756 replies to this topic

[RulesofNature]

The problem is that Naruto was written without any clear goal in mind, aside from Naruto getting the respect of his peers and probably becoming Hokage. As such, it was written pretty much on the fly with new elements being added by editorial mandate. The Chunin exams were implemented because the editors wanted to expand the cast, including a villain for the series, whereas Kishi originally wanted Team 7 to go on multiple adventure arcs and learning about the world around them. The Akatsuki and their goal of collecting all the Tailed Beasts were another thing added, as Gaara wasn't meant to be a jinchuuriki like Naruto rather than being in a similar position as Naruto.

 

Unfortunately, this resulted in Naruto becoming more and more of a mess as time went on and it barely tried to hide it. The problems began to add up as the series continued: new information contradicted old or was nonsensical in terms of the world (like how the Uzumaki's became a big thing in-universe), we got the continuous narrative of how rotten the ninja system is and needed to be reformed/demolished, and we have the things they just pulled out of nowhere. There was never  plan on how to grow these characters, and that involved improving their abilities, which led to the apathy we saw in the ending. They don't care that they've turned Naruto into a scumbag, Sasuke into a pawn for Konoha or Sakura into an addict because there never was any real destination for them so it was easy for the staff to shoehorn them into their current state.

[Nostradamus]

How could he possibly not have known that he was the 4th's son? Minato spent all his time in the company of a woman named Uzumaki Kushina. This woman, Kushina, becomes pregnant by Minato. Then they die and this boy who looks a mini Minato now exists. A boy with the surname Uzumaki. Why did Kakashi treat him that way? Did he resent Kushina? Was he bitter at Minato for being another father figure who left him? Who knows, but either way it wasn't Naruto's fault, and he's a piece of kitten.

There a lot of issues with how the story started and they way it continued. I can understand why Kishi made Kakashi at first not being aware that Naruto is Minato's son, because it wasn't something set in stone to be revealed later on, but it was poorly done from the start. He could've had a couple of moments where Kakashi is ambiguous about Naruto, so the reader can either take that as a foreshadow about his lineage or something else entirely. But instead he picked the route of Kakashi had no idea until he magically did.

Or something that always bugged me is, who took care of Naruto as a child?

 

Yep, Kakashi (and Itachi, Jiraiya and such) show that just because you're a skilled shinobi, it doesn't mean you'll make a good teacher. Both Kakashi and Itachi's attempts to "teach" Sasuke only resulted in him becoming WORSE than before while Jiraiya only made one single attempt to instill a sense of reality in Naruto, only to give up when Naruto rejected it and, if anything, indulged Naruto's naive and even foolish idealism.

Ah the whole Never Giving Up nonsense strikes again. I get the message that Kishi or Yahagi more likely him was trying to convey to the readers. But that was so stupid.

How hard can it be to implement some limits to that? To give a positive message and also say when it's time to stop, not because you gave up, but because it's pointless since no matter how hard you try, you cannot change someone who just doesn't want to be changed.

Jiraiya indulging in Naruto's fantasy after he saw what happened to Naruto and even what happened to himself after Orochimaru, was a major letdown.

[James S Cassidy]

On the point of consistency... I only meant that in regards to Hinata's stupid romantic feelings, not their entire characters. It would have been so easy for Kishi to throw in something KibaHina or even do more NejiHina things during Shippuden, to set himself up for later. But he didn't do that at all. And that is a point in their favor as much as I don't want to admit it. Hinata only likes Naruto. I can't hate her for liking Naruto. Everything else is quite hateable, though, I grant you that much.

 

 

Something just occurred to me. Not sure if anyone has ever brought up this point before about NS. Maybe they have. But I'm going to.

 

You know how it's always said that Sasuke is Naruto's best friend?

 

These two are very relatable to a more generalised topic on what I call "Why is anybody anything to anyone?"

I mean, a crush is just fine for starters. We find some attraction in people all the time, but most of the time it ends up either being nothing or it doesn't go anywhere. This is no the case with Naruto and all these characters. Why are Naruto and Sasuke best friends? How are they best friends? They don't hang out like best friends, they don't eat together, they don't talk about their problems. They just fight and continue to fight. The idea of "best friends" is basically Naruto's own illusion until Sasuke agrees to do be that best friend. A best friend will go out of their way to do things for you because they want to. Sasuke wanted nothng to do with Naruto even when Naruto begged and pleaded. So how are they best friends? They are rivals, pure and simple, with Naruto being the annoying reject who wants to be best friends with the cool kid to gain higher status.

Naruto even fuels this more by telling his own kid that Sasuke was the cool one, but was a failure unlike himself who was always popular. Which we know is a downright lie. Sure, Naruto may be exaggerating, but to lie like that in his kid? Yeah, more lies Naruto.

Truth is there is no real reason why they are best friends. We are not shown, we are told they are best friends and it is hammered into us until we accept it. Think about it, what have they done together as best friends that is not filler? I'll wait...

This also applies to everything else
Why is Sakura in love wth Sasuke?

Why is Hinata in love with Naruto?

