79 replies to this topic

[PhenixElite]

Okay. I took PhenixElite's "awkward moments" list and sort of countered them. Tell me what you all think, if you want.


PoaL could be considered as the moment Naruto gave up the hope of being with Sakura having now realized that she loves Sasuke that much. PoaL could very easily work in SS's (love that word) favour.


Why would this be awkward? Naruto loved Sakura but it wasn't to be and he moved on. Then he found love with someone else.


There is no development of that kind. There are only possible moments that could be interpreted in romantic way. Such as the feeding scene and the hug. But these could just be Sakura being a friend to Naruto. Friends support their friends, hug them and help them out if they are hurt.


This wouldn't be awkward either. Naruto was in love with Sakura but then he just moved on.


If NS never happens, it still parallels ObiRin and JiraTsu. NS even has similarities to MinaKushi even if NS never happens. MinaKushi will remain a sort of example of what NS could have been if it happened.


It wasn't useless: Sakura became his good and trusted friend.


Well, like I said, there is no development of that kind: we don't still know if Sakura has romantic feelings for Naruto. There are only possible moments that could be interpreted in romantic way. Kishi has kept Sakura's feelings for Naruto very vague. Kishi showed Sakura and Naruto spending time together because their bond is important and a part of the manga, even if the bond is just platonic.


Yeah. And I don't expect you to answer me, if you don't want to. I just thought to give my POV to your examples.


Well, I do.

Sorry but i dont think you understand the concept of shonen mangas. You dont show the main character in love with the heroine both coming closer during every new arc, just to forget all of this by the end. You cant applie the manga to real life, and thats why it would be bad writing. You jut dont show romantic develolment between two characters and then end up the main character with the girl he saw about 8 times in the story.
It would be ok to show the main character end up with someone else if there would have been development for them, but thats not the case in this story.

But as said, i know i will never convince you, and you will never convince me, so i think its better to agree to dissagree.

@slextrem: i dont think its possible to missinpretete sakuras feelings for naruto. Its obvious through the manga and the databooks. You dont say "shes not sure how she feels" if its just friendship, or "seeing her teammate mature so fast makes her hearth beat faster". Also the text that say:"sasuke makes her feel lik she wants to die and naruto gives her new breath on live."
So theres no way around that.

If kishi shows that sakura had no romantic feelings for naruto then its not us missinterpreteting, its just inconsistent an bad writing from kishi.

Edited by PhenixElite, 11 January 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[Lid]

This idea was kind of going through my head too, especially watching old episodes of part 1 on Adult Swim on Saturday nights. Looking back at the scene with the park bench where Naruto had disguised himself as Sasuke and talked about Sakura's forehead, Sakura willing to take the team out of the first part of the Chuunin exam for Naruto's sake (even though it was unnecessary), Sakura cheering Naruto on in the tournament parts, Naruto wanting to rescue Sakura against Gaara, Naruto making that promise to Sakura to make her happy, not to mention all that happened in part 2.

Thinking of how that relationship advanced over time and all that development that in my view looked like it was leading to a relationship would feel so meaningless and yes as the thread is titled, a bit awkward.

I'm not sure I'd be able to enjoy the manga/anime if I were to rewatch/read it if the pairing doesn't happen.

[Chucky-kun]

Well actually, there is one way to disregard all the development... ASSPULL NO JUTSU, aka bad writing.

[Nick Soapdish]

Okay. I took PhenixElite's "awkward moments" list and sort of countered them. Tell me what you all think, if you want.

Ok. It's the same two responses for most of those questions (which is fine because they're similar) and that's how I'll respond as well.

PoaL could be considered as the moment Naruto gave up the hope of being with Sakura having now realized that she loves Sasuke that much. PoaL could very easily work in SS's (love that word) favour.

But that's not when he gave up on her and moved on. He still badgered her for dates years after that.

There is no development of that kind. There are only possible moments that could be interpreted in romantic way. Such as the feeding scene and the hug. But these could just be Sakura being a friend to Naruto. Friends support their friends, hug them and help them out if they are hurt.

Or Chapter 252, where she admires how much he's changed, while blushing with cherry blossoms blowing in the background. So she was also showing that she's physically attracted to him. And the feeding scene isn't just being helpful; Sakura is also being flirty. It's not proof that she loves him. Guys and girls flirt.

It wasn't useless: Sakura became his good and trusted friend.

No real argument there, but I'd quibble over whether his pursuit of Sakura is what caused that.

