113 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

Hm... So, in essence...

Alpha = Pitcher
Beta = Catcher
Gamma = Both?

So... Since Naruto is Gamma (which I agree on) and Sakura's Alpha, Naruto would be catcher, so to speak. So what if Naruto and Sakura were both Alpha?

....

No, Sakura is the female Gamma type. Both Naruto and Sakura are Gamma types.

Ino and Karin are the female Alpha types. You can see it the strongest in their sexuality. Ino dresses and holds herself showing a confident dominance in her sexuality. Karin never overtly displays her sexual attraction to Sasuke when Suigetsu or Juugo are around, but leeringly thinks of ravaging Sasuke while he was unconcious, jumps right to coming on strong, overtly sexual when she is alone with Sasuke.

Hinata and Kurenai are Betas, even mild teasing by a friend about their feelings for another causes embarassment

Sakura and Tsunade are Gammas. They are quite open in gestures of affection, open about their romantic feelings in public, most likely of the three types to get swept away by their passions in public.

Those type Alpha and Beta females believe one must have control in their passions. Alpha's to be in control of the situation, Betas out discomfort of being the center of attention. There are openly sexual types in Alpha and Beta types, and the openly sexual Beta type comes close the Gamma type's sexuality, but there's more self-restraint in their actions- they don't get swept away. Anko would probably be the best example in Naruto of the overtly sexual Alpha female and Orochimaru the overtly sexual Alpha male.

[Froot]

Ah. I get it.

Though I'd have to disagree with Orochimaru being overtly sexual. He seems a little asexual to me.

So, Naruto and Sakura are both Gamma... What would that make Sasuke? If he was attracted to women, I mean. I'm thinking he would be Gamma, too.

[ciardha]

Ah. I get it.

Though I'd have to disagree with Orochimaru being overtly sexual. He seems a little asexual to me.

So, Naruto and Sakura are both Gamma... What would that make Sasuke? If he was attracted to women, I mean. I'm thinking he would be Gamma, too.

No, he's an Alpha. He's still pretty asexual with women, but remember what I said about his love/hate feelings for Naruto? Look how he exerts dominance over Naruto when they met up in the Grass Country arc... pure Alpha male.

[Paradox Jast]

Going back to the original question (not to detract from the Alpha, et al talk, it's been interesting to read) I don't know if I've ever really bothered to take a look at them on the purely 'sexual' level, to be honest. Whenever I approach those two, I generally have to take a look at it from a more romantic point of view, perhaps then escalating to the sexual level from there.

I think part of that was explained in the following discussion about Alpha/Beta/Gamma levels. I mean, all you have to do is take a browse through most of the entries on fanfic.net to understand that a majority of fanfic writers tend to follow the same trends.

Sasuke - Virtually always ends up as the dominant one in every fic he's in. From glossing over the summaries of Yaoi fics, if it is a Sasu/any guy, it's typically Sasuke as the alpha while everyone else has to suffer through the mpreg.

Ino - Absolutely alpha female. In nearly all fics, Ino is the go-getter of the fic. In NaruIno fics, she's nearly always the 'look whats right here for you' one, or the one who takes it upon herself to pull Naruto out of whatever slump he's in. With NaruSakuIno fics, she's generally written as the one who has the idea to bring in Sakura, or Sakura goes to her for approval.

Hinata - In the fics that actually have her in-character where she doesn't grow a new backbone out of thin air, it's always Naruto (or other male/female) that has to have her open up. It's just how it works.

As for Naruto and Sakura, I think their Gamma traits are fairly obvious:
- Comfortable how they feel -sexually or romantically - about another person, but generally have no urgent need to explain those feelings to others (beta trait).
- Not afraid to show how they feel in front of others, should that occur or be necessary (alpha trait).
- Comfortable with their sexuality (alpha trait) - Naruto is willing to gender bend for laughs, Sakura willing to 'whistle' at SasukexSai action.
- I'm sure that if someone other than Sai (the emotionally inept one, no sense pulling the wool over his eyes) talked to both Naruto and Sakura about their feelings for each other, we probably would have gotten them both blushing and something close to a stuttering denial (beta trait).

