62 replies to this topic

[Arrakesh]

I still say Naruto had it worse than Sasuke because no one no matter what deserves to be ignored and treated that badly for something he didn't do and didn't even have a say in. Sure Sasuke witnessed his whole family murdered before him, but at least he knew what love was until his parents were murdered while Naruto never had such a thing and that's one thing you should never deny a child, a loving and caring atmosphere.

Though I agree with you I am going even further. Remember that for the village Naruto was not even a unwated child, he simply was the Kyubi itself. There was no Naruto, only the bijuu.

[Phantom_999]

I see your point, but you are mistaken love by passion. Remember that one of love's greatest statement is to "seek the loved one happiness above your own". This saying means mostly that those who know love can at least get seom confort from the memories of it, while those who have never felt it have nothing to hold on. Just look at the last chapter (544) when Bee tells Kaikage that Naruto has two suns inside him. Naruto only got that once he was able to "talk" with his parents, and eventhough they are long dead, he knows now (and feels it too) how much they loved him; they even sacrificed themselves for him.

Again, I do not see the same applying to Sasuke, especially since his parents didn't trully love him. He was always second best to Itachi. his father never paid him the proper attention untill Itache turned against the clan. Also his father only cared about the Uchiha pride, and his sons were meant to care as much as him (which Itachi didn't obviously). The only one who really loved Sasuke was Itachi, but due to the whole mass murder issue, Sasuke forsake that love and began hating him. It is my belief that Sasuke hates himself far more than he hates anything else, since he was the one who "killed "Itachi, and also spent a decade hating him for now reason at all. This hatred blinded him to the simple true that he cannot have both his father's way and Itachi's way. That's why he is totally lost, or as it was said in another post somewhere, he is completely cukoo now, and makes no sense of anything...

it actually applies to all forms of love not just passion or romance any kind of love taken away will drive someone into their ugly nature Love is the greatest happiness but its's also the greatest pain. plain and simple. so you can never say loving and losing is better than not loving at all because it can make you worse but like I said not all cases are so it depends on the person. I'm just saying that Love IS wonderful but it can sometimes drive people mad and mentally ill. Love is not so simple or predictable as to use that statement. Remember even Naruto swore to take revenge on Nagato for killing Jiraiya and while not as deranged as Sasuke it shows how painful it is to have a loved one murdered or killed and when you know who the killer is You become obsessed with hurting them Naruto just wasn't as outwardly hate fueled as Sasuke but it still counts. one more thing You can't say Sasuke's parents did not love him it was only his father that only obsessed with passing on the Uchiha will and he only did it because he was the head of the clan and it was his responsibility to look after the good of the clan we can't say for certain what their feelings were so that is a baseless assumption I'm sorry to say

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 June 2011 - 01:47 AM.

[Arrakesh]

it actually applies to all forms of love not just passion or romance any kind of love taken away will drive someone into their ugly nature Love is the greatest happiness but its's also the greatest pain. plain and simple. so you can never say loving and losing is better than not loving at all because it can make you worse but like I said not all cases are so it depends on the person. I'm just saying that Love IS wonderful but it can sometimes drive people mad and mentally ill. Love is not so simple or predictable as to use that statement. Remember even Naruto swore to take revenge on Nagato for killing Jiraiya and while not as deranged as Sasuke it shows how painful it is to have a loved one murdered or killed and when you know who the killer is You become obsessed with hurting them Naruto just wasn't as outwardly hate fueled as Sasuke but it still counts. one more thing You can't say Sasuke's parents did not love him it was only his father that only obsessed with passing on the Uchiha will and he only did it because he was the head of the clan and it was his responsibility to look after the good of the clan we can't say for certain what their feelings were so that is a baseless assumption I'm sorry to say

True enough. I only mentioned both parents because somehow his mother seemed submissive. But you may very well be right about it. And believe it or not, I know exactly how terrible loving and losing can be to someone, been there, done that, was cheated on by the way.. Took me a while to get over it. But still, I believe that the sort of prejudice inflicted upon Naruto for over thirteen years is far worse, and more damaging to one self, than just loosing those he loved.

From anger comes hate, from hate comes pain, and pain is the path to the Dark side.

Honestly, I believe I know why Sasuke is so messed up, and it isn't just about him loosing his clan. We know from the flashbacks how much Sasuke wanted to me acknowledge by both his father and his brother. And just when he was beggining to have any attention from his father, the assassinations took place, and by none other than his own brother. Now, no longer can sasuke's father acknowledge him for he died, and no longer Sasuke may look upon Itachi, for he is a traitor. Not even mentioning that Sasuke killed Itachi later on only to find out ITachi was not to blame.

