57 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

Not really?

There are dozens of tsundere characters. Dozens. I can think only of three characters with chest complex. Three. And they not even are tiny-chested.

How that constitutes a trend of tsunderes being made with small chest sizes?

No, I'm sorry. Factually, most of tsundere characters have large or average-sized breasts. Let's see Naruto characters: Ino, Tsunade, Temari... all of them are tsunderes and they are not flat-chested at all. Sakura is considered being flat-chested for some people, but if you read the manga and observe how she is drawn, it is obvious she is not.

Yes, tsundere being always or nearly always made with small chest sizes is fanon. "Everyone" tells that because everyone "knows" it is right. Right like everyone "knows" shonen=action without romance and shojo=romance and no action (in spite of it is factually untrue). Right like everyone "knows" Sakura constantly hits Naruto (one dozen of comical hits hits in over six-hundred chapter... yes, constantly). People hears someone else making those claims and repeat them without bothering in fact-checking. And so it is like fanon spreads.

You know I am a big mecha show fan? Mainly of seventies and eighties shows. People makes a ton of assumptions about those shows, but when someone actually WATCHES one of them, that person nearly always tells "It is not your average robot show!". I have heard that sentence SO MANY times about such a large number of shows I wonder what the average super robot show is supposed to be.

I don't know if you have watched Ranma 1/2 or read Ranma fanfiction, but Ranma's fandom is full of misconceptions or assumptions. Such like Kuno calling Ranma a sorceror has bewitched his -Kuno's- loves into rejecting him. Kuno is delusional, but he has never called Ranma a sorceror in canon. However you find that in every fanfiction, and Ranma fans think that happens in canon. That is what fandom is.

What really sets a tsundere off? Reasons are sundry and they are more complex than a breast size. To check it, let's examine some examples (hopefully it'll serve to steer this discussion away lewd subjects, and talking again about tsunderes in general):

Sayaka Yumi from Mazinger-Z: She has a big chest and she is ashamed of her body not at all. What sets her angry side off? Well, she is missing her mother (because she is dead) and her father because he is married to his job (she has to nearly twist his arm to force him to go home to have dinner) and he is a cool and analytical scientist has a hard work expressing his feelings. She may come across like arrogant and attention-seeking because she spends the whole time trying to prove herself to earn her father's attention and approval. Also, she is in love with an idiot jerkass constantly mockes her even when she is being nice to him. In the original manga, though, Kouji was less of a jerkass, hence she was less hot-tempered.

Jun Hono from Great Mazinger: She NEVER get angsty about her breast size, let me assure you. Her mood shifts are due to things have nothing to do with breast size or Tetsuya: she is an orphan. Her mother was Japanese and her biological father was a American black man. Since she was a child people picked on her for being a girl, being half-foreigner and being half-black. Her adoptive father has a very hard time expressing her feelings and he treats her mainly like a soldier. She is determined to be a person can stand up for herself, and she is nicer than most characters of her show, but she is full with inner tensions, and Tetsuya is real good setting her off.

Oscar de Jarjayes from Rose of Versailles: It is harder to notice here because she dressed like a man, but she is obsessed over her chest not at all. She is the main character of a series set during French Revolution, so her breasts would be the lesser of her troubles (her biggest trouble is she often wishes living a normal life instead of behaving like a male soldier the whole time).

Lum from Urusei Yatsura: she is stacked, like you can see. In fact she was meant to be a fanservice character instead of the female lead, but she became amazingly popular, forcing Takahashi to change the intended official pairing. She gets angry when the main character acts like a pervert wih any woman but her.

Madoka Ayukawa from Kimagure Orange Road: Her chest is not small at all (and the main character never teases her about her body because he thinks she is the most beautiful girl he has known. And because he likes breathing). Her parents were musicians spent the whole time traveling, leaving her in care of her older sister. She barely had friends growing up. Most boys she knew wanted getting in her pants or were frightened of her because she had shown them she can defend herself and is not shy about beating harassers. Hence, she developed a pretty lonely, and sometimes cold personality (although her mood can change very radically. She can be aloof or distant or hot-tempered and angry). She tolerates not pervert or jerks (and unfortunately that describes the ninety-nine percent of males of her high school), and she reacts to them ignoring them coldly... or beating them up if they get her angry.

