69 replies to this topic

[KnS]

 

Good post. And the bolded right there, I have such a peeve concerning readers like that, thinking that they know the story and characters better than the person who conceived it.  I don't understand the logic in believing that a pairing must be 'unexpected' to be good, or that pairings that follow a certain trope are automatically bad because they are 'overused'. It's the execution that matters.

 

I couldn't agree more.  In my opinion, if a pairing is unexpected -- like a sudden plot twist -- then it flies in the face of good writing.  The final relationship in a story can change because of a plot twist, but like you said it's all in the execution.

[James S Cassidy]

@hanabi
I believe what NS4life mean is love hina.

@james
I agree, in this manga the love triangle that acknowledge by author is the narusakusasu. And it's a rare thing to has a two boys one girl love triangle setting in shonen manga. So far in shonen, i only find two series that have this kind of setting, and that is slamdunk and school rumble.

 

It's even rarer when it is not that the main character who has such conflict, but rather the secondary main character who he is in love with with the conflict. That's interesting of itself. Why doesn't Naruto, the one who is the main character of this story, has no love conflict over two girls and inner battles over who he loves more? If this occurred in the story really, then yes I would say NH was a contender, but it never does happen at all.

 

We do have conflict with Naruto about something in the love department, but it is more on what does he want more; Does he want Sakura to love him and he be happy or does he want her to be happy even if it means that he can't have her? Never once does he ever say anything alone the lines of "Do I want Sakura or should I go with Hinata?"

 

Hell, Keitaro in Love Hina has this issue at one point between Naru and Mutsumi all because he thought Mutsumi was the girl he made the promise to.
 

[Nefertieh]

This topic is sort of like narusaku vs minakushi.

 

I think a pairing that's too obvious is sometimes... not that interesting. That's why romance stories are almost never about just romance. There is always some sort of conflict -- either you have love triangles, forbidden love, amnesia, et cetera. Otherwise, it gets boring quite quickly. Happily ever afters are an ending, it doesn't keep the readers engaged for long.

 

Pairing wars are really just a result of a large, divided fanbase and an author who knows he's not going to domesticate his main character until the end of the series.

[James S Cassidy]

This topic is sort of like narusaku vs minakushi.

 

I think a pairing that's too obvious is sometimes... not that interesting. That's why romance stories are almost never about just romance. There is always some sort of conflict -- either you have love triangles, forbidden love, amnesia, et cetera. Otherwise, it gets boring quite quickly. Happily ever afters are an ending, it doesn't keep the readers engaged for long.

 

Pairing wars are really just a result of a large, divided fanbase and an author who knows he's not going to domesticate his main character until the end of the series.

 

Final Fantasy VIII would like a word with you.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 October 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[rocci]

@james
I think because It's a game and already finish to the like of serialize media.

[James S Cassidy]

@james
I think because It's a game and already finish to the like of serialize media.

 

So the time the series is in effect has something to do with it? I guess, but then you are venturing into an unknown on whether or not a pairing is actually obvious. Some might claim that it is isn't obvious until after the fact the series has ended, but I am more of poking at the idea that the romance plays an important part to the series in it's entirely and that the ending has been foretold even before it has begun.

 

Some couples are very ambiguous and you don't know if they will even get together....and other couples...well, you kind of want to just scream at the the two people "Hurry up and make out already." So is NaruSaku an obvious pairing? That's a real tricky question to answer. Sure, we have all this evidence now, but could we say that back then when the series first started?

 

Let me put it this way, here is the logo of FFVIII

 

Here is it without the letters

 

 

The logo itself contains the love birds in an embrace and basically tells you how it ends even before the game even boots up. So basically, we know how this love relationship is going to end and the only question is how we reach that point in the story. Basically, even knowing the ending, the journey is what is most interesting.

 

Now imagine if the Naruto manga logo was of Sakura and Naruto embracing. Would you feel that the couple was obvious or not? Would the serial time matter or does it become a frustrating "Get it over with" kind of feel?

 

Again, bringing up the Aang and Katara pairing, you face another variable where the creators knew all along, but only dropped several hints in the series or even tried to throw red herrings to get you off the obvious trail. When it comes to others, was it it really unknown which couple was an obvious choice of an ending or rather a sequences that happened due to a last minute idea.

 

In another aspect, you could say all official couplings are pre-planned, but not all of them are obvious as the writer or creator chooses to make it ambiguous enough for people to keep guessing. We also have the variable that we the fans blind ourselves to the obvious even when it is right in front of our faces, but again you don't really know this until after the series has ended.

 

Has there ever been a series, whether Japanese or American, where the coupling changes or the original idea was changed to something else mid production? Hard to say until you get an official word from the creator themselves, but I think most of the time....no. It's hard to change the original idea in mid game and also make it believable unless you made it so ambiguous in the beginning to allow such a change and not break the canon. 

