62 replies to this topic

[Nick Soapdish]

Do we really now? Maybe I'm forgetful, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall a single chapter where Sakura ever gave Sasuke such a heartfelt smile, lol.

I only remember that smile twice and both were for Naruto.

[SkyStrider]

Not so. You say that Sakura was simply using Naruto, but there is nothing in the manga that suggests that Sakura knew Naruto was going to rescue Sasuke before she approached him, or that her request was anything as uncaring as that. As you said, all Sakura knew was that Tsunade was sending a team. She told Naruto that she had tried and failed to get Sasuke to stay. She said that she believed that Naruto was the only one that could do it, not that Naruto was her best shot. In short, she approached Naruto because she believed in his ability to succeed where she failed, not because she wanted to use him. That stance is pure conjecture.

Uh, read the exact quote of Chapter 183 again:

"Naruto, I Beg you! Please, please bring Sasuke back... I couldn't do it... I couldn't stop him! The only person who can probably save Sasuke-kun now is you... Naruto... Only you..."

Nowhere does she say come out and say "I believe you can bring him back". Heck, by saying "probably", she's actually somewhat doubting he can do it in the first place! There's no "absolute belief" from Sakura that Naruto can bring him back here. This is nothing more than a simple matter of Sakura acknowledging that Naruto was in fact her best and probably last resort due to two things:

A: She recognizes that Sasuke cares more about Naruto than he does about anyone else, especially her (as she sees perfectly in the hospital scene where he doesn't say a word to her [even as she's cutting and peeling apples for him to eat only to see him knock the plate out of her hands when she offers it to him], but all of a sudden comes alive and starts screaming his lungs out the moment he sees Naruto)

B: Naruto, unlike her, has already proven that he has the guts and the power to actually fight toe-to-toe with Sasuke (as proven in the hospital roof scene)

So in her mind, (point A) + (point B ) = (Naruto is my best and last shot to convince Sasuke or force him back). And her statement recognizing he's "probably" the only one who can bring him back (as opposed to the popularly held belief of her saying "I believe in you to bring him back") reflects this. Again, an example of someone (Sakura) seeing someone else (Naruto) primarily as the means to an end (a.k.a. using them, albeit indeliberately).

And how do you figure that she could possibly know Tsunade was sending a team at that exact moment in time, and yet somehow not know Naruto was going to be on it? Tsunade herself basically ordered (without actually "ordering") Shikamaru to specifically take Naruto along. The fact that Sakura came at that exact moment shows that she was quite familiar with Tsunade's plans, given that she couldn't have possibly known the team would be departing at that moment without Tsunade telling her. Wouldn't logic then tell you that Tsunade would also tell her who she was SURE would be on that team (Shikamaru and Naruto), if for nothing more than to reassure her the situation was being dealt with?

In sum, there is no logically possible way that Sakura could have been as informed of Tsunade's plans as she was without knowing that Naruto was specifically asked to be on the team (especially considering how close both he and she were to the situation). It simply doesn't add up.

Again, that's just an interpretation. One far removed from what the actual dialogue suggests. The dialogue states that she was placing her faith and trust in Naruto because she believed in him, not that she was using him as an expendable tool. I don't understand your reasoning; how can you take such a literal stance on a chapter like 181, and then be so subjective in regards to other chapters? That makes no sense. How can you determine what words are to be taken at face value, and what aren't? Short answer is: you can't.

Subjective? There is absolutely nothing subjective about it! She NEVER states her "trust" or "belief" in Naruto in that scene! NEVER! She never comes out and says "I believe in you"! In fact, as I pointed out earlier, she actually uses a word ("probably") that suggests she doubts he can do it! Her dialogue, especially considering the lack of her specifically stating "trust" or "belief", does not in any way show any "absolute belief" in Naruto. All it is is her acknowledgment that he's the best and last resort she has left to get Sasuke back with her. In fact, the only person who ever states any true belief in Naruto in that scene is Rock Lee, assuring Sakura everything will be alright.

My reasoning never changed stances. All I did throughout my entire analysis was check and note exactly what was said (instead of assuming what was said out of my memory), weigh the situations given the circumstances and the actions leading up to them, note the impact the situations had on the characters, and make an evaluation. Is it a colder and less forgiving evaluation of the relationship between Naruto and Sakura than a NaruSaku supporter might wish (including myself)? Perhaps. But is it one that includes my very best efforts to take the evidence for exactly what it is? Absolutely.

It's impossible for you to make any such assertion with any accurancy here. The only fact here is that Sasuke displayed disgust at her views, and she thought that maybe she should try being nicer to Naruto. Adding your own conclusion as fact is a blatant fallacy.

Naruto has needed little outside help to change anyone's views of him. Furthermore, Sakura changing her views of Naruto is NOT an extension of her 'being nicer to him'. Throughout the manga Sasuke has never told Sakura to change or improve her opinion of Naruto, which is what Nick's post is concerning. Sakura even came to the conclusion to try to be nicer to Naruto (which she didn't at first, even) of her own accord. So while Sasuke's input was definitely an eye-opener to her own attitude, it does nothing for her opinion of Naruto.

As I'll state again, the very fact that Sakura would bother to try and wonder if Naruto was disgusted by her insults is an improvement on her relationship with Naruto. She already knew everything about his situation that she would ever know as of Part 1 in the very beginning. She went in insulting him about being an orphan knowing this perfectly well. Yet, it's only after Sasuke tells her HIS disgust over her views that she bothers to reflect on her attitude and thoughts of Naruto. She had nothing but the most negative, coldhearted thoughts about Naruto before then, and every action of hers reflected that. But after that scene, we suddenly see her care about Naruto's feelings for the first time, and then even get (secretly) excited at a prank Naruto's pulling. And from then, she at least begins to (albeit reluctantly) recognize Naruto's actions. To see this change happening at that specific point in time, and then say that Sasuke's words weren't the trigger to it is, to me, logic I cannot understand.

What exactly are you arguing? Believe it or not, this does nothing to counter Nick's post at all. Nick asserts that the development of Sakura and Naruto's relationship as a friendship was largely developed in Part 1, and is already in place by Part 2. NOT that Sakura cared more about Naruto than Sasuke at that point.

I was arguing that at that specific point in time, Sakura's perception of Naruto's (and actually everyone else's) importance in her life in comparison to Sasuke was so small that she apparently wouldn't mind abandoning him for one of his (Naruto's) greatest enemies in order to be with Sasuke. Bascially, that Naruto (at that point in time) matters so little to Sakura that she would actually contemplate betraying him for his greatest enemy. And yet, despite this, Nick is arguing that their mutual relationship was not only solidly in place, but that it had already gone through most of it's development, especially in terms of Sakura towards Naruto! Do you honestly think this sounds like the type of thinking or attitude anyone should have towards a friend, let alone a person you may come to love?!?!? In my mind, if you have "friends" like those, you don't need enemies.

I highly disagree with many of your points and assumptions, I believe you've missed the mark fairly often in your spin on things. However, if you wish for that to be discussed, you'd do better making a new thread. For me to respond to it here would be fundamentally off-topic, because as you should be able to see, most of your post does not even apply to the topic at hand.

Therefore, if you'd like to submit a rebuttal to Nick's topic, I advise you come again. Even if what you state was "the sad truth" or "absolute fact" as you like to claim, you're on an entirely different subject. A classic case of barking up the wrong tree.

Well, you have your opinion, and that's fine. Personally, I think this entire reasoning that Naruto was already someone Sakura considered a dear friend at the PoaL scene is very much far from the truth, and one that unnecessarily gives way too much undeserved credit to Sakura at that point. But hey, my opinion, and you can disagree. And by virtue of most of my post arguing the fact that Sakura personally did not recognize Naruto as a dear person in her life before the PoaL scene, it has very much to do with Nick's post and the topic at hand, given that it argues an idea that is the direct converse of what Nick is claiming. It is the exact same subject.

SkyStrider

[Silent Shinobi]

I only remember that smile twice and both were for Naruto.

Thanks Nick. Glad to see I'm not crazy.

Hey, speaking of that, I could be wrong, but did not both those smiles take place in Part 1? XD

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Thanks Nick. Glad to see I'm not crazy.

Hey, speaking of that, I could be wrong, but did not both those smiles take place in Part 1? XD

OK, so I was wrong. :shamefulcry0js: Damn, I feel ashamed that I screwed up like that.

So anyhow, guys, I think both were in Part 1. Not sure when though...

But I think most of Sakura's smiles for Sasuke sure weren't like the ones she gave Naruto. Man, I suck.

Bryon

[Nick Soapdish]

As I'll state again, the very fact that Sakura would bother to try and wonder if Naruto was disgusted by her insults is an improvement on her relationship with Naruto. She already knew everything about his situation that she would ever know as of Part 1 in the very beginning. She went in insulting him about being an orphan knowing this perfectly well. Yet, it's only after Sasuke tells her HIS disgust over her views that she bothers to reflect on her attitude and thoughts of Naruto. She had nothing but the most negative, coldhearted thoughts about Naruto before then, and every action of hers reflected that. But after that scene, we suddenly see her care about Naruto's feelings for the first time, and then even get (secretly) excited at a prank Naruto's pulling. And from then, she at least begins to (albeit reluctantly) recognize Naruto's actions. To see this change happening at that specific point in time, and then say that Sasuke's words weren't the trigger to it is, to me, logic I cannot understand.

You're arguing that the few panels that we saw of Sakura earlier in the chapter were a definitive portrait of her character at the time? That she never even was secretly amused by Naruto's pranks in the past, even if Ino was the target (not that we even knew a character named Ino existed at the time)? You're taking a huge leap of faith there.

Being secretly amused by a prank (while publicly condemning him for it) is one thing. She didn't show Naruto any respect until he earned it with his actions by showing some prowess with kage bunshin, bravery in recovering his headband, or determination when he asked her for help in the tree-climbing exercise.

It's possible that Sasuke's words about the loneliness that someone without parents feels gave her more empathy about Naruto's position so she wasn't so quick to rag on him and actually give him a chance. It's also possible that they had nothing to do with her later feelings of respect for him and that they were entirely due to Naruto's own actions. Personally, I think that his words did make a difference, but I don't think that they were as crucial as you seem to believe.

I was arguing that at that specific point in time, Sakura's perception of Naruto's (and actually everyone else's) importance in her life in comparison to Sasuke was so small that she apparently wouldn't mind abandoning him for one of his (Naruto's) greatest enemies in order to be with Sasuke. Bascially, that Naruto (at that point in time) matters so little to Sakura that she would actually contemplate betraying him for his greatest enemy. And yet, despite this, Nick is arguing that their mutual relationship was not only solidly in place, but that it had already gone through most of it's development, especially in terms of Sakura towards Naruto! Do you honestly think this sounds like the type of thinking or attitude anyone should have towards a friend, let alone a person you may come to love?!?!? In my mind, if you have "friends" like those, you don't need enemies.

