erase because their death is the source of his pain  not freaking T7.

Edited by NarutoFireFoxUzumaki, 17 June 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[Dkey]

Pretty much what I've been saying for the last 6 posts. Kishimoto CAN write it, and he probably WILL write a Sasuke redemption but that doesn't mean I have to agree, like it, or accept it as good writing. Sasuke doesn't deserve it, Obito doesn't deserve to just go free, Orochimaru doesn't deserve to get away with his crap.

Its not acceptable to TEACH kids that no matter what you do, people will be accepting and love you because its an out right lie that does more damage to them then the truth does. The truth is you shouldn't treat the people who love you like crap. You shouldn't be angry, bitter and vengeful because it kills you and the people around you and if you ever decide to change its too late, you've done to much damage to get back what you had. 

Thats a better lesson to be teaching people then the one Kishimoto is trying to nail into everyone's head.

I mean, if we buy the crap that "Oh its a beautiful story about redemption and forgiveness..." You might as well just say that its acceptable for Orochimaru to use children and toss them aside like he does, that his experiments are acceptable and deserve no punishment, that his merciless murdering is A-okay. Or that Obito causing a war, killing Minato and Kushina and causing a crap ton of people to die indirectly and directly is also acceptable.

Those actions are not acceptable. Its disturbing to see them tossed under the rug of forgiveness without real consequences like they never even mattered to begin with. 

 

 

I already talked about this too earlier. but yea; there is no "Secretly he cares!" or "he's lying to himself!" if he cared even in his heart of hearts, in the depths of his mind and the tattered pieces of his soul HIS BODY WOULD HAVE MOVED. its an instinctive thing, no thoughts necessary. 

It didn't, he didn't he don't GAF. Its canon, that's all there is to it. 


 

 

Actually this world could do well with some more forgiveness in the world.

 

Kishi isn't teaching anyone that whatever you do people will accept. He is kinda stretching the idea of nakama a usual theme in this types of manga but still it's a good theme for a medium tailored for kids to understand. Most likely he is writing about his belief that any person can be reached and even reasoned with. It's a wonderful idea to teach kids. Maybe just maybe some of them will try to find other ways of solving the conflicts of their lives by focusing on resolution and not confrontation. Even those that wrong you on more unforgettable things can be forgiven. It's not necessarily a kiss and make up forgiveness but keeping that anger inside of you creates monsters. Heck Kishi even talked about the passionate side of love when he decided to give Uchiha that sickness where they go crazy if they lose someone they love.

 

Anyway no one is asking anyone to like or dislike the story. It has it's flaws but despite those flaws it still on track with what Kishi was talking about from the start.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well to be fair, at the very least, he's exploring each type of situation in real life, rather friendship is key and that's it. Actually, I'm stunned that they didn't hammer will of fire to the core.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

Actually this world could do well with some more forgiveness in the world.

 

More forgiveness does not equal UNLIMITED forgiveness. It does not mean no consequences or suffering for ones actions. 

Where are Sasuke's consequences? Obito's? Orochimaru's? I don't see any. What I do see, is a story telling people to be terrible friends and human beings, but its fine if that have a sad pass because they should expect to be forgiven even without making steps to work for it, or even WANT forgiveness. 

That tells good people they shouldn't bother being good, because being bad is easier and you get more out of it. 

So again its a  HORRIBLE MORAL because there are people who cannot be reasoned with. Society is full of them. How many people do you think have tried reasoning with their murderer/rapist/torturer/abuser/bully? A hell of a lot, and it did very little good for the vast majority of them. 

Kishi hasn't stretched the Nakama theme he's obliterated it when it comes to Sasuke. There is hardly any development it feels more like he's trying to pigeon hole Sasuke into Naruto and Team 7's lives. He's a completely unlikable guy- if you knew him in real life how many of us would ACTUALLY want to be anywhere near him? 

What positive thing does he bring to them emotionally or mentally? Nothing. its not healthy, its not even likable.  

That whole "Crazy with love" BS is exactly why Sasuke should be left alone like he wants to be and certainly not reproduce. If being in love turns Uchiha's into psycho's its better that they DON'T get close to people. I would call it preventative care. It really feels like that was just thrown in there as an hall pass for Sasuke and its awful. 

I can suspend my disbelief for a lot of things, but their relationship with Sasuke is not organic. Kishimoto's writing on that front is so lacking its not even funny. 

[FireFox]

Pretty much what I've been saying for the last 6 posts. Kishimoto CAN write it, and he probably WILL write a Sasuke redemption but that doesn't mean I have to agree, like it, or accept it as good writing. Sasuke doesn't deserve it, Obito doesn't deserve to just go free, Orochimaru doesn't deserve to get away with his crap.

Its not acceptable to TEACH kids that no matter what you do, people will be accepting and love you because its an out right lie that does more damage to them then the truth does. The truth is you shouldn't treat the people who love you like crap. You shouldn't be angry, bitter and vengeful because it kills you and the people around you and if you ever decide to change its too late, you've done to much damage to get back what you had. 

Thats a better lesson to be teaching people then the one Kishimoto is trying to nail into everyone's head.

I mean, if we buy the crap that "Oh its a beautiful story about redemption and forgiveness..." You might as well just say that its acceptable for Orochimaru to use children and toss them aside like he does, that his experiments are acceptable and deserve no punishment, that his merciless murdering is A-okay. Or that Obito causing a war, killing Minato and Kushina and causing a crap ton of people to die indirectly and directly is also acceptable.

