72 replies to this topic

[Nar123]

That chapter was contrived to be the start of the Uchiha's absolution of blame. However in that same chapter we never hear of an edict that states the Uchiha have to live close to where they worked. We weren't told that they couldn't come into the village and be a part of the normal everyday village happenings. In fact they seemed to have isolated themselves quite honestly. Placing all their businesses and what not in their private section of the village. And it wasn't Tobirama's fault that when they were given the authority of the police force that they abused it and thought themselves better than others.

 

What we did learn in that chapter is that basically The Uchiha are a clan of yanderes. They love so much to the point of madness and violence. That was Tobirama's reasoning for not trusting them and was backed up by the past experiences of him and his brother seeing it first hand, which Hashirama also confirmed.

 

But I guess the main reason I didn't place much blame on Tobirama was that no one disputes that whatever he did was for the safety and betterment of the village. What the Uchiha were planning to do was simply out of pride and paranoia. So who honestly is to blame here? Anyway that's just the way I see it, whether you agree or disagree.

 

 

You're looking to deep into it and honestly this is Kishimoto manga, I wonder what is not contrived here in one form or another 

 

Besides most of what you did is in the realm of suppositions of what happened, what was stated in the manga is that:

1)Tobirama isolated the Uchiha due to police forces conditons

2) Some of the citizens began to dislike them

3) The position of police made them become more conceited ( elevated their pride )  which made them want more respect and recognition which they didn't got because Tobirama just put them there for reasons unknown and didn't bother anymore

4) Because the clan was isolated , Madara sympathizers gained strenght 

5) Before Tobirama, the Uchiha were fine in the village, refusing even their leader Madara

6) Tobirama put them there to spy on them or because he genuinely thought that position was good for them? The truth is unclear, the true reason is unknown, so there is no definite answer for that

 

Which this facts, the way I see the only conclusion a person can get is that both parties had a degree of blame in the events that followed, both konoha and the uchiha, everything else is some person having a clear bias for one side or the other

 

I also would like to add that even if Tobirama's intentions were really good, this doesn't change that his decision of putting the Uchiha as police force was what started everything so yeah, even if he supposedly did with good intentions in his mind, he still should take the blame for his actions

Edited by Nar123, 14 July 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[AHK]

Just stop, you're completely changing the fact to fit your own headcanon of the Uchihas being the only ones to blame
 
Not only Tobirama's reason for putting them at the police force is dubious in the first place ( You're just chosing to trust Tobirama's words over Obito's, the objective triuth was never revealed)  but by putting them there and basically isolating them from the rest of the village, he ended up segregrating them, this is a fact said in the story itself and that's why the Madara supporters gained power whithin the clan not because they wanted more power above the one from the police force...
 
This has nothing to do with logic or where the prision should stay, it has to do with relegating the Uchiha to the police and leaving them there, isolated, of course this would end up hurting the pride of the clan, so either way it remains that Tobirama's decision of putting them as the police was a badly thought and badly executed decision which sparked the rebellion within the clan, it could have happened differently though if Tobirama left his biuas behind him which he clearly didn't
 
 
As I have to say yet again before Tobirama's actions as a hokage, the Uchiha were perfectly fine even going against their leader in favour of the village
 
It's clear AHK that your irrational bias hurts your perception and that's a shame....look, I too, don't like the Uchiha and how much attention they got over the entire manga but that's not the reason to completely blame only them for a thing that ultimately didn't even started with them
 
Just think a little like this, there is the leader of a group, he doesn't like a person, so he gives this person something to do and divides him from the group, any prideful person would take an insult from the fact they are being trashed upon by their supposed leader and that they are not being given the respect and recognition they think they deserve
Tobirama's fail was basically like this, even if he ultimately didn't actively spy on them like Obito said ( which I doubt considering he was quite the paranoid) , he isolated them and gave start to the uprising of Madara's supporters, either way you llok everything began due to Tobirama's actions consequently one way or another he is at fault.

Lol pretty sure that the only person I said wasn't to blame was Tobirama. I'm pretty sure that I said multiple times, not just in this thread, that Hiruzen, Danzo, and the Uchiha are equally to blame. But I hate the Uchiha. Just because I disagree, I hate the Uchiha. Even though I blamed certain individuals of Konoha just as equally as the Uchiha, but I'm obviously biased against them.

I love that my argument isn't based on objective truth to you. That I'm simply choosing Tobirama over Obito, yet that's a bad thing. And it's not like you're doing the same thing either. It's not like you're choosing Orochimaru and Obito over Tobirama. But my argument isn't objective. Funnily enough, Tobirama is the only person that was there. Orochimaru wasn't even born. Obito wasn't even born. Obito was even trying to manipulate Sasuke, yet his version is more credible than someone who had no reason to lie. Neither of them were there, yet their stories mean more than someone who was. They weren't there, yet they're an expert on how Tobirama felt. Even though he said that he didn't hate the Uchiha, and was trying to help them be a part of Konoha, Orochimaru says otherwise so he must be right.

"As I have to say yet again before Tobirama's actions as a hokage, the Uchiha were perfectly fine even going against their leader in favour of the village"

Yeah, you're right. It's only when Tobirama didn't give them enough power that they got pissed

He didn't isolate them because, one more time, the Uchiha weren't separated from the village until after Obito attacked. The only thing Tobirama did was place the HQ of the police in the same place as the prison. He did nothing wrong. That is not a wrong action.

Konoha deserves equal blame as the Uchiha. Those that represent Konoha would be Hiruzen, Danzo, and the old goats, because they are the only ones that did wrong. Tobirama gave the Uchiha a chocolate cookie, but there weren't enough chocolate chips for them. That's why they got pissed.

[Nar123]

Lol pretty sure that the only person I said wasn't to blame was Tobirama. I'm pretty sure that I said multiple times, not just in this thread, that Hiruzen, Danzo, and the Uchiha are equally to blame. But I hate the Uchiha. Just because I disagree, I hate the Uchiha. Even though I blamed certain individuals of Konoha just as equally as the Uchiha, but I'm obviously biased against them.

