723 replies to this topic

[redragon88]

 

To be fair, Sasuke did have somewhat of a point back then when he argued that his personal vendettas were unrelated to Naruto and that he would not become powerful enough to fight against Itachi if he remained Konoha. Let's be honest here, if he had chosen to maintain his allegiances with them his growth would be constrained as he would only have Kakashi who could properly instruct him. Sasuke would have essentially become a duplicate and he would never have the opportunity to acquire Orochimaru's snake based abilities and accelerated healing rate which were both critical for his survival in the fight against his brother. Naruto would probably have resumed his training with Jiraiya to prepare for Akatsuki's inevitable attack against him and so Sasuke would have fallen far behind eventually.

 

Aside from the decree given relating to missing ninja being executed the only possible grievance that Naruto and Konoha would have that would have any logical basis to itself (one that is not emotionally motivated like Team 7's unwillingness to lose one of its member) would be Sasuke potentially endangering the village by sacrificing his body and doujutsu to Orochimaru.

 

It seems you're overthinking. The point is that Sasuke's choices were going to eventually do him more harm than good so Naruto, as his friend, wanted to stop him and make him realize that his way of thinking was wrong.

 

Would you let a friend of yours join a gang because they feel that's the only way they can be stronger to achieve their goals, or would you try to talk them down and make them understand that no good will come from it? It's not that difficult a choice.

 

 

Yes it's kind of contradicting but he might see it in a way of returning everything the way it was before all these madness take place in a selfish way sure, not saying that what he might do is the right thing, I'm saying that what he might do will be wrong with the though that he is doing it for good creating a scenario where him and Naruto will have to clash because they have different ideal of achieving true peace. But I only consider this scenario IF he takes control over the Juubi  or become the Juubi Jinchuuriki for any reason.

I said this in the past, after Sasuke's talk with Itachi and now Hashirama Sasuke still wanting to be on the evil path will only mean a sure death, but him trying to obtain peace the wrong way with out killing innocent people the way Obito did would be a great way of keeping him gray while being a wrecking force for the main character goal.

 

Whatever Sasuke plans he's gonna have opposition, and if that opposition attacks him he's gonna fight back. Sasuke is not gonna go back to being the madman that wants to kill all of Konoha (at least I hope so), but it seems you forget that once he sets his mind on something he won't let anyone stand in his way.

 

I don't think he'll go out of his way to kill, incapacitate harshly at most, but if left with no choice I do think he's capable of doing it based on his "the end justifies the means" mentality.

[TouKen4Life3g]

So it's either Sasuke go psycho or go third party. I think the latter is something I can see easily, especially where he stands. I'll be shocked if he go to the first one. Highly unlikely, but sometimes, I wonder if that mental issue can come back when dealing with Naruto. It felt like it happened to Madara, so is there a chance that it can happen to Sasuke? I don't know but I can see him saying that to reach his goal, he must put Naruto out for good in that "face". That's the only way the psycho one can come back, and it seems like the user isn't aware of it. Come to think of it, didn't Itachi went through that? I don't remember. Maybe he's a good actor. Lol.

[CherryBlossom77]

Sasuke is up to something big time

[Atheck]

It seems you're overthinking. The point is that Sasuke's choices were going to eventually do him more harm than good so Naruto, as his friend, wanted to stop him and make him realize that his way of thinking was wrong.

 

Would you let a friend of yours join a gang because they feel that's the only way they can be stronger to achieve their goals, or would you try to talk them down and make them understand that no good will come from it? It's not that difficult a choice.

 

I am not overanalysing anything though. Sasuke was beginning a personal quest of his by placing the value of his childhood ambitions over the gaiety of his "new family". Excluding the most dire perils related to the village's most powerful doujutsu user offering themselves to an international terrorist, no one could have foreseen these other events happening like an unknown masked assailant with the ability to teleport absconding with Sasuke after his battle with Itachi and then depraving him to become the emotionally volatile criminal that he is right now.
 
The only "harm" that it would bring to anyone if Tobi had not entered the picture would have been Sasuke himself (relating back to what Kakashi counseled him about revenge only leading to emptiness and loss of purpose in one's life), the Konoha ninja who have been striving for years now to forcefully return him to the village, the Sound/Akatsuki nin who died fighting against/for him (but who honestly cares about the Sound 5 or Deidara), and possibly Hebi as they would likely be disbanded since the village would probably not allow them to stay. It was Sasuke's decision though and he openly admitted that it would not provide him with any happiness yet he chose to walk down that path regardless.
 