Those actions are not acceptable. Its disturbing to see them tossed under the rug of forgiveness without real consequences like they never even mattered to begin with. 

 

 

I already talked about this too earlier. but yea; there is no "Secretly he cares!" or "he's lying to himself!" if he cared even in his heart of hearts, in the depths of his mind and the tattered pieces of his soul HIS BODY WOULD HAVE MOVED. its an instinctive thing, no thoughts necessary. 

It didn't, he didn't he don't GAF. Its canon, that's all there is to it. 


 

I agree especially with the Bolded . I would understand if they are able to forgive them if he shows remorse for the things that they have done  (this isn't a bad thing people are capable of this and its admirable ) but letting him go free without consequences like nothing ever happened this is absolutely out of the question . It just so wrong on so many levels and its sends the wrong message  like you said . And especially in Sasuke's case when he doesn't deserve it at all  he's not working toward it , he doesn't want it , he doesn't feel like what he has done is wrong , doesn't care about anyone especially "his  T7" etc , So again why should he be redeemed and forgiven in the first place ? It doesn't make any freaking sense .  It's alright to forgive to have the strength in you hearth to do that to someone who did you so wrong its human's best quality  but its not OK for that to be forgotten and brushed of without any consequences like nothing ever happened . That's just so morally wrong it sends the message that its OK if you kill someone , commit a genocide , rape someone as long as you say you are sorry  and this is just plain stupid and disgusting  . 

[Don-kun]

More forgiveness does not equal UNLIMITED forgiveness. It does not mean no consequences or suffering for ones actions. 

Where are Sasuke's consequences? Obito's? Orochimaru's? I don't see any. What I do see, is a story telling people to be terrible friends and human beings, but its fine if that have a sad pass because they should expect to be forgiven even without making steps to work for it, or even WANT forgiveness. 

That tells good people they shouldn't bother being good, because being bad is easier and you get more out of it. 

So again its a  HORRIBLE MORAL because there are people who cannot be reasoned with. Society is full of them. How many people do you think have tried reasoning with their murderer/rapist/torturer/abuser/bully? A hell of a lot, and it did very little good for the vast majority of them. 

Kishi hasn't stretched the Nakama theme he's obliterated it when it comes to Sasuke. There is hardly any development it feels more like he's trying to pigeon hole Sasuke into Naruto and Team 7's lives. He's a completely unlikable guy- if you knew him in real life how many of us would ACTUALLY want to be anywhere near him? 

What positive thing does he bring to them emotionally or mentally? Nothing. its not healthy, its not even likable.  

That whole "Crazy with love" BS is exactly why Sasuke should be left alone like he wants to be and certainly not reproduce. If being in love turns Uchiha's into psycho's its better that they DON'T get close to people. I would call it preventative care. It really feels like that was just thrown in there as an hall pass for Sasuke and its awful. 

I can suspend my disbelief for a lot of things, but their relationship with Sasuke is not organic. Kishimoto's writing on that front is so lacking its not even funny. 

The Quote of the week.

 

I will always be amazed by all the excuses that are made towards Sasuke character, I know some people like bad character and to me that's fine under a fictional story but when people start trying to justifying the bad person actions is where I kind of find it disturbing.

In all truth the Uchiha race no matter how you look on it as being nothing but fight and war and it all started with the first person who inherit the ocular power then fallow by the rest of the Uchihas race, sadly the only person who was able to see that is the one person that is accused for what Sasuke has become when Sasuke had the love of an entire Village and was given a choice something the  others didn't have, even Madara wanted to make amen to his past but he was disliked by the Village and his own people but don't get me wrong because with all that said I will still give Madara, Nagato, Orochimaru, Kabuto and Obito a life sentence without freedom, execution, electric chair or gas chamber.

Now lets compare then to Sasuke whose life's as being noting but the desire for revenge despite having the love of an entire village and friend who loved him and would go to the end of the world for him, but what he did in return try to kill them try to destroy there village become and international criminal and when that mentality changed he still kept hurting the ones who loves him, compare that to Naruto who grow up with an entire Village hating him.
Seeing how Sasuke having a brother who kept pushing him to revenging because he loved him and wanted to see him become a hero in contrast to a Kurama who kept influencing Naruto to become an evil person nd am sure we all know what a bad influence frond a Jinchuuriki can do to a persons mind quick example early Gaara.

So to judge Sasuke all I need to compare Naruto's life vs Sasuke's own to make up my mind on why Sasuke will never be redeemed in my eyes.

Edited by Don-kun, 18 June 2014 - 01:13 AM.

[Gojira]

Father's Day? Lol poor Kishi

[Otaru]

Uhm...how about no. There is a reason why we have prisons, there is a reason why we don't release people back into society, why we put them on lists so that other people know what kind of person they are.

Well... I don't agree at all, but I think it's because we have a totally opposed way of seeing life/society.
IMO, prisons in our society are here because we've been used to cast away people that give us problems, and it's easier for us this way. But it's also sad, and it's also the symptom of an ill/dysfunctional society. IMO.
To me, those persons are the fruit of our system, and they became bad because of it. I think prisons aren't solving anything, and are just making those persons even more bad and corrupted.
I think we should work a lot more on education, correct the society, and cure those bad persons with psychological therapy. But it's just my opinion, I know a lot of people don't see it that way and just want the bad ones to be cast away.
 

