77 replies to this topic

[TerrorKing]

Sure, they can. But most won't. The thing of being a seasoned veteran is that you learn to overcome those mistakes. You learn proper formatting, how to spot mistakes and how to efficiently correct them. It comes with experience. If Kishimoto painted himself into a corner, then frankly, he has absolutely no clue what he's doing. But that isn't the case. If it was, he wouldn't be among the top-selling mangaka for as long as he has.

The fact that something is popular does not mean that it is good and it sure as hell does not mean that it is infallible either. It simply means that it is appealing, which is not and has never been, a definite seal of quality.

No. We really don't. Because the last part of that sentence was my main point.

Yeah we do. At least we agree that far.

As a shipper of the NS pairing, I seriously doubt that there is any reason you could possibly accept for any outcome other than NS. So, no offense, but I would not be moved if you called bullsh**. Even if you do not accept the proposition that Naruto loved Hinata back (I don't either), the fact that he has dedicated any energy to it at all as a possibility means that he has laid the groundwork to take that route if he needs to. All he would really need to do is have Naruto somehow take notice of her and consider her confession on the battlefield. Naruto has never been loved by a girl, not like that. And as someone who is in the same situation, I can tell you, suddenly learning that someone has a serious crush on you would, at the very least, spark curiosity in testing the waters.

Do I think NH will happen? No. I think NS will happen, because it is the only pairing that has received so much deliberate attention and detailed development. But I constantly hear NS fanatics claim that it is completely impossible. No, it really isn't. Nothing is, not if Kishimoto knows what he is doing.

The reason I would call bullsh** is not so much that NS didn't happen (although that would certainly be a big part of it), but more so that it wouldn't really make sense from a storytelling perspective. For example, what was the reason for the MinaKushi and JiraTsu parallels if it didn't mean that NS would happen? Why go to such great lenghts to create all that drama regarding Sakura's feelings (confession, love letter nin and all the little hints throughout the story) if it didn't mean that NS would happen? That would be the main reason why I would not accept NH as a canon pairing right away. Why give all that attention and development to NS if it was just going to be a red herring for NH?

You're also mistaken when you say that I wouldn't accept any other pairing than NS. It's true that at first, I would be skeptical and possible a little ticked off, but in the end I would learn to accept it. Just like I felt when my country got a leftist government last fall. At first I was disappointed and angry, but eventually I accepted it.

And by the way, I am most certainly not one of those "NS fanatics" who claim that NH has no chance of happening at all. It most certainly has, but as I explained above, It just wouldn't make sense from a storytelling perspective, at least to me it wouldn't

[PachucoDesigns]

The fact that something is popular does not mean that it is good and it sure as hell does not mean that it is infallible either. It simply means that it is appealing, which is not and has never been, a definite seal of quality.

You say that as though you somehow think he is trying to make an argument, like he is trying to defend himself for something. As someone who produces a product sold to the masses, I'm sure he's aware that you can't please all of the people all of the time. So what makes you think that he cares if his ideas are appealing to everyone, let alone if he has everyone's seal of quality? Do you think he really cares if he offends or upsets a few when the many are entertained and approve of his work? There are people who do not like Stephen King. Yet, it is largely agreed that he is a legend, and for good reason.

Yeah we do. At least we agree that far.

Why would I possibly say that you don't have the right to be displeased with something? The only one who can possibly have a say in what you do or do not like is you. It would be absurd to say anything else.

The reason I would call bullsh** is not so much that NS didn't happen (although that would certainly be a big part of it), but more so that it wouldn't really make sense from a storytelling perspective. For example, what was the reason for the MinaKushi and JiraTsu parallels if it didn't mean that NS would happen? Why go to such great lenghts to create all that drama regarding Sakura's feelings (confession, love letter nin and all the little hints throughout the story) if it didn't mean that NS would happen? That would be the main reason why I would not accept NH as a canon pairing right away. Why give all that attention and development to NS if it was just going to be a red herring for NH?

You're also mistaken when you say that I wouldn't accept any other pairing than NS. It's true that at first, I would be skeptical and possible a little ticked off, but in the end I would learn to accept it. Just like I felt when my country got a leftist government last fall. At first I was disappointed and angry, but eventually I accepted it.

And by the way, I am most certainly not one of those "NS fanatics" who claim that NH has no chance of happening at all. It most certainly has, but as I explained above, It just wouldn't make sense from a storytelling perspective, at least to me it wouldn't

Shippers insist on drawing these parallels, and they are weak at best. Even if I were to concede that they are symbolic of NS's inevitability, which I don't, this would be to deny that individual people tend to show no real pattern of who they like regardless of their similarities to others. And in this case, the similarities are sparse at best. The drama over Sakura's feelings was split between both Sasuke and Naruto, and so far, Sasuke is the only one to whom she admitted being completely sold on (once upon a time, at least). People project their own ideas onto Kishimoto's story, reading between lines that are not there. If there's one thing I've noticed about Kishimoto so far, it's that subtlety is not really his forte. He is upfront with most of the things he implies, especially those of particular significance. This is why it makes me gag about how people make such a big deal over "warm smiles." It is not enough to sway me, nor should it be enough to sway anyone.

[TerrorKing]

You say that as though you somehow think he is trying to make an argument, like he is trying to defend himself for something. As someone who produces a product sold to the masses, I'm sure he's aware that you can't please all of the people all of the time. So what makes you think that he cares if his ideas are appealing to everyone, let alone if he has everyone's seal of quality? Do you think he really cares if he offends or upsets a few when the many are entertained and approve of his work? There are people who do not like Stephen King. Yet, it is largely agreed that he is a legend, and for good reason.

What makes you think I'm talking about Kishi "trying to please everyone". All I was saying that is, just because something is popular doesn't make it above criticism. That's all. I just hate it when people try to use that argument. "Oh so you don't like Britney Spears. Well kitten you, because she's way more popular than whatever sh*tty band you like." Yeah sure, Britney Spears is pretty kittening popular. Still, that doesn't mean I have to like her music. Yes Stephen King is a very celebrated writer and he very much deserves his place in history. Still doesn't mean that he can't kitten up though.

Why would I possibly say that you don't have the right to be displeased with something? The only one who can possibly have a say in what you do or do not like is you. It would be absurd to say anything else.

Well okay, whatever dude. I was just trying to see the positive side of things.

Shippers insist on drawing these parallels, and they are weak at best. Even if I were to concede that they are symbolic of NS's inevitability, which I don't, this would be to deny that individual people tend to show no real pattern of who they like regardless of their similarities to others. And in this case, the similarities are sparse at best. The drama over Sakura's feelings was split between both Sasuke and Naruto, and so far, Sasuke is the only one to whom she admitted being completely sold on (once upon a time, at least). People project their own ideas onto Kishimoto's story, reading between lines that are not there. If there's one thing I've noticed about Kishimoto so far, it's that subtlety is not really his forte. He is upfront with most of the things he implies, especially those of particular significance. This is why it makes me gag about how people make such a big deal over "warm smiles." It is not enough to sway me, nor should it be enough to sway anyone.