This relates back to what I stated about the probable outcome of Sasuke remaining in Konoha. Realistically, he never would have acquired the necessary skills to defeat Itachi under Kakashi's tutelage alone sans him acquiring MS somehow. He would have become Kakashi 2.0 but with a more diverse repertoire of mediocre Raiton abilities (not that Kirin wasn't already more powerful than anything Kakashi could teach), somewhat superior hand to hand taijutsu skills, and possibly a few genjutsu abilities. Not only that, the Curse Seal which had become an integral part of his fighting style during the beginning of P2 would have been completely suppressed despite Sasuke clearly showing that if one is able to master the transformed states then there are no repercussions to its usage.
 

Let's face it, despite the questionable morality behind Sasuke's decision to defect it ultimately resulted in him becoming much more powerful than he would have likely become. Who do you honestly think is the better teacher? Kakashi or Orochimaru?

 

Sasuke was never personally dedicated to Orochimaru's group or his ideals like Kabuto was. He suckled at what knowledge he could gain and then after having learned everything he could possibly acquire he retaliated against Orochimaru (he was repulsed by Orochimaru's inhumane practices).

 

Actually, if anything his time with Oro seemed to have calmed him. When he first arrived at Orochimaru's lair he was condescending and resentful with an apparent lack of value in human life. But when he become independent he was relatively calm and collected. Sasuke assumed a sort of neutral, unaligned position during this time. Yes, he did attempt to kill Team Kakashi which is the only critical moral fault that I can see here but when he was confronted by other people he made it an effort to prevent himself from killing them. He even went out of his way to release all of Orochimaru's prisoners with Suigetsu making a peculiar statement about Sasuke "bringing peace and safety to the world". I always wondered what that was about. It's too bad Kishi never went into more depth about what Suigetsu meant with that comment.

[redragon88]

@Atheck

 

You're writing walls of text to justify Sasuke leaving the village as a good moral choice when it's obvious it wasn't. You are overthinking.

 

Story wise it is a good choice, but morally it was wrong. That's the point you seem to be missing. You keep bringing up the fact that he needed to leave in order to kill Itachi, but you're ignoring that Sasuke seeking to kill him by any means necessary is what was viewed as wrong in the first place.

 

Sasuke was so desperate for power to the point he didn't care if Orochimaru potentially took over his body if it meant that Itachi could die. Naruto wasn't gonna let Sasuke sacrifice his life so easily just for the sake of vengeance.

 

If someone you cared about told you that to achieve what they wanted they don't care if they died in the process, would you simply nod and agree? I hope not. And Naruto sure didn't want to either.

[CherryBlossom77]

I think Sasuke wants to become a jinchuriki

[Atheck]

@Atheck
 
You're writing walls of text to justify Sasuke leaving the village as a good moral choice when it's obvious it wasn't. You are overthinking.

 
Since when was I justifying his actions? Where in my post did I ever make the assertion that his decision was morally just? The only thing that I stated relating to the ethics of his defection was that it was ultimately his choice to abandon everything that he once held dear for a dismal ambition to kill his brother for the sake of avenging his clan. If you believe that a simple comparison of teaching methods between Orochimaru and Kakashi is "overthinking" this situation then I really have no words to say relating to that.
 

Story wise it is a good choice, but morally it was wrong. That's the point you seem to be missing.

 
Morality is a subjective concept that is based around one's upbringings and how they view the world. Not that I believe Sasuke's defection was morally righteous but I do acknowledge his actions which at first were not so malevolent in nature aside from the attempted murders of Team 7. Despite my repugnance for his character  he wasn't too bad at first when his focus was centred exclusively on killing Itachi; when he was preventing others from being killed and helped to eliminate two Akatsuki members.
 
If taking into consideration the good Sasuke has done when he was Orosuke is a biased or misguided perspective of the ethics behind his decisions at that then whatever. I'm not concerned with that.
 

You keep bringing up the fact that he needed to leave in order to kill Itachi, but you're ignoring that Sasuke seeking to kill him by any means necessary is what was viewed as wrong in the first place.