I may be wrong, but to me Sasuke represents the worst kind of person possible. He was shallow and self centered, selfish and spoiled (since he was of the elite clan). Not in a single moment has Sasuke placed others well being above his own (besides a few missions on part I - but that was only in the heat of the battle). Never Sasuke thought about what it meant for Naruto to be acknowledge by him, nor he never thought about how he migh be hurting Sakuras or Ino's feelings. Since day one he only cared about himself, and even though he was beginning to grow out of it as a person, when the choice was presented to him: to follow his revenge and remain selfish or to stay with in Konoha and learn friendship, he gave into selfishness without a second thought.

What is that saying "we reap what we saw" ??

PS. If you see a Uchiha punch him on the face. You may not know why you are punching him, but he will know why he is being punched...

[Phantom_999]

Hmm I suppose that is true Sasuke WAS Spoiled but I don't think he was a bad person until after the massacre he seemed respectful and cheery just was always living in Itachi's shadow

Yeah I've had my share of bad memories with crushes so I feel you right now in fact there's a girl I like but I can't work up the nerve to tell her because i saw her with another guy and wasn't sure if they were just friends or a couple so I've been feeling kinda miserable about it

[Arrakesh]

I liked Obito too. Good Uchihas are hard to come by..

But as they say, the good die young...

[Chivalrysae]

I think Sasuke had it worse. Sure he was popular in school and he was a promising ninja, but he was pretty much a shell. He was tormented enough to cast himself from society. Although Naruto was shunned by the villagers as a child, I kinda thought the 3rd Hokage was kind of his father figure, so to me he was without parents, but not completely alone. Sasuke's love for his brother and his family made his fall even worse. At his age, dealing with his family being slaughtered by his own brother, you can't imagine how messed up that would make someone. And as a young child his entire being was dedicated on revenge.

With Naruto, he never knew that type of pain or loss until he was older. By that time, he was old enough to understand death in the ninja world and he, in some ways, understood the cycle of hatred and vengeance (taught to him by Jiraiya). So as a kid, I feel that loss and the burden of being abandoned in such a way (itachi's betrayal) made Sasuke's childhood a living hell. Although Naruto was mistreated, his childhood was never shrouded in that kind of darkness or pain.

[Arrakesh]

I think Sasuke had it worse. Sure he was popular in school and he was a promising ninja, but he was pretty much a shell. He was tormented enough to cast himself from society. Although Naruto was shunned by the villagers as a child, I kinda thought the 3rd Hokage was kind of his father figure, so to me he was without parents, but not completely alone. Sasuke's love for his brother and his family made his fall even worse. At his age, dealing with his family being slaughtered by his own brother, you can't imagine how messed up that would make someone. And as a young child his entire being was dedicated on revenge.

With Naruto, he never knew that type of pain or loss until he was older. By that time, he was old enough to understand death in the ninja world and he, in some ways, understood the cycle of hatred and vengeance (taught to him by Jiraiya). So as a kid, I feel that loss and the burden of being abandoned in such a way (itachi's betrayal) made Sasuke's childhood a living hell. Although Naruto was mistreated, his childhood was never shrouded in that kind of darkness or pain.

Just one question.. Where did you see the Sandaime acting as a father figure?? His only protection was to prevent people from talking about the kyubi, and allowing him into shinobi school. Other than that, she only checked to see if Naruto was alive. Besides, mistreated is a rather light term to use in this case. He knew prejudice before he knew what is was. People didn't see him as a boy, they only saw him as a monster, and because of the adult's actions, the kids also regarded him as a pariah...

I am not saying who had worse, though I believe it was Naruto. But to underestimate Naruto's pain during thirteen years, is not fair either.

[Greed-Sama]

With Naruto, he never knew that type of pain or loss until he was older. By that time, he was old enough to understand death in the ninja world and he, in some ways, understood the cycle of hatred and vengeance (taught to him by Jiraiya). So as a kid, I feel that loss and the burden of being abandoned in such a way (itachi's betrayal) made Sasuke's childhood a living hell. Although Naruto was mistreated, his childhood was never shrouded in that kind of darkness or pain.

No instead Naruto had to live with people not even thinking he was human, just the beast living inside of him. That is absolutely darkness and pain at least on the same caliber as Sasuke maybe even more. The 3rd did nothing to help him out...nothing.