[pharix]

Chapter 474, eh?
...You know what I want? A chapter where we're given Sakura's perspective on her feelings. I'm tired of everyone else telling her how she feels.

"I'm the only one who knows what I'm thinking!" - Haruno Sakura, Naruto Shippuden Chapter 470

it would be pretty funny if this happened in 616

also, Poison: hugs are generally considered romantic in Japan...take that with a grain of salt

Edited by pharix, 11 January 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

PhenixElite, I have to agree to disagree, too. What you are describing is so very subjective. I don't even see this romantic development, much less why it would be a bad thing for Naruto to move on and I have thought that Kishi has been relatively consistent in his romance (Sakura-->Sasuke, Hinata-->Naruto, Naruto-->Sakura, except now maybe Naruto-->Hinata.)

But that's not when he gave up on her and moved on. He still badgered her for dates years after that.

How serious was he though, did he honestly expect Sakura to say yes? Thing is, we know that Naruto has had romantic feelings for Sakura, why would it be awkward that he has asked her out? The whole question is what moments will be awkward, which I guess means feel like plotholes, or like moments which should have indicated romantic feelings but didn't and so on. We know that Naruto had romantic feelings for Sakura, so it is not weird or awkward that he asks her out. We don't yet know if or when Naruto has moved on. If he says that he moved on from Sakura at ch 4, yeah, that would be really weird and awkward considering the series after ch 4. But if he moved on after discovering that Hinata was interested in him and after witnessing yet again Sakura's continuing love for Sasuke (of which he has known since the part I), why would that be awkward? When is the last time Naruto even has asked Sakura out?

Or Chapter 252, where she admires how much he's changed, while blushing with cherry blossoms blowing in the background. So she was also showing that she's physically attracted to him. And the feeding scene isn't just being helpful; Sakura is also being flirty. It's not proof that she loves him. Guys and girls flirt.

I'm willing to consider that blushing in ch 252 as a moment that might feel awkward for me too if NS didn't happen. The flirty thing with the feeding I just don't see. I understand both these moments from the writer's POV: they are just those moments which can be interpreted both ways, as hints for NS but are still vague enough not to confirm anything.

No real argument there, but I'd quibble over whether his pursuit of Sakura is what caused that.

I don't even understand how that "NaruSaku bond is useless if their romance doesn't happen" is supposed to be something that will feel awkward if NS doesn't happen. The way I see it, Kishi developed NS as purely friendship (if Naruto moves on romantically, he will still consider Sakura a good friend) and that is why he kept giving them moments together: to portray the good friendship between them and to show Sakura evolve as a character in relation to Naruto. Nothing awkward or useless about that. This attitude just treats their friendship like it is worthless and waste of time if Sakura does not fall in love with Naruto.

Like I said: aside from maybe few moments, everything between Naruto and Sakura can be explained with the simple fact that they are friends and additionally that Naruto once had a crush on/had romantic feelings for/was in love with Sakura. Every moment The Notorious L.I.D. mentioned, in fact, can be explained with these two facts. You just keep making it seem like only true romantic love between Sakura and Naruto can explain, for example, why they once hugged and worried for each other.

also, Poison: hugs are generally considered romantic in Japan...take that with a grain of salt

You keep talking about Japan like it is some alien culture on the Mars or something. Like you need some sort of intergalactic guide book to understand the wacky differences between, it seems, every other culture on Earth and Japan. It is true that Japan has different cultural background than, say, America. But friends hugs each other in Japan, too, you know. And grandmas hug their grandchildren. And friends can hold hands, too. It is the context which makes it romantic, even in Japan.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 11 January 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[PhenixElite]

PhenixElite, I have to agree to disagree, too. What you are describing is so very subjective. I don't even see this romantic development, much less why it would be a bad thing for Naruto to move on and I have thought that Kishi has been relatively consistent in his romance (Sakura-->Sasuke, Hinata-->Naruto, Naruto-->Sakura, except now maybe Naruto-->Hinata.)


How serious was he though, did he honestly expect Sakura to say yes? Thing is, we know that Naruto has had romantic feelings for Sakura, why would it be awkward that he has asked her out? The whole question is what moments will be awkward, which I guess means feel like plotholes, or like moments which should have indicated romantic feelings but didn't and so on. We know that Naruto had romantic feelings for Sakura, so it is not weird or awkward that he asks her out. We don't yet know if or when Naruto has moved on. If he says that he moved on from Sakura at ch 4, yeah, that would be really weird and awkward considering the series after ch 4. But if he moved on after discovering that Hinata was interested in him and after witnessing yet again Sakura's continuing love for Sasuke (of which he has known since the part I), why would that be awkward? When is the last time Naruto even has asked Sakura out?