 
I never stated that he had to leave, only that he would be considerably weaker without Orochimaru's tutelage.
 
Furthermore, it is fairly obvious that Sasuke has little concern with moral perimeters. He is someone who is willing to assume any approach necessary to acquire power so that he may carry out his personal objectives. Take that from whatever moral angle you would like. But just to clarify something, I personally do not agree with his approach at acquiring this strength but Sasuke is intended to represent the "fallen hero" archetype so it's only natural that his strength would be derived from darkness.
 

Sasuke was so desperate for power to the point he didn't care if Orochimaru potentially took over his body if it meant that Itachi could die.

 
And that was the fatal flaw in his logic. Orochimaru was so much more powerful than Sasuke at the time that defeating and acquiring his body would have been a trifle. If he was not in control of his own decisions, if he was but another consciousness engulfed and forced to remain in Orochimaru's artificial realm as a remnant of his body's former personality then the entire purpose behind seeking out Orochimaru would have been defeated.
 
Sasuke would be forced to rely on Orochimaru's personal desires to kill Itachi for hindering his research if he wanted his revenge to become complete but that would inadvertently jeopardize Konoha's safety which is the single most logical concern that Konoha's leaders should have concerning the defection.
 

Naruto wasn't gonna let Sasuke sacrifice his life so easily just for the sake of vengeance.

 

If someone you cared about told you that to achieve what they wanted they don't care if they died in the process, would you simply nod and agree? I hope not. And Naruto sure didn't want to either.

 
This is perhaps the one sentiment that I agree with Sasuke on. Why should Naruto interfere with Sasuke's personal ambitions? What possible relevance could it have to his life outside of his beloved Team 7 dynamic being changed? No one should be obligated to remain as someone's friend if they do not wish to be. If Sasuke simply chose to retire from his military career in P1 and become a civilian whilst severing all of his ties with Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi would you believe that Naruto should forcefully recreate that connection and have him be brought back into the group? But then in that scenario who is actually "in the wrong"?

 

Of course military insurrection is a much more severe circumstance so Naruto would be correct in a particular context to prevent Sasuke from joining Orochimaru. However, preventing someone from making their own decisions in life, even if you may disagree with them, is an action that I am personally opposed to. Talk with them, attempt to make them understand the folly of their actions, but don't try to forcefully designate them to live in the manner in which you want them to.
 
If you only look at the intentions and objectives without any of the specifics as to how Sasuke reaches his ultimate goal his the desire to avenge his clan really so inherently flawed? Itachi, from his initial mindset, was a murderous betrayer who had delusively ushered Sasuke into believing that he was a compassionate older brother yet in reality he had no conscience for the deaths of his family; attributing his murderous proclivities to wanting to "measure his capacity".
 
From Sasuke's perspective, there were no redeeming qualities to Itachi. If you look at just the fundamental reasoning and intentions, how is this desire for vengeance any more ethically unjust than Zabuza murdering Gato to avenge Haku or Team 10 decamping from Konoha in order to track down Hidan and kill him? Did anyone ever protest against these people fighting to satisfy their desire for vengeance? I always did wonder why Kakashi was so opposed to Sasuke seeking out Itachi to kill him yet he was complacent with Team 10 committing what basically amounted to dereliction of duty in order to do the exact same thing. Is it because Sasuke's approach was much more extreme? If he remained in Konoha and was acquiring power through a more upright approach then would there be any objections to him wanting to eventually kill Itachi? It isn't as if there is anyone close to Itachi who would react negatively to his death. Kisame was arguably one of his closest companions after defecting and he never sought vengeance against Sasuke. In fact he appeared to be perfectly content with Sasuke forming a temporary alliance with Akatsuki. To almost all of Konoha Itachi was a dangerous missing nin who was acting to further Akatsuki's sinister aims. His death would hold nothing but positive reactions in their eyes and they already were intending to kill him. Regardless of who kills him or for what purpose the end result would be the same.

 

So the notion that vengeance begets hatred is null and void here.
 

Edited by Atheck, 15 June 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[NS4Life]

I think Sasuke wants to become a jinchuriki

 

I agree and I think the scroll tells him how to become one. I think Naruto is stronger than Sasuke with KM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know, I thought the scroll was already revealed. Or am I missing something?