[Chivalrysae]

The 3rd gave him some guidance and reprimanded him (the painting incident). He also directed Iruka to treat him with more compassion because both of them were technically orphans because of the Kyuubi. When I think of childhood I think of it as ending right about the time he becomes a genin. So that also includes the bond he had with Iruka.

And it's more a personal preference for me. I would much rather have people look at me like a freak and avoid me or mistreat me (something I have the ability to change, whether by finding another place to go, or by changing how they see me) than having my family and entire race wiped out in front of me (something I cannot change and undo). My family is very important to me and I know I would be mentally jacked up if they killed. Whereas people that dislike me, I just ignore them and move on.

Edited by Chivalrysae, 30 June 2011 - 06:40 PM.

[Phantom_999]

BECAUSE you have your family if you had no one like Naruto it wouldn't be that easy

[Greed-Sama]

The 3rd gave him some guidance and reprimanded him (the painting incident). He also directed Iruka to treat him with more compassion because both of them were technically orphans because of the Kyuubi. When I think of childhood I think of it as ending right about the time he becomes a genin. So that also includes the bond he had with Iruka.

And it's more a personal preference for me. I would much rather have people look at me like a freak and avoid me or mistreat me (something I have the ability to change, whether by finding another place to go, or by changing how they see me) than having my family and entire race wiped out in front of me (something I cannot change and undo). My family is very important to me and I know I would be mentally jacked up if they killed. Whereas people that dislike me, I just ignore them and move on.

So two differences the 3rd make in Naruto's 12 years of life prior.

As for your personal preference, try going back 100 years in some places where those of other races were looked at something less than human, and ask them if it was easy to change or cope with. Do you think it was easy for people to just pick up and move somewhere else? Do you think it was easy for Naruto containing the Kyuubi to pick up and move somewhere else? The answer is no, it took a long time to fix and not everyone got to experience the modern era of "equality" Those of other races didn't get the luxury of "ignoring" them especially when they lived close to the more dominant race and the things they needed to survive off of, were provided off of said race. And as for ignoring people who dislike you, that's fine and dandy when only a few or even many dislike you, not when your entire village despises you.

Edited by TheOmegaMan, 30 June 2011 - 07:15 PM.

[Chivalrysae]

BECAUSE you have your family if you had no one like Naruto it wouldn't be that easy

My personal preference was inclusive of that fact. If I had to choose between being put in either situation I would pick Naruto's. Not having bonds and desiring them would not torment me as much as having every bond I had taken away from me. Including the strongest bond I ever had. Even Naruto admits that he never understood the pain Sasuke went through until after Jiraiya passed away. And after Jiraiya's death, you could see the toll it took on him. Both of them went through a great deal of pain in their childhood, I just think Sasuke's slightly edges out Naruto's. It's really close, which makes this a good discussion topic.

He was ignored and the other kids were told not to play with him. To me, losing bonds is more painful than not being able to make them.

As for your personal preference, try going back 100 years in some places where those of other races were looked at something less than human, and ask them if it was easy to change or cope with. Do you think it was easy for people to just pick up and move somewhere else? Do you think it was easy for Naruto containing the Kyuubi to pick up and move somewhere else?

Umm...going back 100 years in our world doesn't equate to Naruto's ninja world. For one, 100 years ago, no one could run up trees or summon giant animals. So it's no impossible that he would be able to run away and find a village (does not have to be a ninja village) with no knowledge of him. Kushina was from another village and she was able to live in Konoha. Konoha kept his having a Bijuu a secret, so anyone oustide the village would not know as well. And there were others in Naruto's world that lived on their own and not in a village or city. All I'm saying is he had the opportunity to change his surroundings (leaving, or changing Konoha's perception of him -- which he ends up doing little by little). Sasuke, wherever he goes, the guilt of not being strong enough to protect his parents, and the betrayal from his brother will always be with him.

[Greed-Sama]

Umm...going back 100 years in our world doesn't equate to Naruto's ninja world. For one, 100 years ago, no one could run up trees or summon giant animals. So it's no impossible that he would be able to run away and find a village (does not have to be a ninja village) with no knowledge of him. Kushina was from another village and she was able to live in Konoha. Konoha kept his having a Bijuu a secret, so anyone oustide the village would not know as well. And there were others in Naruto's world that lived on their own and not in a village or city. All I'm saying is he had the opportunity to change his surroundings (leaving, or changing Konoha's perception of him -- which he ends up doing little by little). Sasuke, wherever he goes, the guilt of not being strong enough to protect his parents, and the betrayal from his brother will always be with him.