And what exactly makes them so weak? Sure, if those parallels were the only thing that NS had going for it, yeah that would be pretty weak. Like if the only reason NS became canon, regardless if there were any actual chemistry, was because "they are like X pairing", I can understand why that would seem lame. Fortuneately, those aren't the only things NS has going for it. There are plenty of instances where it's hinted that Sakura may reciprocate Naruto's feelings. Yes, a lot of it is speculation and yes, a lot of it is reading between the lines but to me, half the fun of being in a fandom is indeed based on speculatioin and reading between the lines. As long as you keep in mind that you may be wrong or that you may be reading too much into things, then I don't really see the problem. Besides, without the power of speculation and analysis, none of the big three really has anything solid to go on, since Kishi has yet to show us any definite proof that either will happen. Hence the reason why we are all here debating about it.

Yes, people project their own thoughts and ideas onto Kishi's story, but why is that so wrong? You yourself has stated that the reason why many guys don't like Sakura is because she reminds them of a type of girl who they don't like or wish to be in a relaionship with. This is despite the fact that that is not the authors or the story's intention at all. Yes, people are biased. I'm biased. You are biased. We are all biased, based on things like pairings preferences, character preferences and our own experiences. Once again, I don't really see the problem.

[PachucoDesigns]

What makes you think I'm talking about Kishi "trying to please everyone". All I was saying that is, just because something is popular doesn't make it above criticism. That's all. I just hate it when people try to use that argument. "Oh so you don't like Britney Spears. Well kitten you, because she's way more popular than whatever sh*tty band you like." Yeah sure, Britney Spears is pretty kittening popular. Still, that doesn't mean I have to like her music. Yes Stephen King is a very celebrated writer and he very much deserves his place in history. Still doesn't mean that he can't kitten up though.

You're right, it doesn't mean that it's above criticism. But it does mean that he doesn't have to care about your criticism, and that your grievances are your own.

And what exactly makes them so weak? Sure, if those parallels were the only thing that NS had going for it, yeah that would be pretty weak. Like if the only reason NS became canon, regardless if there were any actual chemistry, was because "they are like X pairing", I can understand why that would seem lame. Fortuneately, those aren't the only things NS has going for it. There are plenty of instances where it's hinted that Sakura may reciprocate Naruto's feelings. Yes, a lot of it is speculation and yes, a lot of it is reading between the lines but to me, half the fun of being in a fandom is indeed based on speculatioin and reading between the lines. As long as you keep in mind that you may be wrong or that you may be reading too much into things, then I don't really see the problem. Besides, without the power of speculation and analysis, none of the big three really has anything solid to go on, since Kishi has yet to show us any definite proof that either will happen. Hence the reason why we are all here debating about it.

Because I don't see how they are like X pairing. I see a few similarities in their characters, a few similarities in the circumstances of their lives, but I see too few similarities in the way they relate to one another to call it a valid means of prediction. And it's a bit difficult to believe that any hardcore shipper (like most of the people here) have even considered the possibility of being wrong when they throw a fit at even the slightest objection to their reasoning or defense of an alternative. It's hard to believe that any of them consider that they may be wrong when their arguments are so copy/paste that it sounds like indoctrination. It's the facade of making people think you care about the reasoning when your desire is much baser than that. For most, they like Naruto, they like Sakura. And for some, they simply like Sakura and believe she is entitled to Naruto. And to defend their belief, they will spout off whatever they hear from their peers to defend it. They look for evidence to support their conclusion rather than deriving a conclusion from the evidence.

And then someone comes along who takes no sides, who actually tries to weigh the evidence before deciding on which pairing will be canon, and they are chopped down like so much firewood, called "trolls." I even had someone here try to ridicule me for "rationalizing." You know, thinking rationally. Without bias. Ridiculous.

Yes, people project their own thoughts and ideas onto Kishi's story, but why is that so wrong? You yourself has stated that the reason why many guys don't like Sakura is because she reminds them of a type of girl who they don't like or wish to be in a relaionship with. This is despite the fact that that is not the authors or the story's intention at all. Yes, people are biased. I'm biased. You are biased. We are all biased, based on things like pairings preferences, character preferences and our own experiences. Once again, I don't really see the problem.

Why? Because they get unreasonably pissed when their expectations aren't met, and they gloat to those whose expectations weren't met when theirs are. Yes, I did make that statement. But it doesn't speak to imposing their own ideas on his story. It's their reaction to it, not interpreting anything about the story itself from it.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 17 July 2012 - 10:50 PM.

[TerrorKing]

You're right, it doesn't mean that it's above criticism. But it does mean that he doesn't have to care about your criticism, and that your grievances are your own.

I never said he did. I'm merely defending my right to express my opinion freely.

Because I don't see how they are like X pairing. I see a few similarities in their characters, a few similarities in the circumstances of their lives, but I see too few similarities in the way they relate to one another to call it a valid means of prediction.

And it's a bit difficult to believe that any hardcore shipper (like most of the people here) have even considered the possibility of being wrong when they throw a fit at even the slightest objection to their reasoning or defense of an alternative. It's hard to believe that any of them consider that they may be wrong when their arguments are so copy/paste that it sounds like indoctrination. It's the facade of making people think you care about the reasoning when your desire is much baser than that.

First of all, I've seen plenty of instances where people have considered that they may be wrong. Sure, every ship has it's overly enthusiastic people who simply refuse to accept that their ship is anything short of perfect in every way, but those are few and far between. Second of all, what do you mean by "copy paste". If someone presents an argument that I like and that I think makes sense and I decide to use it, then what's the problem. That I didn't formulate it myself? Big kittening deal. Yeah, some people will use any evidence to support their beliefs without even trying to see if said evidence actually holds up, but most sensible people actually do "test out" their arguments before using them.

For most, they like Naruto, they like Sakura. And for some, they simply like Sakura and believe she is entitled to Naruto. And to defend their belief, they will spout off whatever they hear from their peers to defend it. They look for evidence to support their conclusion rather than deriving a conclusion from the evidence.

And some simply like Naruto and believe that he is entitled to Sakura because he's such a nice guy. They also believe that Sakura needs to be humbled or somehow suffer as some sort of penance for her "crimes" against Naruto. Only then will she be worthy of Naruto's love.

And then someone comes along who takes no sides, who actually tries to weigh the evidence before deciding on which pairing will be canon, and they are chopped down like so much firewood, called "trolls." I even had someone here try to ridicule me for "rationalizing." You know, thinking rationally. Without bias. Ridiculous.

You can't rationalize everything. Some people simply like NaruSaku. They don't care about logic or evidence. They just like it because they think it's cute or because it appeals to them. Yeah, there are those who throws a tantrum everytime their beliefs are questioned, but once again, those are few and far between.

Why? Because they get unreasonably pissed when their expectations aren't met, and they gloat to those whose expectations weren't met when theirs are. Yes, I did make that statement. But it doesn't speak to imposing their own ideas on his story. It's their reaction to it, not interpreting anything about the story itself from it.