I love that my argument isn't based on objective truth to you. That I'm simply choosing Tobirama over Obito, yet that's a bad thing. And it's not like you're doing the same thing either. It's not like you're choosing Orochimaru and Obito over Tobirama. But my argument isn't objective. Funnily enough, Tobirama is the only person that was there. Orochimaru wasn't even born. Obito wasn't even born. Obito was even trying to manipulate Sasuke, yet his version is more credible than someone who had no reason to lie. Neither of them were there, yet their stories mean more than someone who was. They weren't there, yet they're an expert on how Tobirama felt. Even though he said that he didn't hate the Uchiha, and was trying to help them be a part of Konoha, Orochimaru says otherwise so he must be right.

 

 

 

First thing, you said you believe in what Tobirama said, that's fine but that doesn't mean it was the truth, we don't know if his intention when building the police force was a noble one and we will proabably never will because Kishi didn't give us an information that could truly be taken as truth...so your faith in what Tobirmaa said is irrelevant when he could also be lying to keep face in front of the others 

 

At the same time Obito could be just manipulating Sasuke with his information regarding Tobirama's actions but nevertheless that remains uncomfirmed 

 

What I'm saying is not that I believe Obito, but that I'm giving his information ( and Tobirama's) the benefit of doubt since the matter was never really cleared up and even when he talked about the police force Tobirama never outrighted didn't say he didn't put spies on the clan...the situation is kinda like the matter where we don't know if the uchiha were involved in the kyuubi attack or not, Kishi never revealed these important things to his readers for whatever reason

 

Now I don't understand why are you trying to somehow go against what Orochimaru said when he was clearly on the role of giving off exposition on what Tobirama's actions ended up doing, in front of Tobirama himself no less, if Orochimaru spoke something it wasn't true of course Tobirama would speak against, but no what he tried to do instead was to justify why he put the uchiha there and later he said that he always expected the clan to go beserk one day ( which shows that he clearly wasn't in his right mind to judge the Uchihas as he is clearly biased ) 

 

Futhermore Orochimaru never talked about what Tobirama felt, he talked the consequences of his actions and how the uchiha downfall did begin with him, this is a fact and there is no viable way to say it's a lie since we don't have conflicting informations or other accounts on the matter 

 

So yeah I would appreciate if you stopped trying to deligimitize concrete information to make your point valid

 

 

Now that taken care of...

 

 

"As I have to say yet again before Tobirama's actions as a hokage, the Uchiha were perfectly fine even going against their leader in favour of the village"

Yeah, you're right. It's only when Tobirama didn't give them enough power that they got pissed 

He didn't isolate them because, one more time, the Uchiha weren't separated from the village until after Obito attacked. The only thing Tobirama did was place the HQ of the police in the same place as the prison. He did nothing wrong. That is not a wrong action.

Konoha deserves equal blame as the Uchiha. Those that represent Konoha would be Hiruzen, Danzo, and the old goats, because they are the only ones that did wrong. Tobirama gave the Uchiha a chocolate cookie, but there weren't enough chocolate chips for them. That's why they got pissed.

 

 

 

 

Not really, the Uchihas were fine with Hashirama, even chosing Konoha over Madara ( whose path clearly would've taken the Uchiha in a civil war for more power)  instead they chose loyalty instead of power...is it a coincidence of how much it changed after  once Tobirama took control of the village ?

We see it in flashbacks that Tobirama didn't like the Uchihas, not even a little - fact

their position as the police dept ended up swelling up their pride, segregrating them and making the citizens distrustful of them- fact 

Tobirama's actions strenghtened Madara's supporters within the clan - fact

 

It doesn't matter if in the end Tobirama's motivation was something good, what matters is that his action ended up sparking the feelings of revolution within the clan so I still wonder how can someone say "he did nothing wrong" when he clearly did it, when even the story says so! 

 

Once again I'm not arguing what Tobirama's motivation was, what I'm saying based on concrete evidence from the manga is that Tobirama is to blame because his actions are what sparked up the revolution feeling within the clan...

It doesn't matter if the police tower had tobe in the same place as the jail cell, I'm not arguing against this, I'm saying that this inardevelty segregrated the Uchiha and they, being a proud clan, didn't like the way things were going....it also doesn't matter if Tobirama's intention was giving a "chocolate cookie" to the Uchihas, because even so he failed spectacularly, the Uchihas sure didn't consider what he gave them as a prize...just compare to how they were during Hashirama's reign to how they became during Tobirama's...if they wanted power all along why they didn't just followed Madara and strenghtened him on his quest for world ruling? 

 

In the end the only conclusion a non biased person can get is that yes, Tobirama did something wrong

Edited by Nar123, 18 July 2015 - 07:54 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Everyone is to blame for something, of course. How much blame, on the other hand, is what seems to be more debatable and more what I was asking about given so many people seem to think Tobirama was something like 95% responsible for it all, which I really don't agree with.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Everyone is to blame for something, of course. How much blame, on the other hand, is what seems to be more debatable and more what I was asking about given so many people seem to think Tobirama was something like 95% responsible for it all, which I really don't agree with.

 

I see it as 50-50, really. Since A), Tobirama tried his hardest to give the Uchiha important roles in the Leaf when he became the Second Hokage, and B) in the long run, they let their own hate get the better of them, thinking he allowed his own bigotry to cause them to feel ostracized and alienated.

[Nar123]

Everyone is to blame for something, of course. How much blame, on the other hand, is what seems to be more debatable and more what I was asking about given so many people seem to think Tobirama was something like 95% responsible for it all, which I really don't agree with.

 

Neither do I 

 

But he definitely has part of the blame

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Yeah, he definitely played a role, good intentions or otherwise, but I just wish more people would see beyond just what happened as a result.

Even Hashirama falls under that same scope when it came to essentially creating the Jinchuriki system and simply handing out the Biju among the villages like objects. He had the good intention of trying to keep one village from having all the power, but obviously, the results were not very good, both for the Biju and the ones who would become their Jinchuriki. And even Minato's decision in making Naruto Kurama's Jinchuriki could have easily blown up in his face afterwards.

I guess it's easy to demonize things in hindsight and to say "I would never have done that" or "I would have done things differently", now that we already see (one of) the potential result(s) of that decision having already been made. On the other hand, the ones in hindsight who made those decisions can't always foresee the results of their decisions decades down the line and that's where things get much more muddied.

[Nar123]

Yeah, he definitely played a role, good intentions or otherwise, but I just wish more people would see beyond just what happened as a result.