Delving back into the NaruSaku sexual-ness, I can't envision it happening without romance being the fuel for it. I've taken a gander at fics that just try to get right into their relationship like they were two rabbits - it doesn't work. The interesting thing about them both being Gamma, is that their relationship can rock back and forth on the pendulum. I have no trouble seeing Naruto playing the Alpha part while Sakura changes to a more Beta status (gets uncomfortable/shy when asked about him by others). On the flip side, I can envision plenty of scenarios where that is completely flipped, where Sakura goes Alpha and Naruto turns Beta, though Naruto going Beta would most likely be thanks to Sakura's Tsundere personality (he'd be quiet and shy if asked or teased because Sakura would beat him up otherwise). In that instance, Naruto would have more of a forced-Beta status, I do have a bit of a hard time imagining him being shy about his relationship with Sakura... he's been chasing her forever. He only would if she wanted him to be, then he would be glad to keep quiet.

I think a Tsundere girl is more likely to be a Gamma than anything else, while a Yandere one is probably closer to Beta... but that is another can of worms.



Anyway (sorry, heh) once their relationship is established, I think they just mesh well together, probably because they are both Gamma-types. Neither becoming wholly dominant over the other. It adds to the 'sexual-ocity' (harhar new word... sorta) because it's easy to imagine either of them being dominant in the bedroom, passing the torch of dominance back and forth to each other. At least I have no problem envisioning that. If it's with Ino, I can't see her wanting to give the torch up, while with Hinata, I can't see her ever wanting to take it. Sakura is the only one I can envision who would willingly give and take it.

As a Gamma male myself (at least thats what I consider myself to be), being with a Gamma female would be an incredible turn on. It may be the reason I enjoy NaruSaku so much. *shrug*

[socermania2]

Alpha? Beta? Gamma?

Explain NOW!

[Paradox Jast]

It was in the posts above mine.

Essentially:

Alpha - confident, outgoing in regards to your own sexuality and how you deal with the opposite sex
Beta - uneasy when dealing with opposite sex, lack of confidence, more introverted
Gamma - Mix of the two. Can be confident in regards to own sexuality but still uneasy when dealing with opposite sex, etc...

Being a Beta may sound like a bad thing, but it's not really, it's just a descriptor for that type of person.

In an Alpha-Beta relationship, the Alpha one is typically always the more confident one. The one willing to try new things, isn't afraid of PDA's, stuff like that.
Alpha-Alpha relationships have a harder time working out, because both personalities will likely be in conflict quite often.
Beta-Beta will likewise have a hard time even getting off the ground, probably without an outside Alpha or Gamma willing to work as the prodding force, the two will never get together. Even then, any relationship would likely be boring and fraught with unnecessary worries.
Gamma-Alpha, Gamma-Beta, and Gamma-Gamma can all work out, at least in my opinion. Of the three, Gamma-Alpha would probably be the hardest to maintain, but Gamma-Beta and Gamma-Gamma are potentially great matches.


I think I just explained that a little more than I needed to. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if I got some stuff totally wrong... but at least this is how I interpret it.

Edited by Paradox Jast, 29 November 2009 - 06:12 PM.

[ciardha]

I think a Tsundere girl is more likely to be a Gamma than anything else, while a Yandere one is probably closer to Beta... but that is another can of worms.

Yeah, not completely but definite similarities, the main differences being the Gamma female doesn't hide her softer more romantic side, it's present along with the hot temper, etc... and the Beta doesn't turn into the psychotic monster the yandere does.

Anyway (sorry, heh) once their relationship is established, I think they just mesh well together, probably because they are both Gamma-types. Neither becoming wholly dominant over the other. It adds to the 'sexual-ocity' (harhar new word... sorta) because it's easy to imagine either of them being dominant in the bedroom, passing the torch of dominance back and forth to each other. At least I have no problem envisioning that. If it's with Ino, I can't see her wanting to give the torch up, while with Hinata, I can't see her ever wanting to take it. Sakura is the only one I can envision who would willingly give and take it.

