1001 replies to this topic

[MoonStar]

I just want to know what Kishimoto's intentions are for the romance. Just when you think they are finally settled, it turns out they're right where they've been since Part 1. Why have Ino show feelings for Sasuke? Why have Karin sill be infatuated with him? The manga is heading towards the end and there's no final girl for Sasuke in sight. Surely he's not gonna end it SasuSakuInoKarin is he? And don't even get me started on the disgustingly contrived NaruHina moment.

[Chucky-kun]

Aaaaaaand I'm done. I am so sick of how females are portrayed in this manga. Kishi seriously needs to take some freaking notes from Fairy Tail. Powerful women working side by side with men??? AND THEY ARE MAIN CHARACTERS?! IMPOSSIBLEEEEE. Ugh. UGH. UGGGH. Damn it, there was so much room for growth.

RANT OVER. See you when Sakura's back in the picture.

Room for growth? We have potentially less than 100 chapters in this manga, not much is gonna be used for side character development anymore.

[Codus N]

Aaaaaaand I'm done. I am so sick of how females are portrayed in this manga. Kishi seriously needs to take some freaking notes from Fairy Tail. Powerful women working side by side with men??? AND THEY ARE MAIN CHARACTERS?! IMPOSSIBLEEEEE. Ugh. UGH. UGGGH. Damn it, there was so much room for growth.

RANT OVER. See you when Sakura's back in the picture.

You and me both.

P.S.: Isn't it ironic that the main pairing in FT is also yellow x pink?? (only genderflipped.) And that pairing has much better development than this one?? it's like Mashima's saying: "hey, Kishi you suck balls in romance!! THIS IS HOW IT"S DONE!!" really, I can't help but think it's mocking NS.

[Chucky-kun]

You and me both.

P.S.: Isn't it ironic that the main pairing in FT is also yellow x pink?? (only genderflipped.) And that pairing has much better development than this one?? it's like Mashima's saying: "hey, Kishi you suck balls in romance!! THIS IS HOW IT"S DONE!!" really, I can't help but think it's mocking NS.

Though the story of ft is quite a ways simpler than naruto, no love triangles/ heptagons, just straight up pairing hints. No psychopathic antaprotaganist, no major timie skip, by this I mean the character relationships didn't change over the course of the time skip.

[YukiNozomi212]

Karin you hit the wrong guy ... should have been Sasuke and not Suigetsu!!!!

THIIISSS!!

though i'm a hard SuiKarin shipper forever.

[tricksie]

I'm not surprised by this, generally speaking. I expected her to forgive him. I thought it possible that she and the rest would wander with Sasuke or join Konoha at the end. I thought it would suck when either happened, but it's not unexpected. If I thought Kishimoto were trying to show something like you described or that were the intended characterization, I suppose I'd feel better. However, I don't think he's making a special effort to depict an emotionally unstable person who has an unhealthy attachment to a guy who treated her like trash. I think was totally meant to be played straight.

What happen wasn't unexpected, just crap.

I tend to agree. Karin's story does not draw sympathy or understanding from me, and it could have been written that way. But it wasn't. While it is factually true that Karin is unstable, probably abused (certainly emotionally so), her own character is not one who cares about those potholes in her life. Remember, she was the one who ran a torture lab. She has never once behaved like that was something she should overcome.

Her initial interaction with a young Sasuke has been shown as genuine, as was her resolution to get over him. But that's it. And nothing else about her says that she's constant or not self-serving. To be crass, Sasuke gets her off. And when she is around him again, getting a whiff of his chakra and that there might be another shot with him, she's turned right back on to him again. It's not even about him being good or bad. Just that she has a need to be met.

That's why her character, for me, doesn't draw any sympathy or understanding.

This is also the contradictory nature of Kishimoto's storytelling: He creates complex characters, but doesn't trade on that complexity. Karin could be an interesting, deep character. She's totally got the background for it. We could feel sympathy for her. We could root for her. She could morph and change into something new, rising out of the mire of her past. But...Kishi takes a pass. And Karin becomes another tissue-paper thin character that's only written for levity and plot-devices.

Team Not Seven, to me, is handled like he has no freaking idea what to do with them and these scenes isn't arent' different. I tend to believe the stories that they were forced on him because other than the stabbing incident I cannot tell why they were formed or even continue to exist. He often has to just make up crap for them to do in a bid to stay relevant and when he does it often works out poorly.