Even Hashirama falls under that same scope when it came to essentially creating the Jinchuriki system and simply handing out the Biju among the villages like objects. He had the good intention of trying to keep one village from having all the power, but obviously, the results were not very good, both for the Biju and the ones who would become their Jinchuriki. And even Minato's decision in making Naruto Kurama's Jinchuriki could have easily blown up in his face afterwards.

I guess it's easy to demonize things in hindsight and to say "I would never have done that" or "I would have done things differently", now that we already see (one of) the potential result(s) of that decision having already been made. On the other hand, the ones in hindsight who made those decisions can't always foresee the results of their decisions decades down the line and that's where things get much more muddied.

 

Good points...Hashirama has a part of the blame in the way the system shaped itself too...too bad we never got too muvh info on how it changed or even if it changed at all

[AHK]

 

 

First thing, you said you believe in what Tobirama said, that's fine but that doesn't mean it was the truth, we don't know if his intention when building the police force was a noble one and we will proabably never will because Kishi didn't give us an information that could truly be taken as truth...so your faith in what Tobirmaa said is irrelevant when he could also be lying to keep face in front of the others 

 

At the same time Obito could be just manipulating Sasuke with his information regarding Tobirama's actions but nevertheless that remains uncomfirmed 

 

What I'm saying is not that I believe Obito, but that I'm giving his information ( and Tobirama's) the benefit of doubt since the matter was never really cleared up and even when he talked about the police force Tobirama never outrighted didn't say he didn't put spies on the clan...the situation is kinda like the matter where we don't know if the uchiha were involved in the kyuubi attack or not, Kishi never revealed these important things to his readers for whatever reason

 

Now I don't understand why are you trying to somehow go against what Orochimaru said when he was clearly on the role of giving off exposition on what Tobirama's actions ended up doing, in front of Tobirama himself no less, if Orochimaru spoke something it wasn't true of course Tobirama would speak against, but no what he tried to do instead was to justify why he put the uchiha there and later he said that he always expected the clan to go beserk one day ( which shows that he clearly wasn't in his right mind to judge the Uchihas as he is clearly biased ) 

 

Futhermore Orochimaru never talked about what Tobirama felt, he talked the consequences of his actions and how the uchiha downfall did begin with him, this is a fact and there is no viable way to say it's a lie since we don't have conflicting informations or other accounts on the matter 

 

So yeah I would appreciate if you stopped trying to deligimitize concrete information to make your point valid

 

 

Now that taken care of...

 

 

Not really, the Uchihas were fine with Hashirama, even chosing Konoha over Madara ( whose path clearly would've taken the Uchiha in a civil war for more power)  instead they chose loyalty instead of power...is it a coincidence of how much it changed after  once Tobirama took control of the village ?

We see it in flashbacks that Tobirama didn't like the Uchihas, not even a little - fact

their position as the police dept ended up swelling up their pride, segregrating them and making the citizens distrustful of them- fact 

Tobirama's actions strenghtened Madara's supporters within the clan - fact

 

It doesn't matter if in the end Tobirama's motivation was something good, what matters is that his action ended up sparking the feelings of revolution within the clan so I still wonder how can someone say "he did nothing wrong" when he clearly did it, when even the story says so! 

 

Once again I'm not arguing what Tobirama's motivation was, what I'm saying based on concrete evidence from the manga is that Tobirama is to blame because his actions are what sparked up the revolution feeling within the clan...

It doesn't matter if the police tower had tobe in the same place as the jail cell, I'm not arguing against this, I'm saying that this inardevelty segregrated the Uchiha and they, being a proud clan, didn't like the way things were going....it also doesn't matter if Tobirama's intention was giving a "chocolate cookie" to the Uchihas, because even so he failed spectacularly, the Uchihas sure didn't consider what he gave them as a prize...just compare to how they were during Hashirama's reign to how they became during Tobirama's...if they wanted power all along why they didn't just followed Madara and strenghtened him on his quest for world ruling? 

 

In the end the only conclusion a non biased person can get is that yes, Tobirama did something wrong

Yet the exact opposite could be true, but you ignore that and tell me that it’s irrelevant, meanwhile placing faith in someone that wasn’t there and another that was confirmed trying to manipulate Sasuke. Okay.

Tobirama never said that he didn’t put spies in the Uchiha, but there is zero evidence to suggest that he did either.

Talking about Orochimaru is fine, but you’re taking what happened as if the result was the intention of Tobirama. He did not do wrong by the Uchiha, whatever Orochimaru says regarding the outcome is irrelevant. He didn’t do anything that caused the Uchiha strife, other than giving them power that wasn’t enough, which Orochimaru alluded to, and you ignore.

I’m not delegitimizing anything, only your attempts at trying to demonize Tobirama without due cause other than the words of someone who was lying and someone who wasn’t actually there to see the situation unfold himself.

As for your facts, theyre laughable. Tobirama didn’t hate the Uchiha, his best subordinate was an Uchiha himself. He hated Madara. Swelled pride on the part of the Uchiha isn’t his fault, and he did not under any circumstance segregate them. Madara’s supporters strengthened because Tobirama didn’t hand them enough power, that’s not his fault.

Your evidence is anything but concrete. Tobirama didn’t cause anything, the cause was the Uchiha wanting more power and Obito attacking the leaf. I love that just because I don’t agree with you, I’m biased. Truly lol worthy.

[Nar123]

Yet the exact opposite could be true, but you ignore that and tell me that it’s irrelevant, meanwhile placing faith in someone that wasn’t there and another that was confirmed trying to manipulate Sasuke. Okay.

 

 

You fail to recognize that I never I outright said that I believed in what Obito said, however I made it clear that there is a lack of information regarding what happened and either version could be the true one... while you, on the other hand, obviously favors the Tobirama version and still keeps saying that Obito was just lying despite the fact that there is no clear confirmation that he was indeed lying in the manga 

 

 

 

Tobirama never said that he didn’t put spies in the Uchiha, but there is zero evidence to suggest that he did either.

 

 

Obito's words say that he did it, it would also fit Tobirama's character and personality, Tobirama also never outright denied the fact

However is is still a foggy aspect because it lacks clarification, so we can't say for sure that he was spying and we also can't say that he wasn't spying, you get me?

 

Either way, though this is irrelevant to the fact that it was Tobirama's actions disregarding the motive, that started the revolution talk within the clan

 

 

Talking about Orochimaru is fine, but you’re taking what happened as if the result was the intention of Tobirama. He did not do wrong by the Uchiha, whatever Orochimaru says regarding the outcome is irrelevant. He didn’t do anything that caused the Uchiha strife, other than giving them power that wasn’t enough, which Orochimaru alluded to, and you ignore.

