169 replies to this topic

[Nate River]

That was not a retcon. Show me which chapter and page had Kakashi saying: "oh this, I awakened it while you were away training." No, what Kakashi said was "recently.... I developed a new jutsu." Now, see how different it is?? Kakashi said he developed it, not awakened it. It was a subtle hint from Kishi that Kakashi had it since a long time ago. Kakashi likely realized he awakened it and had it since a long time ago during the timeskip. He just didn't know when , since it's obvious he forgot that he killed Rin. That's why Kakashi said he developed it, not awakened it.

Call it what you want. It was plugging a plot hole. Two of them, in fact. His eye cannot be shut off, but it can evolve. Whatever. Whether it evolved because of Obito or because of his own tragedy (that it did it some else's head was an-ass-pull too), it's an ass-pull either way. So, he didn't know he had thing for over a decade or maybe he simply chose not to "develop" it for such a long period because he forgot he killed his teammate until the time skip? Was he so traumatized he simply didn't remember he killed Rin? If he forgot when did remember again? During the time-skip? What suddenly jogged his memory that he remember he had this technique so many years later? Can you tell me? It's obvious it wasn't during this fight.

Fill in the blanks for me and I might not call it a ret-con anymore.

On the second point, I think you sort of miss her point. She was saying that in a genjutsu world, no one will die, and be alive. That's precisely what the Moon's eye plan is. That what the "good" part is. What I'm trying to say is, that (I think) she essentially agrees with you, just that she's explaining Obito's reasoning and why he thinks he's right.

Also, I think what he's saying about how he wants to create a world where "heroes don't make excuses over graves" may very well be true. So he's not doing this just for himself but also for Kakashi. I believe we'll be seeing Obito spying on Kakashi when he makes his daily visits to the memorial next chapter, to show that Kakashi is another part of his motivation.

I don't think he gives a crap about Kakashi and even if it's for him, so what?

I agree. While it's true that he certainly believes he has the best intentions at heart, like Nagato, he's just simply running away from reality. I sympathize with him because he has all these noble causes for a lot of people, yet he's simply misguided in his methods. That's what makes him a very sympathetic villain.

Noble causes don't absolve immoral deeds nor, in my mind, make the offender anymore more sympathetic. I cannot feel sorry for him.

Besides, his goals aren't noble.

Obito didn't push Sasuke into making the choices he did regarding Konoha - Obito picked him up, and told him the truth. Then Sasuke decided that he wanted to go after Konoha on his own. The only thing Obito had Sasuke do was hunt the hachibi, and that didn't result in any deaths at all (though certainly the intent was there).

Obito did not feed him the information just because or because he thought it important that Sasuke know. Obito didn't issue commands, but I think his intent was to stear Sasuke the way he went. It doesn't free Sasuke from responsibility for choosing to do that, but Obito is not an innocent bystander. And Obito did not tell him the "truth." He fead Sasuke half-true information (he lied outright about Kyuubi) with a specific intent in mind.

[Codus N]

Call it what you want. It was plugging a plot hole. Two of them, in fact. His eye cannot be shut off, but it can evolve. Whatever. Whether it evolved because of Obito or because of his own tragedy (that it did it some else's head was an-ass-pull too), it's an ass-pull either way. So, he didn't know he had thing for over a decade or maybe he simply chose not to "develop" it for such a long period because he forgot he killed his teammate until the time skip? Was he so traumatized he simply didn't remember he killed Rin? If he forgot when did remember again? During the time-skip? What suddenly jogged his memory that he remember he had this technique so many years later? Can you tell me? It's obvious it wasn't during this fight.

Fill in the blanks for me and I might not call it a ret-con anymore.

Noble causes don't absolve immoral deeds nor, in my mind, make the offender anymore more sympathetic. I cannot feel sorry for him.

Besides, his goals aren't noble.

Remember Sasuke? we thought and I believe it was even said (in the manga) that Sasuke had awakened his Sharingan during the Land of Waves arc. Turns out he already awakened it a long time ago, during the massacre. And not only that, Sasuke actually forgot about it too due to the trauma. So why can't this apply to Kakashi?? so, before you call it an ass pull, you might wanna reread the manga first to see a precedent for Kakashi's situation. In fact, that flashback of Sasuke may have even been meant to set up Kakashi's situation.

That's what I felt about Nagato too, but the reason why I see Obito is sympathetic in my eyes is how easily he was manipulated by Madara. Hell, even the old fart's smirks says it all that he somehow manipulated these events.