Obito has not been forgiven just because Sakura said "hey thanks for doing one good thing." hell, she still called him an enemy, and said "This time only." That doesn't sound redemption worthy. Redemption doesn't come from JUST changing your mind or your ways. It comes from making reparations and doing someone to offset the damages you've caused. He hasn't, Sasuke hasn't. Sasuke hasn't even acknowledged any wrong doing. He's still blaming everyone else. Ergo, not redeemed.

I didn't say Sakura has forgiven him. I just said she thanked him. To me it's a first step. Naruto, Minato and Kakashi didn't take Obito's life because now he's back to normal again. Why kill him when he's no longer bad ? He was a victim. He was manipulated. He was suffering. Of course he reacted bad, of course he could have been a better guy. But he was broken and he was suffering so much. He just broke himself. They just can condemn him. That would be inhuman.
 

Its awfully hard to make up for killing people, and years of emotional pain. Like, really hard.

Yes it's true. But he began well by saving Naruto's life, no ?
 

Secondly again, lets say Sakura and Kakashi fell in the lava and died and Sasuke's response was "they don't matter, who cares?" which is exactly what he was going to let happen. Why are you ignoring that? Its pretty big deal. He COULD have saved them. He COULD have done something but his response was "Whateves."

I didn't say I like Sasuke. I'm not trying to defend him or anything. Again, I'm just talking about Kishimoto's message. And personally, even if I don't like him, I can understand why he became like that.
 

So in real  life if someone has a sob story, commits murder, treason, tries to destroy an entire population, and any number of other awful things they can be forgiven, allowed back into normal society.   Thats the lesson Kishimoto is giving us and its a crappy one. Its an awful thing to teach people because it can never happen, it SHOULDN'T happen.

I think it sounds crappy because we are used to deal with those kind of people in another way. The message is not exactly what you said, though. I personally think that it's better to taught a lesson about forgiveness to children. But again, it's my vision. I think Kishimoto wants to talk about peace. Peace is hard to accept by modern society, because we don't accept to forgive.
 

Actions have consequences, Sasuke hasn't been negatively affected by a single one of his own bad choices, he can't own up to any of his actions. All he does is NEGATIVELY affect team 7, so why should he even be there? 

Kishimoto hasn't done jack to show that team 7 being back together is a good thing ( He's done the opposite. Crappy team work, lowered moral, overt jerkiness) that Sasuke brings anything good to the table or that he deserves to be there. Thats the problem.

It's because they are still dysfunctional. It's normal. Naruto will fix it.
 

You don't get to do whatever you like just because you're a poor broken bird. You don't get special passes, because everyone got a sob story in Naruto. It's cheap. Kishimoto can write it all he likes, it doesn't make it GOOD.

I never said that. I personally think that Sasuke is a weak person, and that he doesn't deserve trust and friends. But I understand that he is broken. He has atoning circumstances. I think in his soul, he never really wanted to kill Naruto or Sakura. He think he tried to kill them because he was possessed by his demons.
 

Also, If Sasuke is "lying to himself" that means he DOES care, he just doesn't want to admit it, or acknowledge it.

Well I don't see it exactly that way. When you lie to yourself, you believe you don't care. It can be strong. But yes, I think Kishimoto is implying that deep down inside there is still that old Sasuke who cares.
 

He's not lying, HE DOESN'T CARE. Sakura and Kakashi for a split second, could have been dead, he didn't even look until Naruto said something. His body didn't move to do a thing for them. You're mind might not admit something, but your body can move all on its own. His didn't. He doesn't care, no lying is necessary.

I think he checked because he was able to explain it all to Naruto. but that's just me I guess. I think I'm the only one here to believe that.
 

Actually this world could do well with some more forgiveness in the world.

Kishi isn't teaching anyone that whatever you do people will accept. He is kinda stretching the idea of nakama a usual theme in this types of manga but still it's a good theme for a medium tailored for kids to understand. Most likely he is writing about his belief that any person can be reached and even reasoned with. It's a wonderful idea to teach kids. Maybe just maybe some of them will try to find other ways of solving the conflicts of their lives by focusing on resolution and not confrontation. Even those that wrong you on more unforgettable things can be forgiven. It's not necessarily a kiss and make up forgiveness but keeping that anger inside of you creates monsters. Heck Kishi even talked about the passionate side of love when he decided to give Uchiha that sickness where they go crazy if they lose someone they love.

Anyway no one is asking anyone to like or dislike the story. It has it's flaws but despite those flaws it still on track with what Kishi was talking about from the start.

That's it yes ! I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one to see it like that !

Edited by Otaru, 17 June 2014 - 07:29 PM.

[Dkey]

More forgiveness does not equal UNLIMITED forgiveness. It does not mean no consequences or suffering for ones actions. 

Where are Sasuke's consequences? Obito's? Orochimaru's? I don't see any. What I do see, is a story telling people to be terrible friends and human beings, but its fine if that have a sad pass because they should expect to be forgiven even without making steps to work for it, or even WANT forgiveness. 

That tells good people they shouldn't bother being good, because being bad is easier and you get more out of it. 