 

 

 

C'mon, I never said that Tobirama's intention was to actively make the Uchiha hate konoha, what he did was just a bad decision as a leader that's all, as I said the motive for his decision isn't really clear, nevertheless it was still a bad decision that backfired spectacularly because it ended up separating the Uchiha from Konoha and making the Madara sympathizers stronger within the clan

 

Orochimaru just said that people with authority tended to become conceited and that together with the disrespect from the villagers and the segregration ended up starting the revolution talks within the Uchiha, ultimately it all boils down to the fact that all of this happened because Tobirama made the Uchiha into the police force for whatever reason, thus he deserves to receive part of the blame for what happened afterwards since everything fundamentally started with his decisions

 

 

 

 

I’m not delegitimizing anything, only your attempts at trying to demonize Tobirama without due cause other than the words of someone who was lying and someone who wasn’t actually there to see the situation unfold himself.

 

 

 

 

Where did you get this? Not once in the manga it was actually said that Obito was lying, Tobirama never actually confirmed or denied if he had spies on them, the secrets of the past of the Uchiha could've gotten to Obito in another way, remember that he was  Madara's pupil. So I would like you to stop creating manga facts to further your own biased views 

 

And I will say it once again, we don't know if Tobirama had spies or not, it's not a confirmed fact and while what Obito said is dubious, what Tobirama said could also be ( for example he could just be trying to save face in front of his brother), we will never know the true truth because Kishi never really clarified this backstory, i's the same thing with the Uchiha involvement in the Kyuubi attack

 

Also, as I said before the motive really doesn't matter, what matters is that Tobirama's decision was what spurned everything to happen, it was a bad decision, he might have had somewhat good intentions or whatever, it was badly executed and ultimately it lead to the Uchiha Madara faction within the clan gaining strength while before they were relatively weaker 

 

 

 

As for your facts, theyre laughable. Tobirama didn’t hate the Uchiha, his best subordinate was an Uchiha himself. He hated Madara. Swelled pride on the part of the Uchiha isn’t his fault, and he did not under any circumstance segregate them. Madara’s supporters strengthened because Tobirama didn’t hand them enough power, that’s not his fault.

 

 

> "Tobirama didn't hate the Uchiha" 

 

A few chapters before the scene where Orochimaru explains what started the revolution talk within the clan we have a flashback of Hashirama where it shows that Tobirama had some kind of prejudice against the Uchiha, so your sentence is objectively false, he might not actively hate them but he ceratinly has a overall dislike for them which is understandable given his past but at the same time a really  bad aspect for the leader of a village

 

One of his best subordinates was an Uchiha...and? 

This doesn't realy matter, and it doesn't change that Tobirama's decision was the one decision that started everything and that he is to blame for it 

 

>"He did not segregrate them"

 

Man, just read the chapter again, smfh

it's on the chapter, why are you acting as if it didn't happen? You're making no sense, you're letting your bias get in the way of your reasoning

 

 

>"Madara's supporters gained strenght because they didn't got enough power"

 

No, they gainded strenght because the Uchiha were not happy with their situation during Tobirama's rule, not only they were relegated to the poilce but they ended up segregrated and disliked by the villagers in general, the situation made them become more conceited which lead to Madara's supporters gaining power

 

Now, if you remember well this didn't happen during Hashirama's rule, in fact the Uchiha outright refused to accompany Madara's on his quest for world rule and power so really power isn't the reason here, the reason is just simple insatisfaction, regret and wounded pride.

If you remember after Orochimaru explained why the Uchiha began rebelling, Hashirama immediately afterwards jumped at Tobirama because he had adivised him against persecuting the Uchiha...it doesn't say too much for your "Tobirama didn't do anything wrong" point of view when even characters in the story interpret what Orochimaru said as Tobirama having the initial blame on the tragedy that was the massacre

 

 

 

 

our evidence is anything but concrete. Tobirama didn’t cause anything, the cause was the Uchiha wanting more power and Obito attacking the leaf. I love that just because I don’t agree with you, I’m biased. Truly lol worthy.

 

 

 

I'm based on the manga, while you're based off on your own bias, granted... the manga is a mess and that is why we're having this discussion in the first place. 

 

You're biased because you continue to deny that Tobirama didn't had any kind of blame while I already proved with manga panels, facts and arguments that he had, his motives for executing his decision notwithstanding because it's a hard thing to pinpoint due to Kishi's incompetency as a writer 

 

Just take a look, you're the only one in this thread still arguing that Tobirama doesn't have any kind of blame, most other members have already reached the conclusion that the massacre was a shared blame between Konoha and the Uchiha, with everything starting due to Tobirama's decisions

 

And once again, "the Uchihas wanting more power" as the motive for the Madara's supporters gaining strenght doesn't make any sense because a few years before the Uchihas were fine and actually refused Madara's plan, however something changed after |Tobirama's rule because of his decisions, he ended up segregrating them, wounding their pride and making a general dislike of them in the village, this was what made the Uchihas side more and more with the few Madara sympathizers

Edited by Nar123, 30 July 2015 - 01:10 AM.

[BlackBird19]

@Nar123: I get that you put a lot of blame on Tobirama because of his decision to make the Uchiha the police force. You feel that is the starting point for all of their problems in Konoha. I know you base it off of Tobirama's known distrust of the Uchihas. However I still see it as the Uchihas were never left high and dry by Tobirama or the village. We're just told by a villain (Orochimaru) that it's Tobirama's fault. That he planted the seed.

 

That's not looking too deep into things, that's fact. I guess it's just our different views of the world. I grew up with the notion that extenuating circumstances have to be to the extreme to allow something like a coup de tat to be reasonably explained. I don't see anything extreme in what Tobirama did. He made a decision he felt was best for the village that didn't work out, but that hardly means he deserves a near lion share of the blame. That's just not reasonable. The blame for what happened to the Uchiha falls mostly into the lap of the Uchiha.

 

Tobirama is just the excuse used by Kishi through the villains (Obito & Orochimaru) to help absolve the Uchiha and most importantly Sasuke of a great deal of blame for their actions, and it seems like it worked in convincing you it was a reasonable explanation. I just don't see it that way.