Kyoko Otonashi from Maison Ikkoku: She is a beautyiful adult woman and she is never mocked over her chest. Her tensions and mood changes come from: she being a widow; her mother wanting getting her remarried if she wants or not; her father treating her like a little girl; she being the manager of a boarding house populated by meddlesome, obnoxious jerks; and the main character -who she is in love with- being an utter pushover unable to stand upo for himself.

Naru Narusegawa from Love Hina: I have just read a bunch of Love Hina chapters, so I can not talk much about her, but if I remember correctly, Keitaro had a knack for falling into situations where he seemed a pervert or a creep... and she took it very badly.

Asuka Langley Soryu from Evangelion: She has a large chest, she knows it and she flaunts it (mainly to the main character and Ryoji Kaji). Her mood shifts and bad temper are due to a bunch of inner tensions, confidence and self-worth issues and childhood trauma nobody did anything about. Her parents screwed her around, leading her to believe caring for someone else only leads to pain, so she pushes everybody away. However she also yearns for someone looking past it and showing they care despite all. The series creator stated she likes the main character, but when she flirted with him, he dodged her advances (because he thought she could not possibly be interested in him), so she believed HE was not interested in her, and in turn it got her angrier, pushing him away further. She also thought being a mecha pilot was all she had, so she strove to be the best ever so people noticed her... but then she found a barely-trained spineless wimp had a better performance... and if she wanted to admit it or not, she was in love with that weakling, who was her biggest rival.

I wish using more examples of shojo manga, but I have read way less shojo series.

Tsundere characters can get quite complex when you analyze the reasons of her behavior.

Well I grew up with some Tsunderes with complexes about their chests, and I DID NOT mean all of them do. So let me correct my self; some tsunderes have a breast complex. I was only point out that if they did That was the mentality behind why there were drawn like that. And we all know Tsunderes snap at all the things that annoy them or are deemed inappropriate; That's WHY they're tsunderes. And of course they may have complexities on why the act the way the do, I never denied it. It might be due to some kind of inferiority complex or insecurity about something, and not to mention trauma as well. So I wasn't saying Tsunderes have small chests, only pointing out if they did, it is something that that sets them in tsuntsun mode, among other things.

Edited by Phantom_999, 25 November 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[Jenskott]

Hi. I'm sorry replying so late, but I have been caught in other things.

Well I grew up with some Tsunderes with complexes about their chests, and I DID NOT mean all of them do. So let me correct my self; some tsunderes have a breast complex. I was only point out that if they did That was the mentality behind why there were drawn like that.[/

Well, your former posts sort of implied -even if it was not your intent- that it was a common trait. I disagreed about it and said that was a fanon misconception. You disagreed with it, so I felt compelled to reason my position and back it with examples. That is all.

Anyway, I am not sure of what the mentality is when one of them shows being insecure about her body. Keep in mind we do not know what the author intent is, and we are talking about several people. We have no way to know if all of them had the same intent, and it is risky inferring they do based on our perception of their culture.

Wow, that is many words to tell "I can't tell".

And we all know Tsunderes snap at all the things that annoy them or are deemed inappropriate; That's WHY they're tsunderes. And of course they may have complexities on why the act the way the do, I never denied it.

I think you have misunderstood me. I never told that you denied that. I was only giving examples of tsundere characters and stating I think they can be complex.

It might be due to some kind of inferiority complex or insecurity about something, and not to mention trauma as well. So I wasn't saying Tsunderes have small chests, only pointing out if they did, it is something that that sets them in tsuntsun mode, among other things.

Er... Not to be rude, but you did. And when I disagreed, you insisted on they were made with small chests.