Like I said, a crush is fine to start out with because we have some idea, but a crush cannot become love until you actually KNOW the person. Which leads me to one huge issue is that Sakura knows nothing of Sasuke andHinata knows nothing of Naruto, but Naruto knew everything about Sakura. He even says on two occasions "I understand why I like her so much." Naruto admits that he loves more than just a silly crush. THAT is love. He saw her at her worst and her best and he loved both of them. He saw HER. Not what he WANTED to see. This is why SS and NH are so unrealistic because Hinata doesn't see Naruto as he is, but rather what she wants him to be. Sakura doesn't see Sasuke as he is, but rather what she wants him to be. It is kitten.

The pro-enders claims about love froma  young age and blah blah blah, but they don't do what real couples do. A real love couples don't abandon each other because they couldn't be bothered.

This is one more reason why NS is the true love couple. They cared for eachother because they wanted to and not because they hoped to get noticed. I hate this fact that the so called "crush" of Sakura and Hinata to Sasuke and Naruto respectfully is considered "True love," but the actual true love is only considered a crush. It urks me to this day when people are "Aww, NH got together as it should be" based on only the fact that Hinata had a crush in him. Every time someone says that I want to punch them. WTF?

 

 

The rabbit hole is so deep. The second you notice that something couldn't possibly make sense to do if this was the ending he planned, that's it. There's no going back. You're never going to accept it again, never going to like it again, even if you liked it to begin with, which is unlikely. And you notice more and more all the time. And you NEVER notice anything that's like, "Wow! This is a perfect foreshadowing or setup to the ending that he made!" That never happens. It's just... so obvious. How can anyone not see it? Are they in the Matrix?

 

The more you think about Naruto, the worse the story gets.This is why the pro-enders like the story so much...they don't really think about it.

 

I'm way pass the part when Sakura begging like a pathetic whore asking for the man to take responsibilities and i'm not talking about the desperate confessions. My point is why they make Sasuke says all those things about hes not interested and shes daydreaming bla bla bla when she still conscious , why not say all of that to her face directly so she can hear it ? why knock her out cold then say all of that it's pointless if she can't hear it.

 

He did. He did everytime he tried to kill her, hurt her, left her for dead, told her she was annoying, and even the sheer fact that he attacked her in the first place. If everything he did before was never going to convince her...then nothing would have. The dude did everything he could to say "No" and she kept coming after him saying "But you need to be with me."

 

Doesn't help with Naruto and Kakashi saying "You need to be with Sakura, otherwise we are going to keep forcing you to comeback untily you do." It is not that Sasuke wasn't say anything...it was that nobody was living....not even the fandom. All they did was live in denial. Eventually Sasuke just does whatever to shut her up because he alreayd tried fighting and killing her and he can't do it because Naruto would just stop him anyway. It is also not like he was given a choice until after he agreed to everything.

 

We have no evidence that he did marry her. She lives in his house and has his name, but she might have just decided to do that and he let her because he didn't care. 

 

There's nothing that points to them marrying, and his behavior towards Sakura and his up-until-now-unkown-child (uh, love child anyone?) says to me that Sasuke slept with Sakura 12 years ago and hasn't thought about her since. So...not married in my book.

As I keep asking pro-enders, where is the proof that they are married? Salad asks questions all the time to Sakura and she keeps responding with "I don't know" or gives some lame side story that didn't answer the question.

Even Salad, their supposedly own freaking daughter, doesn't believe they are married. Sakura has no wedding ring, no wedding pictures, nothing to prove that she and Sasuke are married. At least NH had a wedding. Sasuke has been gone for almost two decades. When did they get married? Oh I know, in that one supposed SS fanfic many fans believe happened. Sakura just slapped the Uchiha symbol on and fakes being Sasuke's wife. As as she leaves him alone, he doesn't care. Heck, not even Sasuke himself wears the Uchiha symbol.

 

Man of thousand Justus and we only saw 1 of them.

7 actually.
Chidori, Rasengan, Water dragon, dog summoning, Shadow clone, and some earth styles.

Still better than Naruto who maybe only showed 5 at most and one could argue that 2 of these could be just the same technique.
Rasengan, Rasenshurikan, shadow clone, sage mode, and frog summoning.

[BlueStarSaber]