So again its a  HORRIBLE MORAL because there are people who cannot be reasoned with. Society is full of them. How many people do you think have tried reasoning with their murderer/rapist/torturer/abuser/bully? A hell of a lot, and it did very little good for the vast majority of them. 

Kishi hasn't stretched the Nakama theme he's obliterated it when it comes to Sasuke. There is hardly any development it feels more like he's trying to pigeon hole Sasuke into Naruto and Team 7's lives. He's a completely unlikable guy- if you knew him in real life how many of us would ACTUALLY want to be anywhere near him? 

What positive thing does he bring to them emotionally or mentally? Nothing. its not healthy, its not even likable.  

That whole "Crazy with love" BS is exactly why Sasuke should be left alone like he wants to be and certainly not reproduce. If being in love turns Uchiha's into psycho's its better that they DON'T get close to people. I would call it preventative care. It really feels like that was just thrown in there as an hall pass for Sasuke and its awful. 

I can suspend my disbelief for a lot of things, but their relationship with Sasuke is not organic. Kishimoto's writing on that front is so lacking its not even funny. 

 

Thing is real life is different than Naruto's world. In fact it looks like in Naruto's life it's an eye for an eye society. Real life was once like that and it lead thankfully current day justice system. I'm not gonna talk about the justice system because in Narutoverse the justice system is eye for an eye.

 

Kishi isn't trying to recreate the real world into the Naruto world. If he would things would have been more complicated than they are today.  But he isn't also focusing on the world but on the individuals. The way this world works is that in the case of Obito and Naruto, Naruto should kill Obito because Obito was responsible for his parents death but he didn't. In the case of Naruto he has forgiven Obito but this is a good lesson to learn that if someone wronged you, you don't go after him and wrong him again but do something else.

 

As for the unforgivable things you mention that happen in real life...

 

 

But let's judge Sasuke based on real life rules. Right now from what we know we can condemn him of murder attempts ( Sakura, Naruto, Kakashi, Karin) and criminal neglijence (aka his disregard for Kakashi and Sakura and others of the alliance). This are horrible things but it isn't Kishi's desire or job to judge him. It would be the readers job not to act like this with friends or other human beings. And if we go back to Naruto, his desire is to have make Sasuke change. Having Sasuke change will also impact the world because everything that happens in that war is because of the bad blood between two "brothers" and most likely will lead to peace. It's not realistic because we can't source all the world problems to the relationship between to key individuals. 

 

As for their relationship with Sasuke. I think I did a mistake ( and Im not alone in it) that we assumed that Naruto and Naruto Shippuden are basically the same work but with a time skip in between. It doesn't seem to be the case even thou some themes from Naruto bled out into shippuden. As you said there is no real relationship between Sasuke. In fact Kishi had to use deus ex machina to asspull their organic collaboration in fighting. Why I have no idea but unfortunately it's the theme of this manga and this is what we get even if we like it or not.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

LOL what exactly do you have problem with my post i'm not saying he wont "get redeemed" ? And  i didn't ommit anything i could say the same thing about you . Not sure what you meant with your intro but OK i guess , and my point was that Sasuke's redemption is forced as hell and you can't have one if you regret nothing and don't care about anyone and what you have done simple as that .

It was because you keep saying he doesnt care, he doesnt care.
But Sasuke does care, the problem is that those feelings are an obstacle for his goal.
 

Like i said i didn't ommited anything i just showed you that even if he has goals he still cared , and with Karin even if he did that later (not that i justified what he did to her on the contrary  ) he sincerely  apologized  to her and that was the same Sasuke that we are seeing now the one who doesn't give any kitten to T7 besides Naruto so tell me how strong his feelings really are ?

You only omitted the aspect that he has feelings for them.
 

Yes he thinks of T7 as to gain a sense of teamwork what that is  , and previously he was about to kill them all and now he's not even bother whether they are dead or alive , to me it seems that he had feelings for them but whatever feelings he had they are lost now and that they were not any special to him if he is able to let them die . The only bond that is meaningful in T7 is Naruto .

He doesnt want to teamwork with team 7, because both Naruto and Sasuke are insanely superior to his former comrades he expressed that they should not had been there to begin with, they're a problem to both Naruto and Sasuke because they have to fight and at the same time protect them, which is a problem to their teamwork, Naruto expressed he will protect them anyway.
 

Yeah and Sasuke said that they are all there laughing at Itachi's sacrifice how in the world is this a hint that Sasuke has feelings for them  just because they are somebody that he used to know no really how ? Don't exaggerate this and make it appear for what its not

The meaning is that Itachi sacrificed so many things for those people and is labelled as a traitor and an evil man, Obito showed him when he bought him to Konoha, and Sasuke heared some ninjas of konoha badmouthing Itachi.

Konoha ninjas are weak and scumbags.
 

Sasuke wants to kill Naruto to erase his past hence cutting him in half the others are indifferent to him they hold no special meaning to him .

The reason he wants to kill Naruto shows that he has feelings for his team and his teammates, he wants to get over with this, because it's Naruto who keep reminding him about those feelings.

 

And for kitten sake's Sasuke is always goal oriented and selfish that is his character changing his POV doesn't mean change in his personality his goals will always be his main priority .

He was selfish but i dont think his current goal is selfish, Sasuke wants to "save" the village from the darkness the difference is that he has other methods than Naruto, while Naruto wants to go with the power of Nakama, Sasuke wants to handle all of it by himself and with his own means.
He believes he can resolve this because he's strong and the k11 and specially Naruto are on his path.
He has to erase his opposition.
 