I'm willing to consider that blushing in ch 252 as a moment that might feel awkward for me too if NS didn't happen. The flirty thing with the feeding I just don't see. I understand both these moments from the writer's POV: they are just those moments which can be interpreted both ways, as hints for NS but are still vague enough not to confirm anything.


I don't even understand how that "NaruSaku bond is useless if their romance doesn't happen" is supposed to be something that will feel awkward if NS doesn't happen. The way I see it, Kishi developed NS as purely friendship (if Naruto moves on romantically, he will still consider Sakura a good friend) and that is why he kept giving them moments together: to portray the good friendship between them and to show Sakura evolve as a character in relation to Naruto. Nothing awkward or useless about that. This attitude just treats their friendship like it is worthless and waste of time if Sakura does not fall in love with Naruto.

Like I said: aside from maybe few moments, everything between Naruto and Sakura can be explained with the simple fact that they are friends and additionally that Naruto once had a crush on/had romantic feelings for/was in love with Sakura. Every moment The Notorious L.I.D. mentioned, in fact, can be explained with these two facts. You just keep making it seem like only true romantic love between Sakura and Naruto can explain, for example, why they once hugged and worried for each other.


You keep talking about Japan like it is some alien culture on the Mars or something. Like you need some sort of intergalactic guide book to understand the wacky differences between, it seems, every other culture on Earth and Japan. It is true that Japan has different cultural background than, say, America. But friends hugs each other in Japan, too, you know. And grandmas hug their grandchildren. And friends can hold hands, too. It is the context which makes it romantic, even in Japan.

You will never see the interaction between naruto and sakura as romantic since your are a SS shiper an like abusive realstionships.

[Liu bie]

It would also be extremly arkward in the manga, just saying. The fillers are the smallest problem.

Thank you for your opinion.

But I am still thinking that would not be awkward in the manga. Yes, we have all those NS moments in the manga, but let's count(
Naruto was in love with Sakura but then he just moved on, but still is a maybe now we are not sure until Kishi do something.)

In the anime that would be extremely awkward, that fillers are the smallest problems? they are a lot and make the problem big. that is bigger when we have a RTN and worse when we have episode 235 some explanation that the Manga does not have against after Sakura's confession. ( But in the end anime is just the anime an the manga is just the manga
)

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

You will never see the interaction between naruto and sakura as romantic since your are a SS shiper an like abusive realstionships.

Ah, this clever counter argument again. Yes, I do not see their interactions as particularly romantic. I think it's because, well, because they are not. If you want to think that I don't see them as romantic because I am biased/can't read/an idiot/totally like only abusive relationships, feel free to think that. Have to agree to disagree, then.

In the anime that would be extremely awkward, that fillers are the smallest problems? they are a lot and make the problem big. that is bigger when we have a RTN and worse when we have episode 235 some explanation that the Manga does not have against after Sakura's confession. ( But in the end anime is just the anime an the manga is just the manga
)

It might confuse some people who only watch the anime but if they are that confused they can just google and find out about how the anime sometimes adds moments that the manga didn't have, and this alone should clear their minds.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 11 January 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[sushi.]

I don't even understand how that "NaruSaku bond is useless if their romance doesn't happen" is supposed to be something that will feel awkward if NS doesn't happen. The way I see it, Kishi developed NS as purely friendship (if Naruto moves on romantically, he will still consider Sakura a good friend) and that is why he kept giving them moments together: to portray the good friendship between them and to show Sakura evolve as a character in relation to Naruto. Nothing awkward or useless about that. This attitude just treats their friendship like it is worthless and waste of time if Sakura does not fall in love with Naruto.

Like I said: aside from maybe few moments, everything between Naruto and Sakura can be explained with the simple fact that they are friends and additionally that Naruto once had a crush on/had romantic feelings for/was in love with Sakura. Every moment The Notorious L.I.D. mentioned, in fact, can be explained with these two facts. You just keep making it seem like only true romantic love between Sakura and Naruto can explain, for example, why they once hugged and worried for each other.

You don't see if you don't try to see. If Naruto makes her heart beat faster, what can it possibly be besides love? I think they should be more than best friends because they have the strongest bond in the entire series(IMO equal to SasuNaru). If Naruto has the strongest bond with Sakura, why should he end up with..let's see, Hinata? Those who has the strongest bond will never be driven apart.