The very lack of real progress with Naruto during his "training trip" with Jiraiya is why I sometimes go as far as to say ALL of part two should be redone from the ground up, not just post-Pein Arc. I mean, the only real excuse to have Naruto come back virtually unchanged outside of slight variants of what we've already seen (and learning the attempt to use more of Kurama's chakra ultimately failed overall) was solely to make Sasuke look OP after the same amount of time and give an excuse to have Naruto learn something else...and yet only Sasuke seemed to drive it, not the threat of Akatsuki (which was the MAIN POINT of the training trip to begin with) or anything. After the attempt to have Naruto use more of Kurama's chakra failed, Jiraiya should have immediately set out to have Naruto widen his arsenal (and Kage Bunshin could help master them faster; something else Jiraiya seemed to stupidly forget about) while also redoubling his own attempts to knock some reality into Naruto's head. The incident at the bridge was a clear show of how Naruto was still that same naive, immature child that left Konoha since all it took was for Orochimaru to mock him and talk about Sasuke and Naruto just lost it and could have easily resulted in him killing Sakura and Yamato.
And teaching Naruto solely how to use more of Kurama's chakra is counterproductive not only because of it being Akatsuki's goal, but also because of the fact their team pairs were based specifically on directly countering the power of the Biju or Jinchuriki they would be targeting.
In Naruto's case, you had...
- Itachi - aside from his own natural, prodigious skills that make Naruto look like nothing (and he still could have gone a lot further if not for that BS sickness and such), he would be able to suppress Kurama's chakra with the Sharingan (as Sasuke demonstrated easily enough with his own) while the Mangekyo Sharingan would also be able to do serious damage with Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, with Susano'o being a hidden trump card.
- Kisame - he had, by Neji's account, chakra reserves as big as Naruto's (and that was only from the Shape Shift clone that only had, at best, around 30% of the original's power), water skills said to be nearly on par with Tobirama Senju (who was seen as THE strongest water user in shinobi history aside from Hagaromo, of course), and possessed Samehada, which, aside from being able to easily handle Naruto in close-range combat, could devour Kurama's chakra and strip Naruto of all his extra juice and add it to his own as he demonstrated by being able to easily take down Bee single-handed, even when Bee was using seven tails worth of Gyuki's chakra.
...either one of them could have easily owned Naruto, but together? Yeah...
In terms of sensei-blaming though, it largely falls on Kakashi because he is a much more constant presence in the story, and with the consequences of his mistakes ultimately playing bigger roles. I know some like to point out Nagato as a huge mistake when it comes to Jiraiya, but as far as we can tell, he didn't seem to really do anything wrong in terms of teaching him, Yahiko, and Konan. What happened with Nagato wasn't really Jiraiya's fault, but rather Hanzo's and Danzo's actions that made Nagato into Pein.

Honestly it feels like naruto should of just had the rasenshiriken, wind element and sage mode taught during between the time skip with jiraya, or least have them near preferred but just needs a little training. Etheir one could of been jiraya's warning for naruto not use that just at the begging of part 2

[RulesofNature]

 

Ah the whole Never Giving Up nonsense strikes again. I get the message that Kishi or Yahagi more likely him was trying to convey to the readers. But that was so stupid.

How hard can it be to implement some limits to that? To give a positive message and also say when it's time to stop, not because you gave up, but because it's pointless since no matter how hard you try, you cannot change someone who just doesn't want to be changed.

Jiraiya indulging in Naruto's fantasy after he saw what happened to Naruto and even what happened to himself after Orochimaru, was a major letdown.

 

You know, part of me wants to say that's too cynical but I have to agree. Fact is, dreams are great and all but you also have to be able to see reality otherwise your dream/actions can become self-destructive. Naruto ended up obsessed with bringing Sasuke back, which in turn helped him look away from the reality of the ninja system he ended up continuing. Hinata's obsession with Naruto ended up with her devoting herself to someone she only believed she understood and was possessive of. Sakura ended up as an addict in Kishi's words. Sasuke was unable to deal with the truth of the massacre, causing him to look for new targets to seek retribution from and now his desire to atone has him submitting to being Konoha's weapon.

 

We can go on.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

You know, part of me wants to say that's too cynical but I have to agree. Fact is, dreams are great and all but you also have to be able to see reality otherwise your dream/actions can become self-destructive. Naruto ended up obsessed with bringing Sasuke back, which in turn helped him look away from the reality of the ninja system he ended up continuing. Hinata's obsession with Naruto ended up with her devoting herself to someone she only believed she understood and was possessive of. Sakura ended up as an addict in Kishi's words. Sasuke was unable to deal with the truth of the massacre, causing him to look for new targets to seek retribution from and now his desire to atone has him submitting to being Konoha's weapon.

 

We can go on.

Yeah, there's nothing with having ideals as long as they are balanced out with reality. People like Hashirama, Jiraiya, and Minato had similar dreams of "true peace" as Naruto, but  they didn't just ignore reality in favor of living with permanent rose-tinted goggles either. As you, and as we were shown, doing so only results in self-destruction. Naruto's stupid hyperventilating after being shot down by Ay was basically a physical attempt to try to maintain his fantasy bubble world after Ay and reality poked a big hole in it; Naruto clearly just expects everyone else to think similarly to himself.

As I mentioned several times before, without reality to balance out the idealism, Naruto just becomes an opposite extreme to the likes of Obito and Madara (and a similar extreme as Nagato) and is no more better for the world than they were. Whereas Obito and Madara opted to strip humanity of their individuality and free will with a massive genjutsu, Nagato and Naruto are ones who would use brute force (and thus fear) to intimidate and force others into agreeing with their views; Nagato with the Gedo Mazo through handing it around to villages so they destroy each other until everyone is too afraid to wage war lest they get obliterated by it, or Naruto just beating up enemies who reject his views. Let's not forget how, after Sasuke rejects Naruto's initial attempt to get him to return to Konoha through pleading, what does Naruto say? "I'll bring you back even if I have to break every bone in your body!" Basically, "You're not just listening to me and what I want you to do, so I'll just physically force my will onto you instead and make you do what I want you to do."