Your argument continues to depend on the assertation that Sakura's relationship with her family was also completely insignificant and that they aren't even as important to her as friends, something I have difficulty believing. Hence, I don't take Sakura's words as complete gospel at that moment.

Well, you have your opinion, and that's fine. Personally, I think this entire reasoning that Naruto was already someone Sakura considered a dear friend at the PoaL scene is very much far from the truth, and one that unnecessarily gives way too much undeserved credit to Sakura at that point. But hey, my opinion, and you can disagree. And by virtue of most of my post arguing the fact that Sakura personally did not recognize Naruto as a dear person in her life before the PoaL scene has very much to do with Nick's post and the topic at hand, given that it argues an idea that is the direct converse of what Nick is claiming. It is the exact same subject.

I didn't bother going as far as the PoaL scene because I thought that I'd proven my point long before. Unless you can come up with something other than taking Sakura's words in chapter 181 literally to heart and deprecating her feelings for everybody in the village, including her parents and Ino whom she'd reconciled with, I'm going to have difficulty seeing it as proven that she didn't consider him a friend.

Just a chapter before, she betrayed Sasuke's trust and sought out Naruto's comfort regarding the curse seal. And while his words ultimately didn't comfort her to trust in Sasuke, she did consider him as being close enough to confide in. I don't think that she is the manipulative kitten that you call her by saying that she was doing it only for the benefit of covering Sasuke's tracks and then later only trying to manipulate Naruto into bringing him back. If she was that person, I believe that his words at the PoaL wouldn't have meant anything to her and she'd still feel distrust to Naruto and would've blamed him for his failure instead.

And I don't consider her surprise that Naruto was the one to beat Gaara is significant of a lack of trust in his ability or him. It means that she thought that Sasuke was stronger than Naruto which isn't the same as calling Naruto weak. And considering that she'd seen Sasuke facing off and faring pretty well against Gaara in the arena and Naruto only looking confused when she saw him facing Gaara, neither gave her much reason to think otherwise.

OK, so I was wrong. :shamefulcry0js: Damn, I feel ashamed that I screwed up like that.

So anyhow, guys, I think both were in Part 1. Not sure when though...

But I think most of Sakura's smiles for Sasuke sure weren't like the ones she gave Naruto. Man, I suck.

Bryon

Chapter 43 for the 10th question and chapter 144 when she finds out that Naruto was the one that saved her from Gaara. At least, that's the two examples that I'm thinking of.

[SkyStrider]

I'm not exactly sure where to begin since it seems like you're determined to take the worst possible view of Sakura's motives in part one with regard to Naruto and the most expansive with regard to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.

Not at all. All I'm doing is trying to take her comments for exactly what they are in that situation, and what impact those actions had on her later actions and development. And all I see in Part 1 (up until the promise of a lifetime) is Sakura, despite all her moments in recognizing Naruto's achievements, refusing to form a constant, two-way bond of appreciation, understanding and friendship with Naruto for the sake of forming such a bond with Sasuke. And then I see Sakura willingly recognizing Naruto for the person he is (at the PoaL), and from then forward putting forth every honest effort she is capable of in forming such a bond with Naruto.

In short, I see NaruSaku as a predominantly one-way ship until one specific moment (the PoaL), after which it started to develop into the equally mutual bond it is right now.

I'm not even sure that I want to since I think that Magus, Byron, and Silent have done a fairly good job and I don't know how to convince you to stop reading so much into Sakura's intentions when it means the worst for Naruto and so little when it means well for him.

I read into each situation the same way, and then see what lasting impact they had. And from my reading/analysis, I cannot help but believe that for most of Part 1, the intentions that most lastingly impacted Sakura's views and thoughts of the NaruSaku relationship were her negative ones, with the positive ones generally not having any lasting impact beyond the moment they occured in. And I also firmly believe that since the PoaL, virtually all of the intentions that have defined her part of the NaruSaku relationship were positive.

I'll just note that I wasn't attempting to argue that Naruto and Sasuke were equal in her heart or estimation, at least prior to the PoaL. I only argued that she did regard him as a friend, even if she may have not admitted it out loud. Your main rebuttal to that point seems to be chapter 183 which assumes that she doesn't have any friends or close relationships in Konoha except for Sasuke.

I know what you argued, Nick; that Sakura had already begun to see Naruto as a dear friend before the PoaL scene. My rebuttal is centered around Chapter 181 because it is the latest and clearest example of how Sakura truly "perceives" the importance of Naruto (among others) in her life (before the PoaL). My entire argument in regards to this is that Sakura could not possibly have considered Naruto a dear friend to her at that point if she was willing to even contemplate (among other things) the thought of abandoning/betraying him and the village for his greatest enemy just so she could be with Sasuke. It's not exactly the betrayal itself I'm focusing on here per se(though it is quite powerful in and of itself), it's the idea that she would consider Naruto to ultimately be so unimportant to her that she would even consider such a betrayal or abandonment at all. Or for that matter, would even consider the thought that even with Naruto (and everyone else) still in her life, she'd still be as alone as Sasuke is at that point (implying that Naruto and the others being there or not wouldn't affect her loneliness one bit). In my opinion, a person simply cannot consider someone to matter this little to them and still see them as a true friend (let alone a close friend). A true friend never thinks that lowly of a person they're friends with, and they never, under any circumstances, even consider betraying that person. Both of those ideas are the exact opposite of what friendship is.

I think that the PoaL was a very important event in their relationship that pushed it forward. I just don't think it's what started it. It wouldn't have meant much to Sakura if he wasn't already an important person to her that she trusted.

I never said that's where the relationship itself started. I'm saying that that is the point where Sakura willingly chose to open up her side of it. It was already a relationship (albeit a predominantly one-way friendship from Naruto to Sakura), but it had yet to be a two-way relationship with mutual understanding and equal investment on both sides. In short, it only became such a friendship from Sakura's point of view after that scene. And she was driven to return that friendship on her own free will after seeing how loyal Naruto (a person she had hardly cared for and was hardly ever warm or caring towards) was to her, especially in contrast to how much Sasuke (a person who was the center of her world and to whom she'd basically poured her whole heart and soul towards) lacked in that regard. THAT'S why it meant so much to her: it wasn't a matter of her reconfirming something she already believed was true, it was a matter of her finally realizing and accepting a truth she'd made herself blind to all along, at a time when she needed it the most. And their relationship went through most of it's development AFTER she'd realized this truth.

SkyStrider

[Nick Soapdish]

In short, I see NaruSaku as a predominantly one-way ship until one specific moment (the PoaL), after which it started to develop into the equally mutual bond it is right now.
I read into each situation the same way, and then see what lasting impact they had. And from my reading/analysis, I cannot help but believe that for most of Part 1, the intentions that most lastingly impacted Sakura's views and thoughts of the NaruSaku relationship were her negative ones, with the positive ones generally not having any lasting impact beyond the moment they occured in. And I also firmly believe that since the PoaL, virtually all of the intentions that have defined her part of the NaruSaku relationship were positive.

So the fact that she has three flashbacks (including during the PoaL) to those earlier incidents doesn't suggest that they've stuck in her mind?

I know what you argued, Nick; that Sakura had already begun to see Naruto as a dear friend before the PoaL scene. My rebuttal is centered around Chapter 181 because it is the latest and clearest example of how Sakura truly "perceives" the importance of Naruto (among others) in her life (before the PoaL). My entire argument in regards to this is that Sakura could not possibly have considered Naruto a dear friend to her at that point if she was willing to even contemplate (among other things) the thought of abandoning/betraying him and the village for his greatest enemy just so she could be with Sasuke. It's not exactly the betrayal itself I'm focusing on here per se(though it is quite powerful in and of itself), it's the idea that she would consider Naruto to ultimately be so unimportant to her that she would even consider such a betrayal or abandonment at all. Or for that matter, would even consider the thought that even with Naruto (and everyone else) still in her life, she'd still be as alone as Sasuke is at that point (implying that Naruto and the others being there or not wouldn't affect her loneliness one bit). In my opinion, a person simply cannot consider someone to matter this little to them and still see them as a true friend (let alone a close friend). A true friend never thinks that lowly of a person they're friends with, and they never, under any circumstances, even consider betraying that person. Both of those ideas are the exact opposite of what friendship is.

So, just to be clear on this, are you stating that Sakura had nobody in the village that she was close with or felt warm or caring about? This is what I keep on bringing up 181 for and hoping to get an answer.

I don't think that if Sakura was that kind of person then (and apparently 183), that she'd be able to be the kind of person that she was in 236 and now. You're arguing that virtually nothing had any impact upon her (including Sasuke's words back in chapter 3) until PoaL. If I believed that was the case and that Sakura was still that blind, self-centered, selfish girl, I'd never have become a NaruSaku fan. Even back in chapter 43, she's willing to sabotage Sasuke's dreams to protect Naruto's - not that she thinks out the consequences of her intended actions and consciously makes the choice. (If she had thought about it, she might do the same, not because she's protecting Naruto, but to keep the team together because of Kakashi's words about the important of teammates.) But she shows that Sasuke isn't the sun that her world revolves around because she doesn't even think about him in that moment.

[MagusKyros]

Why would she turn to Naruto? BECAUSE (as I stated before multiple times), HE WAS THE ONLY HOPE SHE HAD LEFT TO GET BACK SASUKE!!!! Can you honestly not wrap your head around the idea that Sakura first went to Naruto at the gate only because she saw him as the means to an end?!?!? She did NOT see him as a friend equal in stature to Sasuke, and she damn sure wasn't worried about what would happen to him in that mission when she asked him to bring Sasuke back.

Sakura believed that Naruto could stop Sasuke from going to the sound. She also knew that he was damn well powerful to possibly do it as well. As to whether Sakura viewed him as a friend or not, well she showed quite a bit of support and concern about him in the chunnin exam.

And you sure seem to love playing up that "date" Sakura had with Naruto (and her confessions about Orochimaru) as an example of how she started to "trust him". But apparently, you seem to conveniently forget the context of that conversation. For example, have you completely forgotten that she'd already gone to Kakashi with her concerns, and gotten nothing more than assurances that things would be fine? Or have you completely forgotten the fact that Sakura only asked Naruto out on that "date" after he SPECIFICALLY told her (in an angry tone, no less) "Don't Interfere!"? As we all know, he was specifically talking about her getting in the way of him fighting Sasuke, since he thought that's what Sasuke wanted. And furthermore, she KNEW that the two were fighting to injure/kill, given that Sasuke was using Chidori (am assassination jutsu) and Naruto's Rasengan was apparently just as powerful. So, knowing that, we can see her "date" with Naruto wasn't a matter of trusting him against Sasuke's will (or heaven forbid, trusting him over Kakashi). It was simply a matter of trying to protect Sasuke by telling Naruto that his actions stemmed from something she felt Naruto simply didn't understand. After all, she was choosing between keeping Sasuke's wishes or preventing his increasingly likely serious injury/death at Naruto's hands due to a misunderstanding. Are you really surprised she chose the latter? I'm not.