Same with Team 7: laughs and plot devices. There is no good reason for them to stay with Sasuke now. None. And yet they all do.

Oh yeah, I also dislike the retconning of Karin into the Uzumaki clan. She's a masochist who only left her job with Orochimaru because it gave her more pleasure to be with Sasuke. She's not like Anko (who was a willing student to Oro, but then left that life behind). Karin is self-serving. If Sasuke said "I'm the new Orochimaru, let's set up some labs," Karin would be right back out there in a hearbeat, dragging villagers in to torture them. Not because she's inherently good or bad, but because she likes Sasuke.

But with the Uzumaki link, I can already tell her jagged edges are being smoothed to make her more acceptable. She's being connected to both Sasuke and Naruto. And I'm sure this is so she can be the plot device that explains what exactly is going on with their chakras. But I hate that as readers we're supposed to accept her, or even like her, without having the courtesy of some character development. Because she hasn't changed from the torture-loving lab manager. She just happens to like Sasuke more than her old life. And that does not make her a more trustworthy character or bring greater value to her purpose in the story.

Again, the depth and backstory for Karin is there, but Kishi does not choose to explore it. She's instead turned into comic relief.

[YukiNozomi212]

Meanwhile, NaruSaku in the muck up irrational world of Masashi Kishimoto...

[YukiNozomi212]

wow...that was just....wow.

Sasuke: Nah forget it, i'll become the good guy,
Orichimaru: I have seen the light, so what if I experimented on hundreds of innocent children, and killed thousands of innocent human beings? Sasuke has changed me...Praise the lord, I am reborn a new man,
Karin: So you almost killed, me it's all good as long as you are still a cute emo.

If there is no other twist to this, I honestly think Kishi has given up on this, the whole point of this manga since the time skip has been about Naruto and Sasuke, on different sides one seeking to save his friend whilst the other to destroy everything he held dear. Now Sasuke's been saved and Naruto had nothing to do with it, the biggest freaking point of this manga that's been shoved down our throats for a decade has been resolved and the person who has been shouting the loudest about saving him had nothing to do with it.

couldn't have put it better myself....

[soraandven]

are you certain that sasuke is fully good now cuz im not convinced yet also im surprised that some ns fans think nalu is more developed then ns

[TouKen4Life3g]

are you certain that sasuke is fully good now cuz im not convinced yet also im surprised that some ns fans think nalu is more developed then ns

I am not certain about that either, but we all have to wait and see. As of now, I see it as "Enemy of my enemy is my friend."

As for NaLu, granted that I do like it, it's more of the easy route, so I don't ship it hard as this one, because again, you see it coming. For NaruSaku, whether you saw it coming or not, I think it's the backstory that makes me like it a lot as well as how gentleman Naruto can be, which I actually was inspired to do so. Not to mention how fun they are and the chemistry is really good. I guess people rather have a simple one route direction from a heroine/love interest than something like this. While that's good, for me, I like to feel challenged. I just hope he doesn't go too awkward and confusing to follow. So yeah, best to say, to each of their own.

[narusakurama]

are you certain that sasuke is fully good now cuz im not convinced yet also im surprised that some ns fans think nalu is more developed then ns

All we have so far are his words spoken in front of the Hokage. He has yet to act upon those words . Something tells me they will not go to the battle together , the Hokage will separate from Taka and go there first and that is when we'll get to see everyone's true intentions . Even if he does end up going to the battle , it might be for reasons other than protecting the village .

I am also wondering to what extent has Orochimaru lost control of Hashirama . Is it the same as in Madara's case , where even when the jutsu was cancelled , he did not go back ? Or it is that he can not control him , but if he cancels the Jutsu , all the Hokage will disappear ? If it is the latter , I could see orochimaru trying to take advantage of that .

[kirabook]

Although I don't particularly care that much about pairings in FT (though of course, if I had to hardcore ship something ,it's the obvious NL), it's clear to me that NL is the more stable and in their universe, more developed.

Of course the mangaka teases a lot with girls being near nude/in their underwear/fanservice, but for the most part the line is always clear. He doesn't abuse his readers interest and he made it clear from the beginning what the main pairing is. Even in interviews I think, he doesn't do this silly "Vague is cool and mysterious" mess that only confuse his readers more.