As a Gamma male myself (at least thats what I consider myself to be), being with a Gamma female would be an incredible turn on. It may be the reason I enjoy NaruSaku so much. *shrug*

Yep, I'm a Gamma type female and I'm always drawn the strongest to Gamma type characters in fiction, and if a couple are Gammas I'm going to ship them majorly. Although if the types match otherwise I tend to like it- two Betas- Belldandy and Keichi (very sweet romance). Two Alphas are interesting, but a bit disturbing, especially if they are both the more sexual types (out comes all the kinky S&M stuff, even sex being a constant battle for who is the most dominant in the relationship), where with Gamma types they switch back and forth, with the Gamma male being slightly more sexually dominant because the female Gamma loves being swept away by passion and the Gamma male loves seeing this ultimate act of love and trust by the woman he loves, but he also likes seeing her take the initiative as well and is likely to tease her into jumping him sometimes.

Edited by ciardha, 29 November 2009 - 07:01 PM.

[Freakazoid]

I'm pretty sure Sasuke isn't gay, guys. And I'm also pretty sure he isn't asexual either. No my friends, the fact of the matter is that Sasuke has a one-track mind, it has nothing to do with his non-existent love life. It's not that Sasuke isn't attracted to anyone, it's the simple fact that he doesn't care. Sasuke is obsessed with revenge, and doesn't want anything to get in the way of that. Part of the problem with some of the psychobabble is that it sometimes complicates simple matters. In Sasuke's case, it truly does. His story is simple, his world revolved around revenge. If it doesn't help him, then it's irrelevant; that's his thought process. Nothing more, nothing less.

Or he could just actually be gay.

[Mugen no Neko]

Or he could just actually be gay.

All the gamma, beta, alpha is just... woooow confusing, but interesting.

[Froot]

It cetainly is intersting. Thanks ciardha and Jast for your insight They're the first real theories I've heard on this thread

Question time: Now that I've got an idea as to what Alpha/Beta/Gamma are, could someone explain Tsundere and Yandere?

I'm pretty sure I know what Tsundere is... Basically, bipolar? Even though Sakura is alot less bipolar than other Tsundere girls.

But what side is Tsun and what side is Dere?

Also, is Tsundere only for girls?

What is Yandere? I've never heard of it before. Are there more types?

Sorry for all the questions I'm still learning.

[Paradox Jast]

I don't know if I'd really call Tsundere or Yandere 'bipolar', at least not in the sense that people typically think about bipolarity.

A Tsundere person is basically one that is very strong willed, and isn't afraid to smack around the other sex a bit. Not -literally-, though that usually happens if the Tsundere person is a girl, but in general they aren't afraid to state their opinions - and woe be anyone who gets in their way. That's the 'Tsun' portion. The 'dere' portion is the more gentle side... it's usually shown when something 'compromising' happens. So a Tsundere girl is yelling at a guy for being an idiot because he was gone for a long time and she might have gotten worried, but he was out getting her a gift and gave it to her... she suddenly turns all coy, still being upset with him but likely blushing and still trying to stutter out that 'I'm just going easy on you this time, I'm still mad at you.'

Pretty much a rough exterior with a gentle loving interior... if the person who cares about them can make it that far.

Here's an image that I found on the web which is also a good example for at least the basic range of emotions. You can even plug in what I said earlier into this picture. She's upset and worried, but then gets a gift, and is more mellow and blushing, but still agitated.
Tsundere

Now Yandere... it's a lot easier to explain. A Yandere person is one who is gentle and loving from the beginning, but if attention isn't paid to them constantly, they get a bit psychotic. If someone claims that they love a Yandere person, the Yandere will want to be with them, forever - no ifs, ands, or buts about it. As soon as they start to wander even the slightest bit, they'll get stalked by the Yandere person, will constantly try to reaffirm that they are loved, and some might go so far as to torture their 'love' to make sure that they love no one else. It's definitely a lot more creepy than Tsundere, but I suppose if you continually love the Yandere person faithfully, that side may never even appear. But it probably does make for a decent story. In most stories with a specified 'Yandere' character (depending on how serious the story is), they'll have a signature weapon that they'll use throughout.


Tsundere - Starts off cold and abusive but ends up kind and loving.
Yandere - Starts off kind and loving but ends up cold and psychotic.


Tsundere and Yandere are not gender specific, though typically its only a girl who is described by those two. The reason for this is because females are generally more emotional overall than males... thats just the way it is.

Finally, there really are only the two terms, Tsundere and Yandere, because they are generally perceived as opposites of each other. One starts abusive (to varying degrees) and one ends up abusive (to varying degrees).