[Don-kun]

Remember Sasuke? we thought and I believe it was even said (in the manga) that Sasuke had awakened his Sharingan during the Land of Waves arc. Turns out he already awakened it a long time ago, during the massacre. And not only that, Sasuke actually forgot about it too due to the trauma. So why can't this apply to Kakashi?? so, before you call it an ass pull, you might wanna reread the manga first to see a precedent for Kakashi's situation. In fact, that flashback of Sasuke may have even been meant to set up Kakashi's situation.

That's what I felt about Nagato too, but the reason why I see Obito is sympathetic in my eyes is how easily he was manipulated by Madara. Hell, even the old fart's smirks says it all that he somehow manipulated these events.

Show me a panel.

[Codus N]

[Nate River]

Remember Sasuke? we thought and I believe it was even said (in the manga) that Sasuke had awakened his Sharingan during the Land of Waves arc. Turns out he already awakened it a long time ago, during the massacre. And not only that, Sasuke actually forgot about it too due to the trauma. So why can't this apply to Kakashi?? so, before you call it an ass pull, you might wanna reread the manga first to see a precedent for Kakashi's situation. In fact, that flashback of Sasuke may have even been meant to set up Kakashi's situation.

That's what I felt about Nagato too, but the reason why I see Obito is sympathetic in my eyes is how easily he was manipulated by Madara. Hell, even the old fart's smirks says it all that he somehow manipulated these events.

You're argument assumes I'm on board with what you say about Sasuke. You shouldn't assume that.

Besides, if you want to go there then you should say he forgot/didn't know he awakened it, not that he forgot he killed Rin. There is zippo evidence to support that notion. Moreover, both beg the question of what reminded him or reawakened the technique;. If the event that cause it was traumatizing or life-threatening, it's a bit irritating that such an important event happens off-screen and is revealed years later with no one in the manga asking anything about it.

I said this once before: this group of ninjas is an awfully incurious bunch when it comes to the sharingan. Does no one even attempt to seek out more info about an eye that is at the center of this whole conflict?

[James S Cassidy]

That means that we need to feel the same way, for Kabuto, Orochimaru, Sasuke, Nagato, Sasori, because all of them lost someone dear to them and become psychopaths, or this is only because Obito parallel Naruto? So what about all the one who lost someone close to them and it make them stronger and give them more desire to do great things and protect the other loves ones they have.

Oh can we still feel sorry for Obito with all the crap he has done so far.

Sasuke was pity-ed up to a point in my opinion. When he finally got his revenge against the real people who id all that stuff like Itachi and Danzou, that's when he could have walked away forever and we would have been satisfied. Now that he wants to continue this "evil" streak, he lost sympathy. It's all because he was justifiable up to a point.

As for why people still sympathize with Obito? Well I have my reasons, but one difference I find is that unlike Sasuke and Orochimaru, Obito didn't have a chance to see it from another point of view. There was no one there to show him a better path. Kakashi would have done it if he knew Obito was still alive.

But look at what Obito had left. Seeing his best friend kill his true love is very harsh on the mind. Honestly, can you survive seeing that happen? We then got the fact that Madara was with Obito every step of the way and right when Obito cracked. Right when he had given up hope says to him "Hey, I have something to take away your pain. I have the means to bring back everything you love and want and all you have to do is exactly what I tell you."

Could you say no to that? I doubt anyone could. When you are at the end of your rope at this breaking point and someone offers you a way out, you'd take it no matter if it was right or wrong. This is why I am curious is if Kakashi tries to talk to Obito now and explains why he had to kill Rin, how much would this change? Would Obito waver?

I want to see if given the chance and told the truth, how would Obito react? If he denies it, then I will stop being sympathetic. If he at least acknowledges or wavers in his idea, then I will continue to be sympathetic because it shows that all Obito wants is to be happy.

No one will die? Rin's already dead. Any "Rin" in his world will be an illusion. She still lost her life and mortality as a concept will not cease to exist because people are living in a dream. They themselves will eventually die even if they never percive those around them dying. At that's simply assuming what Obito says actually pans out they way he thinks. Communism's history is one of big promises of how equal we will all be only for reality to consistently inflict ungodly body counts on nations that employ it and all for a promise that never pans out.

