19964 replies to this topic

[kirabook]

Can we all please have a serious discussion, stop calling each other trolls, and treating each other as if they're from opposing sides? :/

It's getting really ridiculous and childish.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

My opinion doesn't matter, remember? Apparently you, and many more, view me keeping an open mind as flamming instead of submitting to the supposed fact that NS is going to eventually happen in the end.

So tell me, why do you seek further discussion with a troll, if that trolls opinion is not taken seriously?

Because you have no arguments? is this?
Saying my opinion doesn't matter.
What opinion?
I asked you to elaborte your point of view instead of just pointing out that we are herds and everyone is wrong.
I would love to see what's your poing of view, what's your opinion.
Acting like this just make you a troll.

You're just ignoring everyone's comment and doing this.
Fallacies of presumption fail to prove the conclusion by assuming the conclusion in the proof. Fallacies of weak inference fail to prove the conclusion with insufficient evidence.
->SS redemption would lead to SS canon, you said this 1 page ago.

Affirming the consequent/Denying the antecedent

Fallacy Ad hominem : "An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. "

I apologize for not following the herd like you by agreeing with every positive NS statement.

Proof by verbosity
Proof by verbosity, sometimes colloquially referred to as argumentum verbosum -a rhetorical technique that tries to persuade by overwhelming those considering an argument with such a volume of material that the argument sounds plausible, superficially appears to be well-researched, and it is so laborious to untangle and check supporting facts that the argument might be allowed to slide by unchallenged.

Or maybe, just maybe, i decided to reread from the beginning of part 1 to now. But NF is a good way to view unbiased opinions.

Ignoring other's comments. --Click here to view--

And then in 487
Sakura says, naruto's resolve much better than mine. All I've done is lean on him and cry, I thought I was ready.
The key part is the I thought I was ready, which basically infers that she's getting over Sasuke, slowly but surely.

What? You're providing chapters, but you're not making any points. Chapter 487 clearly shows that Sakura wasn't able to remove the burderns from Naruto like she planned, not that she failed to fall out of love with Sasuke. Lol. That's like saying just because Dan is dead means that Tsunade doesn't love him romantically anymore. The love is still there, it's just that he's, well...dead.

He did made points, he said after that scene her love for sasuke is decreasing slowly, you simple talked ignored it and did a complete 180 talking about another thing plus comitting the fallacy of generalization.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 December 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[kirabook]

I guess some people just want to fight no matter what, as if there's this deep need to defend yourself against anything that might contradict you.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I guess some people just want to fight no matter what, as if there's this deep need to defend yourself against anything that might contradict you.

i'm not fighting, i dont insulted him or make anything similar i just asked him to elaborate his point of view if this is a fight i dont know why this thread is called a "debate thread".

there's big difference between a fight and a debate.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 December 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[PhenixElite]

I don't believe SS will happen at all, but I don't think "It's a bad message" is a good argument against it at all.

Twilight is a perfect example. Bad messages happen even in the most popular media targeted at the younger generations. Just because it would send a bad message does not mean it can't happen, which is why that argument is not very strong. It's better to stick with the facts rather than bring in so so "bad messages".






The same can be said that every human has a good side deep within, it's ok to be in love with them because they can change. It's ok for Naruto to risk his life for Sasuke because "he can change"? Why is it ok for Naruto to represent this bad message, but not Sakura? "Saving" a friend that made a "few mistakes" and shows no remorse is no better than being love in with someone because of the possibility that they can change.

The message is still bad, just because romance isn't involved doesn't make it any better. But that message is still there, and Kishi uses it every opportunity he can get. We never see Naruto reconsider saving Sasuke, it's always strong and persistent and even when he saved Sakura from death by Sasuke's hand, he never seemed to truly reconsider giving up on Sasuke. Kishi is not afraid to show a bad message, he has throughout most of the manga.

More Rambles --Click here to view--

If Kishi decides to go with this "Sasuke is a good guy deep within" strategy, Naruto ending up alone is not really that big of an impact. Naruto is selfless and he decided long ago he'd do whatever he could to make Sakura happy. If he's able to succeed in bringing Sasuke back and make him good again, along with making the woman he loves happy at last, then his mission is accomplished. It's not great like we all want it to be, but it's "ok". Again, this is if Kishi throws all the bad things Sasuke has done out of the window and makes all his crimes seem like nothing.

While Naruto still acts this way (Acting as if Sasuke is just 'lost' or being mislead even though he makes stupid decisions all on his own), I don't believe the manga is heading in an all redemption, crimes forgiven direction. I think Sasuke will be redeemed, but I don't believe that redemption equals instant love between him and Sakura.