Yes it does. If someone doesn't like Sakura because she reminds them of a bad or abusive girlfriend they used to have and they then proceed to call her an abusive b*tch and call NS an bad pairing, then they are imposing their own ideas and life experiences on the story. Sakura is not an abusive b*tch. Her hitting Naruto is not a negative thing and NS is not an abusive relationship, but as you've explained yourself, there are people who think that, even though they have no evidence or logic to support their arguments.

[MagusKyros]

While I disagree with a lot of your objections and could elaborate, I don't really have the energy to at the moment. With this, however, I absolutely agree. And I have been saying it all along. Though, I don't believe it to be because bad storytelling. I believe it to be because most fans of this anime tend to find something they like in a character, even if that character does not develop well, and cling to it with absolutely no desire to distance themselves from the characters and analyze them rationally. Everything that is needed to understand Sasuke is there plain as day. But most don't care to look for it.

My objections were definitely not elaborated either, I'm sure I could make an essay about it.

I do agree with the viewpoint that people will like or dislike a character based on how they themselves relate to them. Many people like Naruto because he shows good spirits and determination in life to keep going even when things are though, while they will put down Sasuke(and Sakura) for various reasons as everybody has heard them.

But my original point stands when it comes to bad storytelling. Everything that is needed to understand Sasuke is there, but people don't care to look for it BECAUSE they don't relate to Sasuke's struggle as they do with Naruto's, and that's partly because Kishimoto hasn't gone into Sasuke's state of mind as much as he had with Naruto's.

Though, I do agree that people should look harder, but most people reading the manga, a lot of things will just go over their head and understand the simpler stuff. Most forms or entertainment should be easy on the mind, and stories like this and any others have to be designed in a way that the story and background is spoonfed to the people. It is a manga targetted towards a young minded crowd.

[PachucoDesigns]

I never said he did. I'm merely defending my right to express my opinion freely.

And you have that freedom. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you, and don't expect it to affect the outcome.

First of all, I've seen plenty of instances where people have considered that they may be wrong. Sure, every ship has it's overly enthusiastic people who simply refuse to accept that their ship is anything short of perfect in every way, but those are few and far between. Second of all, what do you mean by "copy paste". If someone presents an argument that I like and that I think makes sense and I decide to use it, then what's the problem. That I didn't formulate it myself? Big kittening deal. Yeah, some people will use any evidence to support their beliefs without even trying to see if said evidence actually holds up, but most sensible people actually do "test out" their arguments before using them.

I have attempted multiple times to start a proper dialogue over these things with many people here, and it always ends the same way. Not only do they use the same arguments, they use the same broken arguments with no basis simply because they like the sound of it. For every one person I've met who is actually willing to consider the flaws of their stance, I meet fifty who believe that repeating themselves will eventually make them right. And no, the problem isn't that you didn't formulate it yourself. The problem is that you never gave it any proper thought. Because if anyone did, a lot of the arguments I see here and everywhere in this ridiculous pairing war would not keep making the rounds. Formulating a belief, THEN searching for evidence to back it up is not the right way to do things. You look at the evidence before you, weigh it, THEN you formulate a conclusion. I've seen little to no people who have done that, let alone here.

And some simply like Naruto and believe that he is entitled to Sakura because he's such a nice guy. They also believe that Sakura needs to be humbled or somehow suffer as some sort of penance for her "crimes" against Naruto. Only then will she be worthy of Naruto's love.

Which would mean that the only reason they care for NaruSaku to happen has absolutely nothing at all to do with Sakura, but only that she is the proverbial apple of his eye and deserves to get what he has set out for. But that is never the case. Because when I speak to people about this particular pairing, or any of the three main pairing camps, it is never Naruto they are defending. It is Sakura. If their concern was for Naruto deserving the woman he loves, then the woman he loves would be irrelevant. But that isn't the case. If it was, the NS shippers wouldn't get so butt hurt about Naruto disbelieving her confession. They were concerned for her, and for her to have him, not the other way around.

You can't rationalize everything. Some people simply like NaruSaku. They don't care about logic or evidence. They just like it because they think it's cute or because it appeals to them. Yeah, there are those who throws a tantrum everytime their beliefs are questioned, but once again, those are few and far between.

Yes, you can. Anything that bears debate can be rationalized. If you like NaruSaku and you don't care whether or not it has any basis in reality, good for you. But if you move to make anyone else believe it, then you'd better substantiate your claim and be ready to defend it. Or, at second best, you can comfort yourself by running to any shipping circle jerk who all nod their heads and agree with each other because they are all saying the same things. Ergo, make believe that your reasoning is solid and logical without having to deal with any actual debate or scrutiny. And I submit that there are far more of these people than you are willing to admit.

Yes it does. If someone doesn't like Sakura because she reminds them of a bad or abusive girlfriend they used to have and they then proceed to call her an abusive b*tch and call NS an bad pairing, then they are imposing their own ideas and life experiences on the story. Sakura is not an abusive b*tch. Her hitting Naruto is not a negative thing and NS is not an abusive relationship, but as you've explained yourself, there are people who think that, even though they have no evidence or logic to support their arguments.

You don't understand what I'm saying. Whether or not a person likes a character based on their own moral sentiments is not imposing their own ideas on his story, because the only thing it affects is whether or not that person likes that character or the idea of their pairing. It does not, however, affect what they are convincing themselves is actually happening in the story. It's the difference between arguing what should happen and what will happen. And when you make claims about parallels, or hints, or what any particular character is saying, thinking or doing outside of context, then you ARE imposing your own ideas onto his stories. You're making assumptions, and you're putting words into the author's mouth. You're speaking his intention for him, and you have no business doing so. That is what I mean. It's not a matter of what you would or would not like to happen, but a matter of what you convince yourself IS happening.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 18 July 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[TerrorKing]

And you have that freedom. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you, and don't expect it to affect the outcome.

I don't. I just wan't the right to speak my mind. That's all I care about.

I have attempted multiple times to start a proper dialogue over these things with many people here, and it always ends the same way. Not only do they use the same arguments, they use the same broken arguments with no basis simply because they like the sound of it.

What's so "broken" about these arguments?

For every one person I've met who is actually willing to consider the flaws of their stance, I meet fifty who believe that repeating themselves will eventually make them right.

And maybe that's because they absolutely believe that their argument is right and they see absolutely no fault with it.

And no, the problem isn't that you didn't formulate it yourself. The problem is that you never gave it any proper thought.

But that's exactly what I said. If you take an argument that somebody else made and you test it properly before actually using it, then what's the problem?

Because if anyone did, a lot of the arguments I see here and everywhere in this ridiculous pairing war would not keep making the rounds.

That's just your opinon. I'm sure there's a lot of people on this very site who would disagree with you.

Formulating a belief, THEN searching for evidence to back it up is not the right way to do things. You look at the evidence before you, weigh it, THEN you formulate a conclusion. I've seen little to no people who have done that, let alone here.

It's called a hypothesis.

Which would mean that the only reason they care for NaruSaku to happen has absolutely nothing at all to do with Sakura, but only that she is the proverbial apple of his eye and deserves to get what he has set out for. But that is never the case.

Except that I have actually seen NS shippers who do think like that.