Nonetheless I would like talking about more things regarding the trope instead of arguing about bust sizes on anime characters, but it looks like people got tired of this topic.

[T XD]

I love talking about tsunderes XD They're my favorite characters XD

I read some of the posts and I agree with some of them. But let me tell you something, that tsunderes will always hit the male protagonist wherever and whenever they are or doing or the protagonist trigger something to hit them. When tsunderes overdo in hitting, it's not a catastrophe given that they're naturally like that and it's a trait in their personality, and one of the main reason when they overdo it is for comic relief. After all it depends on the writer's choice in the over doing it part, if it's a lot or averagely.
Sadly, there's people who come to hate them because 1: they don't know there's something called tsundre characters, 2: they don't know what a tsundere means, 3: it's both of 1 and 2.

Tsundere characters will always hit and beat even if they love the protagonist. Expect that from every tsundere you know in every manga and anime which you will see Sakura always like this with Naruto even when they get together.

Well, this is what I want say and what I have in mind for now XD Sorry, if somebody else already state some of this

Edited by T XD, 03 January 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Hi. I'm sorry replying so late, but I have been caught in other things.



Well, your former posts sort of implied -even if it was not your intent- that it was a common trait. I disagreed about it and said that was a fanon misconception. You disagreed with it, so I felt compelled to reason my position and back it with examples. That is all.

Anyway, I am not sure of what the mentality is when one of them shows being insecure about her body. Keep in mind we do not know what the author intent is, and we are talking about several people. We have no way to know if all of them had the same intent, and it is risky inferring they do based on our perception of their culture.

Wow, that is many words to tell "I can't tell".



I think you have misunderstood me. I never told that you denied that. I was only giving examples of tsundere characters and stating I think they can be complex.



Er... Not to be rude, but you did. And when I disagreed, you insisted on they were made with small chests.

Nonetheless I would like talking about more things regarding the trope instead of arguing about bust sizes on anime characters, but it looks like people got tired of this topic.

Well I don't mean it was definite, I just could not recall any that had large bust sizes. But yeah moving on.

[Tendo Ryuken]

Tsunade had small chest when she was younger at naruto's age


PS: orochimaru still weird, look at his neck oh wow!

i know. but look

~ years ago she got small chest and she was a tsundere
~ nowadays she got awesome size and she is still a tsundere

again. the thing i want to say is that being a tsundere has nothing to do with their size. i dont like the idea, sounds like saying they became tsundere because of their size.

and i would like to add 2 more tsundere to my favorite list. hildegarde of beelzebub and kotegawa yui of to love ru

PS: i think its hard to move from this topic, lol.

[Jenskott]

I love talking about tsunderes XD They're my favorite characters XD

I read some of the posts and I agree with some of them. But let me tell you something, that tsunderes will always hit the male protagonist wherever and whenever they are or doing or the protagonist trigger something to hit them. When tsunderes overdo in hitting, it's not a catastrophe given that they're naturally like that and it's a trait in their personality, and one of the main reason when they overdo it is for comic relief. After all it depends on the writer's choice in the over doing it part, if it's a lot or averagely.

Not always. Some tsunderes do, others don't. The trope does not entail the character will use violence.

Sadly, there's people who come to hate them because 1: they don't know there's something called tsundre characters, 2: they don't know what a tsundere means, 3: it's both of 1 and 2.

I would add: 3: they don't -or don't want to- get what violence is often used like a source of comedy. It is supposed to be laughed off or ignored, not taken seriously. Honestly, whoever takes it seriously does not get the foundations of the genre and surely he/she should not be reading comic-books or cartoons (much like a The Simpsons fan thinks Homer should get arrested because he constantly throttles Bart and neglects his children. Or Transformers fans who complain Optimus Prime's trailer always disappeared off-screen during the battles in the old show and it must be explained).

Tsundere characters will always hit and beat even if they love the protagonist. Expect that from every tsundere you know in every manga and anime which you will see Sakura always like this with Naruto even when they get together.

