I find this to be the run-to example for the NS insistence that she sees him as more than a friend. Granted, it may have been slightly flirty. But, then again, it had also been 2 1/2 important years in their growth and maturity. And only in that case have we ever heard her ask Naruto's opinion about her, let alone about her physical appearance. Its significance seems more in a "glad to see you, look how much you've grown" gesture rather than any type of seduction.
Indeed. That is one way of looking at it.
She, after all, already knew that she had him in the palm of her hand.
How?
And what, exactly, are these other "multiple instances" that do not only involve smiles, tears, or someone else's near observation that she "really lo--?"
None. But then again, smiles, tears and external observation is good enough, at least for speculation.
And that is a poor example. Because there is no speculation at all about 2+2=4. It is a demonstrable fact, and we've known it since before the dawn of civilization. To claim that it is 5 is an outrageous one, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
True.
In this case, especially because both sides are largely based on speculation, it would take much more consideration on your part when faced with an objection. To truly consider it, you would have to drop your bias altogether, step back to objectivity, and re-evaluate everything you have come to think about the basis of that pairing, especially where their proposal is relevant.
Which is exactly what I meant when I said that I would first consider my opponents argument and then consider my own argument.
Exactly.
Which is why I think it's pointless to try and always apply things like hard logic to shipping arguments.
No, man, observation is the step that comes before hypothesis. A hypothesis is a proposal of what that observation means.
Which is what I just said.
"Heavier objects fall at the same rate as lighter objects" is the observation. "The mass of an object does not alter gravity's effect" is the hypothesis. The proper thing to do is to observe all of the contact Naruto has had with all potential mates in the series, then weigh the significance of each before you filter any of them through what you like versus what you don't. As it turns out, this route still leads to NaruSaku. But it was an objective way to get there.
"There seems to be a certain chemistry between Naruto and Sakura" is the observation. "Naruto and Sakura will end up together" is the hypothesis.
Then what is their take on the rejection of Sakura's confession? Do they believe she was being truthful?
I'm not sure. I've only ever encountered these types of fans through fanfics and none of them ever really touched upon her confession.
And I really don't. The links are loose and frail, and they're grasping at straws. Kushina is largely like Sakura, but mostly in the hot temper. Aside from when she was pregnant, we never saw much of her caring side. She was also never timid about being picked on, nor did she ever hope for acceptance or admiration so much as respect, and even fear, if necessary. Plus, even if we can say that Kushina is like Sakura, Naruto is nothing like Minato. He was cool, level-headed, and in no way clumsy. He came off as that proud elite that he was, much like Sasuke, although not dark in personality. In this, the "parallel" actually works against NS. The supposed parallel between Tsunade and Jiraiya is also flawed. Namely, Naruto never quarreled with Sakura. Sakura did not have another love interest that returned her feelings. And even if these were true, we never saw Tsunade actually admit to loving Jiraiya. Not even in their middle-age, and not even after he died. That, too, works against NS. The "parallels" argument is thoroughly broken and ill thought out. It only works when you cherry pick the details that are in your favor and ignore those that are not.
And what exactly is so wrong with cherry picking? Even though MinaKushi and JiraTsu isn't 100% like NaruSaku, you still can't deny that obvious similarities between them and that should still count for something.
And those who don't give any significance to them do not deserve to be taken seriously when they claim to be so sure that their pairing is inevitable. Even in the case of NS. I don't care if they agree or not. The moment that someone says they do not care about objective fact, they openly admit that there is no reason to believe them.
If you only look at things through cold hard facts, then none of the big three really has any chance of happening. But please, enlighten me. Tell me why you think NS will happen.
And I'm going to tell you the exact same thing I have told all of them. That is not how an animation team works. Decisions about what will or will not happen in any animated production, long before the storyboards and x-sheets hit the floor, are made far above the animators heads by a single person. The author of the script. Then, after it's edited and approved, we start seeing development of key scenes and transitions. Then the production of storyboards. Then voice acting and x-sheets. Then key frames. Then inbetweens and pencil tests. Then final renderings and editorial screening. Then final cuts. Then, and only then, is it released. The animation team itself has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the story. If you want to blame anyone at all, blame the person/persons writing the scripts. And mind you, all of these things are filtered through market tests. Whatever it is about the manga with which the general readers identify and like. Be the shippers or not.
Even so, my point still stands. Also, when people talk about how Pierrot is biased towards NH, they don't mean the actual animation team. They're not stupid. They know how these things work and they know that these kinds of decisions aren't made by the animators, but instead by the "higher ups".
And for the record, I have yet to see once where they made a grievous error in any lore, powers, or character traits that haven't been whined about solely by shippers, and only against those involved in their pairings.
Naruto episode 151. Now Hinata can suddenly use the Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms technique. But wait. Now she can also shoot small chakra lasers from the palm of her hands. But wait. She can also control the size of these small chakra lasers. But wait. This new technique is essentially like Neji's Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven, except that this is both an absolute defense
and an extremely effective offensive technique. So basically Hinata just surpassed Neji, you know, a genius. Yeah I know that a big part of the series revolves around how, with hard work, you can surpass anyone. Even a genius. Still, this is ridiculous.
And so what if it's only "shipping" things that are the victim of this? It's still a distortion of Kishi's work.
Edited by TerrorKing, 18 July 2012 - 01:36 PM.