Edited by BlackBird19, 30 July 2015 - 01:28 AM.

[Nar123]

@Nar123: I get that you put a lot of blame on Tobirama because of his decision to make the Uchiha the police force. You feel that is the starting point for all of their problems in Konoha. I know you base it off of Tobirama's known distrust of the Uchihas. However I still see it as the Uchihas were never left high and dry by Tobirama or the village. We're just told by a villain (Orochimaru) that it's Tobirama's fault. That he planted the seed.
 
That's not looking too deep into things, that's fact. I guess it's just our different views of the world. I grew up with the notion that extenuating circumstances have to be to the extreme to allow something like a coup de tat to be reasonably explained. I don't see anything extreme in what Tobirama did. He made a decision he felt was best for the village that didn't work out, but that hardly means he deserves a near lion share of the blame. That's just not reasonable. The blame for what happened to the Uchiha falls mostly into the lap of the Uchiha.
 
Tobirama is just the excuse used by Kishi through the villains (Obito & Orochimaru) to help absolve the Uchiha and most importantly Sasuke of a great deal of blame for their actions, and it seems like it worked in convincing you it was a reasonable explanation. I just don't see it that way.

I understand if some people think the Uchiha are mostly at fault compared to konoha and if some other people think konoha is the one to receive most of the blame, what I cant agree with is when someone tries to take one of these parties completely out of the equation and blame it completely on the other one or when people continuously try to twist words and statements that are clear in the manga, for example one just cant deny that Tobirama had a involvement in making the madara's supporters stronger, which means essentially that yes he has a degree of fault in what happened at the massacre, however you're free to see if it's a big deal or no based on your own views

The uchiha backstory is a mess and I blame kishi for it, our only source of knowledge from that time was Hashirama's backstory, Orochimaru's statements, Tobi "dubious" comments and Tobirama's "affirmations"...some of these informations conflict with each other especially in regards to Tobirama's true motivation in building the police force...this few information we have is part of the reason why we cant just ignore it just because "oh oro and obito are villains so what they say should be disregarded". No...that's not the case

Futhermore, never in the story itself were these informations confronted or taken for a lie, so we cant just follow a predetermined bias and use the information we chose to follow and ignore the others as lie when the story itself didn't say so

Also, don't try to look deep, Kishi obviously didn't , trying to find reasons within reasons will just leave to headaches and not limiting youtlrself to facts will lead into development of your own personal bias

Just one more thing, eh...I really dont think Orochimaru can be taken as a villain since his ressurection unfortunately, another murdered character I guess

Edited by Nar123, 30 July 2015 - 02:46 AM.

[BlackBird19]

@Nar123: You keep saying don't look too deep into it like I'm seeing things that don't exist. You make it sound like you think I'm not using the facts given to us that are in the manga. Is it solely because when I use the facts it leads me to a different place than you on the level of blame Tobirama deserves? Because you seem to firmly believe that Tobirama deserves quite a bit of blame for the actions of the Uchiha.

 

The reason you seem to believe this, is that apparently Tobirama purposely created the police force to isolate the Uchiha to the outskirts of the village because of his distrust of them. Which in turn wounded their pride and later made them disliked in the village because they became conceited and somewhat abusive of their power. That's the sole evidentiary reason we really have, therefore it's Tobirama's fault. It's Tobirama's fault that the Uchiha are a prideful clan and would later abuse their authority and become disliked by the villagers. He should of known better something like that could happen, therefore he should've given the Uchiha another more prominent role in the village because we can safely assume they wouldn't have abused that power. The manga clearly states the Uchiha are rational, easy going people and wouldn't have done that. To me that kind of reasoning is just ridiculous.

 

You've been arguing under the assumption that all the Uchiha were happy under Hashirama's reign just because they didn't leave with Madara. And there was no dissidence among them until Tobirama took office. Again the assumption being that Madara supporters didn't exist until he became hokage. These are the assumptions you have to be under to be able to levee the amount of blame you are putting on Tobirama. These kind of assumptions are what truly bias an opinion.

 

What appears to not be an assumption is that Madara had supporters. Those supporters consistently grew using Tobirama's decisions as their rallying cry so to speak to foster enough anger, feelings of being slighted and clan pride over two other hokages reigns to think planning a coup was a good idea. Madara, his ideals and the ideals of his supporters are not Tobirama's fault. He had these ideals when Hashirama was still around and these ideals are the true reason and cause of the Uchiha's downfall. That is why I place so much more blame on the Uchiha. Tobirama's actions are an extenuating circumstance, not an actual cause for blame.

 

I came to this opinion from what I read in the manga. These aren't my made up ideas or assumptions. It's an opinion that came solely from reading comprehension and common sense that I used on what Kishi actually put down on paper no matter how bad the writing turned out to be.

 

And one last thing. Just because Orichimaru's practices are now accepted by the good guys doesn't make him any less villainous. 

 

This was just my retort and I hope I didn't come off as being confrontational or disrespectful. This was just my opinion on this topic and as they say, we can just agree to disagree.

[Nar123]

@Nar123: You keep saying don't look too deep into it like I'm seeing things that don't exist. You make it sound like you think I'm not using the facts given to us that are in the manga. Is it solely because when I use the facts it leads me to a different place than you on the level of blame Tobirama deserves? Because you seem to firmly believe that Tobirama deserves quite a bit of blame for the actions of the Uchiha.

 

 

 

Yes , I do 

 

but as you said, people have different views, as long as you acknowledge Tobirama was not a perfect hokage who did "everything right and that he ultimately had a hand in the escalation of the events that turned in the massacre, I don't care if you find the Uchiha to be the ones to receive the lion's share of the blame

 

 

The reason you seem to believe this, is that apparently Tobirama purposely created the police force to isolate the Uchiha to the outskirts of the village because of his distrust of them. Which in turn wounded their pride and later made them disliked in the village because they became conceited and somewhat abusive of their power. That's the sole evidentiary reason we really have, therefore it's Tobirama's fault. It's Tobirama's fault that the Uchiha are a prideful clan and would later abuse their authority and become disliked by the villagers. He should of known better something like that could happen, therefore he should've given the Uchiha another more prominent role in the village because we can safely assume they wouldn't have abused that power. The manga clearly states the Uchiha are rational, easy going people and wouldn't have done that. To me that kind of reasoning is just ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

 

No, we do not know why Tobirama created the police force, I never said he made it purposely  to isolate them, however he could've made them into the police force to have an easier time spying them

 

What Orochimaru says is that Tobirama's actions made the Uchiha becmoe more conceited , hated by part of the villagers and ultimately ended up isolating (segregrating) them. This is what was said in the story, and if Tobirama didn't made this decision, then most likely none of this would've happened or at least if it eventually happened it wouldn't start with a decision the second hokage took.