Because when I speak to people about this particular pairing, or any of the three main pairing camps, it is never Naruto they are defending. It is Sakura. If their concern was for Naruto deserving the woman he loves, then the woman he loves would be irrelevant. But that isn't the case. If it was, the NS shippers wouldn't get so butt hurt about Naruto disbelieving her confession. They were concerned for her, and for her to have him, not the other way around.

Of course some NS shippers would be concerned about Naruto getting the woman he loves. Naruto loves Sakura but right now, there is no definite evidence that Sakura loves him, in fct it's quite the opposite.

Yes, you can. Anything that bears debate can be rationalized. If you like NaruSaku and you don't care whether or not it has any basis in reality, good for you. But if you move to make anyone else believe it, then you'd better substantiate your claim and be ready to defend it.

Of course. I never said otherwise either.

Or, at second best, you can comfort yourself by running to any shipping circle jerk who all nod their heads and agree with each other because they are all saying the same things. Ergo, make believe that your reasoning is solid and logical without having to deal with any actual debate or scrutiny. And I submit that there are far more of these people than you are willing to admit.

To tell you the truth, the main reason I'm a member of this site is becasue I was tired of the pairing war. I was tired of people putting others down for daring to have a different opinion/preference than them and most of all, I was tired of people putting down Sakura . I just wanted a nice and friendly place where I could talk about NS with like minded people. As long as I'm aware that my pairing isn't all sunshine and rainbows (which I do btw) then I don't see the problem.

You don't understand what I'm saying. Whether or not a person likes a character based on their own moral sentiments is not imposing their own ideas on his story, because the only thing it affects is whether or not that person likes that character or the idea of their pairing. It does not, however, affect what they are convincing themselves is actually happening in the story. It's the difference between arguing what should happen and what will happen. And when you make claims about parallels, or hints, or what any particular character is saying, thinking or doing outside of context, then you ARE imposing your own ideas onto his stories. You're making assumptions, and you're putting words into the author's mouth. You're speaking his intention for him, and you have no business doing so. That is what I mean. It's not a matter of what you would or would not like to happen, but a matter of what you convince yourself IS happening.

Well sure, but that goes for other ships as well. I still stand by what I said though. Sometimes you have to look past you own preconceived notions, which is what a lot of haters fail to do.

Edited by TerrorKing, 18 July 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

What's so "broken" about these arguments?

Give me a commonly used argument for NS, and I will be happy to tell you.

And maybe that's because they absolutely believe that their argument is right and they see absolutely no fault with it.

Which is the very source of the problem. If the argument truly holds water, then it will stand up to scrutiny, and "belief" is unnecessary.

But that's exactly what I said. If you take an argument that somebody else made and you test it properly before actually using it, then what's the problem?

That all depends on what "proper tests" you put it through. And given that the vast majority of arguments I've heard from pairing shippers are subject to multiple logical fallacies, I'd have to say that no such tests have been made.

That's just your opinon. I'm sure there's a lot of people on this very site who would disagree with you.

Of course there are, because many of them are regurgitating that same tired arguments over and over, confusing the thinking that others have done for them for their own. They don't care if it sounds logical, only if it sounds convincing to them.

It's called a hypothesis.

No, it isn't. A hypothesis is an educated guess based on previously confirmed data. Testing the hypothesis is to attempt to DISPROVE it, not to search for evidence to prove it. And by the way, can I ask, why are you trying to apply the scientific method to this? It doesn't apply. The only things that need apply here are what is known either from Kishimoto's own statements or deliberate demonstration in the manga, and the rules of logic. Nothing more.

Except that I have actually seen NS shippers who do think like that.

Ok, and what are their defenses? Do they have any concern for Sakura as a character whatsoever? Or do they only see her as the prize that Naruto deserves?

Of course some NS shippers would be concerned about Naruto getting the woman he loves. Naruto loves Sakura but right now, there is no definite evidence that Sakura loves him, in fct it's quite the opposite.

Exactly. Now, tell that to all of the sycophantic shippers that need nothing more than "warm smiles" and weak parallels to convince them of Sakura's absolute affection and devotion to him as a love interest.

To tell you the truth, the main reason I'm a member of this site is becasue I was tired of the pairing war. I was tired of people putting others down for daring to have a different opinion/preference than them and most of all, I was tired of people putting down Sakura . I just wanted a nice and friendly place where I could talk about NS with like minded people. As long as I'm aware that my pairing isn't all sunshine and rainbows (which I do btw) then I don't see the problem.

The reason I joined here is because I was directed here by a girl I really like and care for, and I wanted to make her happy. But it stands now that I favor no one pairing over the other based on any personal sentiments. The only reason I believe this pairing will happen, regardless of whether or not I think it should, is because it is the one that fits most neatly in with the development of the story and does not derail any character growth. I did not join because I swoon when Sakura and Naruto meet eyes and smile, as do a great deal of the people here. And if those are what you call "friendly, like-minded individuals," then I think you are mistaken. They are as guilty for character bashing as anyone else, even if they think they aren't doing it. I can't tell you how many loaded questions I've seen posed here either about Hinata or comparing Hinata with Sakura, and how predictable the responses were.

Well sure, but that goes for other ships as well. I still stand by what I said though. Sometimes you have to look past you own preconceived notions, which is what a lot of haters fail to do.

As far as I'm concerned, it's what all people who actually identify themselves as "shippers" fail to do. That's how fanaticism and "enemy camps" come about. You can argue all day about why you like character X, or why you don't like character Y, or why character Z would be better off with character X instead of character Y. All of that is personal opinion, what you like or don't like. But as soon as you start deluding yourself into stupid conspiracies and begging the question, that's when you become a fanatic. These stupid theories about how the animation team has a NH bias, and about how Kishimoto makes X happen to troll the fans, are all garbage. And they are produced by the minds of fanatics who watch only in hopes of their desired outcome instead of watching without expectation and willingness to be surprised.

[TerrorKing]

Give me a commonly used argument for NS, and I will be happy to tell you.

There are multiple instances throughtout the manga which strongly suggest that Sakura's feelings for Naruto may go beyond mere friendship, such as when she asked if she looked more womanly.

Which is the very source of the problem. If the argument truly holds water, then it will stand up to scrutiny, and "belief" is unnecessary.

That's not what i'm saying. If I believe that 2+2 =4 and someone comes along and says that 2+2=5 then I won't just suddenly that going "OMG you're right". I will consider my opponents argument and then consider my own argument and then I will eventually decide that my own argument is the right one.

That all depends on what "proper tests" you put it through. And given that the vast majority of arguments I've heard from pairing shippers are subject to multiple logical fallacies, I'd have to say that no such tests have been made.

Of course there are, because many of them are regurgitating that same tired arguments over and over, confusing the thinking that others have done for them for their own. They don't care if it sounds logical, only if it sounds convincing to them.

Yeah, but most shipping arguments are based on speculation anyway.