[NS4Life]

You know, I thought the scroll was already revealed. Or am I missing something?

 

That was the to summon the Shinigami?

 

I forgot.

 

I do believe Sasuke will seek a stronger power than Naruto's.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
That was the to summon the Shinigami?
 
I forgot.
 
I do believe Sasuke will seek a stronger power than Naruto's.

Hm, if that's the case, then isn't it answered or there's more to it? How would that change the tide of war?

[NS4Life]

Hm, if that's the case, then isn't it answered or there's more to it? How would that change the tide of war?

 

Are you talking about the scroll or Ten Tails?

 

IMO, Sasuke would want the Ten Tails. Can anyone beat Sasuke with the Ten Tails in it's final form?

 

I hope on the next chapter we see Sakura resolve whatever feeling she has for Sasuke while see is looking at his back.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
Are you talking about the scroll or Ten Tails?
 
IMO, Sasuke would want the Ten Tails. Can anyone beat Sasuke with the Ten Tails in it's final form?
 
I hope on the next chapter we see Sakura resolve whatever feeling she has for Sasuke while see is looking at his back.

I was talking about the scroll. Well, if he becomes its Jinchuuriki, no doubt no one can question him, which Naruto must step in. There are many potentials in this moment and we are just waiting for something to happen.

[T XD]

Sasuke seems to have an idea of his own regarding the Juubi. So, I think too that he wants the Ten Tails or like having a part of his power.

 

Sasuke having an immense power in front of him... I don't think he'll let it pass.

Edited by T XD, 15 June 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

I agree and I think the scroll tells him how to become one. I think Naruto is stronger than Sasuke with KM.

He give the scroll to Orochimaru which later with that, he goes to the Uzumaki stuff, grab the uzumaki mask and release the hokages.

[NS4Life]

He give the scroll to Orochimaru which later with that, he goes to the Uzumaki stuff, grab the uzumaki mask and release the hokages.

Thanks.

Edited by NS4Life, 15 June 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[redragon88]

@Atheck

 

You're asking me at first why I accuse you of justifying Sasuke's actions, and later in your same post you go and say you agree with Sasuke's actions while giving your reason. I don't need to elaborate further then that.

 

You're trying hard to give elaborate responses to prove yourself right, but it seems you still don't get it. Sasuke's revenge would bring him temporary satisfaction, but in exchange he put himself on a dangerous path by leaving Konoha. And Naruto wasn't gonna let a friend of his risk his life for so little gain.

 

Sasuke's revenge was not worth it. You can give essays about how from a different point of view Sasuke is right but that's not the perspective Kishi worked with. Sasuke's revenge was potentially gonna do him more harm then good and Team 7 wanted to prevent that.

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know, what is Sasuke's plan? I'm confused on how he's going to do it. Just how much he knows about the moon eye plan, because he seems like he knows a lot.

[Dkey]

You know, what is Sasuke's plan? I'm confused on how he's going to do it. Just how much he knows about the moon eye plan, because he seems like he knows a lot.

 

With Sasuke you never know. All we can assume is that this truce won't last long. But I'm wondering if Kakashi and Obito will come back now, and sasuke gets sidetracked. I know small chance for Sasuke to be sidetracked.

 

Anyway until further notice Sasuke's plan is to be Hokage.

[Chatte]

You're mean to say that the scroll conteined the knowledge of the Uzumaki and their link to the Shinigami.

 

That wasn't how I interpreted it.

 

When Suigetsu first found the scroll he was shocked that Orochimaru would've considered it (whatever this something is). He only refers to it as 'data', information.

Here

 

When Sasuke reads the scroll, he immediately thought of Hashirama, the one who 'knew everything' for his answers.

Here

He then decided to revive Orochimaru so the latter could revive the Hokage. But It was the contents of the scroll that made him want to question the Hokage, the scroll itself wasn't used for the resurrection.

 

Suigetsu said that with the scroll, sasuke and the others could 'rule the ninja world'. The scroll must be refering to something different then just resurrecting the previous Hokage, something more. It is that 'something' that I believe Sasuke is going to use as his trump card, when the battle is over and the attention goes back on him and his goal to become Hokage.

Really nice.

But this only gets me to the TenTails. As we've seen Hashirama has the power to seal it...so maybe it has something to do with that? Dunno I am very confused...