 

The Uchiha didn't want more power before Tobirama, if they did most of them would've gone with Madara, however they still chose Konoha ( loyalty) instead of betraying the village for power... now if you remember Hashirama didn't had any prejudice against the Uchiha at all, we can presume most of the Uchihas were fine and content in the village and lived a good life, we don't know if any of them had a more important position of power, afaik only Madara had a chair at the council so then why did they suddenly got so different  and began plotting a revolution? Could it be because of the actions the new hokage took?  

 

Answer: Yes 

 

Now, I will repeat it again, I'm not talking about Tobirama's motive in making the Uchiha into the police force, what I'm taking into account is what this decision he made ended up generating...the events that led to the massacre started with him so how come there are still people defending "he did nothing wrong" ?

 

 

You've been arguing under the assumption that all the Uchiha were happy under Hashirama's reign just because they didn't leave with Madara. And there was no dissidence among them until Tobirama took office. Again the assumption being that Madara supporters didn't exist until he became hokage. These are the assumptions you have to be under to be able to levee the amount of blame you are putting on Tobirama. These kind of assumptions are what truly bias an opinion.

 

 

 

 

I'm not under any assumption, they were happy and content in the village as a matter of fact they chose Konoha ( loyalty) over following Madara in his quest (power), the madara supporters within the clan alwass existed, I never said they didn't but were weak and just a few in Hashirama's time...this changed however once Tobirama's took charge because his ill thought politcies sended up alienating hte clan and strenghtening the Madara's supporters

 

So, honestly I don't see how any of what I said was a assumption since it was evidenced in the manga itself

 

 

What appears to not be an assumption is that Madara had supporters. Those supporters consistently grew using Tobirama's decisions as their rallying cry so to speak to foster enough anger, feelings of being slighted and clan pride over two other hokages reigns to think planning a coup was a good idea. Madara, his ideals and the ideals of his supporters are not Tobirama's fault. He had these ideals when Hashirama was still around and these ideals are the true reason and cause of the Uchiha's downfall. That is why I place so much more blame on the Uchiha. Tobirama's actions are an extenuating circumstance, not an actual cause for blame.

 

 

 

 

There is a reason why the clan started to listen to what Madara's supporters and to say and that is because Tobirama's policies ended up relegating the clan, it was a failure of Tobirama since as  the leader, he is responsible for the village and it's clans, by relegating the Uchiha he made way for the Madara's supporters to gain power under his nose

 

Once again most of the Uchiha didn't had any problem in Hashirama's reign, the fact they chose Konoha over Madara is enough of evidence

 

So, excuse me but saying Tobirama didn't have any blame in the matter completely makes no sense due to what was said and presented in the manga, some can agree he is the one that must be blamed the most, some can say that not he just had a little blame due to starting everything because of his decisions, the point of view regarding his degree of fault in the situation can differ... yet saying that he had no blame is completely and uttelry wrong and reeks of bias

 

People who says this are no less biased than the people from the other extreme that demonize Tobirama to the end and just take the Uchiha as poor victims

 

 

 

 

 

I came to this opinion from what I read in the manga. These aren't my made up ideas or assumptions. It's an opinion that came solely from reading comprehension and common sense that I used on what Kishi actually put down on paper no matter how bad the writing turned out to be. 

 

 

It's your opinion, however some aspects of your opinion don't really make sense with what was estabilished in the manga, perharps because you don't like the Uchiha and tehrefore just can't forget this prejudice while judging the situation or maybe you just didn't analysed the situation completely

 

 

 

And one last thing. Just because Orichimaru's practices are now accepted by the good guys doesn't make him any less villainous. 

 

 

I somewhat agree, teh fact that he is begin painted as an okay guy is a testament to how much this story has fallen, what I wanted to point out before though is that someone just can't disregard Orochimaru's words just because he is/was a villain

 

 

This was just my retort and I hope I didn't come off as being confrontational or disrespectful. This was just my opinion on this topic and as they say, we can just agree to disagree.

 

 

 

You didn't. I just want you and AHK to understand the simple fact that Tobirama had a fault in what ultimately happened with the Uchiha, if it was big or small by your point of view, doesn't matter as long as you acknowledge he failed on something 

 

The trend of saying and arguing that  "Tobirama did nothing wrong" is just as extremist and biased as saying " The uchihas are just poor victims of the system...they didn't know any better!" 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Well, to be fair, it doesn't always have to be (just) an outside action(s) that changes the group to listen to the dissenters. Those minority sects within a group slowly corrupting the larger bit by bit (twisting words and events to fit their narrative in order to convince others) can be just as effective, so to say Tobirama and his decisions alone drove the majority of the Uchiha Clan to suddenly listen to the few Madara sympathizers is a bit unfair. (It also sounds like people say Tobirama "should have known" the Uchiha would become drunk off their new police power and demand more...)

After all, the "Tea Party" in the US was a very small minority group when it was first formed, but after just a couple years, it became, and still is, virtually the dominating force within much of the Republican Party, probably second only to big corporations.

Or just look at how HYDRA spread its influence throughout most of SHIELD by Captain America: Winter Soldier, and most of it having started with Professor Zola alone after he was made to work for the Allies after WWII.

[BlackBird19]

@nar123: I guess what the biggest difference between me you is that I can't blame Tobirama for a decision he made that you yourself stated, you don't know the motivation for. You can disagree with the decision and say it had a bad turn out, but unless you can prove there was ill intent behind the decision then how can you actually lay a great deal of blame on him?

 

Remember he said he gave them a duty he felt they would excel at. That's it. He also said that you couldn't blame him for skewing things after what Madara pulled. It was Orochimaru that said he knowingly drove them to the outskirts of the village. Who are we supposed to believe? The 2nd hokage who was portrayed as being both rational and honest. A pragmatic individual who once had to talk Hashirama out of seeking revenge on the Uchiha for the death of their brothers. Or do we believe the supposed former villain who was portrayed as evil, antagonistic and manipulative.