No, it isn't. A hypothesis is an educated guess based on previously confirmed data. Testing the hypothesis is to attempt to DISPROVE it, not to search for evidence to prove it. And by the way, can I ask, why are you trying to apply the scientific method to this? It doesn't apply. The only things that need apply here are what is known either from Kishimoto's own statements or deliberate demonstration in the manga, and the rules of logic. Nothing more.

I dunno. For fun I guess? No, a hypothesis is, or can be, a statement based on observation. So for example, if someone really likes NaruSaku, they go through the manga to see if there's any logical evidence to support it. I know it's a bit of a stretch but that's how I came to be a true NS supporter. At first, I liked the couple because I thought it was cute and I liked the unique realtionship they had. It wasn't until I became "reqcquianted" with some of the more rabid NS/Sakura haters that I started to consider if NS even had a logical chance of happening. As it turns out, it did.

Ok, and what are their defenses? Do they have any concern for Sakura as a character whatsoever? Or do they only see her as the prize that Naruto deserves?

They don't really care about her. They only wan't her to end up with Naruto because she's the girl he likes and they wouldn't mind if she had to go through a very brutal humilation conga before finally ending up with Naruto.

Exactly. Now, tell that to all of the sycophantic shippers that need nothing more than "warm smiles" and weak parallels to convince them of Sakura's absolute affection and devotion to him as a love interest.

Yeah, some people really do read to much into things. I still think the parallels are legitimate arguments though.

The reason I joined here is because I was directed here by a girl I really like and care for, and I wanted to make her happy. But it stands now that I favor no one pairing over the other based on any personal sentiments. The only reason I believe this pairing will happen, regardless of whether or not I think it should, is because it is the one that fits most neatly in with the development of the story and does not derail any character growth. I did not join because I swoon when Sakura and Naruto meet eyes and smile, as do a great deal of the people here.

Yeah and if that's how they like to steer their ship then so be it. If you only care about logic and cold hard facts then that's fine. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

And if those are what you call "friendly, like-minded individuals," then I think you are mistaken. They are as guilty for character bashing as anyone else, even if they think they aren't doing it. I can't tell you how many loaded questions I've seen posed here either about Hinata or comparing Hinata with Sakura, and how predictable the responses were.

I know that no shipping camp is truly devoid of loud mouthed fanatics who constantly bash on other characters and scream "CANON" everytime the characters they ship as much as look at each other. I know that NS fans can be just as bad as other ships. I knew that even before I joined this site and that haven't changed, because so far, I have seen no evidence suggesting otherwise.

As far as I'm concerned, it's what all people who actually identify themselves as "shippers" fail to do. That's how fanaticism and "enemy camps" come about. You can argue all day about why you like character X, or why you don't like character Y, or why character Z would be better off with character X instead of character Y. All of that is personal opinion, what you like or don't like. But as soon as you start deluding yourself into stupid conspiracies and begging the question, that's when you become a fanatic. These stupid theories about how the animation team has a NH bias, and about how Kishimoto makes X happen to troll the fans, are all garbage. And they are produced by the minds of fanatics who watch only in hopes of their desired outcome instead of watching without expectation and willingness to be surprised.

Pierrot isn't trying to push NH, but it pretty obvious that when it comes to fillers, that they have no kittening idea what they're doing. I don't just mean in terms of shipping, I mean in terms of everything. Powers, lore, canon, character interactions, characters traits etc. etc. Still, at the end of the day, it's just fan service or "filler" so it doesn't really matter. If it looked like the anime was deliberately going in a different direction from the manga, then I would be worried, but as it stands that seems to not be the case. So no worries.

[PachucoDesigns]

There are multiple instances throughtout the manga which strongly suggest that Sakura's feelings for Naruto may go beyond mere friendship, such as when she asked if she looked more womanly.

I find this to be the run-to example for the NS insistence that she sees him as more than a friend. Granted, it may have been slightly flirty. But, then again, it had also been 2 1/2 important years in their growth and maturity. And only in that case have we ever heard her ask Naruto's opinion about her, let alone about her physical appearance. Its significance seems more in a "glad to see you, look how much you've grown" gesture rather than any type of seduction. She, after all, already knew that she had him in the palm of her hand. And what, exactly, are these other "multiple instances" that do not only involve smiles, tears, or someone else's near observation that she "really lo--?"

That's not what i'm saying. If I believe that 2+2 =4 and someone comes along and says that 2+2=5 then I won't just suddenly that going "OMG you're right". I will consider my opponents argument and then consider my own argument and then I will eventually decide that my own argument is the right one.

And that is a poor example. Because there is no speculation at all about 2+2=4. It is a demonstrable fact, and we've known it since before the dawn of civilization. To claim that it is 5 is an outrageous one, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In this case, especially because both sides are largely based on speculation, it would take much more consideration on your part when faced with an objection. To truly consider it, you would have to drop your bias altogether, step back to objectivity, and re-evaluate everything you have come to think about the basis of that pairing, especially where their proposal is relevant.

Yeah, but most shipping arguments are based on speculation anyway.

Exactly.

I dunno. For fun I guess? No, a hypothesis is, or can be, a statement based on observation. So for example, if someone really likes NaruSaku, they go through the manga to see if there's any logical evidence to support it. I know it's a bit of a stretch but that's how I came to be a true NS supporter. At first, I liked the couple because I thought it was cute and I liked the unique realtionship they had. It wasn't until I became "reqcquianted" with some of the more rabid NS/Sakura haters that I started to consider if NS even had a logical chance of happening. As it turns out, it did.

No, man, observation is the step that comes before hypothesis. A hypothesis is a proposal of what that observation means. "Heavier objects fall at the same rate as lighter objects" is the observation. "The mass of an object does not alter gravity's effect" is the hypothesis. The proper thing to do is to observe all of the contact Naruto has had with all potential mates in the series, then weigh the significance of each before you filter any of them through what you like versus what you don't. As it turns out, this route still leads to NaruSaku. But it was an objective way to get there.

They don't really care about her. They only wan't her to end up with Naruto because she's the girl he likes and they wouldn't mind if she had to go through a very brutal humilation conga before finally ending up with Naruto.

Then what is their take on the rejection of Sakura's confession? Do they believe she was being truthful?

Yeah, some people really do read to much into things. I still think the parallels are legitimate arguments though.

And I really don't. The links are loose and frail, and they're grasping at straws. Kushina is largely like Sakura, but mostly in the hot temper. Aside from when she was pregnant, we never saw much of her caring side. She was also never timid about being picked on, nor did she ever hope for acceptance or admiration so much as respect, and even fear, if necessary. Plus, even if we can say that Kushina is like Sakura, Naruto is nothing like Minato. He was cool, level-headed, and in no way clumsy. He came off as that proud elite that he was, much like Sasuke, although not dark in personality. In this, the "parallel" actually works against NS. The supposed parallel between Tsunade and Jiraiya is also flawed. Namely, Naruto never quarreled with Sakura. Sakura did not have another love interest that returned her feelings. And even if these were true, we never saw Tsunade actually admit to loving Jiraiya. Not even in their middle-age, and not even after he died. That, too, works against NS. The "parallels" argument is thoroughly broken and ill thought out. It only works when you cherry pick the details that are in your favor and ignore those that are not.