You forgot that the Kyuubi was placed him, and that the 3rd, council and Danzou would not have allowed him to leave. They would have sent the ANBU to collect him. Simple as that.

As for the 100 years back, it was a simple metaphor talking about how horrible it is for people to see you as something else besides human.

[CloudMountainJuror]

So two differences the 3rd make in Naruto's 12 years of life prior.

As for your personal preference, try going back 100 years in some places where those of other races were looked at something less than human, and ask them if it was easy to change or cope with. Do you think it was easy for people to just pick up and move somewhere else? Do you think it was easy for Naruto containing the Kyuubi to pick up and move somewhere else? The answer is no, it took a long time to fix and not everyone got to experience the modern era of "equality" Those of other races didn't get the luxury of "ignoring" them especially when they lived close to the more dominant race and the things they needed to survive off of, were provided off of said race. And as for ignoring people who dislike you, that's fine and dandy when only a few or even many dislike you, not when your entire village despises you.

Ok, seriously, you can't debate his personal preference, because he and he alone knows his personal preference and what choice he would make.

[Phantom_999]

My personal preference was inclusive of that fact. If I had to choose between being put in either situation I would pick Naruto's. Not having bonds and desiring them would not torment me as much as having every bond I had taken away from me. Including the strongest bond I ever had. Even Naruto admits that he never understood the pain Sasuke went through until after Jiraiya passed away. And after Jiraiya's death, you could see the toll it took on him. Both of them went through a great deal of pain in their childhood, I just think Sasuke's slightly edges out Naruto's. It's really close, which makes this a good discussion topic.

He was ignored and the other kids were told not to play with him. To me, losing bonds is more painful than not being able to make them.



Umm...going back 100 years in our world doesn't equate to Naruto's ninja world. For one, 100 years ago, no one could run up trees or summon giant animals. So it's no impossible that he would be able to run away and find a village (does not have to be a ninja village) with no knowledge of him. Kushina was from another village and she was able to live in Konoha. Konoha kept his having a Bijuu a secret, so anyone oustide the village would not know as well. And there were others in Naruto's world that lived on their own and not in a village or city. All I'm saying is he had the opportunity to change his surroundings (leaving, or changing Konoha's perception of him -- which he ends up doing little by little). Sasuke, wherever he goes, the guilt of not being strong enough to protect his parents, and the betrayal from his brother will always be with him.

REALLY? You prefer people to treat you like crap, don't know why they do it, and have no one ton support or comfort you?

[Yoshimoya]

Naruto. He had it worse, and has it worst. He's just so strong about everything that it seems fine, but really, all of this crap he's going through would have taken down ANYONE by now. Naruto is the greatest character ever. period.

Sasuke just caves in to his demise.

[Arrakesh]

I understand why some people say they prefer to never have connections than losing it. If this was all about Narruto, I would agree in a heart beat that Sasuke had worse. But Naruto's main issue is not the lack of connections, though it is disturbing not to know one's parents and history. Ask any orphaned kid and ask them about it, especially those that were left out without any hint of origin and as a baby.

But even worse than that is the prejudice Naruto had to face. Some people here are mistaking being mistreated with prejudice. Prejudice is the worst kind of hatred, and if you have any doubts about it ask any german jewish survivor from WWII. I am sure they can tell you how nice they had. The only difference from Naruto is that Sandaime prevented the village from taking actions, but the feeling, the hatred, the prejudice was still there. You don't have to go too far to find another example, one in US history. Imagine if you were a black person living in a city full of Klu Klux Klan. It would be a walk in the park, wouldn't it?

The reason some people believe Sasuke's had worse is only because they have strong family connections, and they can imagine how much the loss of such connections would hurt them. They can relate to Sasuke on this point. However, due to lack of experience on other areas, they lack the knowledge or expertise to understand how deep true prejudice goes, and since they never suffered any kind of it, even a light one, they just cannot relate to how horrible this truth is...

[Chivalrysae]

REALLY? You prefer people to treat you like crap, don't know why they do it, and have no one ton support or comfort you?