 

We do have some exception though like Dragonball Z where Vegeta and Bulma got together because Toriyama said he can't write romance for crap and also just to put an end to things he got tired of people asking about. So the author can spontaneous have pairings happen with little to no development.

 

You can look at this for the rarer examples of what Tv Tropes calls "Designated love interest"

http://tvtropes.org/...tedLoveInterest

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 October 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know, Gundam, ironically, always throw you in the face of a pairing of the protagonist yet never really finalized it. I guess that's why most case it's best to care for secondary pairings.

[Deej]

I don't mind obvious pairings in canon. But fandom clearly loves the chase and tease. Once a couple gets together, a lot of their appeal is lost. When a fan loses interest after their pairing hooks up, it is called shipper death bed.

Just a minor example in Naruto. Asuma x Kurenai fanfics are actually pretty rare despite them being one of the few canon couples in Naruto. You are much more likely to find her paired with Itachi and Kakashi. Even Naruto, Shikamaru, Anko, Hinata, and Kiba.

Edited by Deej, 28 October 2013 - 11:14 PM.

[Inferno180]

All i'm prepped for is the potential of another meltdown this week or later.

 

I'm only saying this cause, given how Naruto will talk no jutsu Obito this week, if there's a mention of Naruto loving Sakura he himself confirms, then its going to be 631 all over again.

 

When 630 ended, it made all fans excited, for us NS fans we said Sakura may meet Minato, Minato may be reminded of Kushina in some way. Many other non-NS pairing fans said, "nah, no way, you mean hinata" or along those lines.

 

Then 631 came, the rage hit the fan, there were rants, complaints, and fourm shutdowns. Yet the evidence and clues for that event were already hinted, it just took the event of Minato meeting Sakura, even as minor as it was, it was the only continuation of Kushina's foreshadow, and many NH fans followed this like we did and the moment this came up, it made such a fragmented divide in the fans as to what Kushina "actually meant" despite it being simply finding a girl like her and so far thats only Sakura so far under the most potential because of that link.

 

Yet I fear there may be another meltdown soon, we know how important Rin is to Obito's character, its been presented a few times over the course of this entire lengthy battle. Naruto saw that memory of pain. He is about to talk no jutsu Obito.

 

The following are obvious:

-Team 7 and Minato had a similar setup in a love triange

-Obito loved Rin as Naruto loves Sakura

-There was never any onscreen evidence of Naruto's shifting feelings away from Sakura after 469, not even gravitaing towards Hinata. Rather only the stuff from 540 with Sakura on Sasuke was the only focus on any negative feelings on one they loved.

-Obito is considered the best opposite of naruto, a parallel for if Naruto became bad, Obito is everything Naruto could have become, beyond what Gaara initially was.

-Even just 631 with Naruto liking the idea of Sakura as his girlfriend, well what else is this supposed to hint?

 

So when this next chapter comes out, should Naruto plainly state he loves Sakura, what else are people hoping for beyond this? I mean we know sakura is not trusting sasuke, so if she is changing and naruto never did change his love, well thats that. Its not a matter of the pairing war anymore, should Naruto say he loves Sakura, thats game. It would literally be too obvious at that point. All that would remain is Sakura turning to Naruto and resolving what is actually nessessary for Hinata, and it aint much.

[BlueStarSaber]

All i'm prepped for is the potential of another meltdown this week or later.

 

I'm only saying this cause, given how Naruto will talk no jutsu Obito this week, if there's a mention of Naruto loving Sakura he himself confirms, then its going to be 631 all over again.

 

When 630 ended, it made all fans excited, for us NS fans we said Sakura may meet Minato, Minato may be reminded of Kushina in some way. Many other non-NS pairing fans said, "nah, no way, you mean hinata" or along those lines.

 

Then 631 came, the rage hit the fan, there were rants, complaints, and fourm shutdowns. Yet the evidence and clues for that event were already hinted, it just took the event of Minato meeting Sakura, even as minor as it was, it was the only continuation of Kushina's foreshadow, and many NH fans followed this like we did and the moment this came up, it made such a fragmented divide in the fans as to what Kushina "actually meant" despite it being simply finding a girl like her and so far thats only Sakura so far under the most potential because of that link.

 

Yet I fear there may be another meltdown soon, we know how important Rin is to Obito's character, its been presented a few times over the course of this entire lengthy battle. Naruto saw that memory of pain. He is about to talk no jutsu Obito.

 

The following are obvious:

-Team 7 and Minato had a similar setup in a love triange

-Obito loved Rin as Naruto loves Sakura

-There was never any onscreen evidence of Naruto's shifting feelings away from Sakura after 469, not even gravitaing towards Hinata. Rather only the stuff from 540 with Sakura on Sasuke was the only focus on any negative feelings on one they loved.

