756 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

Yeah, the Gamakichi thing was from Part 1 around the Gaara fight, I think? I will try to do the first Shippuden meeting at some point.

I think so too. I know it is in the manga, but I can't remember.

It's these subtle hints that kind of get me. Why did Kishimoto have important characters like Gamakichi, Minato, Sai, and even I believe a scene of Shikamaru acknowleding that Naruto and Sakura were a thing if it meant nothing? I never got this one. Parallels are one thing, but when you have other characters saying "Are you his girlfriend?" or even "Sakura is someone special to Naruto and vice versa" why didn't he go with it? Not one character acknowledged Naruto's supposed "love" for Hinata, but we are meant to believe that people knew all along that he was always in love with HInata?

Like, why would they be wrong? And it is not like Naruto denied it or even Sakura for that matter. She didn't even tell Minato that she wasn't.

[DrK]

I think so too. I know it is in the manga, but I can't remember.

It's these subtle hints that kind of get me. Why did Kishimoto have important characters like Gamakichi, Minato, Sai, and even I believe a scene of Shikamaru acknowleding that Naruto and Sakura were a thing if it meant nothing? I never got this one. Parallels are one thing, but when you have other characters saying "Are you his girlfriend?" or even "Sakura is someone special to Naruto and vice versa" why didn't he go with it? Not one character acknowledged Naruto's supposed "love" for Hinata, but we are meant to believe that people knew all along that he was always in love with HInata?

Like, why would they be wrong? And it is not like Naruto denied it or even Sakura for that matter. She didn't even tell Minato that she wasn't.

The inappropriateness of telling your dead father that someone like your mother is your girlfriend when they ultimately don't become that cannot be overstated. It's not comic relief because Sakura hitting him was. There was nothing funny about Naruto's assertion and in fact he was somewhat sheepish about saying it because he wasn't sure if it was true. The fact that it ultimately ended up not being so is soul-crushingly miserable.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

It's almost like looking back on it Naruto was just telling Minato that so his dead dad would take some comfort in the fact his idiot son actually listened and wouldn't be forever alone or with some "weirdo."

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 28 November 2017 - 08:16 PM.

[Gravenimage]

I'm still wondering if Kishi regrets going with such a kitten up ending. He literally killed the NS development (15 years of development) and went with something that goes against his ideas or the moral of the story. The ending was something that he pulled out of his ass. That's how it looks to me the ending of the manga was the biggest asspull of them all.

[DrK]

I'm still wondering if Kishi regrets going with such a kitten up ending. He literally killed the NS development (15 years of development) and went with something that goes against his ideas or the moral of the story. The ending was something that he pulled out of his ass. That's how it looks to me the ending of the manga was the biggest asspull of them all.

Yup. The scenes I talked about so far and that I will talk about in the future couldn't make it any more obvious because of how little sense it makes in retrospect. If Analyzer or anyone else tries to continue to assert that it was planned, I would encourage people to refrain from even responding. Because the well constructed development of Naruto and Sakura is too good to be soiled by some garbage pro ender argument that is based on trying to stubbornly enjoy something that sucks because you invested so much to get there. Like someone who buys a crappy video game console and tries to convince themselves that it's good.

Edited by DrK, 28 November 2017 - 08:22 PM.

[DrK]

I edited some of the text for the Pain scene about the significance of Naruto showing up after Sakura's cry for help. To make it a little more clear what Sakura was portrayed as going through at the time. I really don't find it possible to overstate the impact it would have had on Sakura. If someone else has another view on it I'm interested to hear it.

 

I didn't think so before, but this really is the NS scene that is the worst to think about given the ending. Everything good about it is ruined and Sakura's actions are completely inexplicable and unrelatable.

 

After the Pain arc, Kishimoto started slowly torturing Sakura. He gradually stripped away her love for Naruto, her independence, her dignity, and her humanity. When the ending came, he finally finished her off. She became a horrible character that even pro-enders don't generally like. And it's an unforgivable disgrace. She became the scapegoat for NH because Kishimoto wanted to steal everything from her and give it to Hinata. But he wanted to do SS as well, so he portrayed her as not wanting any of it despite the fact that this would make her look schizophrenic, obsessed, and pathetic. Because he didn't care at all about her. If anyone says otherwise, they're full of it. It couldn't be any more obvious.