The FACT remains he doesn't care about Sakura and it's been shown time and again. Sure, it would be a "bad message" if they somehow ended up together, but instead of speculating the badness, the fact that he doesn't care for her should cut off just about any chances they have of SS happening right now. The "bad message" as I have shown can easily apply to other themes that Kishi has shown throughout the manga, it is too easily turned around. You can use it if you like, but it's just not helpful, strong, nor does it really matter whether something will happen or not.

Well its true that the bad message thing is not the best argument but i also still dont see it as a bad one.
As i said, you just cant apply what naruto has with sasuke to what sakura has with sasuke. I mean naruto sees sasuke as a friend, even if sasuke tried to kill him it is still possible to remain friends after hes
redeemed. Remeber they are ninjas so killing shouldnt be seen as hard as in the real world i think.
But its different with love. In my opinion its just not possible to get together with someone who wanted to kill you since love is something much deeper then friendship.
And thats why i think it would be a bad message if sakura gets together with sasuke also if hes a good guy deep inside.
So if naruto really redeems him and brings him back despite the fact that he tried to kill him they still can be friends because they dont want to be together.(at least i hope so )
Not saying that sasuke and sakura catn be firends too when hes redeemed.

Edited by PhenixElite, 12 December 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[luffyq1]

Because you have no arguments? is this?
Saying my opinion doesn't matter.
What opinion?
I asked you to elaborte your point of view instead of just pointing out that we are herds and everyone is wrong.
I would love to see what's your poing of view, what's your opinion.
Acting like this just make you a troll.

You're just ignoring everyone's comment and doing this.
Fallacies of presumption fail to prove the conclusion by assuming the conclusion in the proof. Fallacies of weak inference fail to prove the conclusion with insufficient evidence.->SS redemption would lead to SS canon, you said this 1 page ago.

Affirming the consequent/Denying the antecedent

Fallacy Ad hominem :

Don't worry, it's now come down to a troll like me that will simply ignore the all knowing and righteous NS fan that you are.

Edited by luffyq1, 12 December 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Don't worry, it's now come down to a troll like me that will simply ignore the all knowing and righteous NS fan that you are.

Alright so we agree to disagree then.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 December 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[kirabook]

The difference is you don't call your opponent a troll every other comment. That is arguing, not debating. You just push people away with language like that, which is why most of the time you'll never get the answer you desire.

Well its true that the bad message thing is not the best argument but i also still dont see it as a bad one.
As i said, you just cant apply what naruto has with sasuke to what sakura has with sasuke. I mean naruto sees sasuke as a friend, even if sasuke tried to kill him it is still possible to remain friends after hes
redeemed. Remeber they are ninjas so killing shouldnt be seen as hard as in the real world i think.
But its different with love. In my opinion its just not possible to get together with someone who wanted to kill you since love is something much deeper then friendship.
And thats why i think it would be a bad message if sakura gets together with sasuke also if hes a good guy deep inside.
So if naruto really redeems him and brings him back despite the fact that he tried to kill him they still can be friends because they dont want to be together.(at least i hope so )
Not saying that sasuke and sakura catn be firends too when hes redeemed.

But that's what I'm trying to say. When it comes to abusive relationships, there should be no different between if they are just a friend or if they are a lover. It's not okay for someone you call a friend to do so many terrible things to you just like it's not ok for a lover to do those things to you.

Sasuke has abused Naruto more than Sakura at this point. They are ninja's, but they are human. It's not everyday a best friend goes rouge and gets friendly with S-class enemies of the place you call home. It's not everyday that they declare they'll destroy everything you care about, just so they think they can feel better about their pathetic life.

Just like I don't think Sakura should love or care about Sasuke, I don't think Naruto should care about Sasuke either. The "it's a bad message" fits perfectly with Naruto's attitude towards "rescuing" Sasuke just as much as it fits with Sakura attitude towards Sasuke.

Edited by kirabook, 12 December 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

The difference is you don't call your opponent a troll every other comment. That is arguing, not debating. You just push people away with language like that, which is why most of the time you'll never get the answer you desire.

I didnt called him a troll i told him that the way he's acting is like one.
And moreover i'm not here to get the answer i desire i want the answer that make him think why SS has a chance of happening.
He did way worse called the entire fanbase as a bunch of herds that agree with every NS statement.

claims --Click here to view--

take a look on this claim he used to make my argument invalid
"The SS fandom believes that once Naruto beats some sense into Sasuke, he will finally accept that caring side of Sakura that he rejected during his curse mark period, and that's where the relationship will start from there."
his defensive argument

"Anything is possible in the Narutoverse LOL."