Heh. Do you want knowing what a relationship between two tsunderes is like? You should see Tetsuya and Jun from Great Mazinger. And in that instance, the male half of the couple was the most temperamental of them. Jun tried to be patient with him since she knew him since they were children, she knew why he was how he was and behaved like he did and knew how his real self he tried to hide from everybody else, but she also made very clear there were limits to her willingness to put up with crap.

Well I don't mean it was definite, I just could not recall any that had large bust sizes. But yeah moving on.

I am glad we can move on.

and i would like to add 2 more tsundere to my favorite list. hildegarde of beelzebub and kotegawa yui of to love ru

I have not watched those animes. What those girls are like?

Anyway, let's add more examples:

Shinobu Miyake from Urusei Yatsura: She was serious, intelligent, and dated her childhood friend... who was an idiot and a pervert. She wished Ataru stopped chasing after other women, so his repeated pervert antics got her very angry. She was meant to be the main character's primary love interest, but Takahashi's editors had other ideas and forced her to change it. So early on the series Shinobu decided to be only friends with Ataru and chasing after Shutaro Mendo, who was more handsome and richer... until she realized he was right like Ataru -an idiotic womanizer-. Later she finally met a boy would only look to her instead of chasing after other women.

Ran Mouri from Detective Conan: She liked -very- much Shinichi. However he was obsessed with becoming a detective, so she got angry because she thought he never noticed her. The sad irony was: Shinichi loved Ran, but he did not know she thought of him like something else than her childhood friend; and she later told him, not knowing it was to Shinichi whom she was talking, but he could not tell her he reciprocated her feelings.

Minami Asakura from Touch: Minami and the Uesugi twins -Tatsuya and Kazuya- had grown up together and they were childhood friends. Kazuya was good student, excellent baseball player, attentive and too nice for his own good. Tatsuya was lazy, useless, clumsy, rude, pervert and a bad student. Minami was always picking on him. Why? Because she knew Tetsuya overpassed his brother in everything and he was only pretending being clumsy and dumb, and she got angry that people badmouthed him (only she was allowed to, you know) and thought badly of him. However Tatsuya did not want to overshadow his brother (for all his good things, Kazuya had nearly zero self-esteem), and he knew Kazuya was too in love with Minami. The only thing he ever wanted was that he, his brother and Minami were friends forever, even if it meant he would be heart-broken, so he acted clumsily and never strove for anything to not overshadow his brother. However he did not count on Kazuya was not who Minami was in love with, and his brother had never asked him he let him win.

Kagome from Inuyasha: Other than the fact of spending the whole -loooooooooong- story traveling between ages, Kagome got irritated or upset cause Inuyasha's rude antics. Inuyasha getting jealousy whenever a man hit on her in spite of he was clearly not over Kikyo did not help. Though she had a better mastery of her temper than other tsunderes created by Takahashi (like Akane, Shinobu or Lum), and she did not resort to violence too often.

[T XD]

Not always. Some tsunderes do, others don't. The trope does not entail the character will use violence.

Well, yeah. I didn't mean 'always' as every minute they are with them. But, most of the time when they're with them, you'll witness a kick ass.

I would add: 3: they don't -or don't want to- get what violence is often used like a source of comedy. It is supposed to be laughed off or ignored, not taken seriously. Honestly, whoever takes it seriously does not get the foundations of the genre and surely he/she should not be reading comic-books or cartoons (much like a The Simpsons fan thinks Homer should get arrested because he constantly throttles Bart and neglects his children. Or Transformers fans who complain Optimus Prime's trailer always disappeared off-screen during the battles in the old show and it must be explained).

Yup, agree XD especially the bolded. Sometimes, I feel that they should do manga sessions in the universities

Heh. Do you want knowing what a relationship between two tsunderes is like? You should see Tetsuya and Jun from Great Mazinger. And in that instance, the male half of the couple was the most temperamental of them. Jun tried to be patient with him since she knew him since they were children, she knew why he was how he was and behaved like he did and knew how his real self he tried to hide from everybody else, but she also made very clear there were limits to her willingness to put up with crap.