-Obito is considered the best opposite of naruto, a parallel for if Naruto became bad, Obito is everything Naruto could have become, beyond what Gaara initially was.

-Even just 631 with Naruto liking the idea of Sakura as his girlfriend, well what else is this supposed to hint?

 

So when this next chapter comes out, should Naruto plainly state he loves Sakura, what else are people hoping for beyond this? I mean we know sakura is not trusting sasuke, so if she is changing and naruto never did change his love, well thats that. Its not a matter of the pairing war anymore, should Naruto say he loves Sakura, thats game. It would literally be too obvious at that point. All that would remain is Sakura turning to Naruto and resolving what is actually nessessary for Hinata, and it aint much.

 

Well if Naruto does say he Loves Sakura it probably big a bigger uproar than before since this is Obito and NaruSaku at the same time. On the bright side it would stop people from saying Naruto was joking about his feelings in 631 without making them look foolish, well more than before.

[Luna]

In final fantasy who was the pairing? Cloud and Tifa or Aerith and Cloud? I always thought it was Cloud and Tifa.

[awesome sauce dude]

Lol naruto joking about his feelings. That makes me lol

[James S Cassidy]

In final fantasy VII who was the pairing? Cloud and Tifa or Aerith and Cloud? I always thought it was Cloud and Tifa.

 

Both actually. However, the canon pairing technically is Cloud and TIfa.

[Luna]

 

Both actually. However, the canon pairing technically is Cloud and TIfa.

Ohhhhhh I actually liked both, though I prefer Cloti.

Edited by Baka chan, 29 October 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[Inferno180]

 

Both actually. However, the canon pairing technically is Cloud and TIfa.

 

Well this was an easy one, I mean there was a love triangle as early as final fantasy 4 with Cecil, Rosa, and Kain. Cecil and Rosa became the canon one in that game, Kain loved rosa but because he had done so much wrong, he did the responsible thing leaving Rosa to her happiness with Cecil and because he did bad things, he left to atone for them, coming back in the after years as a holy dragoon.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

My preference of pairings can range from the obvious type or the ambiguous type. I ship both. However, it usually depends on the storyline for me. If it's an obvious pairing, I want a very good and engaging conflict that lasts until the end of series. For ambiguous pairings, all you really need for those are love triangles and vaguery lol. As long as a pairing has an existent conflict and interactions I love, I'll ship it.

 

As my way of identifying obvious vs. ambiguous ... it comes down to frequent emphasis/foreshadowing/development. It can utilize all of those storytelling methods or just one and it's enough. Those three elements are always the most important signs of you having an obvious pairing on your hands. Ambiguous is harder, you have to really pay attention to what you're seeing and analyze even the small things to decide if it's endgame or not. However, I found that's what's most interesting about them. It really gives you something to think about and can make the chase for canon much more interesting.  Ambiguous ships can get on my nerves at times when the waters are so murky, that almost any opinion over it is possible. It's frustrating, but can also be fun depending on the ship/writing/fandom.

 

As for what NaruSaku is? It definitely falls into the obvious shipping category as far as I'm concerned at this point. Maybe once I would've described it as ambiguous in Early Part II, but certainly not anymore. Kishmoto has employed all of my three warning flags that indicate it's a obvious coupling (Emphasis, foreshadowing, development) a lot in the course of the series:

 

1). Emphasis: The main character's feelings in a story is always the most important, whether you favor them or not. Naruto's feelings for Sakura have been a recurring subplot in the series, and we've been shown no sign of a change. That was obviously done for a reason, and that's the emphasis. If Naruto's love for Sakura wasn't meant to go anywhere or at least constantly rule above any feelings he had for another, then Kishi would've done it by now.

 

2). Foreshadowing:  Kishi's way of foreshadowing NS isn't the most conventional way to foreshadow a couple, it's not like you're getting a "These two will totally get together" every five minutes.  Rather, he uses themes and parallels for that end. The theme is "surpassing the previous" and the foreshadowing are the JiraTsu/MinaKushi/ObiRin parallels who had failed in some way or another so it lines up with everything. Particularly Kushina's "Find a girl like me" and Minato's "You remind me of Kushina". That was some crazy "hitting-you-over-the-head" foreshadowing.

 

3). Development:  There is almost no need to explain this. NaruSaku has been focused on so regularly in the course of the series, and that is always a major indicator it might go in a romance direction. Combine that with the foreshadowing and parallels, and you have the end pairing.

 

I consider NaruSaku obvious, despite why many don't want to believe it. Those three points are always crucial to making a ship endgame, and Kishimoto has been doing this for a long time. Abundantly.