Edited by Paradox Jast, 30 November 2009 - 01:33 PM.

[Jenskott]

This discussion is pretty interesting. Personally I think Jast has made a damned fine point and has hit the ruxis of the matter.

Question time: Now that I've got an idea as to what Alpha/Beta/Gamma are, could someone explain Tsundere and Yandere?

Hopefully these links will solve your doubts:

TVTropes: Tsundere
TVTropes: Yandere

But in short a tsundere may be hostile, hot-blooded, aggresive, easily angerable and even slightly violent, but she also may be sweet, caring, tender and compassive. Often the first personality is used like a mask for hiding the second personality (like Akane Tendo), or she uses each personality with different persons (Asuka Langley).

Yandere is... obsessive and crazy ax.

[Froot]

Ah... Okay! Thanks, you two. I gets it now

So, Sakura would be described as a Tsundere the, right?

I've noticed that almost all of my favorite female characters are Tsundere's. The others, I don't care for as much...

[Jenskott]

So, Sakura would be described as a Tsundere the, right?

Indeed.

I've noticed that almost all of my favorite female characters are Tsundere's. The others, I don't care for as much...

I also tend to pay them more attention. Maybe it's because they stood out a lot?

Edited by Jenskott, 30 November 2009 - 02:35 PM.

[Kenny-kun]

I don't see much sexual about NaruSaku other than Sakura using her superstrength and going all dominatrix with Naruto.

[ciardha]

I don't see much sexual about NaruSaku other than Sakura using her superstrength and going all dominatrix with Naruto.

Not the tsundere female style (nor Gamma females either) sexually they are giving and passionately romantic, really love to be sexually "swept away". Takahashi even hinted at that a couple of times with Akane- she had a mental flashes of Ranma making a sexually assertive move on her and in her mental image she was reacting in a "swept away" fashion).

Sakura and Naruto show the gamma type passionate natures and in the gamma type passionate emotionally=passionate sexually- the sexual energizer bunnies, once they get their hands on each other they crave it near constantly, it's not just the lust aspect but the intense romantic bond of coming together sexually. Sakura also has what is really typical in female gamma types, a playful flirtatious side, male gammas exhibit a flirtatious side with a more overt sexual undertone, Naruto has shown that side once, when he was in henge in chapter 3, to Sakura.

Get Naruto and Sakura past the hurdles they are dealing with now, and Naruto accepting Sakura does love him and he'll more than likely start showing that side openly to Sakura.

[James S Cassidy]

But in short a tsundere may be hostile, hot-blooded, aggresive, easily angerable and even slightly violent, but she also may be sweet, caring, tender and compassive. Often the first personality is used like a mask for hiding the second personality (like Akane Tendo), or she uses each personality with different persons (Asuka Langley).

Yandere is... obsessive and crazy ax.

Cause you're hot and you're cold
You're yes and you're no
You're in and you're out
You're up and you're down

You're wrong when it's right
You're black and it's white
We fight, we break up
We hug, we make up

[I heart donuts]

Yup! That song pretty much sums up their different personalities!

[RedDelicious]

I don't see much sexual about NaruSaku other than Sakura using her superstrength and going all dominatrix with Naruto.

You make it sound like it is all Sakura forcing herself on Naruto. Go back to chapter 246. With a smile on his face, he thinks "I should stop playing around in front of Sakura... She could kill me!" He enjoys seeing her strength, and deliberately goofs around her because he enjoys their playful interaction. It is not about domination.

Yup! That song pretty much sums up their different personalities!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think ciardha's point is that they are not different (or one dominating the other). They have very similar personalities. The manifesto points out how much they like being together, doing the same things, similar reactions to situations, and joy in seeing the other succeed.

This started all the way back in chapter 4. Even though she still hated Naruto back then, and wanted nothing to do with Naruto's prank with the eraser, we still see Inner Sakura saying, "I love these kind of things!"

Edited by RedDelicious, 13 December 2009 - 02:58 AM.

[I heart donuts]

When I meant different personalities, I didn't mean THEY were opposites. I'm talking about how one moment they are open, understand each other, and work together as a team, and the next moment, Sakura's hitting Naruto to who-knows-where, in a comedic fashion! Sorry about the confusion!