I think I can understand this point quite well. Sometimes living a lie is better than living a truth. People tell me that living a truth is the much better outcome, but I always asked them what if it made you miserable for the rest of your life? Yes, you know the truth. Yes, you live in reality, but is it worth living through most of life being miserable? I guess this is really subjective because people can be miserable for many reasons.

It's so easy to say you rather live the truth, but I don't think anyone can really understand until you know what it feels like to suffer and to understand why some would rather live in a lie

At least with Sasuke, he did not go after anyone who spoke his name wrong. He targeted only the person who he, justifiably, believed had wronged him. Sasuke's own goals only expanded after Obito got a hold of him and pushed him in that direction. This does not absolve Sasuke of his own choices, but if we are going to sit here and compare to the two, Obito's hands are all over that too. The caveat at this point, is I do not know exactly what Sasuke will do now and he could end up in the same boat as Obito, but until he does, I think Obito is a far worse human being than Sasuke. It's not even close for me.

At this point, Obito is a pathetic soul who seeks to inflict his own version of reality on everyone else because he cannot accept the results of his own. Sasuke and Gaara were actively wronged by the people around them, Obito doesn't appear to have been wronged in the same way, he simply cannot accept that someone he cared about, died.

I have to agree. The logic is very sound, but it does make me wonder which villains have good enough reasons to be villains and what is a good reason at all. I know "There is no reason why someone should be the villains and hurt and kill others." What I mean is, what is a good acceptable understanding on why someone would become a villain?

Obito became a villain because he lost the love of his life and was brainwashed by Madara.
Kabuto became a villain too because he lost the one person who cared about him and Orochimaru gave him an option.
Orochimaru became a villain because he wanted power and immortality.
Unknown why Madara became a villain, but so far it seems to be similar to Orochimaru: power and immortality.
Gaara became a villain because the clan treated him like a weapon and his own family tried to kill him. His father even abandoned him.
Sasuke became a villain because...well he lost his clan to his brother, was told to go for power, and now wants to kill others to satisfy his own to redeem his own name.

So which one of these is a good enough reason?

If we look at Body counts, Orochimaru seems to be the worst of them all. He did horrible experiments on people, put entire groups of ninja to fight against each other only to give the victor the chance to be his vessel. We also have him killing 200 people just to combine people with Harashima's DNA and put two people in extreme experiments and years of being trapped in a prison just so he can mess with their Jutsu.

Compared to that, Obito is not so bad. I also think it is kind of unfair to compare Sasuke with any villain in this series since well....he really hasn't done anything. He has "attempted" some things, but he is always stopped either by Itachi's reasoning or Naruto and Sakura's meddling or he fails entirely.

In that retrospect, Sasuke isn't a villain. You have to do bad things before you can be a bad guy and Sasuke just...doesn't have the cojones to even attempt anything. The really sad part is, Sasuke just isn't even a threat. Naruto has been going up against Obito and soon Madara and going toe to toe with them. How can Sasuke compete with the two greatest Uchiha in existence? I am not sure what kind of power boost Sasuke is going to get to math wits with Naruto, but it better be a good boost cause right now Naruto would wipe the floor with him.

Call it what you want. It was plugging a plot hole. Two of them, in fact. His eye cannot be shut off, but it can evolve. Whatever. Whether it evolved because of Obito or because of his own tragedy (that it did it some else's head was an-ass-pull too), it's an ass-pull either way. So, he didn't know he had thing for over a decade or maybe he simply chose not to "develop" it for such a long period because he forgot he killed his teammate until the time skip? Was he so traumatized he simply didn't remember he killed Rin? If he forgot when did remember again? During the time-skip? What suddenly jogged his memory that he remember he had this technique so many years later? Can you tell me? It's obvious it wasn't during this fight.

Fill in the blanks for me and I might not call it a ret-con anymore.

I want to take a crack at this and go with a much more simple option. He didn't have the chakra to do it. Even to an Uchiha the MS is taxing on the chakra reserves. So he probably didn't have enough chakra. He also did some hard training during the 2 year time skip to learn to use it.

We could even say that he didn't forget so much that he didn't think it was important. Kakashi didn't really train that hard because almost every opponent he faced was much weaker than him. Probably figured he didn't need to gain it again seeing how lazy Kakashi can be sometimes. It wasn't until he met Itachi that he did some crunching down on training. I figure after meeting the Akatsuki and how powerful they are, I guess he figures it would have been a good idea to unlock it.