She never went to Kakashi. He himself came to the hospital roof and broke up Naruto and Sasuke's fight, in which both departed afterwards, leaving just her and Kakashi. She actually went to Naruto on that 'date' of theirs and spilled all the beans.

Her learning any of that (including Naruto's past) has absolutely NOTHING to do with her realization that Naruto had always been there for her. And it's that realization that's the turning point which brought about her relationship with Naruto in Part 2, and the ONLY reason Naruto and Sakura have the type of relationship they now share at THIS POINT IN TIME. So consider this truth:

Without the combination of the show of empathy Naruto gave, the "promise of a lifetime", and the realization that it immediately brought her during Chapter 183, Naruto and Sakura's relationship during Part II would simply not be on the level of closeness and understanding it currently is.

Right before Sasuke even left, Naruto was already a person she could count and rely on; maybe not to the extent that she did at the promise of a lifetime, but it was there and was going to keep growing.

I don't see what's so hard to understand or accept about this. Heck, even the NaruSaku manifesto on this site (which I mostly agree with but has some big points I strongly object to) recognizes this as truth.
Sasuke's feelings towards Sakura have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. Whether SasuSaku would have had any development or not if he were to stay is absolutely moot at this point, seeing how at that point in time, Naruto and everyone else already weren't even on Sakura's radar screen compared to Sasuke anyhow. So as to why you brought this up, I haven't the slightest idea.

Well, considering you believe that Sasuke has such an influence on Sakura's life, why wouldn't his relationship with Sakura be brought up? Sakura has been a growing character from the beginning. Her view of the world was changing. The Chunnin Exam was full of her development.

The databook says that it's because of her realization of Naruto always being there for her that her true development begins. Never does it say that Naruto's "existance" (since that's what you obviously mean) is the source of her development. Otherwise, she'd have started her development from the moment she met Naruto, or failing that, any moment after he was put into her team. But the databook SPECIFICALLY points out THAT MOMENT (the promise of a lifetime and her realization of his empathy and loyalty) as her turning point. There was absolutely nothing inevitable about it. Basically, to use a football analogy, Naruto, in regards to a relationship with Sakura, was being shut out of the game until he threw up the mother of all "hail mary"'s at a time when he least meant to, and lo and behold, completed it for a touchdown. And since then, he hasn't stopped getting into the end zone.

Well, she technically did start developing ever since Team 7 became a team.

You're kidding me, right? Do you honestly mean to say that the only reason she ever came to focus on Sasuke and ignore Naruto was because of the cursed seal?!?!? You can't be serious here. Have you forgotten the bell test, where Kakashi specifically berated her for only focusing on Sasuke and ignoring Naruto in the process?

That's really not surprising. Why would she act differently? At that point she thought she was better than Naruto and kept saying she was in love with Sasuke. She never changed that attitude until after the Wave Country arc.

Have you forgotten the Wave arc, when she focused only on Sasuke's well-being throughout that entire fight on the bridge, and at the end of it, ran to tend Sasuke, all the while acting as if Naruto wasn't even there?

No, because she never did forget Naruto, and even counted on him and Sasuke to defeat Haku, and she ran to Sasuke because he obviously wasn't okay when he was the only one from both groups missing in that scenario and Naruto wasn't saying anything to her when she asked where he was, not how he was.

Have you forgotten the moring after their return, when she dropped Naruto like a bag of potatoes in order to try and work on "teamwork" with just her and Sasuke (and notably rejects Naruto rudely when he says she can join him)? Sakura already had nearly all of her focus on Sasuke from way back BEFORE he got any stinkin' cursed seal; in fact, she had it right at the very beginning of the manga! And it was only when he left her and she saw Naruto's incredible show of loyalty to her that she finally stopped.

SkyStrider

I looked through the chapters, and I don't see anywhere where it says Naruto asked Sakura if he can join her for 'teamwork' exercise. The only time she dropped him like a 'bag of potatoes' was when Naruto agreed with Konohamaru's assumption that she was his girlfriend, right in front of her.

Before then, she didn't focus nearly as much on Sasuke as she did until the cursed seal deal.

[SkyStrider]

You're arguing that the few panels that we saw of Sakura earlier in the chapter were a definitive portrait of her character at the time? That she never even was secretly amused by Naruto's pranks in the past, even if Ino was the target (not that we even knew a character named Ino existed at the time)? You're taking a huge leap of faith there.

Being secretly amused by a prank (while publicly condemning him for it) is one thing. She didn't show Naruto any respect until he earned it with his actions by showing some prowess with kage bunshin, bravery in recovering his headband, or determination when he asked her for help in the tree-climbing exercise.

Not really a huge leap of faith, given how utterly ruthless she is with him before that scene. If she had no problem gladly taking take that type of low blow at him, I'd find it extremely unlikely that she'd be amused at ANYTHING he'd done, no matter the target. In fact, I'd find the leap of faith to be that she indeed had been amused in the past, or that she'd thought any sort of sympathetic thought towards him, given how low her views of him were. And all those things, from the amusement to the respect she gives later on, are quite a bit more favorable than her thoughts and actions towards him in the beginning.

It's possible that Sasuke's words about the loneliness that someone without parents feels gave her more empathy about Naruto's position so she wasn't so quick to rag on him and actually give him a chance. It's also possible that they had nothing to do with her later feelings of respect for him and that they were entirely due to Naruto's own actions.

Personally, I think that his words did make a difference, but I don't think that they were as crucial as you seem to believe.

Fair enough. I just seem to see a clear improvement between her thoughts before Sasuke's words and after them, with a couple panels specifically focusing on her reflections that maybe she should be nicer from then on. Therefore, I see a clear cause and effect relationship that triggered the NaruSaku relationship's initially slow development towards something more favorable from Sakura's point of view (given how Naruto, for his part, was already trying to be her friend).

Your argument continues to depend on the assertation that Sakura's relationship with her family was also completely insignificant and that they aren't even as important to her as friends, something I have difficulty believing. Hence, I don't take Sakura's words as complete gospel at that moment.

Of course Sakura's relationship with her family isn't insignificant. They're the ones who feed her and give her a place to sleep, after all. What my argument centers on is not the fact that I think Sakura's friends and family were completely insignificant to her, but that at that point in time, she thought them insignificant enough to the point that she'd even entertain the notion of abandoning them and commit treason against them for the sake of one boy. To do that would require her to have an incredibly low opinion or appreciation of their importance in her life, especially in comparison to Sasuke. Whether or not her words are 100% truth at that time isn't the key issue I'm getting at here; the key issue I'm dealing with is the priorities and perceptions she had that allowed her to even think something like that in the first place, let alone actually say it.

I didn't bother going as far as the PoaL scene because I thought that I'd proven my point long before. Unless you can come up with something other than taking Sakura's words in chapter 181 literally to heart and deprecating her feelings for everybody in the village, including her parents and Ino whom she'd reconciled with, I'm going to have difficulty seeing it as proven that she didn't consider him a friend.

I already have, in my discussions of how little lasting impact those positive moments you brought up had in the way she approached her dealings Naruto, which still were lukewarm at best until the PoaL. The feelings reflected in those moments you mention were all exclusive to the immediate moment they happened in and had a minimal impact on her mental approach at handling her side of NaruSaku, especially given how despite all of those moments, it took her all the way until the PoaL to finally acquire a constant awareness and appreciation of who he is and how much he matters in her life.

Just a chapter before, she betrayed Sasuke's trust and sought out Naruto's comfort regarding the curse seal. And while his words ultimately didn't comfort her to trust in Sasuke, she did consider him as being close enough to confide in. I don't think that she is the manipulative b*tch that you call her by saying that she was doing it only for the benefit of covering Sasuke's tracks and then later only trying to manipulate Naruto into bringing him back. If she was that person, I believe that his words at the PoaL wouldn't have meant anything to her and she'd still feel distrust to Naruto and would've blamed him for his failure instead.

I'm sorry if I misled you a bit (especially with that whole "used" thing). It's not a matter of her being a "manipulative b*tch" (because that's not what she was at all), it's a matter of her selfishly putting her desires above everything else, with minimal thought or care to the cost. Yes, she confided in Naruto. But that happened only after she saw Naruto and Sasuke fighting with an intent to hurt/kill each other with their biggest moves, each of which were highly dangerous. She saw that Sasuke had provoked a battle which could have resulted in his getting severely hurt, and she also saw that he was acting like he did with the curse seal. Also, given how Naruto specifically told her not to interfere in an angry tone, she knew that Naruto honestly thought Sasuke truly wanted that sort of fight. So, given all of this and given how she also knew that Naruto was the only person NOT to know about the cursed seal, it stands to reason that Sakura confided in him in an attempt to prevent Sasuke getting seriously hurt due to a misunderstanding (remember, she did tell Naruto she had something to tell him BEFORE asking him on the date). Can you imagine what she'd feel like if Naruto stayed ignorant of the curse seal, and accidentally killed Sasuke in a rematch with no one looking? She'd be devastated, and would also put a good part of the blame on herself for not making Naruto understand why the fight took place, thus perhaps preventing it. I'm sure she thought of it that way too. Hence, the so-called date. It wasn't about covering for Sasuke, it was about avoiding a misunderstanding whose consequences she'd guiltily and painfully bear for the rest of her life.

And I also don't think she went to "mainpulate" Naruto to bring back Sasuke. That's waaaaaay to harsh on her, and not fair to her. What I think happened there was that she thought that Naruto was her absolute last resort in getting Sasuke back with her. and accordingly, went to beg like a lost soul. However, I do believe that at that point in time, she was primarily seeing Naruto not as a friend, but as a means to an end she desired. That virtually all of his value to her at that point was not his companionship with her, but his companionship with SASUKE. And that through his companionship with Sasuke, he would get her what she wanted. She wasn't going there because she felt like he was a good enough friend to confide a mission to, but because she, having seen what he was capable of and how close Sasuke was to him, thought him to be the only hope left to convince Sasuke to stay or, failing that, be forced home. It wasn't an evil, manipulative train of thought brought about by a desire to willingly sacrifice Naruto to get Sasuke back, just somewhat selfish reasoning fueled by a misguided perception of Naruto's personal importance to her. The latter still has a good chance of being dispelled by reason and generosity (as it indeed happened in the PoaL), whereas the former does not. That's why I think her tears at realizing Naruto's loyalty to her also dealt with her realization at how misguided her thoughts of their relationship were on BOTH sides. And that in turn infused her with the compassion and appreciation necessary to see that Naruto's failure had hurt his heart every bit as much as it did hers, if not more so. Therefore, instead of blaming him for Sasuke's escape, she recognized his effort and consoled him, soothing his soul.