And those feelings you say that are "hinted" are not strong as you make them be  you exaggerate them make them appear so Those feelings he has are little to none , the fact that his goals are more important to him then the lives of the people he has "feelings" for speaks volume about the strength  of his feelings for them  .
 
And in what world it doesn't matter if he cares or not but he has feelings then will you please explain me what his feelings are exactly if he's willing to kill them and let them die just for the sake of him proving a point  ? This is just ridiculous.

They are strong if it wasnt he would not had awakened his third tomoe sharingan when he fought Naruto.
Sasuke's hatred is strong aswell.
 

The bolded accepting his past doesn't mean that he will love them be lovey dovey with them , have any special care for them , return to them   or anything like that its just means that he will acknowledge them as part of T7 that he will accept them that they exist and that they were all once upon a time a part of it . Also his past in Konoha isn't just T7 but the Uciha more then anything else this is what's haunting him and wants to erase because their death is the source of his pain  not freaking T7.

Sasuke was never lovey dovey with them, just like Kakashi isnt lovey dovey either.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 June 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Well... I don't agree at all, but I think it's because we have a totally opposed way of seeing life/society.
IMO, prisons in our society are here because we've been used to cast away people that give us problems, and it's easier for us this way. But it's also sad, and it's also the symptom of an ill/dysfunctional society. IMO.
To me, those persons are the fruit of our system, and they became bad because of it. I think prisons aren't solving anything, and are just making those persons even more bad and corrupted.
I think we should work a lot more on education, correct the society, and cure those bad persons with psychological therapy. But it's just my opinion, I know a lot of people don't see it that way and just want the bad ones to be cast away.
 

 

By your view of society, Criminals like Luis Garavito ( who was proven to murder 138 children who he raped, tortured and murdered—he’s suspected of having killed 400 individuals.) or Pedro lopez (he’s known to have killed 110 young girls ages 8-10, but he confessed to murdering 300 all after raping them.) would be “cured”

Its a society I'm glad not to live in. 

Psychology tells us that pedophilia can’t be cured. It’s not something you “Get over” if you have it you have it forever and you should never be allowed near children because its too much of a temptation. Its been proven over and over again that there is no such thing a cure for it and treatment doesn't more half the time either. They find ways to make people into victims. 

The solution to that is to keep pedophiles away from children. The solution to keep a repeated murderer from murdering is to keep them away from people. Hence prisons and the death sentence.  

People are imperfect, dysfunctional beings. Society is comprised of people who are dysfunction and imperfect, therefore it can never be a perfect, murder free, violence free utopia. The best we can do is deal with the most dysfunctional dangerous people and remove them from the rest.

Bad people do not outnumber the good that’s why it’s easier to contain them and remove them from the general population. You look at it as “throwing them away.” Completely ignoring the fact that it’s for the good of everyone-people aren’t victimized and the criminal is sent to prison where they can get some help if they want it.

It honestly seems to me that you feel more pity for the criminal then the victim which is completely twisted.

You said that Obito was redeemed- its what you wrote. Which is what I was responding to because it was obviously wrong. You’re right, he has made a change- Sasuke hasn’t. Even if he had made a change it doesn’t mean he should get everything he tossed aside like trash handed to him on a silver platter.

“Hey Hitler, sorry you murdered like a million Jews but its fine because you must have been hurting so much on the inside!” Is what it sounds like you’re saying.

Again, YOU can think that it’s a good moral—but teaching children that they can hurt other people because they are hurting and have forgiveness shoved down their throat without working for it is a bad moral. Naruto cannot fix crazy brain syndrome. Sasuke has a medical condition, the more he loves the more he hates. Hence it’s better for him not to love so he can’t hate and go all "Burn, burn it allllll!" 

If you’re the only one who believes that, don’t you think it might be because it contradicts the source material?

Sasuke checked because NARUTO said “how did you manage that?!” and Sasuke replied “Oh he used a Kunai and a scroll to save himself and Obito.”

He didn’t care. If he cared he would have gone to save them. He had no idea if they had fallen into the lava or not before that and he was completely un-phased.  We can rehash this over and over and over again. What you think contradicts canon evidence. 

He wasn’t going to save them from Tsukuyomi, he was not going to save them from Lava. They could have fallen, he wouldn’t care. It does not get any more straightforward then the fact that 1. He said he didn’t care. 2. His body did nothing.

2. HIS BODY DID NOTHING. he had all that time to grab Naruto, but none to flip his dumb bird around and at least LOOK at them? no, he waits until Naruto brings them up and is surprised that Sakura, Kakashi and Obito are still in the land of living. he expected them to be in the lava and was cool with it. 

Thats canon. That is Sasuke- IDAF- uchiha. 

 

 

Thing is real life is different than Naruto's world. In fact it looks like in Naruto's life it's an eye for an eye society. Real life was once like that and it lead thankfully current day justice system. I'm not gonna talk about the justice system because in Narutoverse the justice system is eye for an eye.

 

Kishi isn't trying to recreate the real world into the Naruto world. If he would things would have been more complicated than they are today.  But he isn't also focusing on the world but on the individuals. The way this world works is that in the case of Obito and Naruto, Naruto should kill Obito because Obito was responsible for his parents death but he didn't. In the case of Naruto he has forgiven Obito but this is a good lesson to learn that if someone wronged you, you don't go after him and wrong him again but do something else.