[James S Cassidy]

Yeah, there's nothing with having ideals as long as they are balanced out with reality. People like Hashirama, Jiraiya, and Minato had similar dreams of "true peace" as Naruto, but  they didn't just ignore reality in favor of living with permanent rose-tinted goggles either. As you, and as we were shown, doing so only results in self-destruction. Naruto's stupid hyperventilating after being shot down by Ay was basically a physical attempt to try to maintain his fantasy bubble world after Ay and reality poked a big hole in it; Naruto clearly just expects everyone else to think similarly to himself.

As I mentioned several times before, without reality to balance out the idealism, Naruto just becomes an opposite extreme to the likes of Obito and Madara (and a similar extreme as Nagato) and is no more better for the world than they were. Whereas Obito and Madara opted to strip humanity of their individuality and free will with a massive genjutsu, Nagato and Naruto are ones who would use brute force (and thus fear) to intimidate and force others into agreeing with their views; Nagato with the Gedo Mazo through handing it around to villages so they destroy each other until everyone is too afraid to wage war lest they get obliterated by it, or Naruto just beating up enemies who reject his views. Let's not forget how, after Sasuke rejects Naruto's initial attempt to get him to return to Konoha through pleading, what does Naruto say? "I'll bring you back even if I have to break every bone in your body!" Basically, "You're not just listening to me and what I want you to do, so I'll just physically force my will onto you instead and make you do what I want you to do."

Apparently in naruto, everyone falls for the talk-no-jutsu simply because Naruto says it.

Hashirama: "We need to have peace"
Everyone: "No."

Jiriaya: "Maybe we should give peace a try"
Everyone: "No"

Minato: "We should try peace."
Everyone: "No"

Naruto: "Hey, we shoud all sign a peace treaty"
Everyone: "Why?"
Naruto: "Because I said so."
Everyone: "Good enough for us. Let's do it."

Hashirama, Jiriaya, MInato: "WTF?!!!"

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Apparently in naruto, everyone falls for the talk-no-jutsu simply because Naruto says it.

Hashirama: "We need to have peace"
Everyone: "No."

Jiriaya: "Maybe we should give peace a try"
Everyone: "No"

Minato: "We should try peace."
Everyone: "No"

Naruto: "Hey, we shoud all sign a peace treaty"
Everyone: "Why?"
Naruto: "Because I said so."
Everyone: "Good enough for us. Let's do it."

Hashirama, Jiriaya, MInato: "WTF?!!!"

Naruto: "We should try peace"

Everyone: "Why?"

Naruto: "Because it's what I want."

Everyone: "No."

Naruto: "Do it, or i'll break you apart and scatter the pieces to every corner of the world, then destroy any traces of your family and lineage."

Everyone: "....fine."

[Yyubie]

Look at how Jiraya train Yahiko , Nagato and Konan in least than a year .... they turn into a powerful beast. And look at how Jiraya train Naruto in 2-3 years?? he still remain weak like a cockroach. Jiraya only teach Naruto how to use and control his tailed beast chakra and how to free himself from genjutsu (excluding the frog summon because that is part of the tailed beast chakra control training). I see Jiraya use earth and fire elemental attack , for once ... just for once i like , i wish to see Naruto forming a complicated seal to summon an elemental attack ... but sadly Jiraya and Kakashi refuse to teach him and Sakura anything about that. Naruto has a lot of chakra and using rasen shuriken is risky , eat lot's of chakra and can only use twice and need to be in sage mode , why don't teach him something lighter?

 

Kakashi and Jiraya is those type of people that .... they success and powerful and rich but they refuse to share how to be successful. Despite the fact that one of the moral message is surpassing the previous generation.

Edited by Yyubie, 12 February 2018 - 04:59 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Naruto: "We should try peace"

Everyone: "Why?"

Naruto: "Because it's what I want."

Everyone: "No."

Naruto: "Do it, or i'll break you apart and scatter the pieces to every corner of the world, then destroy any traces of your family and lineage."

Everyone: "....fine."

Heil Naruto.

[winter-serenade]

I mean, Kakashi is very responsible for the state of Naruto the character and series being ruined. If he hadn't coddled Sasuke, teaching him powerful techniques, Naruto doesn't become obsessed with him, Naruto probably beats him up at VOTE1, which Sakura would be very touched by his success, Sasuke would continue to be a kitten to her except now Naruto is clearly superior to him and he's now fulfilled his promise to bring back a Sasuke who is probably in jail, she probably stops being obsessed with Sasuke as well. Basically everything is good, Sasuke stops being important, Naruto can still do everything, and the characters don't become twisted and pathetic. Kakashi is more to blame than probably any single other character other than Sasuke and Naruto themselves.

 

i'd like to read a fanfiction about that. Doesn't even have to have NaruSaku, I'd be genuinely interested and how things would be different and unfold.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

i'd like to read a fanfiction about that. Doesn't even have to have NaruSaku, I'd be genuinely interested and how things would be different and unfold.