No where did Kakashi say he "forgot" how things went. This is something I think the fanbase kind of made up cause I can't remember one scene where Kakashi says "I don't remember how my friend's died" nor said "I forgot I unlocked it."

I just always figured he got lazy and just didn't train himself to use it. Imagine if he did all those years? He probably would be more powerful than he is now and many opponents would just be killed instantly.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 17 October 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Don-kun]

Hey but this is different I went over the chapter and this was forced by Itashi using MS on Sasuke, anyway I still give you that one but your theory about Kakashi awakening the MS is not correct, Kishimoto could not be more clear, it's stated that Obito eyes are linked with Kakashi's eyes and the only reason why Kakashi got his was because Obito awaken his MS with Rin's death not Kakashi.
That person need to be really close to you in order for your MS to be awaken and Kakashi in no moment was shown to be that close to Rin it's all speculation, after all he did plan to let her die to order to complete the mission, Obito on the other hand seems like someone who Rin's life mean the worl to him.

Edited by NS means logic, 17 October 2012 - 05:05 PM.

[Codus N]

You're argument assumes I'm on board with what you say about Sasuke. You shouldn't assume that.

Besides, if you want to go there then you should say he forgot/didn't know he awakened it, not that he forgot he killed Rin. There is zippo evidence to support that notion. Moreover, both beg the question of what reminded him or reawakened the technique;. If the event that cause it was traumatizing or life-threatening, it's a bit irritating that such an important event happens off-screen and is revealed years later with no one in the manga asking anything about it.

I said this once before: this group of ninjas is an awfully incurious bunch when it comes to the sharingan. Does no one even attempt to seek out more info about an eye that is at the center of this whole conflict?

You're not even getting my point. How can you "assume" what I'm trying to say?? are you a mind reader or what?? that was not what my intention at all. Seriously, I think you're just trying to twist my words here. Anyone with half a brain would know what I'm talking about here. Look, in case you don't even know basic psychology, which you should, since you're a lawyer. And any lawyer, as far as I know, has to at least know what the hell PTSD IS!!!

PTSD can have many effects, complete amnesia or partial is one of them. And you want evidence?? what about the fact Kakashi fainted soon after?? is that not a PTSD symptom?? please enlighten me if I'm wrong . Kakashi's PTSD was likely Rin's death. The PTSD's effects is none other than the complete amnesia of Rin's death. And I wouldn't put it past Minato not telling him what happened to Rin.

My guess is, either of these two options regarding Kakashi's reawakening of MS.

1. Kakashi trained his Sharingan during the timeskip and awakened it by coincidence, thus he assumes MS can be awakened with enough training. This is the weakest reason, as it completely contradicts Itachi's states he needs to kill a friend for it.
2. Kakashi remembered Obito's "death" to reawaken it.

As for why people still sympathize with Obito? Well I have my reasons, but one difference I find is that unlike Sasuke and Orochimaru, Obito didn't have a chance to see it from another point of view. There was no one there to show him a better path. Kakashi would have done it if he knew Obito was still alive.

Exactly what I've been saying. And yes, if Obito shows that he would at least be willing to reconsider his actions once he is told the truth, I will continue on to be sympathetic towards Obito. I could imagine him doing this, but then he says it's too late for him to go back and still continues with the plan.

[Codus N]

Hey but this is different I went over the chapter and this was forced by Itashi using MS on Sasuke, anyway I still give you that one but your theory about Kakashi awakening the MS is not correct, Kishimoto could not be more clear, it's stated that Obito eyes are linked with Kakashi's eyes and the only reason why Kakashi got his was because Obito awaken his MS with Rin's death not Kakashi.
That person need to be really close to you in order for your MS to be awaken and Kakashi in no moment was shown to be that close to Rin it's all speculation, after all he did plan to let her die to order to complete the mission, Obito on the other hand seems like someone who Rin's life mean the worl to him.

Double post:

No, his awakening wasn't forced by Itachi. There's nothing that says Sharingan can be awakened if faced with an MS.... as for your other statement, I'll agree on that as it's only speculations at this point regarding Kakashi's feelings towards Rin, but it is possible, nonetheless. Both reasons are plausible either way.

[Lid]

Noble causes don't absolve immoral deeds nor, in my mind, make the offender anymore more sympathetic. I cannot feel sorry for him.