Yeah and if that's how they like to steer their ship then so be it. If you only care about logic and cold hard facts then that's fine. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

And those who don't give any significance to them do not deserve to be taken seriously when they claim to be so sure that their pairing is inevitable. Even in the case of NS. I don't care if they agree or not. The moment that someone says they do not care about objective fact, they openly admit that there is no reason to believe them.

I know that no shipping camp is truly devoid of loud mouthed fanatics who constantly bash on other characters and scream "CANON" everytime the characters they ship as much as look at each other. I know that NS fans can be just as bad as other ships. I knew that even before I joined this site and that haven't changed, because so far, I have seen no evidence suggesting otherwise.

Good. So long as you understand it. Because this website is loaded with that exact type.

Pierrot isn't trying to push NH, but it pretty obvious that when it comes to fillers, that they have no kittening idea what they're doing. I don't just mean in terms of shipping, I mean in terms of everything. Powers, lore, canon, character interactions, characters traits etc. etc. Still, at the end of the day, it's just fan service or "filler" so it doesn't really matter. If it looked like the anime was deliberately going in a different direction from the manga, then I would be worried, but as it stands that seems to not be the case. So no worries.

And I'm going to tell you the exact same thing I have told all of them. That is not how an animation team works. Decisions about what will or will not happen in any animated production, long before the storyboards and x-sheets hit the floor, are made far above the animators heads by a single person. The author of the script. Then, after it's edited and approved, we start seeing development of key scenes and transitions. Then the production of storyboards. Then voice acting and x-sheets. Then key frames. Then inbetweens and pencil tests. Then final renderings and editorial screening. Then final cuts. Then, and only then, is it released. The animation team itself has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the story. If you want to blame anyone at all, blame the person/persons writing the scripts. And mind you, all of these things are filtered through market tests. Whatever it is about the manga with which the general readers identify and like. Be the shippers or not.

And for the record, I have yet to see once where they made a grievous error in any lore, powers, or character traits that haven't been whined about solely by shippers, and only against those involved in their pairings.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 18 July 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[TerrorKing]

I find this to be the run-to example for the NS insistence that she sees him as more than a friend. Granted, it may have been slightly flirty. But, then again, it had also been 2 1/2 important years in their growth and maturity. And only in that case have we ever heard her ask Naruto's opinion about her, let alone about her physical appearance. Its significance seems more in a "glad to see you, look how much you've grown" gesture rather than any type of seduction.

Indeed. That is one way of looking at it.

She, after all, already knew that she had him in the palm of her hand.

How?

And what, exactly, are these other "multiple instances" that do not only involve smiles, tears, or someone else's near observation that she "really lo--?"

None. But then again, smiles, tears and external observation is good enough, at least for speculation.

And that is a poor example. Because there is no speculation at all about 2+2=4. It is a demonstrable fact, and we've known it since before the dawn of civilization. To claim that it is 5 is an outrageous one, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

True.

In this case, especially because both sides are largely based on speculation, it would take much more consideration on your part when faced with an objection. To truly consider it, you would have to drop your bias altogether, step back to objectivity, and re-evaluate everything you have come to think about the basis of that pairing, especially where their proposal is relevant.

Which is exactly what I meant when I said that I would first consider my opponents argument and then consider my own argument.

Exactly.

Which is why I think it's pointless to try and always apply things like hard logic to shipping arguments.

No, man, observation is the step that comes before hypothesis. A hypothesis is a proposal of what that observation means.

Which is what I just said.

"Heavier objects fall at the same rate as lighter objects" is the observation. "The mass of an object does not alter gravity's effect" is the hypothesis. The proper thing to do is to observe all of the contact Naruto has had with all potential mates in the series, then weigh the significance of each before you filter any of them through what you like versus what you don't. As it turns out, this route still leads to NaruSaku. But it was an objective way to get there.

"There seems to be a certain chemistry between Naruto and Sakura" is the observation. "Naruto and Sakura will end up together" is the hypothesis.

Then what is their take on the rejection of Sakura's confession? Do they believe she was being truthful?

I'm not sure. I've only ever encountered these types of fans through fanfics and none of them ever really touched upon her confession.

And I really don't. The links are loose and frail, and they're grasping at straws. Kushina is largely like Sakura, but mostly in the hot temper. Aside from when she was pregnant, we never saw much of her caring side. She was also never timid about being picked on, nor did she ever hope for acceptance or admiration so much as respect, and even fear, if necessary. Plus, even if we can say that Kushina is like Sakura, Naruto is nothing like Minato. He was cool, level-headed, and in no way clumsy. He came off as that proud elite that he was, much like Sasuke, although not dark in personality. In this, the "parallel" actually works against NS. The supposed parallel between Tsunade and Jiraiya is also flawed. Namely, Naruto never quarreled with Sakura. Sakura did not have another love interest that returned her feelings. And even if these were true, we never saw Tsunade actually admit to loving Jiraiya. Not even in their middle-age, and not even after he died. That, too, works against NS. The "parallels" argument is thoroughly broken and ill thought out. It only works when you cherry pick the details that are in your favor and ignore those that are not.

And what exactly is so wrong with cherry picking? Even though MinaKushi and JiraTsu isn't 100% like NaruSaku, you still can't deny that obvious similarities between them and that should still count for something.

And those who don't give any significance to them do not deserve to be taken seriously when they claim to be so sure that their pairing is inevitable. Even in the case of NS. I don't care if they agree or not. The moment that someone says they do not care about objective fact, they openly admit that there is no reason to believe them.

If you only look at things through cold hard facts, then none of the big three really has any chance of happening. But please, enlighten me. Tell me why you think NS will happen.

And I'm going to tell you the exact same thing I have told all of them. That is not how an animation team works. Decisions about what will or will not happen in any animated production, long before the storyboards and x-sheets hit the floor, are made far above the animators heads by a single person. The author of the script. Then, after it's edited and approved, we start seeing development of key scenes and transitions. Then the production of storyboards. Then voice acting and x-sheets. Then key frames. Then inbetweens and pencil tests. Then final renderings and editorial screening. Then final cuts. Then, and only then, is it released. The animation team itself has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the story. If you want to blame anyone at all, blame the person/persons writing the scripts. And mind you, all of these things are filtered through market tests. Whatever it is about the manga with which the general readers identify and like. Be the shippers or not.

Even so, my point still stands. Also, when people talk about how Pierrot is biased towards NH, they don't mean the actual animation team. They're not stupid. They know how these things work and they know that these kinds of decisions aren't made by the animators, but instead by the "higher ups".

And for the record, I have yet to see once where they made a grievous error in any lore, powers, or character traits that haven't been whined about solely by shippers, and only against those involved in their pairings.

Naruto episode 151. Now Hinata can suddenly use the Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms technique. But wait. Now she can also shoot small chakra lasers from the palm of her hands. But wait. She can also control the size of these small chakra lasers. But wait. This new technique is essentially like Neji's Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven, except that this is both an absolute defense and an extremely effective offensive technique. So basically Hinata just surpassed Neji, you know, a genius. Yeah I know that a big part of the series revolves around how, with hard work, you can surpass anyone. Even a genius. Still, this is ridiculous.