 

Funny enough, the fanfiction I'm working on is like that, and adds its own elements to the mix of things as well :) THough I have hit a small slump with it, and am working my way back to it

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I wrote a thread "To what extent is Kakashi responsible for kittening up team 7." a bit ago and It didn't get this much honesty  

He's pretty damn responsible. 

[tricksie]

Good thread...I could reply to every post. but I'll try to be brief 

Man of thousand Justus and we only saw 1 of them.

Yes! That's the most obvious fail of Kakashi — the fact that this skill that is his nickname is never ever ever touched on again. Nothing in Naruto comes full circle, including Kakahi's copy ninja abilities. Obito gave him this skill (his eye), then proceeded to kill everyone around him. But the ability to memorize techniques was never useful for any purpose in the story other than making Kakashi look fierce in the beginning. 

 

His favoritism and stupidity pissed me off. He started to piss me off since he criticized Jiraiya for teaching Naruto the Rasengan a technique that Jiraiya taught him in order to defend himself from Akatsuki, but he had no problem teaching Sasuke the guy who demonstrated that he's a moron and not stable in the head, the Chidori a technique meant for assassinations.

He only started to show some positivity towards Naruto when Sasuke left and when Naruto was confirmed to be the 4th's son. Such an ass kisser. 

Right - Kakashi was undeveloped as teacher. Sarutobi said from the beginning 'he has a nose for these troubled types' or something like that. What??? Where's the back story on that? Did Kakashi have other teachers? And there was an interaction between Jiraiya and Kakashi that showed some friction too. But as for the techniques, there's no reason as to why he gave Sasuke more attention/expert techniques than Naruto. And there is no explaining of why Kakashi has friction or background doing so. (I'm not including Sakura. She literally got nothing from Kakashi.)

 

I was actually worried as far back as the end of the Pein Arc with Hinatata's confession. Not for confessing in general, but HOW it was done - making it out to be some hugely momentous occasion that required EVERYTHING TO BE STOPPED in order to completely focus on it. I mean, we had Naruto pinned, we had a tense situation where we wondered if Pein was going to succeed in capturing Naruto or if Naruto was going to turn things around somehow, then *SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH!!!!!!* Heeeeeeeeeeeeeere, she comes to "save the daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy-NOT!!!!

 

Yep, Kakashi (and Itachi, Jiraiya and such) show that just because you're a skilled shinobi, it doesn't mean you'll make a good teacher. Both Kakashi and Itachi's attempts to "teach" Sasuke only resulted in him becoming WORSE than before while Jiraiya only made one single attempt to instill a sense of reality in Naruto, only to give up when Naruto rejected it and, if anything, indulged Naruto's naive and even foolish idealism.

Now that I think about it, the way things are now could have been foreshadowed quite a bit too - the fact that nobody can truly let go of the past and it because they can't, it only ends up making things worse for each new generation.

And actually, Kakashi seemed to all but admit to Naruto that he DID know that he was Minato's son the whole time; before the Edo Kages showed up, Kakashi proudly said to Naruto something along the lines of including, "..as the son of the Fourth...". This would mean that Kakashi cared more about his own self-pity and need to "redeem" himself for failing Obito than looking after his "beloved sensei's" own flesh and blood, possibly even being among those who blamed Naruto for Minato's death.

 

Yes about Hinata!! I didn't think about it that way, but in the Pain arc they did have to stop the whole manga to focus on her. Same as at the end. Yeah....that's a mark of a crappy character if you have to stop the whole production because they literally don't fit in otherwise. I should have seen it coming!!!

 

And about Kakashi — there seems to be a big backstory missing here. An explanation of why Kakashi didn't take up for Naruto. It's pretty simple to explain away: Kakashi was a middle teen, starting in anbu and definitely dealing with ptsd. He would have been TERRIBLE for Naruto as a parent/guardian. And this would have been easily explained. But just like Genma-turning-out-to-be-Minato's-secret-guard, there seems to have been a lot of people who would have known that Minato had a baby with his girlfriend. It's not just a plot hole, it's a failing on the part of the editors.

 

Well guys, not that I disagree with anything said about Kaakshi's teaching methods, but let's be honest here, the real issue was that there was little to no thought put into Naruto and Sakura's powers compared to Sasuke, and that is solely because Sasuke is the creator's pet and by extension all Uchiha.

 

I mean if we really are going to blame Kakashi for not teaching Naruto or Sakura anything, doesn't that extend to Jiraiya and Tsunade too? Jiraya knew Naruto would be targeted by Akatsuki and therefore taught him Rasengan, but why didn't he teach Naruto anything else. wouldn't it have made more sense to teach Naruto other abilities to keep him more versatile for any threat because teaching Naruto only rasengan and some form of rudimentary form of control (if you can call it that) over Kurama's chakra essentially makes him a limited one trick pony that can't deal with other situations. A bigger Rasengan is STILL a Rasengan, and therefore has all the faults and limitations of Rasengan and now Naruto wastes more chakra performing it. Plus isn't teaching Naruto to use tail beast chakra more counter productive than a benefit, since Akatsuki is after him for that very reason, so wouldn't that just make it easer for them to gain access it? Point is, Naruto was no better prepared to deal with Akatsuki when Jiraiya trained him. Deidara  for instance, expoited the fact that Naruto was a close range fighter with no projectile attacks to speak of. Also why was it not Jiraiya  that teaches Naruto elemental manipullation? If Minato told Kakashi about his intent to fuse an element into Rasengan, I'm pretty sure he told Jiraiya too, because there was no flashback indicating he only shared this knowledge with Kakashi. 