Yeah, the female tsunderes will get patient but it won't last long, and with that you'll see a punch on the head to the other

[sushi.]

I don't know if this is on-topic, but it's silly when NH fans make fanart of a tsundere Hinata. Unless it's AU of course. I just read a doujinshi, lol stopped reading at page 1. I don't really know what to say..but never have I seen so much hypocrisy within the shipping fandom++the anime is trying to make Hinata a Sakura-look-a-like as well. But Sakura is still not the right girl. XD

Edited by sushi., 15 January 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[Jenskott]

Yup, agree XD especially the bolded. Sometimes, I feel that they should do manga sessions in the universities

Heh.

I think it would be enough with people realizing what the foundations of a genre are. Or what is the target public (a friend of mine is a big Power Rangers and Super Sentai shows fan since the early nineties. Often he sees other old fans whining this-or-that season is kiddy. When it happens, he wonders if they are aware of sentai shows are mainly for young kids and teens, even if adults may like them).

I don't know if this is on-topic, but it's silly when NH fans make fanart of a tsundere Hinata. Unless it's AU of course. I just read a doujinshi, lol stopped reading at page 1. I don't really know what to say..but never have I seen so much hypocrisy within the shipping fandom++the anime is trying to make Hinata a Sakura-look-a-like as well. But Sakura is still not the right girl. XD

Yes, it is silly and quite hypocrite. You find fans bashing Sakura for such-and-such, but when they make Hinata or NH fanworks, Hinata gets magically turned into a tsundere or she behaves worse than their fake image of Sakura does. Apparently it is wrong Sakura bosses NAruto around or punches him when he is being stupid, but it is funny and even cute if Hinata does it.

It QUITE suggests their trouble with Sakura is not she is a horrible person or abusive or bad-tempered... but she is the person Naruto loves.

Anyway, yes, I think this is off-topic, and I would pretty like that this topic does not devolve into still another Hinata/NH discussion. I don't think we need another.

So that... More tsunderes:

Lina Inverse from The Slayers - With Lina, the issue is not what things set her off. The issue is what things DON'T set her off. Idiots, perverts, bandits, Mazoku, slugs, her sorceress name (Lina the Pink), jokes about her height, woman hood or chest size (FOR THE GOD'S SAKE, NEVER CALL HER FLAT-CHESTED!), being hungry, getting stolen, Gourry, people threatening Gourry's life... She is a walking, living volcano.

Fa Yuiri from Mobile Suita Zeta Gundam - Fa was Camille's neighbour and childhood friend. Then they got involved in the conflict between Earth and space colonies. Fa is usually a nice girl, but Camille has a knack to piss her off (mainly due to his tendence to be obnoxious). She is also conflicted because thinks Camille loves Four, only. After the end of Gundam Zeta she remained in one of the colonies, looking after Camille.

Misty/Kasumi from Pokemon - Co-leader from the Cerulean City Water Gym, she left her home to explore world, capture and train Water Pokemon and run from her older sisters. During her travels she met Ash and were traveling together for a while. She does not like people comenting disparagingly on her aspect or womanhood, picking on her pokemon or behaving like idiots or perverts. Unfortunately Ash is tactless and pretty dumb.

Kaori Makimura from City Hunter - Her brother and main character Ryo Saeba ran a "sweeper" (a mix of private eye and hitman) agency named City Hunter. When her brother got murdered, she informed Ryo she was his new partner. Several things set her off: someone mistaking her with a man (she is a tomboy), perverts and Ryo. Ryo likes playing dumb and teasing her. Moreover, he is a huge pervert and womanizer. And Kaori is very, *very*, *VERY* jealousy. Her dreaded attacks with one-hundred-ton-weight mallets are legendary. Her and Ryo's "I think he/she likes me, should or should not I try anything?" dance lates the entire series.