 

As for the unforgivable things you mention that happen in real life...

 

 

But let's judge Sasuke based on real life rules. Right now from what we know we can condemn him of murder attempts ( Sakura, Naruto, Kakashi, Karin) and criminal neglijence (aka his disregard for Kakashi and Sakura and others of the alliance). This are horrible things but it isn't Kishi's desire or job to judge him. It would be the readers job not to act like this with friends or other human beings. And if we go back to Naruto, his desire is to have make Sasuke change. Having Sasuke change will also impact the world because everything that happens in that war is because of the bad blood between two "brothers" and most likely will lead to peace. It's not realistic because we can't source all the world problems to the relationship between to key individuals. 

 

As for their relationship with Sasuke. I think I did a mistake ( and Im not alone in it) that we assumed that Naruto and Naruto Shippuden are basically the same work but with a time skip in between. It doesn't seem to be the case even thou some themes from Naruto bled out into shippuden. As you said there is no real relationship between Sasuke. In fact Kishi had to use deus ex machina to asspull their organic collaboration in fighting. Why I have no idea but unfortunately it's the theme of this manga and this is what we get even if we like it or not.

 

I never said anything about killing anyone. Plenty of REAL LIFE people forgive people who have murdered a loved one. Usually they're christian and its because that's what their religion tells them to do. Buddhism is the same way-- you do not perpetrate negative acts taking a life, or harming another being is taboo. 

No it IS Kishi's job to judge him ( its just not his desire.) Its his job not to give young readers false morals and expectations. Its his job to show them that being bad does not pay off. He's not doing that. Instead he's glorifying Sasuke and his actions by not showing people how they can negatively affect him and them if they act like him.

He's not doing that. Instead he's saying "Be a jerk-wad, try to kill people, treat the people who love you like dirt, its cool, they'll forgive you because friendship is magic." ( or some BS like that.) He's also saying, hey--its perfectly healthy to obsess over someone who doesn't care if you live or you die, who tries to kill you and others you care about, who makes the people around them feel like crap and overall just doesn't care about anyone but them self. 

That's the path Kishimoto chose, I can't deny it but I can gripe about it and explain why its crap. "Naruto" is a hell of a lot darker then "Naruto Shippuden" its hard to say where Kishi screwed up exactly but he messed up badly. 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 17 June 2014 - 08:28 PM.

[Don-kun]

@Tsuki

I know you want to make a point but none of these things you're saying are related to Naruto the Manga, the topic is not about what Luis Garavito or Pedro Lopez did lets not try to mix these things and focus more on what is our opinion of Sasuke and if he really deserve a redemption despite his wrong doing.

For me Sasuke's behavior is almost like a child who is frustrated with his family who are trying to do everything they can to stop him from choosing the wrong pact but because his mind is set up on his goal he will abandon them and if they try to step him in his way he could even end their life's.

 

I don't like Sasuke because of what he did to his friends, the fact that he throws back his friend care and support back at them, his murder attempt on the ones who cares about him, his arrogance, getting everything despite not working for it, his lack of remorse, disregard towards his friends well being and the majority of his fans and none of these reasons have anything to do with life study, Luis Garavito or Pedro Lopez but a lot to do with my moral and the story itself.

 

 

Also I agree with the rest I hate the message Kishi is trying to present to his readers.

Edited by Don-kun, 17 June 2014 - 09:42 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I don't like Sasuke because of what he did to his friends, the fact that he throws back his friend care and support back at them, his murder attempt on the ones who cares about him, his arrogance, getting everything despite not working for it, his lack of remorse, disregard towards his friends well being and the majority of his fans and none of these reasons have anything to do with life study, Luis Garavito or Pedro Lopez but a lot to do with my moral and the story itself.

I dont like Sasuke because his goals since the begining had no explanation and this whole "throws back his friend care and support back at them, his murder attempt on the ones who cares about him, his arrogance, getting everything despite not working for it, his lack of remorse, disregard towards his friends well being"
It's bs really, Sasuke made his choice when he left the village, it's not his fault that those people wants to bring him back at all costs, if any Naruto was supposed to mind his own business and they'd probaby had met on the final.
No Kishimoto made Naruto and Sakura look like idiots the entire manga chasing after a guy that had made a choice and was aware of the consequences.



My only critic that i has on Sasuke is the solely reason that his goals and his reasoning is weak and it's so true that he had to make Sasuke into someome who wants to protect the village but with a different method than Naruto.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

@Tsuki

I know you want to make a point but none of these things you're saying are related to Naruto the Manga, the topic is not about what Luis Garavito or Pedro Lopez did lets not try to mix these things and focus more on what is our opinion of Sasuke and if he really deserve a redemption despite his wrong doing.

For me Sasuke's behavior is almost like a child who is frustrated with his family who are trying to do everything they can to stop him from choosing the wrong pact but because his mind is set up on his goal he will abandon them and if they try to step him in his way he could even end their life's.

 

I don't like Sasuke because of what he did to his friends, the fact that he throws back his friend care and support back at them, his murder attempt on the ones who cares about him, his arrogance, getting everything despite not working for it, his lack of remorse, disregard towards his friends well being and the majority of his fans and none of these reasons have anything to do with life study, Luis Garavito or Pedro Lopez but a lot to do with my moral and the story itself.