You will never see the interaction between naruto and sakura as romantic since your are a SS shiper an like abusive realstionships.

Anyhow, please keep the peace here..I don't like how this thread is going. Don't write something like this, it's rude and the mods will close the thread. Anyone who is rude will drag all the people that like this thread down with them.

Edited by sushi., 11 January 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[PhenixElite]

Thank you for your opinion.

But I am still thinking that would not be awkward in the manga. Yes, we have all those NS moments in the manga, but let's count(
Naruto was in love with Sakura but then he just moved on, but still is a maybe now we are not sure until Kishi do something.)

In the anime that would be extremely awkward, that fillers are the smallest problems? they are a lot and make the problem big. that is bigger when we have a RTN and worse when we have episode 235 some explanation that the Manga does not have against after Sakura's confession. ( But in the end anime is just the anime an the manga is just the manga
)

So you think its not awkward to show the main charcter whos in love with the main heroine from the start and spends 90% of his time with her and does so much for her, also is shown as a character who tries everything to reach his goals and never gives up, ending with the side character?

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

You don't see if you don't try to see. If Naruto makes her heart beat faster, what can it possibly be besides love? I think they should be more than best friends because they have the strongest bond in the entire series(IMO equal to SasuNaru). If Naruto has the strongest bond with Sakura, why should he end up with..let's see, Hinata? Those who has the strongest bond will never be driven apart.

Bolded: Look, when you write something like that, what you are implying is that either I am too dumb to get it or am lying when I say don't see it. I know that this is not what you meant, but that is the implication. I honestly don't see it. I honestly read this manga and have never thought that NS will definitely get together. I see Kishi building possible NS, but nothing that absolutely screams to me that NS will happen. I don't even see Naruto and Sakura having that strong bond, much less the strongest bond. In other words: I have totally different take than you. This is a big fandom and it is my understanding that most people do not see NS either. Maybe we are all mistaken, but not because we were in denial of all NS or because we didn't know how to read the manga. We just saw things differently than Kishi intended.

[Nick Soapdish]

PhenixElite, I have to agree to disagree, too. What you are describing is so very subjective. I don't even see this romantic development, much less why it would be a bad thing for Naruto to move on and I have thought that Kishi has been relatively consistent in his romance (Sakura-->Sasuke, Hinata-->Naruto, Naruto-->Sakura, except now maybe Naruto-->Hinata.)

If you're saying maybe Naruto -> Hinata, it's gotta be a lot stronger than that for Sakura -> Naruto.

How serious was he though, did he honestly expect Sakura to say yes? Thing is, we know that Naruto has had romantic feelings for Sakura, why would it be awkward that he has asked her out? The whole question is what moments will be awkward, which I guess means feel like plotholes, or like moments which should have indicated romantic feelings but didn't and so on. We know that Naruto had romantic feelings for Sakura, so it is not weird or awkward that he asks her out. We don't yet know if or when Naruto has moved on. If he says that he moved on from Sakura at ch 4, yeah, that would be really weird and awkward considering the series after ch 4. But if he moved on after discovering that Hinata was interested in him and after witnessing yet again Sakura's continuing love for Sasuke (of which he has known since the part I), why would that be awkward? When is the last time Naruto even has asked Sakura out?

It really looks like you're over-thinking it. He can be serious without expecting her to say yes. When getting to spend time with her, he immediately asked if it was a date and looked crushed when she averred.

It's been well over a hundred chapters since he asked her on a date and not since the confession, but that could've been just a few weeks ago in the Narutoverse. It's been pretty much non-stop action since then.

I'm willing to consider that blushing in ch 252 as a moment that might feel awkward for me too if NS didn't happen. The flirty thing with the feeding I just don't see. I understand both these moments from the writer's POV: they are just those moments which can be interpreted both ways, as hints for NS but are still vague enough not to confirm anything.

Look at her eyes when she's feeding Naruto. Or Naruto's reaction. Or his complaint when Sai interrupts.

She's definitely flirting and Naruto is still flummoxed by her.

I don't even understand how that "NaruSaku bond is useless if their romance doesn't happen" is supposed to be something that will feel awkward if NS doesn't happen.

I don't see that either. They have an incredible bond either way.

[tricksie]

You will never see the interaction between naruto and sakura as romantic since your are a SS shiper an like abusive realstionships.