Later.
My argument.
"Did you hear what itachi told to sasuke to think about his comrades and friends he would not leave them behind again, and after it they arrived again, and moreover that raikage stuff was to make naruto grown he was sticking to another idea, even kakashi went just to give a chance to naruto because naruto was innocent, raikage teach him a lesson about the world."

His argument:
"He said that to Sasuke? Well in any case, that would apply to his old team as well. We did have an instance of Sasuke thinking about team 7 during part 2 of the series.

He found his resolve because the Raikage & Gaara helped him too. But even Kakashi told him that he doesn't need to risk his life to save Sasuke, he has the title of Hokage to think about. Naruto still says in that chapter that he can't become Hokage if he can't even said one friend.

Do not overstep your boundaries when applying real world logic to Narutoverse logic. That will most likely not be the case when it comes to whatever final pairing that Kishi wants. Need I remind you that Obito almost blew up baby Naruto because of 1 girl.

Some of your arguments are deeply rooted with real world logic. There's no need to tell you how wrong that is.

Let's level with the common sense in the world of Naruto, k?"

this is the level of his arguments, i told him something he made a claim that i'm using real logic to base my arguments when i did not even used real logic to apply.

Ending:
he:
In 592 he's at least seeing team 7 in that panel, but not team taka. Like I said before, Karin, Suigetsu, and Juugo are just tools to Sasuke more than teammates. The level of care he's shown to them pales in comparison to the care he's shown to team 7.

me:
he was talking what's a shinobi, and appears ino, shikamaru, chouji,kiba and lots of random ninjas on the background, i told you it's not about friends.
Your argument is invalid.

She's thorugh with him then why she's going back to sasuke, and karin is a tsundere she always reject her feelings.

he:
I said he's at least seeing team 7 in that panel. It's like you're not even reading my post. My patience can only endure so much with you. If you're simply going to give me the impression that you're just skimming through my post, then there is no need for further discussion.

Good day.

then he drops without showing any proof or something to make his statement valid.
It's my fault then?

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 December 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[PhenixElite]

The difference is you don't call your opponent a troll every other comment. That is arguing, not debating. You just push people away with language like that, which is why most of the time you'll never get the answer you desire.




But that's what I'm trying to say. When it comes to abusive relationships, there should be no different between if they are just a friend or if they are a lover. It's not okay for someone you call a friend to do so many terrible things to you just like it's not ok for a lover to do those things to you.

Sasuke has abused Naruto more than Sakura at this point. They are ninja's, but they are human. It's not everyday a best friend goes rouge and gets friendly with S-class enemies of the place you call home. It's not everyday that they declare they'll destroy everything you care about, just so they think they can feel better about their pathetic life.

Just like I don't think Sakura should love or care about Sasuke, I don't think Naruto should care about Sasuke either. The "it's a bad message" fits perfectly with Naruto's attitude towards "rescuing" Sasuke just as much as it fits with Sakura attitude towards Sasuke.

True, but why is it a bad message if you try to save your best friend even if hes abusive.
I only see it as a bad message to love or better said try to get together with someone whos abusive.

[kirabook]

True, but why is it a bad message if you try to save your best friend even if hes abusive.
I only see it as a bad message to love or better said try to get together with someone whos abusive.

Suppose you have a friend since childhood, you loved him (not in a romantic way, but completely friendship) as you got older, he started borrowing your things without asking, breaking you stuff and never replacing it, have people in your house who steal things, continue to call you names and put you down, never take your opinions seriously and treated you like dirt. But when everyone tells you to stop being friends with them because they're just ruining your life, you say "It's ok. He's my best friend, I know he doesn't mean it." even though all the evidence shows they are nothing but trouble and will never change.

You're telling me it's ok to save THAT friend, the one who does nothing but take and is ready to throw you away on a whim and couldn't give 2 s**** about your feelings and the friendship you've had all that time? It's ok to continue to pursue any relationship, be it friends, family, or romance, if the party that 'needs' saving doesn't want to be saved and continues to hurt you in the process?

Friends can be abusive to friends. Sasuke is abusive to Naruto, not romantically, but as a 'friend'. It is the equivalent to a lover who abuses the one he 'loves'. There is no difference. Why is it ok for Naruto to pursue his sad journey of 'rescuing' his 'friend' but not for Sakura to pursue her 'love'? It's not ok, Naruto should drop it all together. It's a "bad message" just like Sakura's is a bad message.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Suppose you have a friend since childhood, you loved him (not in a romantic way, but completely friendship) as you got older, he started borrowing your things without asking, breaking you stuff and never replacing it, have people in your house who steal things, continue to call you names and put you down, never take your opinions seriously and treated you like dirt. But when everyone tells you to stop being friends with them because they're just ruining your life, you say "It's ok. He's my best friend, I know he doesn't mean it." even though all the evidence shows they are nothing but trouble and will never change.