I feel in story telling, you should make your story as clear and precise as possible. A few plot twists are fine, but now a days I realize that's all Kishi feels like he has to keep reader interest. I can't recall ANY huge plot twists in part 1 other than Sasuke going bad. Naruto used to be consisten of steady build up to a revalation that made sense (like Minato obviously being Naruto's father and even Sasuke going bad was build up -although I personally think Sasuke's decision was stupid, I can't truly complain because Kishi built it like he should've-)

Now in part 2, the plot twists are everywhere (especially lately). It's bringing down the quality of the fic and it's obvious. FT is much like Naruto used to be. Not with it's story arcs (I feel like they're more like OP), but in character development, although sometimes the power levels are really skewed.

[KnS]

I missed the first line where you said "caring about Karin." I don't. Team Not Seven is and is intended as a pejorative for all three of them, but you directed that at me first, so I will answer.

Oh, my Karin comment wasn't directed at you, specifically. I had wanted to comment on the other part of your post -- about Sasuke and Orochimaru -- and then used your comments about Karin as a spring board for my own, that's all.

I'm not surprised by this, generally speaking. I expected her to forgive him. I thought it possible that she and the rest would wander with Sasuke or join Konoha at the end. I thought it would suck when either happened, but it's not unexpected. If I thought Kishimoto were trying to show something like you described or that were the intended characterization, I suppose I'd feel better. However, I don't think he's making a special effort to depict an emotionally unstable person who has an unhealthy attachment to a guy who treated her like trash. I think was totally meant to be played straight.

Well, I'm loathe to guess at Kishimoto's specific intentions. But just in terms of my own perceptions while reading, all I can say is I've felt it's been obvious that Karin was set up as an unstable girl with unhealthy attachments. Having her continue to behave that way should not, IMO, have surprised or outraged so many people. The "Karin's character is ruined now" responses surprise me, since I have always considered her "ruined" from the beginning.

As you say, it's not unexpected. Karin's "I'm done with Sasuke" stuff didn't fool me any more than Orochimaru's passive attitude fools me now. Whether or not Kishimoto has done enough with the set up he gave Karin, or done right by her as a potentially complex character, is a separate point than the one I was trying to make.

I tend to agree. Karin's story does not draw sympathy or understanding from me, and it could have been written that way. But it wasn't. While it is factually true that Karin is unstable, probably abused (certainly emotionally so), her own character is not one who cares about those potholes in her life. Remember, she was the one who ran a torture lab. She has never once behaved like that was something she should overcome.

I agree with this completely, and it's essentially the point I was originally trying to make when I said Karin was a "defective mess." As you say, she has never once behaved as if her choices or tendencies were something she should overcome. That's what being a "defective mess" is all about, and exactly why I don't understand how readers can be so shocked/indignant about her return to Sasuke despite what she might have said about being done with him. Defective personalities tend to make defective choices, so no surprise there.

Her initial interaction with a young Sasuke has been shown as genuine, as was her resolution to get over him. But that's it. And nothing else about her says that she's constant or not self-serving. To be crass, Sasuke gets her off. And when she is around him again, getting a whiff of his chakra and that there might be another shot with him, she's turned right back on to him again. It's not even about him being good or bad. Just that she has a need to be met.

This is a really good point. She is, more than anything, self-serving -- you know, like Sasuke. And I agree that her attraction to Sasuke is her main motivator. Like I said, she reminds me of a crack addict. She might have moments of clarity where she sees her "need" for the self-destructive force it is, but the urge to take another hit outweighs good sense. More defective mess behavior.

That's why her character, for me, doesn't draw any sympathy or understanding.

I don't feel sympathy or understanding for her, either. Like I said, if she were a real person that would be one thing, but as a secondary fictional character who is not especially well developed, what has been developed and used in her characterization doesn't do much for me.

Oh yeah, I also dislike the retconning of Karin into the Uzumaki clan. She's a masochist who only left her job with Orochimaru because it gave her more pleasure to be with Sasuke. She's not like Anko (who was a willing student to Oro, but then left that life behind). Karin is self-serving. If Sasuke said "I'm the new Orochimaru, let's set up some labs," Karin would be right back out there in a hearbeat, dragging villagers in to torture them. Not because she's inherently good or bad, but because she likes Sasuke.

Yes. I dislike her placement in the Uzumaki clan as well. I do my best to forget about it, actually. And you're probably right that her bloodline is going to be used in some contrived way during whatever showdown may or may not occur between Sasuke and Naruto.