And so what if it's only "shipping" things that are the victim of this? It's still a distortion of Kishi's work.

Edited by TerrorKing, 18 July 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

How?

What do you mean how? How not? At what point in either series has she not been completely aware that Naruto is in love with her? She could not possibly be that dense. She knows damn well that he is at her every command if he thinks for a second that she really does return his feelings.

None. But then again, smiles, tears and external observation is good enough, at least for speculation.

But not enough if you intend to convince anyone other than the bobble-heads who were already thinking and saying the same thing.

Which is why I think it's pointless to try and always apply things like hard logic to shipping arguments.

No, it isn't. Speculation can easily be weighed with logic. That is what logic is for. What you mean to say is that people who have subscribed to nonsense do not want to apply hard logic because, to them, it's a buzz kill.

"There seems to be a certain chemistry between Naruto and Sakura" is the observation. "Naruto and Sakura will end up together" is the hypothesis.

And that observation is purely subjective. To many, Sakura seems to be fighting that chemistry for all she has, and does not return Naruto's feelings in the manner that her delivers them.

And what exactly is so wrong with cherry picking? Even though MinaKushi and JiraTsu isn't 100% like NaruSaku, you still can't deny that obvious similarities between them and that should still count for something.

Cherry picking is a horrific fallacy. And yes, I can deny the similarities between them, because the dissimilarities cancel them out. You cannot say, "Oh, they're totally similar! Except for these parts, but pay those no mind."

If you only look at things through cold hard facts, then none of the big three really has any chance of happening. But please, enlighten me. Tell me why you think NS will happen.

And that is where you are absolutely wrong. NS is the logical conclusion, especially if you know anything about story and character development work. What we had is a love triangle between Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke. Sakura\'s unwarranted adoration went entirely to Sasuke until he finally abandoned the village as he was bound to do all along, thereby showing her exactly what the village and their time together meant to him in comparison to his goal. When he left, she became distraught, and it was through Naruto\'s promise to her that she came to understand once and for all how much he cared for her, and also how much retrieving Sasuke meant to him as well.

Seeing him return in shame, badly injured, she also saw his dedication to the task for its own sake and not just for hers. So, what was once her problem because their shared problem, and their shared goal. In this, she had no choice but to follow Naruto closely and witness his determination and growth first hand. And not only did she witness it, she came to depend on it for survival and for hope, and she became motivated by it, determined to return the favor in whatever way she could. She was forced to recognize the sacrifice he made for her, and for everyone for whom he cares.

What was once an annoyance became a circumstantial cooperation, which then became a willing camaraderie, which then became a friendship. When a key piece of that friendship became sundered from them, that friendship became an emotional and survivalist co-dependency, which became a much more meaningful and interactive connection, forcing each other to grow and recognize each other\'s progress. And through this, she became more involved with Naruto's struggle than she ever was with Sasuke's. This separated her old infatuation with a new emotional attachment. The only logical step from here is forward, and a bond that cannot be broken. To fall at Sasuke's feet in love and adoration now would be to betray all of the feelings she came to understand in him, to be selfish, which is something she has been desperately trying to overcome.

That is why.

Even so, my point still stands. Also, when people talk about how Pierrot is biased towards NH, they don't mean the actual animation team. They're not stupid. They know how these things work and they know that these kinds of decisions aren't made by the animators, but instead by the "higher ups".

And the shippers only see what they want to see. To give Hinata any attention at all is, to these fanatics, to take away from the attention Sakura has been given. God forbid they should show her with the ability to be strong and dependable.

Naruto episode 151. Now Hinata can suddenly use the Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms technique. But wait. Now she can also shoot small chakra lasers from the palm of her hands. But wait. She can also control the size of these small chakra lasers. But wait. This new technique is essentially like Neji\'s Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven, except that this is both an absolute defense and an extremely effective offensive technique. So basically Hinata just surpassed Neji, you know, a genius. Yeah I know that a big part of the series revolves around how, with hard work, you can surpass anyone. Even a genius. Still, this is ridiculous.

And so what if it's only "shipping" things that are the victim of this? It's still a distortion of Kishi's work.

Neji's Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven was never his alone. It is a technique shared by the entire Hyuga clan. The key components to it are the byakkugan and the jyuken, both of which she had. Neji's technique is both offensive and defensive. Or, perhaps you didn't notice how it butchered Naruto\'s shadow clones, or how it brushed off enemy shinobi like so much dust when his uncle used it to defend the village? Her technique is simply a variant of his. It is not a distortion of his work. It takes from all of the principles that have been established in the Hyuga clan as described in the manga. And you\'re saying he cannot be matched or surpassed because he is a genius? Do you not remember Naruto stomping him into the ground? Do you not remember Naruto\'s key philosophy that the strength to never give up makes the impossible possible? Or that hard work can cultivate skill comparable or superior to the natural talents of a genius? Are you forgetting all of this?

It is not a distortion. It is a bunch of butt hurt NS fans that believe Hinata deserves absolutely no glorification whatsoever. They only want her to be portrayed as weak and useless, because they think it pushes their argument for their pairing. What the anime did was in no way an insult to his work. It was a tribute. And I guarantee you nobody would have complained had it been anyone else shown with a new technique not canon to the manga.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 18 July 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[TerrorKing]

What do you mean how? How not? At what point in either series has she not been completely aware that Naruto is in love with her? She could not possibly be that dense. She knows damn well that he is at her every command if he thinks for a second that she really does return his feelings.

Chapter 458 says hi.

But not enough if you intend to convince anyone other than the bobble-heads who were already thinking and saying the same thing.

Yes it is. I have had plenty of encounters with fans of other ships who have indeed acknowledged that Naruto and Sakura are becoming closer and that NS has plenty of mutual development. Something that both SS and NH sorely lacks.

No, it isn't. Speculation can easily be weighed with logic. That is what logic is for. What you mean to say is that people who have subscribed to nonsense do not want to apply hard logic because, to them, it's a buzz kill.

Of course, As long as people are being realistic with their speculation and keep in mind that they might be wrong, then all is good. I said hard logic. Some logic is obviously needed, even if it is just a speculation. Otherwise, things would quickly get out of hand.

And that observation is purely subjective. To many, Sakura seems to be fighting that chemistry for all she has, and does not return Naruto's feelings in the manner that her delivers them.

And they are wrong. Even though there is no concrete evidence to suggest that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are romantic in nature, she still very much appreciates his frienship and having him in her life. That is a fact.

Cherry picking is a horrific fallacy. And yes, I can deny the similarities between them, because the dissimilarities cancel them out. You cannot say, "Oh, they're totally similar! Except for these parts, but pay those no mind."

I never said that they were "totally similar". I said that there were certain similarities. So no, cherry picking isn't always bad, as long as you're aware that your argument is not 100% sound.