Edited by DrK, 29 November 2017 - 01:53 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

 

Kishimoto said it was planned though. 

 

There is objective truth supporting that (The manga reflects the statement too), and nothing supporting the opposite. Occam's Razor applies here. Why would you fallaciously go for what is not supported?

Kishimoto also said that SS are unhappy and Naruto was guilt-tripped into being with Hinata and you constantly deny this or not take it as fact. Drk, Myself and many of my fellow fans here have more than enough proven this and showed you the interviews. It is not even subjective, it is objective given by the manga, light novels, and movies themselves.

This is also supported by canon material that many fans agree with with Sakura looking miserable and hates talking about her relationship with Sasuke and Naruto the Last showcasing how Naruto needed to be told, put into a genjutsu, and more just to even beging to notice Hinata.

Why do you keep flip flopping between taking what Kishimoto says to heart and then saying Kishimoto doesn't know what he is talking about? Pick one for god's sakes. Either Kishimoto's word is law to you or it isn't. Don't just pick and choose what you want to be real and what is not.

You can't pick because you know that you will be proven wrong. You claim subjective thoughts don't prove facts, but then turn around and say only YOUR subjective views are fact.

You don't believe the truth even if it was told to you.

You'd make a great politican, Analyzer. You're good enough to lie about everything and believe it.

[DrK]

Kishimoto also said that SS are unhappy and Naruto was guilt-tripped into being with Hinata and you constantly deny this or not take it as fact. Drk, Myself and many of my fellow fans here have more than enough proven this and showed you the interviews. It is not even subjective, it is objective given by the manga, light novels, and movies themselves.

This is also supported by canon material that many fans agree with with Sakura looking miserable and hates talking about her relationship with Sasuke and Naruto the Last showcasing how Naruto needed to be told, put into a genjutsu, and more just to even beging to notice Hinata.

Yeah, Sakura and Naruto don't even understand themselves why they are with Hinata and Sasuke. They just know that they don't like it, lol. It's so cruel to Sakura to have Sasuke not be around. At least if he was around all the time she'd always be in the happy, drug-like brainwashed state that we see in Gaiden. Instead she has to deal with existential depression 24/7. She doesn't know why Sasuke makes her feel like she's on drugs. She doesn't know that Kishimoto exists. She just knows that it ruined her life.

Edited by DrK, 29 November 2017 - 02:42 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Ouch....someone call the fire department because I think someone got burned.

Speaking of topics,there was one scene I would like you to look at Drk if you don't mind and that is when Naruto and Sakura first met each other after the two year timeskip. The one where Sakura asks Naruto if she looks more womanly? There was also another small scene with Gamakichi telling that Sakura is "this" to Naruto and he holds up the pinky finger usually meaning the red string of fate. I am sorry, I don't remember what chapter this happens, but when you can I want to hear your words of it. I could give my opinion on it, but I rather hear you or if someone else wants a try to give one.

 

I know what you mean, James, and Konohamaru did it too before the Chunin Exams, so there's 3 people who had thought Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend, giving us an idea that she was meant to end up with him before Kishimoto changed plans midgame because he got too cowardly to stick to his guns.

[James S Cassidy]

Yeah, Sakura and Naruto don't even understand themselves why they are with Hinata and Sasuke. They just know that they don't like it, lol. It's so cruel to Sakura to have Sasuke not be around. At least if he was around all the time she'd always be in the happy, drug-like brainwashed state that we see in Gaiden. Instead she has to deal with existential depression 24/7. She doesn't know why Sasuke makes her feel like she's on drugs. She doesn't know that Kishimoto exists. She just knows that it ruined her life.

 

And what's worse is they hate her for it.