[Nefertieh]

 

So the time the series is in effect has something to do with it? I guess, but then you are venturing into an unknown on whether or not a pairing is actually obvious. Some might claim that it is isn't obvious until after the fact the series has ended, but I am more of poking at the idea that the romance plays an important part to the series in it's entirely and that the ending has been foretold even before it has begun.

 

Some couples are very ambiguous and you don't know if they will even get together....and other couples...well, you kind of want to just scream at the the two people "Hurry up and make out already." So is NaruSaku an obvious pairing? That's a real tricky question to answer. Sure, we have all this evidence now, but could we say that back then when the series first started?

 

Let me put it this way, here is the logo of FFVIII

 

Here is it without the letters

 

 

The logo itself contains the love birds in an embrace and basically tells you how it ends even before the game even boots up. So basically, we know how this love relationship is going to end and the only question is how we reach that point in the story. Basically, even knowing the ending, the journey is what is most interesting.

 

Now imagine if the Naruto manga logo was of Sakura and Naruto embracing. Would you feel that the couple was obvious or not? Would the serial time matter or does it become a frustrating "Get it over with" kind of feel?

 

Again, bringing up the Aang and Katara pairing, you face another variable where the creators knew all along, but only dropped several hints in the series or even tried to throw red herrings to get you off the obvious trail. When it comes to others, was it it really unknown which couple was an obvious choice of an ending or rather a sequences that happened due to a last minute idea.

 

In another aspect, you could say all official couplings are pre-planned, but not all of them are obvious as the writer or creator chooses to make it ambiguous enough for people to keep guessing. We also have the variable that we the fans blind ourselves to the obvious even when it is right in front of our faces, but again you don't really know this until after the series has ended.

 

Has there ever been a series, whether Japanese or American, where the coupling changes or the original idea was changed to something else mid production? Hard to say until you get an official word from the creator themselves, but I think most of the time....no. It's hard to change the original idea in mid game and also make it believable unless you made it so ambiguous in the beginning to allow such a change and not break the canon. 

 

We do have some exception though like Dragonball Z where Vegeta and Bulma got together because Toriyama said he can't write romance for crap and also just to put an end to things he got tired of people asking about. So the author can spontaneous have pairings happen with little to no development.

 

You can look at this for the rarer examples of what Tv Tropes calls "Designated love interest"

http://tvtropes.org/...tedLoveInterest

 

No, I'm not saying an obvious pairing makes a bad story; but a pairing that doesn't end up together have much more drama/ anticipation for the readers. You can't really compare a 40-hour game to a weekly long-running manga series.

 

See exhibit A, Cloud Strife. We all know the guy is never going to get some because there are people who still love Aerith.

 

I personally think FFVIII was made in response to the fans who hated the love triangle in VII. But after the romance is said and done, nobody cares about it anymore. That's why you never see Rinoa together with Squall anywhere, but Squall is still popping up in games with his "pre-fallen-in-love" personality every few years.

 

And ofcourse, even though the pairing was obvious, Squall and Rinoa had their own hardships - ie with Rinoa becoming the new sorceress and Squall being the SeeD whose main goal is to destroy them.

 

 

Both actually. However, the canon pairing technically is Cloud and TIfa.

 

Except they were never canonically confirmed to have ended up together. They live in the same house but sleep in separate beds. >_> If it wasn't for the fact that Nomura basically overtook every new FFVII project in the recent years, I doubt we'd see this much Tifa at all.
 

Edited by Nefertieh, 29 October 2013 - 03:52 AM.

[That Uchiha]

I mostly go with pairings that aren't in your face and obvious.
Obvious pairings are so boring to me,  I can't ship them.
That's why I can't get into any of the Fairy Tail ships, it's too obvious. 
Oh, the main guy and girl got together, I'm so surprised.  ヽ(￣д￣;)ノ

Never saw that coming, nope. 

 

[rocci]

@nefertieh
Tifa is cloud childhood crush/love interest.

[Phantom_999]

I'd prefer obvious couples really, but acknowledge that shipping wars always come whether the couple is obvious or not. That said NaruSaku was not so obvious at first for me but I saw the potential which was why I shipped them in the first place, And BOY was I surprised during Part II/Shippuden.  I mean even though it is stated that Sakura loves Sasuke at that point, How she and Naruto Interacted in Part II/Shippuden gave me the vibes of an actual couple, teasing each other, supporting each other emotionally, and Sakura is not afraid to call Naruto out if she worries about him, whereas she is just subservient to Sasuke. the way Sakura and Naruto connect to each other shows that they are comfortable being themselves when together, and don't need to put on an act.   

Edited by Phantom_999, 29 October 2013 - 02:42 PM.