Do not take up space on this site with crap like this. Some disagrees with you and you say they like abusive relationships? You can check your pm for my full opinion. I'm a lenient person, but your flirting with a ban.

Everybody else move along. These aren't the droids your looking for.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

If you're saying maybe Naruto -> Hinata, it's gotta be a lot stronger than that for Sakura -> Naruto.

I'm mostly just basing it on the NH assumption that Naruto taking Hinata's hand is meant to be the start of Naruto showing his feelings for Hinata and getting together with her. It is mostly speculation at this point, assuming that SS and NH will happen. The next chapter could easily crush NH before it even starts. *shrug*

It really looks like you're over-thinking it. He can be serious without expecting her to say yes. When getting to spend time with her, he immediately asked if it was a date and looked crushed when she averred.

It's been well over a hundred chapters since he asked her on a date and not since the confession, but that could've been just a few weeks ago in the Narutoverse. It's been pretty much non-stop action since then.

Yeah, but when a writer doesn't mention something that is, at least according to NS shippers, supposed to be an important part of the plot (NS), then the readers will get suspicious. Why hasn't Naruto thought about Sakura during so many chapters, why hasn't he confirmed his love for her, why hasn't he in any way indicated that he still likes her romantically? NS shippers argue that it's because Kishi wants to keep the suspense alive, because there is a war and that Kishi will soon confirm NS. You may well be right. We who don't ship NS have, of course, our own theories.

Look at her eyes when she's feeding Naruto. Or Naruto's reaction. Or his complaint when Sai interrupts.

She's definitely flirting and Naruto is still flummoxed by her.

Naruto is excited, sure. But I still don't really see Sakura being that flirty. Teasing, maybe. That the same thing these days?

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 11 January 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[sushi.]

Naruto is excited, sure. But I still don't really see Sakura being that flirty. Teasing, maybe. That the same thing these days?

He looks like he's in complete shock. Like he doesn't believe it's happening. He even questioned himself if it was really happening. I googled both the word "excited" and "shock", and I think even a neutral shipper should see that Naruto's face was more of a shock.

And before Naruto falls out of love with Sakura, he should stop calling her "Sakura-chan"

[Slextrem]

@slextrem: i dont think its possible to missinpretete sakuras feelings for naruto. Its obvious through the manga and the databooks. You dont say "shes not sure how she feels" if its just friendship, or "seeing her teammate mature so fast makes her hearth beat faster". Also the text that say:"sasuke makes her feel lik she wants to die and naruto gives her new breath on live."
So theres no way around that.

If kishi shows that sakura had no romantic feelings for naruto then its not us missinterpreteting, its just inconsistent an bad writing from kishi.

I agree with you completely. In my mind, Sakura undoubtedly has fallen in love with Naruto but hasn't realized it yet.

All I was saying was, if Poison's prediction turns out to be true, then it would mean we misinterpreted Sakura's development with Naruto. Yes, to most of us it would be very bad writing, but it would also mean that Kishimoto always intended the development between Naruto and Sakura to be taken as friendly. Fortunately, NaruSaku has so much development that this isn't very likely.

[Sakura Blossoms]

You will never see the interaction between naruto and sakura as romantic since your are a SS shiper an like abusive realstionships.

Anyhow, please keep the peace here..I don't like how this thread is going. Don't write something like this, it's rude and the mods will close the thread. Anyone who is rude will drag all the people that like this thread down with them.

PhenixElite - You are all kinds of unbelievable, you know that.

Did you even remotely think before making such a derogatory statement as the one you just made? That someone is into abusive relationships because they ship a pairing different from yours? In one fell swoop you personally insulted that member, and in the same breath insulted the people who ship a different pairing from you. You were unofficially warned before the threads locked, about the abrasive way you sometimes talk to others.

This warning is now an Official Warning.

Stop talking like a self-entitled child. Do it again, and you'll quickly wrack up enough warnings to trigger a temporary leave of absence to think about how to correct your tone. We Mods aren't going to let statements like yours derail threads again, to the point we have to unfortunately lock them again for people to calm down.

For the most part everyone else has been doing well since the threads re-opened. Let things continue on a good note.

[AzureWaters]

You will never see the interaction between naruto and sakura as romantic since your are a SS shiper an like abusive realstionships.

What a perfect counter to her LAP.

[Nate River]

What a perfect counter to her LAP.

We are aware of the issue and felt that is bad enough that he needed to publically called out and warned (which he just was by Sakura Blossoms). Please don't breath any new life into this by continuing to quote the guy.