You're telling me it's ok to save THAT friend, the one who does nothing but take and is ready to throw you away on a whim and couldn't give 2 s**** about your feelings and the friendship you've had all that time? It's ok to continue to pursue any relationship, be it friends, family, or romance, if the party that 'needs' saving doesn't want to be saved and continues to hurt you in the process?

Friends can be abusive to friends. Sasuke is abusive to Naruto, not romantically, but as a 'friend'. It is the equivalent to a lover who abuses the one he 'loves'. There is no difference. Why is it ok for Naruto to pursue his sad journey of 'rescuing' his 'friend' but not for Sakura to pursue her 'love'? It's not ok, Naruto should drop it all together. It's a "bad message" just like Sakura's is a bad message.

The bad message is not related to the fact since childhood is the fact that he tried to kill her two times, and didnt showed her any romance sign, he treated her like a trash, and get along with him at the end, is absurd, i prefer sakura to be alone than paired with sasuke.

[PhenixElite]

Suppose you have a friend since childhood, you loved him (not in a romantic way, but completely friendship) as you got older, he started borrowing your things without asking, breaking you stuff and never replacing it, have people in your house who steal things, continue to call you names and put you down, never take your opinions seriously and treated you like dirt. But when everyone tells you to stop being friends with them because they're just ruining your life, you say "It's ok. He's my best friend, I know he doesn't mean it." even though all the evidence shows they are nothing but trouble and will never change.

You're telling me it's ok to save THAT friend, the one who does nothing but take and is ready to throw you away on a whim and couldn't give 2 s**** about your feelings and the friendship you've had all that time? It's ok to continue to pursue any relationship, be it friends, family, or romance, if the party that 'needs' saving doesn't want to be saved and continues to hurt you in the process?

Friends can be abusive to friends. Sasuke is abusive to Naruto, not romantically, but as a 'friend'. It is the equivalent to a lover who abuses the one he 'loves'. There is no difference. Why is it ok for Naruto to pursue his sad journey of 'rescuing' his 'friend' but not for Sakura to pursue her 'love'? It's not ok, Naruto should drop it all together. It's a "bad message" just like Sakura's is a bad message.

Correct its a bad message till now but it will change in to a good one with the fact sakura not coming together with sasuke.

[kirabook]

The bad message is not related to the fact since childhood is the fact that he tried to kill her two times, and didnt showed her any romance sign, he treated her like a trash, and get along with him at the end, is absurd, i prefer sakura to be alone than paired with sasuke.

That's not the point. I'm not saying it isn't a bad message. What I'm saying is it's not a very strong point.

Some support Naruto and his quest to redeem Sasuke, that's a major plot point in the manga. Naruto striving to bring back Sasuke, an abusive friend (that is just as bad as an abusive lover towards Sakura) is also a bad message. It's hypocritical to say Sakura's situation is a bad message, yet Naruto's is not. There are bad messages all throughout the manga, spreading a bad message to his target audience is not a problem for Kishi, therefore the "bad message" line doesn't really mean much.

That said, Sasuke should not end up with Sakura. Being a NS fan and all, I do not believe Sasuke will because of the facts presented to us throughout the manga till now do not appear to be going in that direction. *Not repeating them again, just read my previous posts* It is better to use the facts rather than weaker points like SS bringing a bad message since it's not the only bad message presented to us.

Correct its a bad message till now but it will change in to a good one with the fact sakura not coming together with sasuke.

The only good message that can come from Naruto and Sasuke's situation is Naruto finally dropping Sasuke and leaving him be. He doesn't want help, so leave him alone. Maybe after the first time Naruto found Sasuke and Sasuke decided to return (after he didn't do anything too bad other than train with Orochimaru) it would have been ok. But Sasuke is too far gone now. No one should have to work so hard if someone truly wants to be helped. If you give your friend your home, your family, your love, all you have left is to give them your life. (Which won't help the situation whatsoever since you know, you'll be dead and they'll still be doing what they want)

Edited by kirabook, 12 December 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

That's not the point. I'm not saying it isn't a bad message. What I'm saying is it's not a very strong point.

Some support Naruto and his quest to redeem Sasuke, that's a major plot point in the manga. Naruto striving to bring back Sasuke, an abusive friend (that is just as bad as an abusive lover towards Sakura) is also a bad message. It's hypocritical to say Sakura's situation is a bad message, yet Naruto's is not. There are bad messages all throughout the manga, spreading a bad message to his target audience is not a problem for Kishi, therefore the "bad message" line doesn't really mean much.