SkyStrider

[Nick Soapdish]

Of course Sakura's relationship with her family isn't insignificant. They're the ones who feed her and give her a place to sleep, after all. What my argument centers on is not the fact that I think Sakura's friends and family were completely insignificant to her, but that at that point in time, she thought them insignificant enough to the point that she'd even entertain the notion of abandoning them and commit treason against them for the sake of one boy. To do that would require her to have an incredibly low opinion or appreciation of their importance in her life, especially in comparison to Sasuke. Whether or not her words are 100% truth at that time isn't the key issue I'm getting at here; the key issue I'm dealing with is the priorities and perceptions she had that allowed her to even think something like that in the first place, let alone actually say it.

I don't really have a problem with a 12-year old girl saying something that she doesn't mean in a desperate moment. I don't think that it truly means that she cared so little for the other so-called important people in her life that she would truly abandon them and side against them with somebody that wants to kill them.

Y'know, you're still about a post behind me so maybe I should slow down and let you catch up. Except I've already skipped ahead and talked about some other portions of your post so I'm not completely bowing out yet. But pretty much, I'm still waiting for you to say that you think that Sakura thinks that she has no relationships in Konoha that she considers to be worthwhile.

That's ignoring the growth that Sakura made when she recognized Lee's strength and determination and tried to emulate it. It's ignoring the growth of Sakura when she and Ino made up. It's ignoring pretty much all of Sakura's growth in part one and compressing it to a single point in time.

I already have, in my discussions of how little lasting impact those positive moments you brought up had in the way she approached her dealings Naruto, which still were lukewarm at best until the PoaL. The feelings reflected in those moments you mention were all exclusive to the immediate moment they happened in and had a minimal impact on her mental approach at handling her side of NaruSaku, especially given how despite all of those moments, it took her all the way until the PoaL to finally acquire a constant awareness and appreciation of who he is and how much he matters in her life.

And I already mentioned that the moments made enough of an impression upon her for her to flashback to them on two occasions prior to the PoaL.

I'm sorry if I misled you a bit (especially with that whole "used" thing). It's not a matter of her being a "manipulative kitten" (because that's not what she was at all), it's a matter of her selfishly putting her desires above everything else, with minimal thought or care to the cost. Yes, she confided in Naruto. But that happened only after she saw Naruto and Sasuke fighting with an intent to hurt/kill each other with their biggest moves, each of which were highly dangerous. She saw that Sasuke had provoked a battle which could have resulted in his getting severely hurt, and she also saw that he was acting like he did with the curse seal. Also, given how Naruto specifically told her not to interfere in an angry tone, she knew that Naruto honestly thought Sasuke truly wanted that sort of fight. So, given all of this and given how she also knew that Naruto was the only person NOT to know about the cursed seal, it stands to reason that Sakura confided in him in an attempt to prevent Sasuke getting seriously hurt due to a misunderstanding (remember, she did tell Naruto she had something to tell him BEFORE asking him on the date). Can you imagine what she'd feel like if Naruto stayed ignorant of the curse seal, and accidentally killed Sasuke in a rematch with no one looking? She'd be devastated, and would also put a good part of the blame on herself for not making Naruto understand why the fight took place, thus perhaps preventing it. I'm sure she thought of it that way too. Hence, the so-called date. It wasn't about covering for Sasuke, it was about avoiding a misunderstanding whose consequences she'd guiltily and painfully bear for the rest of her life.

I'm not seeing a difference between what you just said and "manipulative kitten". She's not being deliberately callous of other people's feelings, but I don't think that's a requirement for the term.

Maybe what you're stuck up on is that Naruto and Sakura weren't openly super friendly. There wasn't a moment where she specifically said that she considered him a friend, but I thought there were plenty of examples where she acted like she thought he was a friend and treated him as such.

Still, the character that you're describing as Sakura, I simply don't recognize.

[SkyStrider]

So the fact that she has three flashbacks (including during the PoaL) to those earlier incidents doesn't suggest that they've stuck in her mind?

In terms of how she deals with Naruto, those flashbacks don't seem to stick with her all that much, given how reluctant she is to actually do something to show appreciation or acknowledgement of his friendship. Again, her actions amount to a lukewarm relationship at best (and even less so from her POV). This is a far cry from what we have with them now, and I'm saying that transformation mostly happened at the PoaL and afterwards.

So, just to be clear on this, are you stating that Sakura had nobody in the village that she was close with or felt warm or caring about? This is what I keep on bringing up 181 for and hoping to get an answer.

First of all, Sakura did not consider everyone to be of equal importance to her in Part 1. Her dealings with, say, Ino as opposed to her dealings with Lee prove that. She's willing to deliver treats to one, and hardly ever sees the other off-duty. That's not what I think she meant at all in mentioning friends and family. What she meant was that she thought even the most important friend or family member she had wouldn't cure her of loneliness at Sasuke's departure, and therefore none of the others would either.

But anyway, it wasn't a matter of "no importance at all" (for they did have some), it was a matter of considering the importance of those connections to be relatively very low, hence an idea of betraying them that should normally never have been there in the first place. I grant you that it may be due to being unappreciative, and not something she likely would have stuck to given time to think. But still, I do not believe we can see one ever have such a low perception of a person's worth and still say we consider them a "close friend" of that person (and certainly not to the point of saying that they'd already achieved a level anywhere near as close to that person as Sakura is with Naruto in Part II). Does Sakura care for people? Yes. But did she have a misconceived (or ignorant) view of their worth to her? Certainly. Otherwise, she wouldn't be telling Sasuke that she would be as alone as him despite her friends and family, and she certainly would never even think of betrayal. Even a 12-year old like Sakura, especially given her education, knows that thoughts of abandonment and betrayal are not to be taken lightly and dismissed easily. Therefore, I don't either.

I don't think that if Sakura was that kind of person then (and apparently 183), that she'd be able to be the kind of person that she was in 236 and now. You're arguing that virtually nothing had any impact upon her (including Sasuke's words back in chapter 3) until PoaL. If I believed that was the case and that Sakura was still that blind, self-centered, selfish girl, I'd never have become a NaruSaku fan. Even back in chapter 43, she's willing to sabotage Sasuke's dreams to protect Naruto's - not that she thinks out the consequences of her intended actions and consciously makes the choice. (If she had thought about it, she might do the same, not because she's protecting Naruto, but to keep the team together because of Kakashi's words about the important of teammates.) But she shows that Sasuke isn't the sun that her world revolves around because she doesn't even think about him in that moment.

I'm not saying Sakura stayed static in her development. And I certainly agree that I wouldn't be a NaruSaku fan if she was still that blind, self-centered, selfish girl she was back in the beginning. In fact, the big reason why I love her now (and prefer her with Naruto) is because she's completely changed from that. She changed during Part 1, yes. I'm not disputing that. But she was still blind enough to have as low an opinion of her friends/family members' worth to warrant thinking she'd be alone even with them or to even contemplate betrayal. And I simply think that the friendship she has with Naruto now is so close that she wouldn't have even thought to say what she did in 181 if she'd been anywhere as close to him then. And furthermore, I see the origins of her voluntary desire to have the deeper relationship with Naruto she has now at the PoaL, not at any other point before.

SkyStrider

[Dash]

I've never seen anyone take that particular part of Sakura's speech in 181 so literally...I'll stay away from the LAP war, though I will say I agree more with Nick's essay. I do see some of SkyStrider's points, except:

But she was still blind enough to have as low an opinion of her friends/family members' worth to warrant thinking she'd be alone even with them or to even contemplate betrayal.

Sakura was a twelve-year old girl whose first crush/love was likely leaving her life forever - how rational do you suppose she was at the time? Maybe it's me, but I don't quite see the value in absorbing her last-ditch efforts to make Sasuke stay as a representation of her feelings about her family and friends (or her willingness to kill for Sasuke, as she also mentions). And like you say, the present Sakura wouldn't have even considered herself as being alone with her friends/family or "betraying"them - that's a good example of what happens when kids mature and grow up.

[SkyStrider]

I don't really have a problem with a 12-year old girl saying something that she doesn't mean in a desperate moment. I don't think that it truly means that she cared so little for the other so-called important people in her life that she would truly abandon them and side against them with somebody that wants to kill them.

The fact as to whether or not she truly means her words (or would stick by them to the end) is of minimal importance here. What is important is the perceptions she has that lead her to even consider this train of thought, let alone say it out loud. If she thought she was anywhere as close to Naruto at 181 as she is in Part II (like you claim to think she had), she never would have entertained this thought, let alone say it out loud. In fact, she'd be downright angry at herself for thinking it.

Y'know, you're still about a post behind me so maybe I should slow down and let you catch up. Except I've already skipped ahead and talked about some other portions of your post so I'm not completely bowing out yet. But pretty much, I'm still waiting for you to say that you think that Sakura thinks that she has no relationships in Konoha that she considers to be worthwhile.

That's ignoring the growth that Sakura made when she recognized Lee's strength and determination and tried to emulate it. It's ignoring the growth of Sakura when she and Ino made up. It's ignoring pretty much all of Sakura's growth in part one and compressing it to a single point in time.

I'm not ignoring her growth. Really, Sakura's ignoring her own growth. She grew, for certain. But she didn't feel that growth to where she could feel that someone else in her life could help her conquer her loneliness in Sasuke's absence. She had grown, and she had treated people better to where they'd gotten close to her. All of this is true. But IN HER MIND, Sakura still didn't think they'd gotten close enough (or that she'd gotten close enough to them) to where they could be important enough to stop her from thinking that she'd be lonely regardless of their presence. Or even close enough to prevent her from thinking of betrayal. She had grown closer to them, much like she had grown closer to Naruto. But it was only after this scene that she would come to realize just how much, and would always remember it. In contrast, the most fundamental building block of her friendship with Naruto in Part 2 is a constant awareness of his value as a person in her life. If she had had this type of constant awareness of Naruto's worth as a friend in 181, she would have easily seen that he was capable of helping her with lonelieness, and so she would have never even thought of saying what she did.

I'm not seeing a difference between what you just said and "manipulative b*tch". She's not being deliberately callous of other people's feelings, but I don't think that's a requirement for the term.

Maybe what you're stuck up on is that Naruto and Sakura weren't openly super friendly. There wasn't a moment where she specifically said that she considered him a friend, but I thought there were plenty of examples where she acted like she thought he was a friend and treated him as such.

Still, the character that you're describing as Sakura, I simply don't recognize.

Huh? Callousness of the feelings of another is a basic requirement of manipulation! Or at least, the type of heartless, deliberate manipulation a "b*tch" would engage in. If Sakura had been a "manipulative b*tch", like you say I claimed she was, she would have known and understood perfectly well that Naruto would likely be injured in pursuit of Sasuke, and yet would have coldly and deliberately disregarded that risk in order to get what she wanted. Also, she would have come with the carefully mapped out plan of using certain actions to make him feel how exactly how she wanted him to feel in order to control him. And furthermore, she would have resolved to completely ignore his feelings or anything he said, and would have only had ears for his acceptance.