Kaoru Kamiya from Rurouni Kenshin - Daughter of a kendo dojo owner and national-champion-level kendoist she tried to run her family business during a period of political upheaval after her father's death when she met Kenshin. Stupidity sets her off. Fortunately for Kenshin, he is more mature than the average shonen manga main character (probably because he IS older), so he seldom gets her mad, especially after the first chapters, and she is calmer than other tsundere listed in this topic.

[Chucky-kun]

Asuna from SAO.

If you think hitting then hugging is weird, she hits then sleeps with, hehehe.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Don't forget, most of the cast of Love Hina are Tsundere and don't have big busts at all.

Although, I do detest how extreme they are, even if it is comedic. Poor Keitaro, dude has the patient of Jesus.

I would like to repeat why Sakura can't possibly be given a Tsundere label anymore, but it's something I've repeated in 3 different threads, so I won't write it in.

Well, long-story short, her outbursts of anger aren't too often and usually have an ok justification for why she's angry - Naruto almost dying, Naruto bugging her - instead of the usual "My love interest is talking to me, but he can't know my feelings, KYAA!"

Er, I mean, she's mellowed out and character development happened. Now she just acts like the eye-rolling woman from the popular saying, "Behind every great men, there's a woman rolling her eyes."

[Jenskott]

Asuna from SAO.

If you think hitting then hugging is weird, she hits then sleeps with, hehehe.

What "SAO" stands for?

I pull my examples of older series because those are the ones I know the best, but I am not so famliarized with newer shows. What she is like?

Don't forget, most of the cast of Love Hina are Tsundere and don't have big busts at all.

Although, I do detest how extreme they are, even if it is comedic. Poor Keitaro, dude has the patient of Jesus.

It has been a while since I read it, but IIRC, Keitaro got in situations where he looked like a pervert, a stalker, a peeping tom, a creep... over five times each day, every day (I still remember that time Naru was taking off her underwear, heard a noise, turned around and saw his head sticking out of the floor...). No wonder they were pretty suspicious from him or prone to think and react badly. Undoubtedly it does not help that he deceived them during their first time meeting (Seriously... Letting them think that he already was a Todai student? He really thought that it was a good idea? He should have known he would get caught sooner or later so he should have explained right away that it was a misunderstanding)

"But those were accidents! And their reactions were too extreme!" you tell (I guess). Well, yes. That is the joke. Either you laugh it off or you dismiss it. If you know it is meant to be comedic I don't get why you give it a second thought.

Look, in a Mazinger-Z scene, Kouji hurled their food at Sayaka. And when I tell "hurled" I meant "shoved violently a plate on her face and then poured hot soup in her cleavage". I found it unfunny. I got it was meant to be comedic but I thought that was too... excesive. However I DO know it was a comedic scene so I don't take it seriously, I don't think about it and I don't use it to judge the characters (right like I don't base my opinion on Homer Simpson on all scenes where he is treating Marge like his caretaker instead of his wife, abusing Bart, neglecting Lisa and Maggie -once he nearly sat on her!- and treating his father like crap). Believe me, if I want thinking Kouji is a jerk -and I do, even if I like him-, I have plenty non-comedic scenes to base my opinion on.

I have no intention of getting in an argument about Love Hina, so I won't talk further about the subject. You can reply if you wish, but most likely I won't read it. Not because I slight you or your opinions -believe me, I intend no offense-, but because otherwise I could get caught in the debate.

However, in case of you are thinking "Oh, he is only a Naru fanboy!" and going to dismiss my argument on those grounds --not telling you are going to do that, but only in case-- let me tell you one thing: I don't care for Naru. I don't care for Keitaro, either. But I call it how it is.

I can not tell I like very much Love Hina, either... I found it alright and funny, but that is it (that is one of the reasons of I don't want get in an argument. Too effort spent on something I don't care much about, don't you think?).