This summarizes my thoughts on Obito as a villain, as well as a majority of other villains in Naruto. It seems to me that Kishi always shows villains to be evil, murderers even. And then all of a sudden we are given these tragic back stories and are suppose to be suddenly sympathetic to them.

[Don-kun]

Double post:

No, his awakening wasn't forced by Itachi. There's nothing that says Sharingan can be awakened if faced with an MS.... as for your other statement, I'll agree on that as it's only speculations at this point regarding Kakashi's feelings towards Rin, but it is possible, nonetheless. Both reasons are plausible either way.

Sorry but Itachi did you his MS (I meant the illusion stuff but I don't know how to pronounce it the right way) on Sasuke to show him what he did forcing the anger on Sasuke and because of that he show Itashi his Sharingan something that caught Itachi by surprise.
That is way I say that he forced out Sasuke.

The other part, we need to get more information to know if Kakashi really awaken his MS the same day Obito did because that was the only time we saw little Kakashi with the MS, so far everything is leading to Obito been the main reason.

[tricksie]

One thing that is a serious oversight is why Obito doesn't just kill Kakashi outright. There is no reason to let Kakashi live. It's not like Sasuke as a child vs. Itachi who had just slaughtered his family. Obito is clearly more powerful than a whole team of ninjas.

Madara/Zetsu clearly have a reason for keeping him hidden, but that doesn't excuse Obito's very apparent skip over revenge aimed at Kakashi. It doesn't make any sense at all. (Except that it's necessary for the plot, of course.)

I really hope that Rin doesn't turn out to be a martyr for Obito's anger, and the final gift he gets when he turns good in the bitter end. That he finally gets to die and go be with her. Because that makes Rin out to be this saint-like robot who just accepts him with all his psychopathic, murderous flaws. She is robbed of all opinion, and is just there as a device for the villain, to push him over the edge and be part of the redemption. I have a feeling if Rin were alive and witnessing Obito's transformation into Madara she would shun him. Perhaps she would have without all this mess.

I just hope that Kishimoto doesn't end up glorifying these psychopathic tendencies. There are plenty of people in RL who feel they've been wronged and use that as the justification for their crimes. We call them murderers. Obito is no different. And the only way to make Obito's crimes acceptable is to steal away the voice of the object of his affection and fuel for his revenge. Because the Rin he loved would never have wanted any of this. But I have a feeling we're headed in that direction. Objectifying her to make his story more palatable.

[Codus N]

Sorry but Itachi did you his MS (I meant the illusion stuff but I don't know how to pronounce it the right way) on Sasuke to show him what he did forcing the anger on Sasuke and because of that he show Itashi his Sharingan something that caught Itachi by surprise.
That is way I say that he forced out Sasuke.

The other part, we need to get more information to know if Kakashi really awaken his MS the same day Obito did because that was the only time we saw little Kakashi with the MS, so far everything is leading to Obito been the main reason.

Oh, I see. So that's what you meant. I was confused at first, why you said Itachi awakened his Sharingan. But now I understand. But either way you slice it, it was still all Sasuke in awakening it. My guess is, basic Sharingans can be awakened if you're under enough duress and willpower to handle something stressful.

[James S Cassidy]

One thing that is a serious oversight is why Obito doesn't just kill Kakashi outright. There is no reason to let Kakashi live. It's not like Sasuke as a child vs. Itachi who had just slaughtered his family. Obito is clearly more powerful than a whole team of ninjas.

He kind of answered that. He became indifferent about Kakashi.

Panel --Click here to view--

Like I said, he gave Kakashi the ultimate insult by being indifferent about him. "I neither hate nor love you. I just don't care about you anymore."

I really hope that Rin doesn't turn out to be a martyr for Obito's anger, and the final gift he gets when he turns good in the bitter end. That he finally gets to die and go be with her. Because that makes Rin out to be this saint-like robot who just accepts him with all his psychopathic, murderous flaws. She is robbed of all opinion, and is just there as a device for the villain, to push him over the edge and be part of the redemption. I have a feeling if Rin were alive and witnessing Obito's transformation into Madara she would shun him. Perhaps she would have without all this mess.

If Rin were alive, he wouldn't be a villain in the first place thus he wouldn't have a need to do the things that he has done.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 17 October 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Nate River]

You're not even getting my point. How can you "assume" what I'm trying to say?? are you a mind reader or what?? that was not what my intention at all. Seriously, I think you're just trying to twist my words here. Anyone with half a brain would know what I'm talking about here. Look, in case you don't even know basic psychology, which you should, since you're a lawyer. And any lawyer, as far as I know, has to at least know what the hell PTSD IS!!!