And that is where you are absolutely wrong. NS is the logical conclusion, especially if you know anything about story and character development work. What we had is a love triangle between Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke. Sakura\'s unwarranted adoration went entirely to Sasuke until he finally abandoned the village as he was bound to do all along, thereby showing her exactly what the village and their time together meant to him in comparison to his goal. When he left, she became distraught, and it was through Naruto\'s promise to her that she came to understand once and for all how much he cared for her, and also how much retrieving Sasuke meant to him as well.

Seeing him return in shame, badly injured, she also saw his dedication to the task for its own sake and not just for hers. So, what was once her problem because their shared problem, and their shared goal. In this, she had no choice but to follow Naruto closely and witness his determination and growth first hand. And not only did she witness it, she came to depend on it for survival and for hope, and she became motivated by it, determined to return the favor in whatever way she could. She was forced to recognize the sacrifice he made for her, and for everyone for whom he cares.

What was once an annoyance became a circumstantial cooperation, which then became a willing camaraderie, which then became a friendship. When a key piece of that friendship became sundered from them, that friendship became an emotional and survivalist co-dependency, which became a much more meaningful and interactive connection, forcing each other to grow and recognize each other\'s progress. And through this, she became more involved with Naruto's struggle than she ever was with Sasuke's. This separated her old infatuation with a new emotional attachment. The only logical step from here is forward, and a bond that cannot be broken. To fall at Sasuke's feet in love and adoration now would be to betray all of the feelings she came to understand in him, to be selfish, which is something she has been desperately trying to overcome.

That is why.

Well, everything you wrote is basically spot on so yeah, that's a pretty solid argument. Still, where's the cold hard logical evidence that Sakura really loves Naruto? You didn't really present anything that I haven't already heard.

And the shippers only see what they want to see. To give Hinata any attention at all is, to these fanatics, to take away from the attention Sakura has been given. God forbid they should show her with the ability to be strong and dependable.

That might be true, but the real reason many people are ticked off by this is not because they don't wan't Hinata to be given any attention. They just don't wan't the animation studio to play favorites, especially not at the expense of other characters.

Neji's Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven was never his alone. It is a technique shared by the entire Hyuga clan. The key components to it are the byakkugan and the jyuken, both of which she had.

I never claimed that it was his alone.

Neji's technique is both offensive and defensive. Or, perhaps you didn't notice how it butchered Naruto\'s shadow clones, or how it brushed off enemy shinobi like so much dust when his uncle used it to defend the village? Her technique is simply a variant of his. It is not a distortion of his work. It takes from all of the principles that have been established in the Hyuga clan as described in the manga.

My point is not that she shouldn't be able to learn it. My point is that she shouldn't be able to both learn it and improve it at the same time.

And you\'re saying he cannot be matched or surpassed because he is a genius? Do you not remember Naruto stomping him into the ground? Do you not remember Naruto\'s key philosophy that the strength to never give up makes the impossible possible? Or that hard work can cultivate skill comparable or superior to the natural talents of a genius? Are you forgetting all of this?

No I didn't and if you read what I wrote properly then you would have known that.

It is not a distortion. It is a bunch of butt hurt NS fans that believe Hinata deserves absolutely no glorification whatsoever. They only want her to be portrayed as weak and useless, because they think it pushes their argument for their pairing.

Maybe, but once again, most people don't really hate Hinata. They just think she's overrated and thus they wan't that fact to be recognized. Please refer to my comment about Hinata getting development at the expense of other characters.

What the anime did was in no way an insult to his work. It was a tribute.

Yes, because flanderizing Sakura's hitting schtick is totally in canon with the manga and will in no way give many fans a completely distorted image of her character or NS.

And I guarantee you nobody would have complained had it been anyone else shown with a new technique not canon to the manga.

Sure they would. Had it been Sakura, all the haters would have immediately gone "NOT CANON!!! NOT CANON!!!" so you're wrong about that. Yes, I have seen fans who act as if the fillers can somehow be counted as canon, but almost everytime that has happened, someone has reminded them that "fillers don't count" and that also goes for NS filler. It's fanservice. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Jenskott]

I have the feeling of this thread has really gone off topic.

[TerrorKing]

I have the feeling of this thread has really gone off topic.

Yeah, I think so too. Perhaps we should stop. I have the feeling that we're not really getting anywhere.

[Nate River]

I have the feeling of this thread has really gone off topic.

It's not in the same reality anymore.

I never said that they were "totally similar". I said that there were certain similarities. So no, cherry picking isn't always bad, as long as you're aware that your argument is not 100% sound.

Just so you know, cherrypicking is bad. You shouldn't just cop to that. You stance does not improve when you follow up that you know your argument isn't sound, especially because you are doing that. It's an invitation for people to stop listening to you. If you want people to believe you are a complete "die for you ship" person, then do this. That's the message it will convey.

Cherrypicking involves the selective use of facts often at the complete ignorance of others often without justification. Basically, you pick what you like and discard the rest because they are inconvenient for you. It's the epitome of picking your conclusion first and grabbing whatever you can to justify it later.

Kishimoto would be a lazy writer indeed, if they were point for point parallels. If you are going to spend time on this it might be better to point out the similarities and argue why those differences either are not (if you don't think they are), why they are immaterial, or why the similarities are more meaningful or important than the differences.

At least then you would address contrary facts.

[MagusKyros]

This is off topic to, but I haven't had a chance to say it.

WASSUP SHRINER!

[TerrorKing]

Just so you know, cherrypicking is bad. You shouldn't just cop to that. You stance does not improve when you follow up that you know your argument isn't sound, especially because you are doing that. It's an invitation for people to stop listening to you. If you want people to believe you are a complete "die for you ship" person, then do this. That's the message it will convey.

Cherrypicking involves the selective use of facts often at the complete ignorance of others often without justification. Basically, you pick what you like and discard the rest because they are inconvenient for you. It's the epitome of picking your conclusion first and grabbing whatever you can to justify it later.

Kishimoto would be a lazy writer indeed, if they were point for point parallels. If you are going to spend time on this it might be better to point out the similarities and argue why those differences either are not (if you don't think they are), why they are immaterial, or why the similarities are more meaningful or important than the differences.

At least then you would address contrary facts.

I'm just saying that, just because there are dissimilarities between two pairings, that doesn't men that they "cancel out" any potential parallels. I suppose I should have used a word other than cherrypicking.

And no, I'm not gonna spend any more time on this. I've already spent enough time as it is. Once again, I let my temper and my stubborness get the better of me and I hate when that happens.

[Phantom_999]

You know I think that a lot of things that are ENORMOUSLY popular tend to get a lot of hate at the same time maybe because fans frequently find newcomers to their fandom annoying and nonsensical' like for instance saying their favorite character is the strongest for no reason other than a no-basis bias, and often say things that annoy the hell of the long time admirers in question due to lack of etiquette, or just mindless fan rambling. Happens here too as far as I can tell; A lot of us are sometimes at odds with new comers that say thing that intentionally or not, start an exchange that eventually leads to verbal abuse and One side or the other gets fed up and just wants to hate what they once enjoyed because the happiness was sapped by some pointless argument. That's My guess anyway. It came up cause my brother said something about that with Anime and video games.

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 July 2012 - 06:26 PM.