[Gravenimage]

Yup. The scenes I talked about so far and that I will talk about in the future couldn't make it any more obvious because of how little sense it makes in retrospect. If Analyzer or anyone else tries to continue to assert that it was planned, I would encourage people to refrain from even responding. Because the well constructed development of Naruto and Sakura is too good to be soiled by some garbage pro ender argument that is based on trying to stubbornly enjoy something that sucks because you invested so much to get there. Like someone who buys a crappy video game console and tries to convince themselves that it's good.

 

I'm still wondering why Kishi did it. Was he offered a lot of money by Pierot? Did he gave in to his editors and fans demands? Or was it he got tired of his own work and decided to kitten it up? I would never get tire of my own manga because it's my life's work. Kishi put 15 years of his life for this series I really don't want to believe he got tired of it. Maybe he got sicked of the shipping wars and decided to please the majority.

[DrK]

 

I'm still wondering why Kishi did it. Was he offered a lot of money by Pierot? Did he gave in to his editors and fans demands? Or was it he got tired of his own work and decided to kitten it up? I would never get tire of my own manga because it's my life's work. Kishi put 15 years of his life for this series I really don't want to believe he got tired of it. Maybe he got sicked of the shipping wars and decided to please the majority.

I think personally that basically everyone around him just constantly talked about NH. So while he was really against the idea at first (You can tell from that interview where he said "But Sakura's not Hinata"), over time he got brainwashed into it. It's really hard to be the only one that is for something when everyone else is against you. So eventually he's like "Oh well, I guess. It won't be that bad." But it was. It was so bad.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I think Kishi did the opposite of Kubo. People insulted Sakura at every turn no matter how hard Kishi was trying, and it made him bitter. I think it just became so bad and so insurmountable in his opinion that nothing he did with Sakura would make the fans happy, and he just wanted to be done with her, hence her utter destruction.

With Kubo, he got so pissed about the amount of hate Orihime got he featured her more,and ultimately ended the series with her coupled with the main char, something her most ardent haters didnt want.

If Kishi had only had the same passion for his female lead as Kubo had for his characters things could have been better.

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 29 November 2017 - 05:50 PM.

[sushi.]

 

Kishimoto said it was planned though. 

 

There is objective truth supporting that (The manga reflects the statement too), and nothing supporting the opposite. Occam's Razor applies here. Why would you fallaciously go for what is not supported?

Kishi be like

*though*

Edited by sushi., 29 November 2017 - 06:02 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I think Kishi did the opposite of Kubo. People insulted Sakura at every turn no matter how hard Kishi was trying, and it made him bitter. I think it just became so bad and so insurmountable in his opinion that nothing he did with Sakura would make the fans happy, and he just wanted to be done with her, hence her utter destruction.

With Kubo, he got so pissed about the amount of hate Orihime got he featured her more,and ultimately ended the series with her coupled with the main char, something her most ardent haters didnt want.

If Kishi had only had the same passion for his female lead as Kubo had for his characters things could have been better.

 

Not to mention Mr. Kubo also did great development for Orihime, while Kishi let Hinata become stagnant, unable to change and at times feeling worse and thus destroying the potential she had. It's why even if Orihime can have some similarities to Hinata, she is a much better character because she has proper development and isn't just based on her feelings for Ichigo, like Hinata is with her feelings for Naruto. That tells you a lot that Mr. Kubo had a lot of passion for Orihime, especially when he had introduced her way back in the original pilot he worked out for Bleach before it dropped in Shonen Jump :3 

[DrK]

 

Not to mention Mr. Kubo also did great development for Orihime, while Kishi let Hinata become stagnant, unable to change and at times feeling worse and thus destroying the potential she had. It's why even if Orihime can have some similarities to Hinata, she is a much better character because she has proper development and isn't just based on her feelings for Ichigo, like Hinata is with her feelings for Naruto. That tells you a lot that Mr. Kubo had a lot of passion for Orihime, especially when he had introduced her way back in the original pilot he worked out for Bleach before it dropped in Shonen Jump :3 

Yeah, Like I said, I wanted IchiRuki, I still want IchiRuki, but I have to respect the decision Kubo made. Kishimoto didn't make a decision. He did what other people wanted and not what he originally wanted. The whole point of this thread is to make this fact incredibly obvious. Because these scenes have no purpose and also make no sense whatsoever in retrospect.