Anyhow, if you think Keitaro has saint-like patience, you should read Maison Ikkoku. ALL people -minus Kyoko. And her dog. And Mr. Ichinose, who barely shows up- in the boarding house spends THE WHOLE TIME mocking Yusaku, taking advantage of him, playing pranks on him... and they REALIZE what they are doing it, they KNOW it is wrong, they KNOW that they are being jerks and they DON'T CARE (one conversation among them: "Oh, we still pick on you", "Yes, we see no reason to stop", "That's right. All boarding house needs a clown").

I would like to repeat why Sakura can't possibly be given a Tsundere label anymore, but it's something I've repeated in 3 different threads, so I won't write it in.

Well, long-story short, her outbursts of anger aren't too often and usually have an ok justification for why she's angry - Naruto almost dying, Naruto bugging her - instead of the usual "My love interest is talking to me, but he can't know my feelings, KYAA!"

Er, I mean, she's mellowed out and character development happened. Now she just acts like the eye-rolling woman from the popular saying, "Behind every great men, there's a woman rolling her eyes."

In fact, all of those traits fit the tsundere trope.

Usually tsunderes go through a character development where they mellow down and learn to be more patient and more open about her feelings.

And they HAVE a justification to be angry. It is always more complex than "He can't know my feelings!". Kaori could express her feelings just fine, but she got angry at Ryo because he stalked their female customers; Sayaka also had no trouble stating Kouji that she loved him, but she got angry because he was teasing her, mocking her and insulting her constantly (in the anime adaptation; in the original manga -the original story-, Kouji was nicer, more considerate and less jerkish; hence, her and Sayaka's relationship was les... violent); Kaoru seldom got angry at Kenshin, but one of those times was because he had dismissed all people who wanted to join her dojo (how she blatantly put it: her dojo needs students to remain open); Half of time Akane got angry at Ranma because HE insulted her or picked on her for no reason; Lina torched Gourry because he constantly picked on all things she was unsure about (and Anime Gourry has an excuse because he was too dumb to realize. Light novel Gourry KNEW what he was doing); Lum had absolutely no trouble making her feelings known to Ataru -and she did so, constantly-, but she got angry because HE could not be sincere about his and because he spent all the time chasing other girls; Kyoko got angry at Yusaku because he allowed everyone walked over him and because in spite of he had told (shouted, actually) he was in love with her, he kept dating Kozue because he had no the guts to explain her that she was only a friend...

In a nutshell: I'm sorry, but Sakura keeps being a tsundere. Getting mellowed down thanks to character development and getting angry at her love interest for justified reasons are tsundere traits and/or things tsunderes do.

[Zatheko]

What "SAO" stands for?

I pull my examples of older series because those are the ones I know the best, but I am not so famliarized with newer shows. What she is like?

Sword Art Online

[Jenskott]

Sword Art Online

Ah. Okay, thank you.

I have been wanting to get in that series for a while, but I don't seem finding time to sit down and watch it.

Sometimes I wonder if at least part of my interest comes from it uses the "Stranger trapped in a strange land" trope than was very common in the eighties (many anime series -Voltron, Shurato, God Mazinger-, films and even games -Super Mario Bros- used it). Anyway I would like watching it...

By the way, the lead couple got married very early on the series, if I am not mistaken? I guess that is a good way of remove the "Will they do or Will they do not?" and "Who will end up with who" debates.

Anyway, I think Louise -Zero no Tsukaima's female lead- was a tsundere, right? I have not watched it so I am not sure, but I think it used to be harsh on the male lead but she gradually mellowed down when he told he loved her?