I keep having to bring up these real world people because Otaru keeps bringing up the idea that forgiveness is some sort of miracle cure for everything that ails society. 

Its not, and its ridiculous to think that people can do the horrible things they do, and still have a place in normal law abiding society; Like Orochimaru. Who trained Sasuke, who is his parallel. 

See what I'm getting at?  In order to explain that point, I have to relate it to real life to get my point across.

Not that it seems to be working. 
 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 17 June 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[FireFox]

It was because you keep saying he doesnt care, he doesnt care.
But Sasuke does care, the problem is that those feelings are an obstacle for his goal.
 

I keep saying it because i have evidence to support that you on the other hand don't have any.

 

What ? He does care ? Please for the LOVE OF GOD show me the evidence for it and don't just come up with "he does care" Actions Speaks Louder Then Words . I have Sasuke ,Sakura even Naruto saying/stating the opposite i rather believe them then your  "interpretation" . And no that's not the problem you are not making sense in here  that is not care what you are saying and implying in the first place in here is ridiculous .

 

What you are saying to me is this : Sasuke CARES but he's willing to let them DIE  for his goals . 

 

Now in what world would someone who cares about somebody would let them Die and Feel Nothing about that ? 

Now in what world does this make any sense to you ? Do you even understand what the word CARE actually means ? The fact that he let them DIE without feeling anything not even a sign of worry remorse  when i showed you with panels that he's capable of it and doesn't hide his feelings and emotions proves that HE DOESN'T CARE . And his goals doesn't stop him from showing his feelings for them when they are about to die .

 

And they are not an obstacle to his goal but Naruto is and do i need to explain to you THE BODY MOVES ON ITS OWN argument again and the fact that Sasuke's body didn't move an inch for them but only for Naruto ?

 

Conclusion : YOU DON'T LET THE PEOPLE YOU "CARE FOR" JUST DIE AND FEEL NOTHING ABOUT IT  THAT'S NOT CARE THAT'S INDIFFERENCE .

 

You only omitted the aspect that he has feelings for them.

Show me evidence of those feelings don't just say it to me that i discard them either do it or don't . Because i can show you tons of it that he doesn't and that he only ever reacts to Naruto not the rest of T7 .

 

He doesnt want to teamwork with team 7, because both Naruto and Sasuke are insanely superior to his former comrades he expressed that they should not had been there to begin with, they're a problem to both Naruto and Sasuke because they have to fight and at the same time protect them, which is a problem to their teamwork, Naruto expressed he will protect them anyway.

 How does this means he cares again you are just proving me right . This was a contrast to both Sasuke and Naruto , Naruto cares about them and isn't about to let them Die while Sasuke he pretty much doesn't care about them and he's willing to let them Die this is simple why do you even try to twist this ?  And are you trying to tell me that Sasuke's bond with Naruto is on the same level with the others ? He is his rival and once called him his BF and they are spiritual connected do i need to say more bc i sure hope not ?

 

 
The meaning is that Itachi sacrificed so many things for those people and is labelled as a traitor and an evil man, Obito showed him when he bought him to Konoha, and Sasuke heared some ninjas of konoha badmouthing Itachi.

 

Konoha ninjas are weak and scumbags.

This has nothing to do with your original question and my answer to it  you said that this showed he has feelings for them K11 and i just proved you wrong so don't change the subject if anything he hates their guts which proves you even more wrong .

 

 
The reason he wants to kill Naruto shows that he has feelings for his team and his teammates, he wants to get over with this, because it's Naruto who keep reminding him about those feelings.

That is your interpretation not a fact , also Naruto is not T7  T7 is the whole of them (Naruto,Sakura,Kakashi) him cutting Naruto doesn't mean T7 Sasuke has a bond with Naruto outside of T7 so don't discard that . As for my interpretation here it is : He cut Naruto and Naruto only in there because he's the only bond that holds him to the past and means something to him the others he's indifferent  about them . Also that Naruto is someone who represents the Hokages and the old system . Either way this just shows you that he deems Naruto important and is his biggest connection and obstacle not T7 .

 

 
He was selfish but i dont think his current goal is selfish, Sasuke wants to "save" the village from the darkness the difference is that he has other methods than Naruto, while Naruto wants to go with the power of Nakama, Sasuke wants to handle all of it by himself and with his own means.
He believes he can resolve this because he's strong and the k11 and specially Naruto are on his path.
He has to erase his opposition.

I wasn't arguing whether his goal is selfish or not that doesn't concern me and wasn't the argument the argument was his personality. He's always goal oriented and selfish (Kishi's words) that's his character and will remain as such only his POV will change bc Naruto will force him to it . As for why he's doing it its all bc of Itachi and the way he's going about it is selfish (he doesn't care what anybody thinks) Sasuke wants this by force the Danzo/Madara way i don't see how is this any good.

 

 
They are strong if it wasnt he would not had awakened his third tomoe sharingan when he fought Naruto.
Sasuke's hatred is strong aswell.

And you just keep proving me more and more right in here . Naruto like i said to you is not T7 and doesn't represent Kakashi and Sakura,the fact that he did that for Naruto means his bond with him is strong not with T7 (Kakashi and Sakura) they have separate bond one that's out of T7 you have the whole manga for the proof of this .