As we know, this isn't what happened at all. She certainly didn't make a deliberatly calculated decision to send Naruto to injury and possible death; in her desperation to get him to help her, she simply honestly forgot to consider the risks he'd face! She certainly wasn't using her words, sobs, and tears in a carefully planned effort to make him her puppet thorugh directing his emotions; she basically went there to beg like a lost soul, basically praying to the gods above that he'd help her! She certainly didn't shut herself from his feelings; on the contrary, it was her reception and understanding of these feelings he displayed that filled her with the resolve to form a closer bond with him as soon as she could! Do I think she saw him primarily as the means to an end? Yes. But just as importantly, I believe this view was based on a misunderstanding of what he meant to her. If she had been a "manipulative b*tch", this view would instead have been based on a calculated, premeditated, and deliberate intention of never valuing him for anything more than for how he could benefit her.

There is a stark difference here. One is brought about by ignorance and blindness, and can be corrected by revealed truths to where an enlightened person comes to appreciate the other as more than a means to an end. The other is a hopeless case of a callous string-puller who knows exactly what they're doing, why they're doing it, and yet insist on maintaining their inconsiderate views no matter what. Sadly, Sakura was at one time the former. But even more fortunately, she has never, ever been the latter.

SkyStrider

[SkyStrider]

She never went to Kakashi. He himself came to the hospital roof and broke up Naruto and Sasuke's fight, in which both departed afterwards, leaving just her and Kakashi. She actually went to Naruto on that 'date' of theirs and spilled all the beans.

She went to Kakashi at the Chuunin exams when it first cropped up, and was furthermore reassured by him even as late as the hospital roof fight.

Right before Sasuke even left, Naruto was already a person she could count and rely on; maybe not to the extent that she did at the promise of a lifetime, but it was there and was going to keep growing.

No. Otherwise, we wouldn't have seen her realization of "He's always helped me." If she had been constantly aware of Naruto in that way before then, there would have been no need for her to think that thought in that scene.

Well, considering you believe that Sasuke has such an influence on Sakura's life, why wouldn't his relationship with Sakura be brought up? Sakura has been a growing character from the beginning. Her view of the world was changing. The Chunnin Exam was full of her development.

It doesn't matter if it would have been brought up or not. Why? Because bringing it up wouldn't have made a difference as to Sakura's views towards Naruto. If she had voluntarily started thinking about Naruto as a potential boyfriend at that point, then yes, SasuSaku development would matter. But at that point, even with no SasuSaku development in sight, Naruto already was failing to show up on her radar anyway. SasuSaku development wouldn't have made anything worse, because from Sakura's POV, there was nothing to make worse in the first place!

That's really not surprising. Why would she act differently? At that point she thought she was better than Naruto and kept saying she was in love with Sasuke. She never changed that attitude until after the Wave Country arc.

Didn't you just get through telling me that you thought the cursed seal was the reason she focused on Sasuke? And now you're saying that there's no reason why she wouldn't act differently at the start (when she ignored Naruto to focus on Sasuke in the bell test)? So which one is it?

I looked through the chapters, and I don't see anywhere where it says Naruto asked Sakura if he can join her for 'teamwork' exercise. The only time she dropped him like a 'bag of potatoes' was when Naruto agreed with Konohamaru's assumption that she was his girlfriend, right in front of her.

Read Chapter 34 again. Notice how the moment Sasuke mentions going home, she immediately runs off to ask to train with him, leaving Naruto alone? Or how she's obvious in her anger as she walks away ignoring Naruto when he then tells her that she can train with him?

If that's not called dropping someone, I'd like to know what is.

SkyStrider

[Nick Soapdish]

In terms of how she deals with Naruto, those flashbacks don't seem to stick with her all that much, given how reluctant she is to actually do something to show appreciation or acknowledgement of his friendship. Again, her actions amount to a lukewarm relationship at best (and even less so from her POV). This is a far cry from what we have with them now, and I'm saying that transformation mostly happened at the PoaL and afterwards.

You sound like you're moving the goal posts.

First, you say that none of the moments that she had with Naruto made any lasting impression upon her or acted upon her future interactions. Now, you're saying that they didn't other than when we specifically see her flashbacks of Naruto's growth. They're important enough that they visibly influence her own actions multiple times and those aren't the only times that she shows awareness or appreciation of Naruto so I tend to think that they had more of an impact.

For one of those flashbacks, she didn't think about Sasuke at all and had no problem forgetting about his ambitions in the tenth question. And later, despite her disbelief, she wasn't disappointed to find that Naruto had saved her and even looked pleased.

First of all, Sakura did not consider everyone to be of equal importance to her in Part 1. Her dealings with, say, Ino as opposed to her dealings with Lee prove that. She's willing to deliver treats to one, and hardly ever sees the other off-duty. That's not what I think she meant at all in mentioning friends and family. What she meant was that she thought even the most important friend or family member she had wouldn't cure her of loneliness at Sasuke's departure, and therefore none of the others would either.

But anyway, it wasn't a matter of "no importance at all" (for they did have some), it was a matter of considering the importance of those connections to be relatively very low, hence an idea of betraying them that should normally never have been there in the first place. I grant you that it may be due to being unappreciative, and not something she likely would have stuck to given time to think. But still, I do not believe we can see one ever have such a low perception of a person's worth and still say we consider them a "close friend" of that person (and certainly not to the point of saying that they'd already achieved a level anywhere near as close to that person as Sakura is with Naruto in Part II). Does Sakura care for people? Yes. But did she have a misconceived (or ignorant) view of their worth to her? Certainly. Otherwise, she wouldn't be telling Sasuke that she would be as alone as him despite her friends and family, and she certainly would never even think of betrayal. Even a 12-year old like Sakura, especially given her education, knows that thoughts of abandonment and betrayal are not to be taken lightly and dismissed easily. Therefore, I don't either.

I didn't say that she was as close as she is now in part two. But I think the bulk of the work in their relationship was in part one, prior to Sasuke's departure.

I'm not saying Sakura stayed static in her development. And I certainly agree that I wouldn't be a NaruSaku fan if she was still that blind, self-centered, selfish girl she was back in the beginning. In fact, the big reason why I love her now (and prefer her with Naruto) is because she's completely changed from that. She changed during Part 1, yes. I'm not disputing that. But she was still blind enough to have as low an opinion of her friends/family members' worth to warrant thinking she'd be alone even with them or to even contemplate betrayal. And I simply think that the friendship she has with Naruto now is so close that she wouldn't have even thought to say what she did in 181 if she'd been anywhere as close to him then. And furthermore, I see the origins of her voluntary desire to have the deeper relationship with Naruto she has now at the PoaL, not at any other point before.

If this is all about a voluntary desire to have a deeper relationship with Naruto, I'll concede the point now and advise you that you've wasted about three pages of debate on extraneous things.

I'm not sure if she had consciously considered Naruto a good friend and she certainly hadn't recognized all of what he's done for her. But I do think that her treatment of him and trust in him had developed so that she was acting as though he was a friend.

The fact as to whether or not she truly means her words (or would stick by them to the end) is of minimal importance here. What is important is the perceptions she has that lead her to even consider this train of thought, let alone say it out loud. If she thought she was anywhere as close to Naruto at 181 as she is in Part II (like you claim to think she had), she never would have entertained this thought, let alone say it out loud. In fact, she'd be downright angry at herself for thinking it.

I'm still saying that she considered Naruto to be a true friend at that point and I'm still looking for you to say that she didn't think that her own parents were important enough to her that she'd betray them and hook up with somebody that wanted them dead. You're coming close, but seem to be dancing around that declaration.

As for my own part, I'm not too concerned by her saying it. When me and my sisters were at about that age, we said some fairly unpleasant things to each other and probably thought worse things. I knew that we didn't mean it and I'm fairly confident that they knew as well. It's just something that slips out at the heat of the moment, particularly when you're young.

I just don't place the same significance on her words in chapter 181. (This probably summarizes our whole debate. )

Huh? Callousness of the feelings of another is a basic requirement of manipulation! Or at least, the type of heartless, deliberate manipulation a "kitten" would engage in. If Sakura had been a "manipulative kitten", like you say I claimed she was, she would have known and understood perfectly well that Naruto would likely be injured in pursuit of Sasuke, and yet would have coldly and deliberately disregarded that risk in order to get what she wanted. Also, she would have come with the carefully mapped out plan of using certain actions to make him feel how exactly how she wanted him to feel in order to control him. And furthermore, she would have resolved to completely ignore his feelings or anything he said, and would have only had ears for his acceptance.

As we know, this isn't what happened at all. She certainly didn't make a deliberatly calculated decision to send Naruto to injury and possible death; in her desperation to get him to help her, she simply honestly forgot to consider the risks he'd face! She certainly wasn't using her words, sobs, and tears in a carefully planned effort to make him her puppet thorugh directing his emotions; she basically went there to beg like a lost soul, basically praying to the gods above that he'd help her! She certainly didn't shut herself from his feelings; on the contrary, it was her reception and understanding of these feelings he displayed that filled her with the resolve to form a closer bond with him as soon as she could! Do I think she saw him primarily as the means to an end? Yes. But just as importantly, I believe this view was based on a misunderstanding of what he meant to her. If she had been a "manipulative kitten", this view would instead have been based on a calculated, premeditated, and deliberate intention of never valuing him for anything more than for how he could benefit her.

There is a stark difference here. One is brought about by ignorance and blindness, and can be corrected by revealed truths to where an enlightened person comes to appreciate the other as more than a means to an end. The other is a hopeless case of a callous string-puller who knows exactly what they're doing, why they're doing it, and yet insist on maintaining their inconsiderate views no matter what. Sadly, Sakura was at one time the former. But even more fortunately, she has never, ever been the latter.

I didn't say that your view didn't mean that she wasn't being callous of the feelings of others, only that she wasn't being deliberately callous. I think that you can be manipulative even unconsciously and the scenario that you've described is pretty much that.

Like I said before, the difference in our positions is that you take her words in chapter 181 as much more heartfelt than I. You sound like you're saying that they're almost close friends prior to that point, but that she just isn't willing to accept it and because of that is willing to devalue that not-quite friendship as well as her relationships with Ino and her parents.

I, on the other hand, think that she really does consider Naruto a friend at that point, even if she hasn't admitted it to herself. Stating that her decision to leave Konoha disproves that friendship doesn't stop with just that one, it disproves her valuation of every relationship that she's had with Konoha. Even if you don't think that she thinks those friendships are worth anything, if you consider her offer to be even semi-serious, she's pledging to throw away their lives as well. I can't sync up that interpretation of Sakura to the one in part two ... or for that matter, most of part one.