 

As for Tsunade and Sakura, well they ARE medics so they do actually need to save chakra to heal but here is the thing. Tsunade should know that a medic should be as susceptible as anyone else to being attacked, and probably even more so if someone decided to target the medic first. And let's be real, teaching a medic to dodge is a limited skill and can only deal with attacks a medic can see or react to, which is beyond their ability if it is an instantaneous or impossibly quick ninjutsu, or even bombs. So why doesn't she create a medical fighting style that can  handles heavy ninjutsu users and use as little chakra as possible to protect her life since a medic must survive to ensure the team survives? And Why couldn't she teach this to Sakura?

 

My argument utimately is, is if we are going to blame a teacher for Naruto' and Sakura's lack of growth compared to sasuke, It is not the fault of just a single teacher. The real reason that they seem so limited in skill and abilities is be beacuse Kishimoto was to busy jacking off to and character shilling the Uchiha to bother with Naruto and Sakura. Plain and simple

Yes, yes, yes! They are all horrible teachers in my book. None of them are very focused on their students. All the teachers/masters are really, really wrapped up in their own lives. Iruka is the only good one of the bunch.

 

Kakashi failed all of them, Jiraiya was only there for Naruto (and then only part of the time), and we have zero background on Sakura and Tsunade. There is no cause and effect, no full circle for abilities for anyone other than Sasuke. It's a real failing of the story.

 

The problem is that Naruto was written without any clear goal in mind, aside from Naruto getting the respect of his peers and probably becoming Hokage. As such, it was written pretty much on the fly with new elements being added by editorial mandate. The Chunin exams were implemented because the editors wanted to expand the cast, including a villain for the series, whereas Kishi originally wanted Team 7 to go on multiple adventure arcs and learning about the world around them. The Akatsuki and their goal of collecting all the Tailed Beasts were another thing added, as Gaara wasn't meant to be a jinchuuriki like Naruto rather than being in a similar position as Naruto.

 

Unfortunately, this resulted in Naruto becoming more and more of a mess as time went on and it barely tried to hide it. The problems began to add up as the series continued: new information contradicted old or was nonsensical in terms of the world (like how the Uzumaki's became a big thing in-universe), we got the continuous narrative of how rotten the ninja system is and needed to be reformed/demolished, and we have the things they just pulled out of nowhere. There was never  plan on how to grow these characters, and that involved improving their abilities, which led to the apathy we saw in the ending. They don't care that they've turned Naruto into a scumbag, Sasuke into a pawn for Konoha or Sakura into an addict because there never was any real destination for them so it was easy for the staff to shoehorn them into their current state.

Exactly. And don't we all know it now. 

 

 

i'd like to read a fanfiction about that. Doesn't even have to have NaruSaku, I'd be genuinely interested and how things would be different and unfold.

So in one of my ff's I tackled that — A Single Step, where Sasuke and Naruto both leave — and Kakashi has to become teacher for her. It's interesting, because even with his sole attention, he's still doesn't turn out to be a great teacher for Sakura. Although he's more sympathetic and attuned to her, it's Tsunade who makes the real impact.

 

I think it's because for Kakashi to become a better teacher for Sakura — to really recognize her and teach her to boost her strengths — he'd have to overcome his inward guilt for Rin's death. In the Gaiden, we see that Sakura is the parallel for Rin. But, like all things, it never comes full-circle for Kakashi. He never sees sakura coming into her own, and realizes that Sakura would have been like Rin of his childhood. Or realized that remembering Rin was the reason he held back with Sakura. He was afraid he'd fail mess up again. None of those introspections happen. So the Sakura/Rin parallel went nowhere. 

 

What could have been an interesting facet in why Kakashi was unable to connect with or truly teach Sakura when she was young turned into just another side distraction to the plot and an unresolved point for him.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Right - Kakashi was undeveloped as teacher. Sarutobi said from the beginning 'he has a nose for these troubled types' or something like that. What??? I think it's because for Kakashi to become a better teacher for Sakura — to really recognize her and teach her to boost her strengths — he'd have to overcome his inward guilt for Rin's death. In the Gaiden, we see that Sakura is the parallel for Rin. But, like all things, it never comes full-circle for Kakashi. He never sees sakura coming into her own, and realizes that Sakura would have been like Rin of his childhood. Or realized that remembering Rin was the reason he held back with Sakura. He was afraid he'd fail mess up again. None of those introspections happen. So the Sakura/Rin parallel went nowhere. 

 

What could have been an interesting facet in why Kakashi was unable to connect with or truly teach Sakura when she was young turned into just another side distraction to the plot and an unresolved point for him.