 

 
Sasuke was never lovey dovey with them, just like Kakashi isnt lovey dovey either.

LOL And just like Kakashi's Body moves and reacts to protect the ones he cares for Sasuke's pretty much doesn't do that at all . 

Edited by NarutoFireFoxUzumaki, 17 June 2014 - 09:49 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

It's bs really, Sasuke made his choice when he left the village, it's not his fault that those people wants to bring him back at all costs, if any Naruto was supposed to mind his own business and they'd probaby had met on the final.
No Kishimoto made Naruto and Sakura look like idiots the entire manga chasing after a guy that had made a choice and was aware of the consequences.
 

That right there is the crux of it all. 

Sasuke should have just been left alone like he wanted. Instead Naruto and Sakura just keep harassing him with things he obviously doesn't want. Thats not being a good friend, its being annoying. 

Naruto needs to learn to leave people alone when they want to be left alone, Sakura needs to learn to leave people alone who don't want to be bothered, and Sasuke just needs to get over himself. 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 17 June 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[Dkey]

I never said anything about killing anyone. Plenty of REAL LIFE people forgive people who have murdered a loved one. Usually they're christian and its because that's what their religion tells them to do. Buddhism is the same way-- you do not perpetrate negative acts taking a life, or harming another being is taboo. 

No it IS Kishi's job to judge him ( its just not his desire.) Its his job not to give young readers false morals and expectations. Its his job to show them that being bad does not pay off. He's not doing that. Instead he's glorifying Sasuke and his actions by not showing people how they can negatively affect him and them if they act like him.

He's not doing that. Instead he's saying "Be a jerk-wad, try to kill people, treat the people who love you like dirt, its cool, they'll forgive you because friendship is magic." ( or some BS like that.) He's also saying, hey--its perfectly healthy to obsess over someone who doesn't care if you live or you die, who tries to kill you and others you care about, who makes the people around them feel like crap and overall just doesn't care about anyone but them self. 

That's the path Kishimoto chose, I can't deny it but I can gripe about it and explain why its crap. "Naruto" is a hell of a lot darker then "Naruto Shippuden" its hard to say where Kishi screwed up exactly but he messed up badly. 

 

Kishi isn't a teacher so it's not his job to teach. Kishi's job is to continue the story and not get side tracked. If anything he opened up a discussion of whether an individual that did bad deserves or not a second chance. As for showing that bad isn't paying off he did. By showing that bad actions continue to spawn bad actions.

[luffyq1]

That right there is the crux of it all. 

Sasuke should have just been left alone like he wanted. Instead Naruto and Sakura just keep harassing him with things he obviously doesn't want. Thats not being a good friend, its being annoying. 

Naruto needs to learn to leave people alone when they want to be left alone, Sakura needs to learn to leave people alone who don't want to be bothered, and Sasuke just needs to get over himself. 

Some true kitten.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

Kishi isn't a teacher so it's not his job to teach. Kishi's job is to continue the story and not get side tracked. If anything he opened up a discussion of whether an individual that did bad deserves or not a second chance. As for showing that bad isn't paying off he did. By showing that bad actions continue to spawn bad actions.

If people are going to judge Stephanie Meyer for writing the curse known as Twlight- for giving young girls false and dangerous expectations for relationships or any other writer on the face of the planet for making bad stories with bad relationships Kishimoto can be held to the same standards. 

Also, a teacher is not the only person who teaches for a living. We learn from books, from TV shows, from our parents, from everything around us. By knowing young kids read his comic Kishimoto and the characters he creates become role models and tools of teaching. 
 

 

Some true kitten.

I try, I really do. 

 

[Don-kun]

I dont like Sasuke because his goals since the begining had no explanation and this whole "throws back his friend care and support back at them, his murder attempt on the ones who cares about him, his arrogance, getting everything despite not working for it, his lack of remorse, disregard towards his friends well being"
It's bs really, Sasuke made his choice when he left the village, it's not his fault that those people wants to bring him back at all costs, if any Naruto was supposed to mind his own business and they'd probaby had met on the final.
No Kishimoto made Naruto and Sakura look like idiots the entire manga chasing after a guy that had made a choice and was aware of the consequences.



My only critic that i has on Sasuke is the solely reason that his goals and his reasoning is weak and it's so true that he had to make Sasuke into someome who wants to protect the village but with a different method than Naruto.

 

 

Because some of you replies seems so childish I always ask my self if I should reply to them, for example that duck.

 

Anyway that part of Naruto and company should leave Sasuke alone? Well in a part Kishimoto went over board with Naruto and Sakura's obsession but without the obsession part that is something friends will always do for another friend the sad part for us the readers is that Kishimoto never develop Naruto and Sasuke friendship the way he did with less panel time for the other characters I'm going to mention.

 

Kakashi when he find out that Tobi was Obito all he tried was to reasoning with his old friend in order to save him from himself,

Jiraiya tried to save Orochimaru and level himself has a failure because he could not save him.

Hashirama always tried to reason with Madara his old friend in order to save him from himself.

 

All of these character failed to save their friend so what makes you believe that Naruto will do the same when the theme of the Manga is about him never giving up and that younger generation surpassing the older ones.

 

Like I said for some people Sasuke has done no wrong but I always wondered basing and morals how can readers really say that with a straight face.