 

It was Madara that planted a seed of dissidence when he left by saying that when Tobirama became hokage the clan's days were numbered. There was no generational gap between Hashirama's reign and Tobirama's reign. They ruled over the same generation of people, therefore saying the Uchiha were all happy and content under Hashirama's rule is an assumption you're making for the sole reason that the clan stayed. Nowhere in the manga was it stated they were happy, it was just said they were in agreement with the Senju and other clans and living in peace. What was stated was that Hashirama thought the clans would desegregate and live happily ever after in the village, however that did not happen. It was left to Tobirama to find a middle ground to be appease the clans while still securing the stabilization of the village.

 

He would also explain to Sasuke that he did not despise the Uchiha clan. He merely kept an eye on any clan that could cause a problem for the village. The Uchiha just so happened to always draw his attention. He also stated there were only a few who truly had loyalty to the village above their clan, such as Kagami Uchiha (Shisui's father), who was in his squadron. That is what's written in the manga and that is what shaped my opinion. Not prejudice or bias. The fact that the Uchiha felt marginalized by his decision to make their clan the military police force is on the Uchiha. Not on Tobirama. He had no control over their way of thinking. And the fact that Uchiha clan members who sympathized with Madara gained enough favor within the clan to plan a coup almost two generations after Tobirama's reign is on the Uchiha, not Tobirama.

 

Tobirama's decision is an extenuating circumstance. A single reason, one of many. Not THE reason that lead to the Uchiha's annihilation.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And it's not like Tobirama just made the Uchiha Clan the police force out of nowhere. From what it looked like, the Uchiha Clan were already demanding more power within the village beforehand (which probably lead to them doing things that caught Tobirama's attention), and so Tobirama decided to kill two birds with one stone - he could appease the Uchiha Clan by making them Police Force, which would be a lot of power, and by doing so, he would also be further stabilizing and protecting the village.

[Nar123]

Well, to be fair, it doesn't always have to be (just) an outside action(s) that changes the group to listen to the dissenters. Those minority sects within a group slowly corrupting the larger bit by bit (twisting words and events to fit their narrative in order to convince others) can be just as effective, so to say Tobirama and his decisions alone drove the majority of the Uchiha Clan to suddenly listen to the few Madara sympathizers is a bit unfair. (It also sounds like people say Tobirama "should have known" the Uchiha would become drunk off their new police power and demand more...)

After all, the "Tea Party" in the US was a very small minority group when it was first formed, but after just a couple years, it became, and still is, virtually the dominating force within much of the Republican Party, probably second only to big corporations.

Or just look at how HYDRA spread its influence throughout most of SHIELD by Captain America: Winter Soldier, and most of it having started with Professor Zola alone after he was made to work for the Allies after WWII.

 

Why then, the Uchiha chose Konoha instead of Madara himself when the clan leader chose to depart the village ?...and then why their loyalty towards Konoha suddenly changed after Tobirama's actions? 

 

Sorry man, there is just no way to deny that Tobirama's actions indeed played a big part in strenghtening the Madara's supporters power within the clan...and this is also exactly what the manga says

 

 

@nar123: I guess what the biggest difference between me you is that I can't blame Tobirama for a decision he made that you yourself stated, you don't know the motivation for. You can disagree with the decision and say it had a bad turn out, but unless you can prove there was ill intent behind the decision then how can you actually lay a great deal of blame on him?

 

Remember he said he gave them a duty he felt they would excel at. That's it. He also said that you couldn't blame him for skewing things after what Madara pulled. It was Orochimaru that said he knowingly drove them to the outskirts of the village. Who are we supposed to believe? The 2nd hokage who was portrayed as being both rational and honest. A pragmatic individual who once had to talk Hashirama out of seeking revenge on the Uchiha for the death of their brothers. Or do we believe the supposed former villain who was portrayed as evil, antagonistic and manipulative.

 

It was Madara that planted a seed of dissidence when he left by saying that when Tobirama became hokage the clan's days were numbered. There was no generational gap between Hashirama's reign and Tobirama's reign. They ruled over the same generation of people, therefore saying the Uchiha were all happy and content under Hashirama's rule is an assumption you're making for the sole reason that the clan stayed. Nowhere in the manga was it stated they were happy, it was just said they were in agreement with the Senju and other clans and living in peace. What was stated was that Hashirama thought the clans would desegregate and live happily ever after in the village, however that did not happen. It was left to Tobirama to find a middle ground to be appease the clans while still securing the stabilization of the village.

 

He would also explain to Sasuke that he did not despise the Uchiha clan. He merely kept an eye on any clan that could cause a problem for the village. The Uchiha just so happened to always draw his attention. He also stated there were only a few who truly had loyalty to the village above their clan, such as Kagami Uchiha (Shisui's father), who was in his squadron. That is what's written in the manga and that is what shaped my opinion. Not prejudice or bias. The fact that the Uchiha felt marginalized by his decision to make their clan the military police force is on the Uchiha. Not on Tobirama. He had no control over their way of thinking. And the fact that Uchiha clan members who sympathized with Madara gained enough favor within the clan to plan a coup almost two generations after Tobirama's reign is on the Uchiha, not Tobirama.

 

Tobirama's decision is an extenuating circumstance. A single reason, one of many. Not THE reason that lead to the Uchiha's annihilation.

 

--A person was handling a gun, the person fires it by accident, the shot coming from the gun reaches another person and wounds this them. The person handling the gun had no intention of hurting the other person whatsoever, however they still should receive blame for their actions

So for me, it doesn't matter what Tobirama's intention was, if he had indeed a good intention or if he just wanted to spy them. What matters was that his decision screwed up everything and gave rise to the events that would lead to the Uchiha Massacre, and he should receive the blame for that

 

--Also by saying  that Tobirama gave that position to the Uchiha because he thought he would excel at them, you're ignoring Obito's side of the story, in which Tobirama put the Uchiha in the police to facilitate spying. we don't know which one is right because of Kishi, so it's ambiguous...either one could be lying in one way or another, by choosing to believe Tobirama's words blindly without raising any doubts about it you're unfortunately showing an example of bias

In your analyse of Tobirama you also only list his "good" points, you also forgot to list that he had a very clear prejudice and distrust against the Uchiha, so him putting spies to watch the clan wouldn't be very difficult thing to believe and while you raised good points about Obito, he might've indeed trying to manipulate Sausuke in one way or another, his information was never really disproved nor showed as a lie, Kishi simply relegated and forgot about Obito's comment, causing then, Tobirama's and Obito's statements to have clear historical differences, differences that will never be settled probably