 

Not to mention with Kakashi that he kept seeing Naruto as Obito and Sasuke as himself, not seeing them as their own individuals, and often putting them into situations that they didn't need to do so, like when he put them into the Chunin Exams when they really weren't ready for it, and the fact he didn't even teach them all that much. It was his own fears, as you said, that led to all of that, and even when he tried, it turned out he failed again, like his inability to see Sasuke was not him and that he wasn't motivated by grief and anger like Kakashi was at that age, but jealousy, hate, and revenge.

[DrK]

The *sigh* Minato scene.
 



 
What happens in this scene? Yes, that's really all there is to this. Sakura is healing Naruto. Minato arrives and asks if she's Naruto's girlfriend. Naruto says yes after some hesitation. Sakura punishes him for this in a comical fashion. Minato notes the resemblance to Kushina, with associated flashback, and tells her to take care of his son. It's not clear if she agreed to this or even acknowledged the comment.

 

Minato, for future reference, is Naruto's DEAD father, who he will never see again after today.
 
What is the significance of this? Okay, let's start at the beginning. What is happening? Naruto is being healed by Sakura. Minato, for some reason, when seeing this scene, gets the idea that this kunoichi is an important person to Naruto, and not just some random medical ninja. There is no reason to think he knew she was his teammate at all. So... WHY does he get that idea? Who knows, but Kishimoto had him get that idea. Very strange decision given the ending.
 
Minato asks if Sakura is Naruto's girlfriend. Minato, for some reason, when seeing this scene, gets the idea that Sakura isn't merely an important person to Naruto, but actually his love interest. Actually, not a mere love interest. His actual girlfriend. Why does he get this idea? Who knows, but Kishimoto decided to do this as well. Very strange decision.
 
Naruto actually says YES. Why would he say yes if he doesn't have feelings for Sakura (anymore)? WHO KNOWS? There's nothing funny about it! He's sheepishly trying to tell his father that he actually really likes this girl who is a lot like his mother. This is not something to laugh at. Kishimoto decided to do this. Very strange. And later, when he's saying goodbye to his father, he does admit that he didn't fulfill the promise to his mother yet. Even though Sakura hasn't even betrayed him yet. How did he know that was going to happen? And yet he said this. It's not even consistent about being tragically pathetic.
 
Sakura headbutts him. This is mildly amusing. Tsundere. Whatever.

Minato notes the resemblance to Kushina. Why note the resemblance to Kushina, whether or not it exists, if she's not supposed to be with Naruto? Completely bizarre.
 
Minato says, "Take care of my son." What does this mean? It means be with my son and eventually take care of him as his wife. Don't tell me it could have meant take care of his injuries. Kushina wasn't a f***ing medic nin!
 
Kishimoto completely screws with the reader. This was happening the entire time. Strange decision, since the readers are the ones that give him his money.
 
So what does this mean for NaruSaku? It means that it is going to become canon. There is no other interpretation that would justify the inclusion of this. Minato didn't need to say those things. Minato didn't even need to be there. The scene didn't even need to happen. And yet it did. For, evidently no, reason.
 
Did Naruto love Sakura at this point? Apparently, since he said she was his girlfriend.
 
Did Sakura love Naruto at this point? Apparently, since she didn't even bother to deny it!

 

Minato's question was directed at Sakura. She chose to not answer and let Naruto's response stand without correcting Minato or even Naruto.
 
Seriously, let's consider the situation here. You're Sakura. Naruto is your best friend. You are going to let him continue to harbor a belief that you are willing to be with him, when you have no such desire and would instead rather wait years for Sasuke to come back, whereupon he will treat you about as well as trash that someone threw out of their car on the highway. Does this make any sense to anyone? Why would Sakura do this? Even if she is, in fact, a gigantic garbage fire, there's nothing to be gained by misleading Naruto in this way. He would be heartbroken. He would feel so betrayed and defeated. Sakura would never do this. If you need to ask why she would never do this, you haven't been paying enough attention to the other posts. Well, she actually would do this, because Sakura would never choose to be with Sasuke in the way that it happened. Or, realistically, at all. But that's a topic for a different day. Basically every other day except this one. This day is just about how stupid it is that these manga panels exist.
 
Rating: 5. There's no other rating to give it. It's just Kishimoto trying to f*** with everyone, or he just didn't even care to change what he storyboarded or planned to do. It's ridiculous, in every conceivable way. No part of this should have happened if he intended to do the ending that he did.
 
I don't even want to give this the satisfaction of my even bothering to write about it anymore.
 

 
So I won't.

Edited by DrK, 16 February 2018 - 04:05 AM.

[jak123]

The *sigh* Minato scene. By the way, I started writing a sequel to that story I posted earlier. Link to my profile is in my profile.
 



 
What happens in this scene? Yes, that's really all there is to this. Sakura is healing Naruto. Minato arrives and asks if she's Naruto's girlfriend. Naruto says yes after some hesitation. Sakura punishes him for this in a comical fashion. Minato notes the resemblance to Kushina, with associated flashback, and tells her to take care of his son. It's not clear if she agreed to this or even acknowledged the comment.

 

Minato, for future reference, is Naruto's DEAD father, who he will never see again after today.
 