[Phantom_999]

Yes she was. Here is a whole list of them in media in general. Including anime.

http://tvtropes.org/...p/Main/Tsundere

[ciardha]

There are also the shoujo tsundere, they tend to be less comically violent and almost never are insecure about their femininity- either physical self or gender roles. The relationship with the boy she ends up with either starts as male friend shes been around all her life and just takes a while before she realizes the boy loves her and he's the one she really loves, or a rival/enemy character who is attracted to her but she has either dismissive or negative feelings about. The boy feels the attraction for her long before she does him. In shoujo the line between tomboy and tsundere greatly overlaps, they are almost one and the same, tsundere though tend to have more painful experiences than the strictly tomboy types. (Example- Hime chan of Hime chan no Ribbon is more strictly the tomboy type where Maron of Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne is clearly a tsundere.) A few examples:

Lady Oscar of Rose of Versailles- gets the honors for being the first manga tsundere by about 6 months (Sayaka from Mazinger Z being the first shonen tsundere) you can see the transition from strictly tomboy type girl to tsundere with Lady Oscar. She and Andre have the friends since they were kids type relationship. Andre falls for her when they are both still teenagers, but Lady Oscar crushes on Fersen- a major lady charmer who ends up being Marie Antionette's lover. First Andre, then Lady Oscar grow disgusted with the decadence of the French court while the peasantry starves- and grows increasingly angry and violent. Lady Oscar and Andre are reconciled and become romantic partners. They have a few angry disagreements over the story. Lady Oscar has no real discomfort with being a solider and doesn't think of herself as less of a woman for being one, but she has moments where she wishes she could be free to express that side too, she finally realizes she can have both with Andre. (Spoilers- unfortunately ROV is a tragedy- Lady Oscar doesn't realize it but she is dying of tuberculous, discovering this shortly after she and Andre become romantic partners, but although a tragedy, both Andre and Lady Oscar get heroic deaths on the same day, at the Storming of the Bastille- Andre dies first and Lady Oscar holds him as he dies, then she leds the charge of soldiers who decide to ally with the peasants- she dies while leading the charge. Guess this why I love the story despite it being a tragedy- the two both die heroically)

Tsukushi Makino of Hana Yori Dango- at the beginning she has a very hostile attitude toward Tsukasa Domyouji- deservedly, he's the primary school bully and harasses her- including an infamous early serious sexual harassment scene (which made the eventually relationship somewhat controversial even in Japan) but she never backs down from any battles with him, his hostility flips to attraction because she doesn't ever back down and even physically fights him. He begins to clumsily and stupidly court her, and despite the bad start and the idiotic things he does, she begins to become attracted to him, even helps him stand up to his cold and extremely manipulative mother. She doesn't agree to marry him until he returns from four years away from her in college in New York.

Maron Kusakabe of Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne- she and Chiaki start off a bit of rivals, she comes to like him relatively early though, but their alter-egos of Jeanne and Sinbad think they are on opposite sides. Chiaki/Sinbad realizes though that Maron/Jeanne is being duped by the cleverly sinister Finn Fish and finally gets Maron/Jeanne to see this.

Makoto Kino of Sailor Moon is another example, but not fully developed as such until Naoko Takeuchi's stronger take on the character for the live action show (please ignore the anime charaterization, Takeuchi had no say in the character distortions for that. The manga and the live action limited series have her character work) Makoto at first tolerates Motoki's nerdy courtship with mild annoyance, but when she finds out he knows she's Sailor Jupiter and he gets hurt trying to fight a monster that had hurt her, she falls for him. At Usagi and Mamoru's wedding Makoto catches the boquet and Motoki awkwardly proposes to her and it's clear she says yes. (Motoki is the epitome of "adorkable".)

Phantom, I dislike TV tropes article on tsundere, it's not terribly well written and has quite a few obvious mistakes and overt negative bias to the point of making gross factual errors.

Edited by ciardha, 22 January 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[tricksie]

Ciardha - glad to see you. Had a few manga related questions, but now i'm too tired to remember. Drat. Your name was brought up quite a bit over the last few chapters - about chronology, manga history, japanese culture....

If i remember, i'll post it to your blog on here. nitey nite.

[ciardha]

Ciardha - glad to see you. Had a few manga related questions, but now i'm too tired to remember. Drat. Your name was brought up quite a bit over the last few chapters - about chronology, manga history, japanese culture....

If i remember, i'll post it to your blog on here. nitey nite.

Sure, please do.