 

Tl;dr: My point is that we don't know which comment was the true one because there is no manga fact to confirm which one shows the truth. you're just chosing to believe Tobirama's comment over Obito because of your own personal bias and feelings...no problem in doing that, but when discussing about something, this situation should be aborded on a logical manner

 

 

--About Madara: well, not really...I mean he tried to plant the seeds of doubt within the clan but he failed because the clan ultimately chose Konoha over him, he was the only Uchiha with access to the council and he saw how Tobirama acted and  also knew Tobirama would eventually be the second hokage with would eventually lkead to problems with his clan, however I'm not defending Madara here, I'm just saying that he failed in planting the seed of doubt within the clan because they chose Konoha over him and at the time his supporters were still a few

Also, about the Uchiha being content during Hashirama's reign...well man this a given considering they chose to stay in konoha instead of following their leader ... I really don't understand why you said it was an assumption when it's a logical conclusion based on manga facts

The situation ended up changing in Tobirama's rule due to his actions, it is even more evidenced by theh fact that they were the same generation...such a drastic change in thought method is bound to have a reason right? And you and everyone else know what this reason is

 

Tl;dr: The situation with the Uchiha was fine with Hashirama, Tobirama kittened it up

 

 

 

--About Tobirama... you seem to forget what he thought about the Uchiha back then, just read through Hashirama's flashbacks again and it should be plenty of evidence. Also if I read right then it's also confirmed that Tobirama actually was spying the Uchiha...I guess I lost this fact when I was reading the manga so lol, this basically proves Obito's words somewhat right in the end even if there is still a issue regarding his motivation in creating a police force.

Bringing Kagami's example also is useless, he was just one single individual that happened to fit into Tobirama's mind model for the perfect shinobi, it isn't the same relationship Tobirama had with the entire clan.

Also, what made the Uchiha lose their loyalty over Konoha was mainly the fact that they were segregrated due to Tobirama's decision, they didn't felt segregrated, they were...these are two different things and you are having problem with them most likely...because it was stated in the manga theat they were segregrated not that they felt segregrated. The other reasons as I said before were the Uchiha's own hubris ( the clan's fault)  taken to the eleven due to Tobirama's decision and the villagers subsequent distrust on the clan

Besides the fact that the coup happend only two generations after Tobirama doesn't matter, it is said in the manga that the strenghtening of Madara's supporters began with Tobirama's actions, so in a way his action shaped everything that would happen in regards to the massacre

 

Tl;dr : Tobirama's ill thought decision was fundamental into the way the events were shaped, everything began there, so saying it's something incosenquential is wrong, I also never said Tobirama's the only one who should take the blame, in fact I think that from the Konoha side Danzo and Sarutobi have more blame than Tobirama's...however Tobirama's decision was what originated everything.

 

 

 

 

And it's not like Tobirama just made the Uchiha Clan the police force out of nowhere. From what it looked like, the Uchiha Clan were already demanding more power within the village beforehand (which probably lead to them doing things that caught Tobirama's attention), and so Tobirama decided to kill two birds with one stone - he could appease the Uchiha Clan by making them Police Force, which would be a lot of power, and by doing so, he would also be further stabilizing and protecting the village.

 

This is an assumption, not a fact. 

 

We don't know why Tobirama made them into the police force, we just know that it was a bad decision given the results

Edited by Nar123, 01 August 2015 - 01:02 AM.

[BlackBird19]

@ nar123: I've been trying to be understanding of you, but you constantly telling me I'm being biased is getting on my nerves. I'm giving logical and factual arguments to you and you disregard them as being biased or prejudiced because I'm not agreeing with you. I've not once said you were being biased or your personal feelings are clouding your judgment, merely stating we have different viewpoints. But you seem to feel free to tell me that I am. Not extending me the same courtesy I've given you.

 

So I'll just leave it at this. Using your logic, if Hashirama hadn't saved Madara all those years ago then none of this would've happened. His act of human kindness led to so many more deaths. Thus that decision did not work out and is to blame for everything that happened later. Not just Madara and his ideals and his desire for power, but Hashirama and his decision to allow him to live should have been given it's fair share of blame. But we can't do that because no one accused him of blame in the manga.

Edited by BlackBird19, 01 August 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[Nar123]

@ nar123: I've been trying to be understanding of you, but you constantly telling me I'm being biased is getting on my nerves. I'm giving logical and factual arguments to you and you disregard them as being biased or prejudiced because I'm not agreeing with you. I've not once said you were being biased or your personal feelings are clouding your judgment, merely stating we have different viewpoints. But you seem to feel free to tell me that I am. Not extending me the same courtesy I've given you.

 

So I'll just leave it at this. Using your logic, if Hashirama hadn't saved Madara all those years ago then none of this would've happened. His act of human kindness led to so many more deaths. Thus that decision did not work out and is to blame for everything that happened later. Not just Madara and his ideals and his desire for power, but Hashirama and his decision to allow him to live should have been given it's fair share of blame. But we can't do that because no one accused him of blame in the manga.

 

 

I'm sorry but that's kinda the impression you've been giving me when you chose to ignore Obito's words in favour of Tobirama's

 

I mean, we don't know which one is talking the truth, the story never explored this matter, so staying on Tobirama's side because of a subjective opinion and trying to pass it off as something objectivestrikes me as  biased you know...though I'm sorry if I sounded rude or anything else like that, it wasn't my intention really

 

What I've been trying to point it out is that Tobirama has some kind of blame in what happened, this much is evident and trying to deny it with "Tobirama did nothing wrong" is useless and as bad as those who defend the Uchiha blindly, if you agree that Tobirama has indeed some kind of blame in the situation, no matter if it's big or small in your opinion, then there's nothing more to discuss

,

Well, yeah Hashirama's to blame for the situation with the corrupt ninja system ( that was never fixed)  and for being to lenient on Madara, however we were talking about teh Uchiha clan and the massacre...I don't think Hashirama had much involvement with that since it all sparked up during Tobirama's rule

 

 

Once again,I'm sorry if I sounded rude sometime ago, it wasn't my intention

Edited by Nar123, 01 August 2015 - 02:36 PM.