What is the significance of this? Okay, let's start at the beginning. What is happening? Naruto is being healed by Sakura. Minato, for some reason, when seeing this scene, gets the idea that this kunoichi is an important person to Naruto, and not just some random medical ninja. There is no reason to think he knew she was his teammate at all. So... WHY does he get that idea? Who knows, but Kishimoto had him get that idea. Very strange decision given the ending.
 
Minato asks if Sakura is Naruto's girlfriend. Minato, for some reason, when seeing this scene, gets the idea that Sakura isn't merely an important person to Naruto, but actually his love interest. Actually, not a mere love interest. His actual girlfriend. Why does he get this idea? Who knows, but Kishimoto decided to do this as well. Very strange decision.
 
Naruto actually says YES. Why would he say yes if he doesn't have feelings for Sakura (anymore)? WHO KNOWS? There's nothing funny about it! He's sheepishly trying to tell his father that he actually really likes this girl who is a lot like his mother. This is not something to laugh at. Kishimoto decided to do this. Very strange. And later, when he's saying goodbye to his father, he does admit that he didn't fulfill the promise to his mother yet. Even though Sakura hasn't even betrayed him yet. How did he know that was going to happen? And yet he said this. It's not even consistent about being tragically pathetic.
 
Sakura headbutts him. This is mildly amusing. Tsundere. Whatever.

Minato notes the resemblance to Kushina. Why note the resemblance to Kushina, whether or not it exists, if she's not supposed to be with Naruto? Completely bizarre.
 
Minato says, "Take care of my son." What does this mean? It means be with my son and eventually take care of him as his wife. Don't tell me it could have meant take care of his injuries. Kushina wasn't a f***ing medic nin!
 
Kishimoto completely screws with the reader. This was happening the entire time. Strange decision, since the readers are the ones that give him his money.
 
So what does this mean for NaruSaku? It means that it is going to become canon. There is no other interpretation that would justify the inclusion of this. Minato didn't need to say those things. Minato didn't even need to be there. The scene didn't even need to happen. And yet it did. For, evidently no, reason.
 
Did Naruto love Sakura at this point? Apparently, since he said she was his girlfriend.
 
Did Sakura love Naruto at this point? Apparently, since she didn't even bother to deny it!

 

Minato's question was directed at Sakura. She chose to not answer and let Naruto's response stand without correcting Minato or even Naruto.
 
Seriously, let's consider the situation here. You're Sakura. Naruto is your best friend. You are going to let him continue to harbor a belief that you are willing to be with him, when you have no such desire and would instead rather wait years for Sasuke to come back, whereupon he will treat you about as well as trash that someone threw out of their car on the highway. Does this make any sense to anyone? Why would Sakura do this? Even if she is, in fact, a gigantic garbage fire, there's nothing to be gained by misleading Naruto in this way. He would be heartbroken. He would feel so betrayed and defeated. Sakura would never do this. If you need to ask why she would never do this, you haven't been paying enough attention to the other posts. Well, she actually would do this, because Sakura would never choose to be with Sasuke in the way that it happened. Or, realistically, at all. But that's a topic for a different day. Basically every other day except this one. This day is just about how stupid it is that these manga panels exist.
 
Rating: 5. There's no other rating to give it. It's just Kishimoto trying to f*** with everyone, or he just didn't even care to change what he storyboarded or planned to do. It's ridiculous, in every conceivable way. No part of this should have happened if he intended to do the ending that he did.
 
I don't even want to give this the satisfaction of my even bothering to write about it any more.
 

 
So I won't.

Ah yeah. The Sakura/Kushina comparison. One of the main arguments I use when someone tells me that I'm "just a butthurt shipper that didn't get his way". That instance irritated me so MUCH because of how pointless it was in the end. 

[DrK]

Ah yeah. The Sakura/Kushina comparison. One of the main arguments I use when someone tells me that I'm "just a butthurt shipper that didn't get his way". That instance irritated me so MUCH because of how pointless it was in the end. 

But it doesn't matter if Sakura is Kushina! Naruto is a Kushina! He doesn't need another Kushina, he needs a Minato!1!

 

Because that makes so much sense, and fixes all the problems. It's not like there are 6 other parallels that were rendered meaningless by him being declared to have not really loved Sakura, or anything.

[jak123]

But it doesn't matter if Sakura is Kushina! Naruto is a Kushina! He doesn't need another Kushina, he needs a Minato!1!

 

Because that makes so much sense, and fixes all the problems. It's not like there are 6 other parallels that were rendered meaningless by him being declared to have not really loved Sakura, or anything.

What absolutely terrible justification. Honestly considering how many Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke-esque groups there were in Naruto that you could draw comparisons to, him ending up with Sakura would have broken a cycle. Why have all those comparable groups otherwise?

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

What absolutely terrible justification. Honestly considering how many Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke-esque groups there were in Naruto that you could draw comparisons to, him ending up with Sakura would have broken a cycle. Why have all those comparable groups otherwise?

 

No kidding, Jak, it also shows how really, the story and narrative told got screwed hardest besides us fans for this ending.