[MagusKyros]

She went to Kakashi at the Chuunin exams when it first cropped up, and was furthermore reassured by him even as late as the hospital roof fight.

Kakashi was already there everytime Sakura was around. I don't remember a time when Sakura actually went searching for him.

No. Otherwise, we wouldn't have seen her realization of "He's always helped me." If she had been constantly aware of Naruto in that way before then, there would have been no need for her to think that thought in that scene.

Naruto was still the driving force of Team 7. His rivalry of Sasuke forced both themselves to drive, and both Sasuke and Naruto influenced Sakura to exceed.

It doesn't matter if it would have been brought up or not. Why? Because bringing it up wouldn't have made a difference as to Sakura's views towards Naruto. If she had voluntarily started thinking about Naruto as a potential boyfriend at that point, then yes, SasuSaku development would matter. But at that point, even with no SasuSaku development in sight, Naruto already was failing to show up on her radar anyway. SasuSaku development wouldn't have made anything worse, because from Sakura's POV, there was nothing to make worse in the first place!

No, from Sakura's PoV, it was already getting bad. It' why she went to Naruto after the hospital scene when Sasuke was acting like an ass. How Sasuke treats her would obviously have a lot of effect on how she would view him. When someone treats you coldly, you go seek comfort with someone warm.

Didn't you just get through telling me that you thought the cursed seal was the reason she focused on Sasuke? And now you're saying that there's no reason why she wouldn't act differently at the start (when she ignored Naruto to focus on Sasuke in the bell test)? So which one is it?

No. I was answering your question in regards to the bell test. She wouldn't act any differently than how she appeared first in the series. Wave Country later changed all that, and while she still thought about Sasuke, she would at least have some thoughts about Naruto as well.

When Sasuke got the cursed seal, she was more concentrated on Sasuke's situation than anybody else. The only time she wasn't was in the prelims, but even then there were still some moments where that's all she concentrated about. She didn't turn back until she found out Sasuke was okay from Kakashi, but right after she went back to worrying about him when he wasn't in the hospital; thinking that Orochimaru might've taken him away.

Read Chapter 34 again. Notice how the moment Sasuke mentions going home, she immediately runs off to ask to train with him, leaving Naruto alone? Or how she's obvious in her anger as she walks away ignoring Naruto when he then tells her that she can train with him?

If that's not called dropping someone, I'd like to know what is.

SkyStrider

lol, I'd be brooding to if someone told me that I was even less of a ninja than someone who I thought was inferior to me.

[SkyStrider]

You sound like you're moving the goal posts.

First, you say that none of the moments that she had with Naruto made any lasting impression upon her or acted upon her future interactions. Now, you're saying that they didn't other than when we specifically see her flashbacks of Naruto's growth. They're important enough that they visibly influence her own actions multiple times and those aren't the only times that she shows awareness or appreciation of Naruto so I tend to think that they had more of an impact.

For one of those flashbacks, she didn't think about Sasuke at all and had no problem forgetting about his ambitions in the tenth question. And later, despite her disbelief, she wasn't disappointed to find that Naruto had saved her and even looked pleased.

I'm not moving the goal posts one bit. What I said was that those moments she had with Naruto had little lasting impresssion, and were mostly centered in one moment in time. This is a far cry from the "constant" impression we see Naruto having on her now. I'm not interested in flashes in the pan. I'm interested in consistency. This consistency is what she has in Part II that she never had for most of Part I. And I'm saying that she only got this consistent view at the PoaL.

And they still don't affect her actions all that much, at least not in regards to how she treats him directly. Yes, she exclaims that if feels great that he beat Kiba. But does she go and congratulate him on it? No. Yes, she reflects on Naruto saving her. But does she ever get off her butt and actually go thank him for it? No. Yes, she's willing to tell him Sasuke's secret against his wishes. But does she ever do this BEFORE she realizes that Naruto could possibly kill Sasuke (in the hospital fight)? No. All in all, Sakura's direct actions towards Naruto speak loudest of all. It's easy to acknowledge someone from afar, or think you're getting closer from afar. But unless you actually go and show THAT person you mean what you feel, your feelings mean little. And compared to showing constant warmth and care towards that person (like Sakura clearly shows Naruto in Part II, what with healing his arm, offering to feed him ramen, and pledging to save Sasuke for him), those previous actions are, in relative terms, so small they are close to having no worth at all.

I didn't say that she was as close as she is now in part two. But I think the bulk of the work in their relationship was in part one, prior to Sasuke's departure.

Huh? How can both of these statements be true? To be able to say that the "bulk" of the work in their relationship happened prior to Sasuke's departure, she would had HAD to have been as close to Naruto as she is in Part II! You said it yourself: "the relationship depends on the perceptions and actions of two." And there is a stark difference in Sakura's views and actions before Sasuke's departure, and afterwards. And I believe that difference (from lukewarm to so-close-they-might-be-mistaken-for-a-couple) came about at and after the PoaL, and not before.

If this is all about a voluntary desire to have a deeper relationship with Naruto, I'll concede the point now and advise you that you've wasted about three pages of debate on extraneous things.

I'm not sure if she had consciously considered Naruto a good friend and she certainly hadn't recognized all of what he's done for her. But I do think that her treatment of him and trust in him had developed so that she was acting as though he was a friend.

That "voluntary desire" is the crux of my entire point! It is the very basis of a close, two-way relationship, especially one of the depth that Naruto and Sakura have in Part II! You can't have anywhere close to the type of advanced friendship that Naruto and Sakura have in Part II unless you have both understanding and commitment from both sides! And that means that for Sakura to ever become anywhere as close to Naruto as she is now, she first has to appreciate his worth in her life and has to willingly commit herself to being his friend! And that extends to my later points that if she had made such a commitment to Naruto before the PaoL, she would have never even considered thinking ANYTHING she said in 181, let alone actually saying it. Instead, she would have utterly berated herself for thinking it after dismissing it right away. In that case, her appreciation of Naruto's worth to her would have been too great to entertain those kinds of thoughts.

I'm still saying that she considered Naruto to be a true friend at that point and I'm still looking for you to say that she didn't think that her own parents were important enough to her that she'd betray them and hook up with somebody that wanted them dead. You're coming close, but seem to be dancing around that declaration.

I'm not dancing around anything. I said it once, and I'll say it again: At the time of 181, Sakura's perceptions and appreciation of everyone else's importance in her life (this includes parents, friends, and what have you) were so low that she would consider, among other things, betrayal. Do I think that that's what they were really worth to her? No. But do I think that full and constant recognition and appreciation of her family and friends would have prevented her from even considering this train of thought? Yes. Am I ignoring her growth to that point? No. But is Sakura herself ignoring her own growth up to that point? Yes. Make of that what you will.

As for my own part, I'm not too concerned by her saying it. When me and my sisters were at about that age, we said some fairly unpleasant things to each other and probably thought worse things. I knew that we didn't mean it and I'm fairly confident that they knew as well. It's just something that slips out at the heat of the moment, particularly when you're young.

How can you compare your situation with Sakura's?!? Were you and your sisters raised to be shinobi who put the village and the mission above all, as Sakura was? Were you emphatically taught by your mentor that abandoning comrades made you lower than trash, like Sakura was? Were you reminded multiple times that betrayal was a crime met with death in the shinobi world (with the hunter-nin explanation in Wave and how Konoha approached fighting the Sand with a take-no-prisoners approach after the Sand betrayed them), as Sakura was? Sakura experienced all of this, and as we all know, she's not dumb. At the very least, she knew that betrayal and abandonment of her village was an act not to be taken lightly, and certainly not a joking matter. Therefore, she did have some idea that her statement carried some measure of weight. So I simply cannot understand how people can continue to give her the benefit of the doubt in this regard (that she had absolutely no clue of what she was thinking by saying what she said in 181) given her upbringing. It simply makes no sense to me.

I just don't place the same significance on her words in chapter 181. (This probably summarizes our whole debate. )

I agree.

I didn't say that your view didn't mean that she wasn't being callous of the feelings of others, only that she wasn't being deliberately callous. I think that you can be manipulative even unconsciously and the scenario that you've described is pretty much that.

But "unconscious" manipulation isn't manipulation at all. Manipulation is a deliberate calculated set of actions carefully designed to obtain a desired advantageous result. Therefore, manipulation is required to be conscious by it's very nature. So Sakura desperately begging Naruto like a lost soul is about the farthest thing from manipulation there is. Did she see his worth only to be a means to an end? In my mind, undoubtedly. But the reasons behind this view are every bit as key, if not more so, as the view itself. Sakura's reasons for this view were based around a lack of appreciation for Naruto as a person due to blindness and ignorance. If she had been a "manipulative b*tch", she wouldn't have been blind or ignorant to anything; she have realized perfectly well what his worth was as a person, and yet would have made a conscious effort to continuously devalue and disregard that worth because it didn't fit her desires or her purposes. The reason why she was clearly the former and not the latter is the very reason why she was able to finally realize Naruto's loyalty to her and his true importance in her life. Had she truly been the latter, such a realization would never have come to be.

Like I said before, the difference in our positions is that you take her words in chapter 181 as much more heartfelt than I. You sound like you're saying that they're almost close friends prior to that point, but that she just isn't willing to accept it and because of that is willing to devalue that not-quite friendship as well as her relationships with Ino and her parents.

I, on the other hand, think that she really does consider Naruto a friend at that point, even if she hasn't admitted it to herself. Stating that her decision to leave Konoha disproves that friendship doesn't stop with just that one, it disproves her valuation of every relationship that she's had with Konoha. Even if you don't think that she thinks those friendships are worth anything, if you consider her offer to be even semi-serious, she's pledging to throw away their lives as well. I can't sync up that interpretation of Sakura to the one in part two ... or for that matter, most of part one.

But to be a "close friend", she HAS to accept it. There is no closeness without an acceptance and desire for it! Until that desire is present, a person is not close to another. It's just a one-way street. "Close friendship" requires willing investment from both parties, not just one. And it is Sakura who lacked in this regard.

And she IS devaluing her relationships at that point. If she hadn't, there is simply no way those statements ever even make their way into her mind, let alone become powerful enough for her to say them. A conscious understanding and appreciation of her connections at that point in time would have prevented such thoughts.

And I can't see why you'd sync up Sakura in 181 to Sakura in Part II or Part I. It's not as if she stayed static as a person here, even though she may have thought she did. The fact that she later opened her eyes and began to appreciate her bonds for what they were is the reason for why she is who she is in Part II. And her ignoring her own growth throughout Part I is the reason why she acts differently in 181 than in most of Part I. It's a matter of constantly understanding and appreciating the importance of others. With that constant understanding and appreciation, she wouldn't have even thought of the words she said in 181, because her perception of people's worth to her would simply have been to great for her to do so. But because she didn't have that appreciation and understanding on a constant level, she not only thought of what she said in 181, but actually said it as well. Was this view brought about by blindness and ignorance rather than cold-hearted calculation? Certainly. But even so, you simply cannot say that she was as constantly aware that she was as close to people in 181 as she is to Naruto in Part II (and by extension, that she had developed her side of NaruSaku anywhere near as much as she had in Part II). Because if she was, 181 goes extremely differently, if it ever happens at all.