Everything else you wrote there -- about Karin's attitude -- is exactly what I was talking about earlier. It's also the thing about her that makes me believe that if she ever reaches a point where something or someone serves her better than a hit of Crack!Sasuke, she's capable of betraying him.

[T XD]

Naruto will still have a role to change something in Sasuke. He won't just fight him, and say bye bye.

Sasuke said he won't let the village and his brother be wasted. Nothing more. Sasuke could declare something in the battlefield that he didn't say in this chapter, or there could be something about different ideals with Naruto and Sasuke that they will fight against each other for them... Anything could be up for Sasuke to bring the settled match between him and Naruto.

How is NaLu more developed than NS ? I believe NL will be but NL doesn't have half of the development of NS !

[rocci]

Naruto will still have a role to change something in Sasuke. He won't just fight him, and say bye bye.

Sasuke said he won't let the village and his brother be wasted. Nothing more. Sasuke could declare something in the battlefield that he didn't say in this chapter, or there could be something about different ideals with Naruto and Sasuke that they will fight against each other for them... Anything could be up for Sasuke to bring the settled match between him and Naruto.

How is NaLu more developed than NS ? I believe NL will be but NL doesn't have half of the development of NS !

Unlike naruto natsu don't romantically love anyone only friendship just like Luffy, unlike naruto who has love interest since chapter 3. And even if natsu love Lucy he don't get a situation where Lucy love gray(only juvia think like that) and natsu don't has a cute shy girl who worship by many fans(no offense Hinata fan) who love him and though as a true heroine rather than the real heroine.
Oh and have I said that your rival is the main focus of your manga and not yourself?

So I can say NS situation is more complex than nalu.

Oh and sasukarin is pairing made from heaven(or hell?) because Karin is M and sasuke is abuser.

[T XD]

Unlike naruto natsu don't romantically love anyone only friendship just like Luffy, unlike naruto who has love interest since chapter 3. And even if natsu love Lucy he don't get a situation where Lucy love gray(only juvia think like that) and natsu don't has a cute shy girl who worship by many fans(no offense Hinata fan) who love him and though as a true heroine rather than the real heroine.
Oh and have I said that your rival is the main focus of your manga and not yourself?

So I can say NS situation is more complex than nalu.

Oh and sasukarin is pairing made from heaven(or hell?) because Karin is M and sasuke is abuser.

That's my point. The situations for NL aren't like NS. There's many things, aside from the characters status, that aren't matched with each other. Their development won't be the same and won't get as much focus.

[alexander]

Unlike naruto natsu don't romantically love anyone only friendship just like Luffy, unlike naruto who has love interest since chapter 3. And even if natsu love Lucy he don't get a situation where Lucy love gray(only juvia think like that) and natsu don't has a cute shy girl who worship by many fans(no offense Hinata fan) who love him and though as a true heroine rather than the real heroine.
Oh and have I said that your rival is the main focus of your manga and not yourself?

So I can say NS situation is more complex than nalu.

Oh and sasukarin is pairing made from heaven(or hell?) because Karin is M and sasuke is abuser.

Ahem



I know it's not exactly the same, but still.... it isn't too far off neither.

[Nate River]

Same with Team 7: laughs and plot devices. There is no good reason for them to stay with Sasuke now. None. And yet they all do.

It's his animal magnestism. I wish I could follow him too. I need to write a self-insert now.

Everyone time someone laughs at anything Suigetsu does I die a little inside. It's perpetuating their meaningless existence.

Their reasons for recruitment were to prevent people from interfering with the fight against Itachi. They weren't needed to do so. Karin likes him because a retcon saved her life even if that same person also tried to end it (Hey aren't they even now!). He helps Juugo main control or something. Somehow. I don't know. Suigetsu....? It's all so paper thin.

[rocci]

Ahem



I know it's not exactly the same, but still.... it isn't too far off neither.

Oh it's really far mirajane sister is not shy, or easy to faint and not give romantic vibe to natsu, just a friend.

[Destiny]

Room for growth? We have potentially less than 100 chapters in this manga, not much is gonna be used for side character development anymore.

Yea. Room for growth. She had already appeared to be over him when we last saw her and she was ready to move on with her life and have different ambitions. She could have done something... ANYTHING really. And in your < 100 chapters left deal... it only took being over him under a page. So yes. development can even happen in one panel.