PTSD can have many effects, complete amnesia or partial is one of them. And you want evidence?? what about the fact Kakashi fainted soon after?? is that not a PTSD symptom?? please enlighten me if I'm wrong . Kakashi's PTSD was likely Rin's death. The PTSD's effects is none other than the complete amnesia of Rin's death. And I wouldn't put it past Minato not telling him what happened to Rin.

You're proffering the theory, I'm not hear to justify it for you. Again, you're assuming THAT's why he fainted. Kakashi has said that as of right now. It's possible that is why. It's possible from it's pure exhaustion or whatever injuries he suffered during the fight, or a combination of all three. We don't have an answer for that yet.

What other purpose is their for bring in Sasuke? If I don't find that explanation any more probable that your current one, it means nothing to me as an argument. You say this happened to Sasuke, so it could happen to Kakashi. But if I find the former half-assed, then, so what if it happend to Sasuke? In fact, to address, I kind of miss the point of even doing what he did there. Why go back an alter the original awakening anyway?

Nope, no clue what PTSD is. Never heard of it before.

You got upset at me calling it a ret-con, but all you offer is "probably." Maybe Kakashi will fill in those particular holes, but it doesn't fill me with delight to think he suddenly remembers it during a 3 year time-skip (i.e. off screen) and that he has PTSD when no bothers to mention it...well, ever. It would be an awfully convienient explanation to NOW learn he has such a mental illness at the same time Kishimoto offers an explanation of how he got hold of a jutsu that was absent for the entirety of Part 1.

In fact, given the problems people with PTSD experience it would be lovely to learn that he has it at the exact moment it serves as a bail-out for an author who has been really....vague...about how this whole thing works for a long time. Maybe he recieved long-term counseling right away and it ceased to be a problem right after it quits serving as useful explanation for a plot hole or maybe the ONLY negative effect of it was forgetting about how his teammates died even as honors their death on an almost daily basis (while not knowing precisely what happened to them).

It's a half-baken explanation no matter which way you slice it.

Even if I agreed with your theory and Kishimoto used it. I'd still says it sucks.

My guess is, either of these two options regarding Kakashi's reawakening of MS.

1. Kakashi trained his Sharingan during the timeskip and awakened it by coincidence, thus he assumes MS can be awakened with enough training. This is the weakest reason, as it completely contradicts Itachi's states he needs to kill a friend for it.

That reason for awakening it never made sense anyway. And it's also a half-assed explaination.

[quote]2. Kakashi remembered Obito's "death" to reawaken it.[quote]

Again, I would love to know how. Second, Obito's death did not reawaken it. It's not 100% clear whether it was awakened by the act of killing RIN or it was awaken because Obito witnessed it and they evolved at the same time because they connect (that was a new one, too). It happened at the same time AND just after Obito sees that vision (which made no sense).

[Codus N]

You're proffering the theory, I'm not hear to justify it for you. Again, you're assuming THAT's why he fainted. Kakashi has said that as of right now. It's possible that is why. It's possible from it's pure exhaustion or whatever injuries he suffered during the fight, or a combination of all three. We don't have an answer for that yet.

What other purpose is their for bring in Sasuke? If I don't find that explanation any more probable that your current one, it means nothing to me as an argument. You say this happened to Sasuke, so it could happen to Kakashi. But if I find the former half-assed, then, so what if it happend to Sasuke? In fact, to address, I kind of miss the point of even doing what he did there. Why go back an alter the original awakening anyway?

Nope, no clue what PTSD is. Never heard of it before.

You got upset at me calling it a ret-con, but all you offer is "probably." Maybe Kakashi will fill in those particular holes, but it doesn't fill me with delight to think he suddenly remembers it during a 3 year time-skip (i.e. off screen) and that he has PTSD when no bothers to mention it...well, ever. It would be an awfully convienient explanation to NOW learn he has such a mental illness at the same time Kishimoto offers an explanation of how he got hold of a jutsu that was absent for the entirety of Part 1.

In fact, given the problems people with PTSD experience it would be lovely to learn that he has it at the exact moment it serves as a bail-out for an author who has been really....vague...about how this whole thing works for a long time. Maybe he recieved long-term counseling right away and it ceased to be a problem right after it quits serving as useful explanation for a plot hole or maybe the ONLY negative effect of it was forgetting about how his teammates died even as honors their death on an almost daily basis (while not knowing precisely what happened to them).