That said, Sasuke should not end up with Sakura. Being a NS fan and all, I do not believe Sasuke will because of the facts presented to us throughout the manga till now do not appear to be going in that direction. *Not repeating them again, just read my previous posts* It is better to use the facts rather than weaker points like SS bringing a bad message since it's not the only bad message presented to us.

Kishi explained why naruto wants to save sasuke, it's abusive is, he should die yes, but sasuke is a example of what naruto could have became it's his antagonist.
About the message if it's bad or not i have no opinion about it.
Because it's something that i cant simply understand because he did very bad stuff, and it's increasing more and more, my point is there's a limit for sasuke actions?, how far naruto can tolerate this?
Sasuke ressurrected orochimaru naruto will tolerate this too?

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 December 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[kirabook]

Actually, I believe Obito is the definition of what Naruto could have and can become if certain things happen.

Maybe Sasuke used to be Naruto's parallel, but now he's just an opposing force. I don't think Naruto could ever become so side tracked on his goals (by that I mean completing his goal, but then letting someone else talk him into another goal that doesn't really solve anything.)

[PhenixElite]

That's not the point. I'm not saying it isn't a bad message. What I'm saying is it's not a very strong point.

Some support Naruto and his quest to redeem Sasuke, that's a major plot point in the manga. Naruto striving to bring back Sasuke, an abusive friend (that is just as bad as an abusive lover towards Sakura) is also a bad message. It's hypocritical to say Sakura's situation is a bad message, yet Naruto's is not. There are bad messages all throughout the manga, spreading a bad message to his target audience is not a problem for Kishi, therefore the "bad message" line doesn't really mean much.

That said, Sasuke should not end up with Sakura. Being a NS fan and all, I do not believe Sasuke will because of the facts presented to us throughout the manga till now do not appear to be going in that direction. *Not repeating them again, just read my previous posts* It is better to use the facts rather than weaker points like SS bringing a bad message since it's not the only bad message presented to us.




The only good message that can come from Naruto and Sasuke's situation is Naruto finally dropping Sasuke and leaving him be. He doesn't want help, so leave him alone. Maybe after the first time Naruto found Sasuke and Sasuke decided to return (after he didn't do anything too bad other than train with Orochimaru) it would have been ok. But Sasuke is too far gone now. No one should have to work so hard if someone truly wants to be helped. If you give your friend your home, your family, your love, all you have left is to give them your life. (Which won't help the situation whatsoever since you know, you'll be dead and they'll still be doing what they want)

Yeah for me its ok if he redeems sasuke and he becomes wanderer. Its also ok if he dies but will see. The point is that its not the message thats delivered during the manga that counts, its the massage in the end of it.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

i dont think obito is the definition of what naruto could've become because we dont know if naruto would became like obito if sakura dies.

Sasuke is the guy that naruto could've became if instead of stayin in the village and protect it, he chose to pursue revenge against the villagers for what they did with him when he was a kid.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 December 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[Chatte]

I don't know you guys, but those looks, Naruto's when Sakura asks him to bring Sasuke back and then Sakura's when she says to herself that Hinata loves Naruto... Why the necessity to draw them? Really now?
Why the suffer in their eyes if they don't care and love the other guys?
Why that chapter when Sakura has that sad face realizing that Hinata loves Naruto is called "The Last Gamble"? When suprisingly enough, Jiraiya and Tsunade made their last bet (Tsunade's last gamble) that she, indeed, lost, but was about to accept Jiraiya's love, why?
I may be reading too much into it but...dunno, you just don't develop a pair that much together, put hints here and there, make parallels all around so that the supposed pair that should be together will end with someone else.

[Zatheko]

I don't know you guys, but those looks, Naruto's when Sakura asks him to bring Sasuke back and then Sakura's when she says to herself that Hinata loves Naruto... Why the necessity to draw them? Really now?
Why the suffer in their eyes if they don't care and love the other guys?
Why that chapter when Sakura has that sad face realizing that Hinata loves Naruto is called "The Last Gamble"? When suprisingly enough, Jiraiya and Tsunade made their last bet (Tsunade's last gamble) that she, indeed, lost, but was about to accept Jiraiya's love, why?
I may be reading too much into it but...dunno, you just don't develop a pair that much together, put hints here and there, make parallels all around so that the supposed pair that should be together will end with someone else.

I agree, and also with the movies and the fillers (yes I know they aren't canon) If they werent together in the end then certain fillers and movies like RTN would seem awkward to me, why have moments of those two together if they weren't going to be together in the first place, it would just add confusion.