SkyStrider

[Nick Soapdish]

I'm not moving the goal posts one bit. What I said was that those moments she had with Naruto had little lasting impresssion, and were mostly centered in one moment in time. This is a far cry from the "constant" impression we see Naruto having on her now. I'm not interested in flashes in the pan. I'm interested in consistency. This consistency is what she has in Part II that she never had for most of Part I. And I'm saying that she only got this consistent view at the PoaL.

But those moments that she had with Naruto did have a lasting impression. She specifically thought back on them later on two occasions and shows evidence of it in her other treatment of Naruto, such as using him to motivate Sasuke or her trust in Naruto's judgment on opening the scroll.

And they still don't affect her actions all that much, at least not in regards to how she treats him directly. Yes, she exclaims that if feels great that he beat Kiba. But does she go and congratulate him on it? No. Yes, she reflects on Naruto saving her. But does she ever get off her butt and actually go thank him for it? No. Yes, she's willing to tell him Sasuke's secret against his wishes. But does she ever do this BEFORE she realizes that Naruto could possibly kill Sasuke (in the hospital fight)? No. All in all, Sakura's direct actions towards Naruto speak loudest of all. It's easy to acknowledge someone from afar, or think you're getting closer from afar. But unless you actually go and show THAT person you mean what you feel, your feelings mean little. And compared to showing constant warmth and care towards that person (like Sakura clearly shows Naruto in Part II, what with healing his arm, offering to feed him ramen, and pledging to save Sasuke for him), those previous actions are, in relative terms, so small they are close to having no worth at all.

I'm pretty sure that she heard him cheering loudly for him up on the balcony. Doesn't that, coupled with her pep talk before the fight, count as acknowledging him?

And she thanked him for his support in her fight against Ino immediately prior to his own fight.

Naruto certainly didn't act like he thought her actions were close to having no worth at all. He considered her one of his few precious people that had acknowledged him.

And in the fight against Sasuke on the roof, the name that she calls out in concern is Naruto's, not Sasuke's.

Huh? How can both of these statements be true? To be able to say that the "bulk" of the work in their relationship happened prior to Sasuke's departure, she would had HAD to have been as close to Naruto as she is in Part II! You said it yourself: "the relationship depends on the perceptions and actions of two." And there is a stark difference in Sakura's views and actions before Sasuke's departure, and afterwards. And I believe that difference (from lukewarm to so-close-they-might-be-mistaken-for-a-couple) came about at and after the PoaL, and not before.

Bulk simply means most or greater part of. So there can still be significant development after the PoaL (and I think there was) and she can still get significantly closer (nearly twice as close if you can measure it).

We may have found a second difference of opinion. You seem to think that by me saying "bulk" that everything happened prior. That's not the case. I just think that most of the development happened prior - enough to form a good friendship and the basis for the future development. A solid friendship.

That "voluntary desire" is the crux of my entire point! It is the very basis of a close, two-way relationship, especially one of the depth that Naruto and Sakura have in Part II! You can't have anywhere close to the type of advanced friendship that Naruto and Sakura have in Part II unless you have both understanding and commitment from both sides! And that means that for Sakura to ever become anywhere as close to Naruto as she is now, she first has to appreciate his worth in her life and has to willingly commit herself to being his friend! And that extends to my later points that if she had made such a commitment to Naruto before the PaoL, she would have never even considered thinking ANYTHING she said in 181, let alone actually saying it. Instead, she would have utterly berated herself for thinking it after dismissing it right away. In that case, her appreciation of Naruto's worth to her would have been too great to entertain those kinds of thoughts.

I disagree.

I think that in Part 1, Naruto and Sasuke had a very close two-way relationship. A very dysfunctional one, but still very close. There was nothing voluntary about it though and both were trying their hardest to deny it.

I'm not dancing around anything. I said it once, and I'll say it again: At the time of 181, Sakura's perceptions and appreciation of everyone else's importance in her life (this includes parents, friends, and what have you) were so low that she would consider, among other things, betrayal. Do I think that that's what they were really worth to her? No. But do I think that full and constant recognition and appreciation of her family and friends would have prevented her from even considering this train of thought? Yes. Am I ignoring her growth to that point? No. But is Sakura herself ignoring her own growth up to that point? Yes. Make of that what you will.

Ok, I guess that I don't think that Sakura was that shallow or immature at that point. You keep on saying that they all paled in comparison with her perceived relationship with Sasuke (and I agree), but I don't think that means they were worth little to her, even in her own estimation.

How can you compare your situation with Sakura's?!? Were you and your sisters raised to be shinobi who put the village and the mission above all, as Sakura was? Were you emphatically taught by your mentor that abandoning comrades made you lower than trash, like Sakura was? Were you reminded multiple times that betrayal was a crime met with death in the shinobi world (with the hunter-nin explanation in Wave and how Konoha approached fighting the Sand with a take-no-prisoners approach after the Sand betrayed them), as Sakura was? Sakura experienced all of this, and as we all know, she's not dumb. At the very least, she knew that betrayal and abandonment of her village was an act not to be taken lightly, and certainly not a joking matter. Therefore, she did have some idea that her statement carried some measure of weight. So I simply cannot understand how people can continue to give her the benefit of the doubt in this regard (that she had absolutely no clue of what she was thinking by saying what she said in 181) given her upbringing. It simply makes no sense to me.

How? Because I was once 12.

You're crediting Sakura as being an extremely mature 12-year old and then denying all of the evidence of her maturity. Being told something intellectually isn't the same as "knowing" it. That's something that she learned with the "death" of Sasuke. It's something that you learn by experience, such as chapters 181, 183, and 236.

I'm not saying that she had absolutely no clue of what she was saying. I just don't think that she put any thought into what she said before she said it and that she didn't mean it.

But "unconscious" manipulation isn't manipulation at all. Manipulation is a deliberate calculated set of actions carefully designed to obtain a desired advantageous result. Therefore, manipulation is required to be conscious by it's very nature. So Sakura desperately begging Naruto like a lost soul is about the farthest thing from manipulation there is. Did she see his worth only to be a means to an end? In my mind, undoubtedly. But the reasons behind this view are every bit as key, if not more so, as the view itself. Sakura's reasons for this view were based around a lack of appreciation for Naruto as a person due to blindness and ignorance. If she had been a "manipulative kitten", she wouldn't have been blind or ignorant to anything; she have realized perfectly well what his worth was as a person, and yet would have made a conscious effort to continuously devalue and disregard that worth because it didn't fit her desires or her purposes. The reason why she was clearly the former and not the latter is the very reason why she was able to finally realize Naruto's loyalty to her and his true importance in her life. Had she truly been the latter, such a realization would never have come to be.

Unconscious manipulation is still manipulation. The definition of manipulation doesn't require that the person be conscious of their actions and aims. You're adding a lot of qualifiers on the dictionary definition.


"To manage or use skillfully, especially in an unfair manner."

Not sure how to respond to the rest since it seems that I'd simply be repeating myself. Probably again.

[SkyStrider]

But those moments that she had with Naruto did have a lasting impression. She specifically thought back on them later on two occasions and shows evidence of it in her other treatment of Naruto, such as using him to motivate Sasuke or her trust in Naruto's judgment on opening the scroll.

The first instance is not evidence, as she's talking to SASUKE. It's a SasuSaku interaction, not a NaruSaku one. It in no way shows that any moment she had actually acquired a consatant awareness and appreciation of Naruto as a person. In fact, the very deed of using it to motivate Sasuke would instead imply the opposite (inspiring Sasuke's shame in telling him to not let Naruto beat him, implying a demeaning of Naruto).

And if you read Chapter 60 again, you'll see that she NEVER ONCE trusted Naruto's judgment when he wanted to open up the scroll. In fact, she even called him an "idiot" for even thinking it (twice over, even), and then furthermore thought of him as a "naive moron" too! That is about the farthest thing from "trust" there is! How you saw this scene as evidence that she was willing to trust in Naruto, I'll never know.

I'm pretty sure that she heard him cheering loudly for him up on the balcony. Doesn't that, coupled with her pep talk before the fight, count as acknowledging him?

And she thanked him for his support in her fight against Ino immediately prior to his own fight.

Again, flashes in the pan that hardly meant anything later, especially given how even with all that, she's still quick and more than eager to give the credit of beating Gaara to Sasuke (even though Sasuke was already rendered paralyzed and defenseless by Gaara and the CS, leaving Naruto as the last guy standing right up to the time she blacked out), or how she failed to even thank Naruto for saving her freakin' life even AFTER Sasuke corrected her (and had to do so twice over, even). This is a far cry from what we see from her in Part II, where she's not anywhere close to even dreaming of being this negligent or dismissive of Naruto due to her realization and constant appreciation of what he is and what he's worth.

Naruto certainly didn't act like he thought her actions were close to having no worth at all. He considered her one of his few precious people that had acknowledged him.

Of course he did! Naruto, as he always has and probably always will, was basically adoring the ground she walked on! He was at a point where he thought every freakin' little crumb she happened to drop for him was worth a thousand times it's weight in gold! Hell, he'd even thought of Sasuke as a precious person who seemed to acknowledge him, and we all know how relatively little he realized that connection was worth to Sasuke...

And in the fight against Sasuke on the roof, the name that she calls out in concern is Naruto's, not Sasuke's.

She never calls out Naruto's name on the roof in that scene (Chapters 175-177). Not once.

Bulk simply means most or greater part of. So there can still be significant development after the PoaL (and I think there was) and she can still get significantly closer (nearly twice as close if you can measure it).

We may have found a second difference of opinion. You seem to think that by me saying "bulk" that everything happened prior. That's not the case. I just think that most of the development happened prior - enough to form a good friendship and the basis for the future development. A solid friendship.

Not at all. I know exactly what you meant. You said it yourself: "most of the development of their relationship (as of present) comes from before Sasuke's departure." This is what I disagree with. My opinion is that "most" of their development did NOT happen before Sasuke's departure, but after. Had you said "some" of their development (implying a small part that is not the majority), I would have agreed completely. But you said most, implying that they had already gotten to a level somewhere close by to the level they currently are in their friendship before Sasuke left. I disagree, in that at the time of Sasuke's departure, they weren't even in the same ballpark in terms of closeness in comparison to how close they are in Part II, let alone close to the same level. At the time of the departure, Sakura hadn't even recognized the fact that Naruto had always been there for her. And she still didn't act as if she was willing to open up her side of the relationship, meaning it was a "good, solid friendship" on only one side: Naruto's. Was there a basis for future development? I never doubted that. But do I think the amount of that "future development" was greater than the amount of development that happened before the departure? Unquestionably.