[James S Cassidy]

 

Not to mention Mr. Kubo also did great development for Orihime, while Kishi let Hinata become stagnant, unable to change and at times feeling worse and thus destroying the potential she had. It's why even if Orihime can have some similarities to Hinata, she is a much better character because she has proper development and isn't just based on her feelings for Ichigo, like Hinata is with her feelings for Naruto. That tells you a lot that Mr. Kubo had a lot of passion for Orihime, especially when he had introduced her way back in the original pilot he worked out for Bleach before it dropped in Shonen Jump :3 

Plus Orihime entire character wasn't a satellite for Ichigo. She cared about him, yeah, but she cared about everyone else too. She wasn't just "Are you okay, Ichigo-kun?" No, she was far more indepth than that.

Again, something Hinata severly lacks.

 

Yeah, Like I said, I wanted IchiRuki, I still want IchiRuki, but I have to respect the decision Kubo made. Kishimoto didn't make a decision. He did what other people wanted and not what he originally wanted. The whole point of this thread is to make this fact incredibly obvious. Because these scenes have no purpose and also make no sense whatsoever in retrospect.

And this right here is my exact same logic for why I can't respect Kishimoto's decision like manyu pro-enders want me to...because it doesn't feel like it was his decision in the first place.

[Phantom_999]

Okay I'll be honest here, and I'll keep it simple. any scene that is presented to me in this thread I give it a 5. no matter which scene, no matter what the interpretations are, I give them all 5. Why you ask? a few reasons actually.

 

1. Can anyone tell me why Hinata couldn't be in the scenes where there are heavy romantic undertones between Naruto and Sakura? Why is it Sakura and not Hinata having those so called "teasing at them being a couple" if Hinata was the one Naruto was meant to be with? It honestly is not that hard to depict Naruto hanging out with Hinata, and going out of his way to spend time with her when he doesn't even need to, to show that he is comfortable with her, is it if that was the intention from the beginning? Sure Hinata, wasn't introduced til chapter 37 of the manga, but after that Kishi really has no excuse. Tell me my peeps, What makes for a convincing couple in any fiction? What makes a couple valid if not accepted in the narrative of any story telling of any kind? If you're thinking what I am thinking, then obviously it is a couple that is shown  being together some of, if not all the time. It is the couple that shows that they are comfortable around each other, that shows that they are happy being together, if there are ever fights, they still stick together through thick and thin. couples that CAN show this without being shoe horned late story are the couples that make  sense, if not the preferred couple in the fans minds.

 

anyway I will type the rest of my reasons later

Edited by Phantom_999, 02 December 2017 - 12:15 AM.

[DrK]

Okay I'll be honest here, and I'll keep it simple. any scene that is presented to me in this thread I give it a 5. no matter which scene, no matter what the interpretations are, I give them all 5. Why you ask? a few reasons actually.

Well yeah, anything with a 3 or higher is unacceptable, but I have to make some kind of distinction between "Why did he even include this if NH was the intention?" and "This is f***ing unforgivable."

Edited by DrK, 29 November 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[winter-serenade]

ooooh I love your analyses on these~

 

One of the things I really like about the hug scene is just how monumental it must have been for Naruto. 

 

Save the village? Check.

 

Be a badass? Check.

 

Meet your mother and father after all these years? Check.

 

Everyone's revived? Check.

 

Acknowledgement from all the villagers and didn't even have to become Hokage? Check-a-mundo.

 

And if that wasn't enough, the hug from Sakura is the delectable icing on the cake. The cherry on top. Because when you think about it, other than his parents, Sakura is the only one who gave Naruto a hug willingly. She was the only one who initiated it. Naruto didn't hug her. She hugged Naruto.

 

I think that's part of the reason why Naruto is so shocked, too, other than it being completely unexpected. I can't stop stressing that Sakura didn't have to hug him but she did anyway, because that's one of the things that makes this scene so powerful for NaruSaku.

 

Bonus being all the villagers blushing in the background :)     whykishimoto