It's a half-baken explanation no matter which way you slice it.

Even if I agreed with your theory and Kishimoto used it. I'd still says it sucks.



That reason for awakening it never made sense anyway. And it's also a half-assed explaination.


Again, I would love to know how. Second, Obito's death did not reawaken it. It's not 100% clear whether it was awakened by the act of killing RIN or it was awaken because Obito witnessed it and they evolved at the same time because they connect (that was a new one, too). It happened at the same time AND just after Obito sees that vision (which made no sense).

Ah, I see. Sorry for snapping at you. I suppose I misunderstood what you were trying to say. But that said, I have a better understanding of your views my purpose to bring in Sasuke was to set a precedent for Kakashi's situation.

Regarding Kakashi's PTSD, I don't really think it has to be outright stated in the manga, but if you consider Kishi's style, he shows emotional stuff like these through their actions and mannerisms. And since we know Kakashi's habits, and with recent developments, all things certainly point to PTSD symptoms from him. I can understand if it's "convenient", but at least it's better than an outright asspull. Remember the infamous hawk summons?? yeah, that one.

For the awakenings, I did say the first one would be the stupidest explanation I've heard. Second, doesn't the Sharingan give you photographic memory?? so yeah, the memory of Obito's "death" would've been the trigger for his reawakening. The awakening originally happened with Rin's death, but due to amnesia he had to reawaken it. Since he can't remember her death, he used Obito's "death" as a trigger. At least that's what I'm going with.

[James S Cassidy]

It's a half-baken explanation no matter which way you slice it.

Not to be rude, but may I ask what kind of answer are you looking for?

We could come up with theories all day on why Kakashi neglected the fact that he had the MS, but the real kicker is what is the answer you would be more inclined to accept? Just saying that's all. You might get an answer, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is not an legitimate answer.

Just saying that's all.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 17 October 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[Jake]

Wow, I can't believe I forget it came out today.

This was a very sad but also incredible epic chapter. Finally Obitos story is resolved. Means were going back to normal next week.

I wouldn't say that just yet, I have a horrible feeling that it's going to continue for a couple more weeks.

There's so many different parallels to Team 7 now I would not be surprised if the next plot twist was that Hashirama and Madara were part of a team and there was a female in there who was the Sakura of their group and that's who Madara wants to bring back and who Sasuke and Orochimaru are going to see.

I doubt that because before the Hashirama and Madara founded the village when someone hired the Senju clan the other side would hire the Uchiha clan and vice versa so they sure as hell didn't serve on a team together because after the village was founded Hashirama was busy being Hokage and all.

So it was actually true that Madara did indeed give the Rinnegan to Nagato and that only the Uchiha can use it. I guess this makes sense since they inherited the sages eyes, chakra and spiritual energy.

While I did not want Nagato's Rinnegan to be Madara's eyes I am happy with the way that it turned out because it isn't something that and Uchiha can just obtain, they have to have Senju DNA, but in theory a Senju could awaken the Rinnegan if they were to get the Sharingan.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Based on what Suigetsu said, I think Sasuke is probably headed toward a similar conclusion as Obito. The primary difference is that Sasuke will never get the same chance to leave as much blood in his wake. I added the caveat earlier because I think Sasuke is going to end up in similar place as Obito once he gets his answers. Straight revenge isn't the motivation anymore and Sasuke will need something that poses an active threat to people so Naruto's justifications for going after him don't evaporate.

Don't forget Danzou.

You're not wrong about that, Nate. Considering Naruto has given up on Sasuke returning to the village and he has to stop him when it comes down to it, even if it means he has to kill him. In the end, Sasuke still is guilty of nasty things, like his trying to kill the Kages to get at Danzo and so much more.

Yeah, good point on Danzo for sure. And he's had a lot of involvement with other characters, and someone hinted last chapter it COULD be his fault for whatever happened to Rin...

[merryGOflava]

poor obito........i cant help but feel bad for him....probably because he acted to much like naruto.....and i could never imagine naruto doing this....

it feels like obito's motivation was a mix between

trauma (his "death')
betrayal (kakashi)
and death (rin)


i feels like it was to much for him to handle and decided selfishly that everyone would be better off living in a paradise than reality.


i know his action aren't excusable, but i still feel bad for him........