If anything, I think the one confused here is you. You seem to think that I think ALL of their development happened after the PoaL, which I never claimed nor do I think is true. What I instead think was that at the time of the departure, they had grown some (or gone down about, say, 20-25% of the road to where they are now in their relationship), but nowhere near as much as they would eventually grow. And in turn, the rest of their growth (the other 75-80%) only happened after Sasuke left. Your opinion would imply the converse (or in other words, that the numbers were actually reversed).

In sum, I think this:

(NaruSaku "CLOSENESS" METER)

{NaruSaku in Chapter 1)--------------(Sasuke leaves/PoaL)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------{NaruSaku in Part II and 372}

While you seem to think this:

(NaruSaku "CLOSENESS" METER)

{NaruSaku in Chapter 1}---------------------------------------------------------------------------------(Sasuke leaves/PoaL)-----------------{NaruSaku in Part II and 372}

Stark difference there.

I disagree.

I think that in Part 1, Naruto and Sasuke had a very close two-way relationship. A very dysfunctional one, but still very close. There was nothing voluntary about it though and both were trying their hardest to deny it.

I don't think it was close at all, and nothing close to "two-way". In fact, it would have given every other "true" close, two-way relationship out there a bad name. It was a one-way relationship with one side making the most minimal advances on the other. It was voluntary on one side: Naruto's. It was being denied with everything by only one side: Sakura's. It was being appreciated by one side: Naruto's. It was being unappreciated by one side: Sakura's. The relationship in Part II, on the other hand, is voluntary on both sides, with both sides appreciating it for exactly what it is, and both sides clearly acting as if they'd do anything in their power to maintain it. That, to me, is a TRUE close, two-way relationship. And I still think the majority of the work done in building it happened after Sasuke left, not before.

Ok, I guess that I don't think that Sakura was that shallow or immature at that point. You keep on saying that they all paled in comparison with her perceived relationship with Sasuke (and I agree), but I don't think that means they were worth little to her, even in her own estimation.

I do, on both counts (that Sakura was indeed that shallow/immature at that point AND that it means they were worth little to her in her own estimation/perception). I suppose we'll just agree to disagree on this, then

On another note, it could also be that I'm somewhat colder and not as forgiving in my evaluation of Sakura (and the other characters) than you might be. Again, nothing wrong on either of our parts, just a matter of taste and philosophy.

How? Because I was once 12.

You're crediting Sakura as being an extremely mature 12-year old and then denying all of the evidence of her maturity. Being told something intellectually isn't the same as "knowing" it. That's something that she learned with the "death" of Sasuke. It's something that you learn by experience, such as chapters 181, 183, and 236.

I'm not saying that she had absolutely no clue of what she was saying. I just don't think that she put any thought into what she said before she said it and that she didn't mean it.

I'm not crediting her with "maturity" at all. I'm crediting her with the intelligence to realize that betrayal isn't something to take lightly, ESPECIALLY in the environment she grew up in. That's not employing maturity, that's just using simple common sense. Or at the very least, feeling a sense of fear. She wasn't just "told" of the consequences of betrayal, she personally witnessed them herself! For her to see that and then still fail to (at the very least) realize that betrayal is not a light or easily dismissable matter is not immaturity, it's utter stupidity. And Sakura, as we all know, is not stupid.

Unconscious manipulation is still manipulation. The definition of manipulation doesn't require that the person be conscious of their actions and aims. You're adding a lot of qualifiers on the dictionary definition.


"To manage or use skillfully, especially in an unfair manner."

Actually, two other, more expanded definitions on Dictionary.com (the site you referred to) most certainly define manipulation as requiring consciousness of actions as aims. And it is these definitions I use. Here:

Dictionary.com page entry for "Manipulation"

(Under the "American Heritage Dictionary" section)

Manipulation:

1: a. The act or practice of manipulating; b. The state of being manipulated.
2: Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.

(And under the "Wordnet" section)

Manipulation:

1. exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage; "his manipulation of his friends was scandalous"

And just for kicks, here's the definition given in my copy of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition (copyright 2000 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated):

Manipulate:

1: to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means in a skillful manner
2: a. to manage or utilize skillfully (your definition); b. to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's own purpose

As you can see, the definition I use emphasizes a conscious awareness of actions and aims. Hence, there is no possible way that manipulation can be unconscious, in my mind at least. And there is certainly no way I can see how someone can be a "manipulative b*tch" in an unconscious manner.

Not sure how to respond to the rest since it seems that I'd simply be repeating myself. Probably again.

And if you did, I'd probably be repeating myself again as well.

SkyStrider

[Nick Soapdish]

The first instance is not evidence, as she's talking to SASUKE. It's a SasuSaku interaction, not a NaruSaku one. It in no way shows that any moment she had actually acquired a consatant awareness and appreciation of Naruto as a person. In fact, the very deed of using it to motivate Sasuke would instead imply the opposite (inspiring Sasuke's shame in telling him to not let Naruto beat him, implying a demeaning of Naruto).

It's not a NaruSaku interaction. It's an indication of how she feels about Naruto's abilities. It's a back-handed compliment, but she's using Sasuke's rivalry with Naruto to motivate him.

And I don't think that she had a constant awareness and appreciation of Naruto at that time. It was still developing.

And if you read Chapter 60 again, you'll see that she NEVER ONCE trusted Naruto's judgment when he wanted to open up the scroll. In fact, she even called him an "idiot" for even thinking it (twice over, even), and then furthermore thought of him as a "naive moron" too! That is about the farthest thing from "trust" there is! How you saw this scene as evidence that she was willing to trust in Naruto, I'll never know.

You mean other than nodding and going along with his idea?

If she didn't trust him, she would've tried to stop him. Instead, she was persuaded. And when Sasuke reproves the two of them for it later, she doesn't try to blame Naruto for it.

Of course he did! Naruto, as he always has and probably always will, was basically adoring the ground she walked on! He was at a point where he thought every freakin' little crumb she dropped for him was worth it's weight in gold! Hell, he'd even thought of Sasuke as a precious person who seemed to acknowledge him, and we all know how relatively little he realized that connection was worth to Sasuke...

He says just the reverse to Sasuke in the Valley of the End - that he was trying to deny their similarities and how close they were. And their difficulties after Sasuke sacrificed himself to save Naruto in the Wave arc suggested just the same - they couldn't handle the knowledge that they actually cared for each other.

She never calls out Naruto's name on the roof in that scene (Chapters 175-177). Not once.

Sorry. Must've just been anime then. She also calls out for Naruto during the Gaara fight, but that's also just anime.

Not at all. I know exactly what you meant. You said it yourself: "most of the development of their relationship (as of present) comes from before Sasuke's departure." This is what I disagree with. My opinion is that "most" of their development did NOT happen before Sasuke's departure, but after. Had you said "some" of their development (implying a small part that is not the majority), I would have agreed completely. But you said most, implying that they had already gotten to a level somewhere close by to the level they currently are in their friendship before Sasuke left. I disagree, in that at the time of Sasuke's departure, they weren't even in the same ballpark in terms of closeness in comparison to how close they are in Part II, let alone close to the same level. At the time of the departure, Sakura hadn't even recognized the fact that Naruto had always been there for her. And she still didn't act as if she was willing to open up her side of the relationship, meaning it was a "good, solid friendship" on only one side: Naruto's. Was there a basis for future development? I never doubted that. But do I think the amount of that "future development" was greater than the amount of development that happened before the departure? Unquestionably.

If you understood what I meant, why are you saying that it's impossible for them to have gotten closer in part one if the bulk of the development happened in part one? You're asserting that I claimed that all of the development happened in part one and that there was no further room for them to get closer.

If anything, I think the one confused here is you. You seem to think that I think ALL of their development happened after the PoaL, which I never claimed nor do I think is true. What I instead think was that at the time of the departure, they had grown some (or gone down about, say, 20-25% of the road to where they are now in their relationship), but nowhere near as much as they would eventually grow. And in turn, the rest of their growth (the other 75-80%) only happened after Sasuke left. Your opinion would imply the converse (or in other words, that the numbers were actually reversed).

In sum, I think this:

(NaruSaku "CLOSENESS" METER)

{NaruSaku in Chapter 1)--------------(Sasuke leaves/PoaL)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------{NaruSaku in Part II}

While you seem to think this:

(NaruSaku "CLOSENESS" METER)

{NaruSaku in Chapter 1}---------------------------------------------------------------------------------(Sasuke leaves/PoaL)-----------------{NaruSaku in Part II}

Stark difference there.

What I think is that you've measured it out a lot more precisely than I have.

I'd be happy to say that it was roughly 50/50, but if you pushed me (well, you don't have to push me, I've already volunteered it) to say where most of the development comes from, it's prior to the PoaL. That's where all the groundwork was. The PoaL and subsequent events is just where the payoff became more obvious.

And yeah, I am still confused about your own perceptions. Maybe it's just that you're trying to emphasize your points, but in putting down any progress that they've made in part one, it sounds like you feel the fraction of development was a lot less than the 20-25% that you just claimed.

Actually, two other, more expanded definitions on Dictionary.com (the site you referred to) most certainly define manipulation as requiring consciousness of actions as aims. And it is these definitions I use. Here:

Dictionary.com page entry for "Manipulation"

(Under the "American Heritage Dictionary" section)

Manipulation:

1: a. The act or practice of manipulating; b. The state of being manipulated.
2: Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.

(And under the "Wordnet" section)

Manipulation:

1. exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage; "his manipulation of his friends was scandalous"

And just for kicks, here's the definition given in my copy of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition (copyright 2000 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated):

Manipulate:

1: to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means in a skillful manner
2: a. to manage or utilize skillfully (your definition); b. to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's own purpose

As you can see, the definition I use emphasizes a conscious awareness of actions and aims. Hence, there is no possible way that manipulation can be unconscious, in my mind at least. And there is certainly no way I can see how someone can be a "manipulative kitten" in an unconscious manner.

I read all of the definitions and while I went with the most popular, none of the ones require consciousness of one's actions IMO. Some imply it (like the American Heritage one using "management" or the part with "insidious means"). Skillful isn't synonymous with deliberate or conscious. Neither is shrewd, artful, or unfair. And a person can act towards a certain purpose without being conscious of it. Maybe I'm especially absent-minded, but I have a lot. I think the unconscious mind is a pretty powerful tool and can do a heckuva lot that one isn't aware of.

And I have the 11th Edition of Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, copyright 2005.

It says the same thing though. :amuse

You're welcome to argue that some definitions of manipulative require conscious effort (although I'd still disagree). But some clearly don't, including the most common definition. Anyway, we're way off topic here. I guess it beats going over the same ground again.