Do I want people to treat me like crap? No. Who does? But if I were given the choice between what Sasuke went through and what Naruto went through I'd rather be in Naruto's shoes. I've seen what dramatizing events such as the Uchiha Massacre can have on people...some people just snap. Mostly the hatred/animosity for Naruto was from the adults. The kids were just told to stay away and did not know why. In the classroom environment he got to interact with the other kids and I didn't feel they had a hatred towards him. They just kept their distance because they didn't know him, and they had been warned as kids. So it wasn't the "entire" village. You could tell that the younger generation was much easier to warm up to Naruto because they did not know he had the Kyuubi in him. I know when I was a kid, I paid attention to the other kids and rarely cared or interacted with the parents.

I grew up in a very traditional Asian family and their comforting or showing emotions wasn't really in the parental guidelines. It was very much like how Sasuke's father was with him. Just because he was strict and had high expectations, does not mean there is no father-to-son love. The cultures as far as emotion are vastly different. So I wouldn't disregard any type of bonds he may have with his father. And I got the impression Sasuke was a mama's boy, so I could see there being a strong connection with his mom as well. With Naruto and the 3rd personally checked in on Naruto (even though Naruto didn't know). As a leader of a village, he took time to make sure Naruto was taken care of. Watching the early years, I always had the impression that the 3rd had faith that Naruto would become the hero his father dreamed he would become.

Edited by Chivalrysae, 01 July 2011 - 04:50 AM.

[Arrakesh]

As a leader of a village, he took time to make sure Naruto was taken care of. Watching the early years, I always had the impression that the 3rd had faith that Naruto would become the hero his father dreamed he would become.

Just a comment regarding this part of your post. I was re-reading the first chapters from the manga, and every time Sandaime talked about Naruto, he said how much of an idiot naruto was. I don't think he had much faith at all. He even tells Iruka that he doesn't believe Naruto will be acknowledge by the village because of the kyubi. And once Naruto is told about the kyubi, Sarutobi's fear is only focus on the return of the kyubi, not on naruto well being.

I am not saying that he didn't watch over, he must have, at least in some degree. But it feels like it was more out of duty and obligation to Minato, than any real affection to Naruto..

[Chivalrysae]

Just a comment regarding this part of your post. I was re-reading the first chapters from the manga, and every time Sandaime talked about Naruto, he said how much of an idiot naruto was. I don't think he had much faith at all. He even tells Iruka that he doesn't believe Naruto will be acknowledge by the village because of the kyuubi. And once Naruto is told about the kyubi, Sarutobi's fear is only focus on the return of the kyubi, not on naruto well being.

I am not saying that he didn't watch over, he must have, at least in some degree. But it feels like it was more out of duty and obligation to Minato, than any real affection to Naruto..

Well, to be honest...when I look back at the first few episodes of Naruto even I think he was an idiot. And he is my favorite character in the series. I remember the first time I saw episode one I quit watching Naruto until after my friend convinced me to watched a few more episodes. So I wouldn't call that a lack of faith. When someone does something stupid, it kind of deserves that response. Sakura calls him an idiot all the time, even more so.

He does tell Iruka he doesn't believe Naruto will be acknowledge by the village. When he runs around playing pranks and vandalizing the hokage monuments, I'd be in total agreement. Sarutobi knew that Naruto needed a bond, which is why he chose Iruka and talked to him about forming a bond with Naruto because they were both oprhans. If he really didn't care about Naruto as a person he would not have asked for Iruka's compassion.

And with the Kyuubi, as Hokage, even if he cares about Naruto the security of Konoha is paramount. It's like that with every other nation with a Bijuu. The Raikage would send people out to retrieve Bee and he always kept him "trapped" in the village. It doesn't mean he does not care about Bee. Would Sarutobi do things differently if he was not Hokage? I don't know. But at least he did not send the ANBU to recover him.

Like I said before, it's a personal preference. Everyone copes with stress or trauma differently. I cope better with what Naruto had to go through. I know it's not easy to detach yourself from what happened to Sasuke. I really think Sasuke suffered from Survivor's Guilt. It's something people in the military and survivors of the Holocaust have experienced. It's not the fact that a bond was broken, but the way it was broken. There's a difference between a break-up, divorce, or getting in a fight and going your separate ways. I'm not very good with explaining it, but here's an article fox news put out regarding the military. Survivor's Guilt. It's a form of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

This will be my last post on the topic. I was just wanting to share my opinion and a brief reasoning. I wasn't expecting a full on debate. I'm not looking to changing anyone's opinion because I really don't know what their life experiences are. They are what define who you are and determine how you handle varying situations.