112 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

Naruto on break next week ,just when we are going to return to naruto's fight

ALWAYS WHEN IT'S ABOUT TO GET GOOD....

So.... --Click here to view--

like everyone else, I'm also wondering whether Madara would disappear. I think he should. Like TerrorKing said, it think that's just a preview of Sasuke's Susano-o. I mean we're talking about Sasuke here, of course he's gonna do the same thing. And Madara already said only a bijuu could be a match to that. So Naruto's bijuu mode versus Sasuke's perfect Susano-o. That would be awesome. But anyway, how the heck did the first hokage beat Madara if that Uchiha has both the Susano-o and the 9-tails?

PRETTY SAD if he did. I really want his smug a** kicked

Thoughts --Click here to view--

It was a nice chapter we finally get to see Naruto's face in one panel. What will happen now? Without no enemy to fight from the edo tensei the only one left is Tobi. I guess the end of the war is almost near and Sasuke might try to interfere after all.

Yeah.

Mito Uzumaki, Kushina already told Naruto that way back in the early 500's. Madara just couldn't deal with a woman kicking his butt, so he pretends it was just Hashirama. THe Uzumaki women are the most badass women in the manga, you know.

Technically she did not directly beat the living S**T out of Madara but she WAS instrumental in his defeat for sure. And aren't you ignoring Sakura for being one of the most bad ass women?

Mito Uzumaki was not present for the battle between Hashirama and Madara, Kushina says that the first Hokage gained control of the Kyuubi during the battle and that Mito sealed it within herself...it doesn't mention when, it's likely that the sealing happened after the battle was over, so Madara saying it was between the Hashirama and himself he is most likely speaking the truth.

That was actually quite cool the power of Madara's Sasanoo, we might be seeing that beast again if Madara makes a return like it was originally planned between him and Tobi. Overpowered to the max damn powerful...but why must the Uchiha's get all the cool toy, and how did Hashirama battle not only Madara but the most powerful Bijuu AND a Bijuu level Sasanoo.

I am seriously having trouble understanding Sasuke's logic...he's like a spoilt brat...he's doing the exact opposite of what he is being told because he knows his brother doesn't want him to do that.

Edit: Actually with the undead jutsu released I wonder if Tobi will retreat for now? Afterall it is now only him vs the entire ninja world.

no arguments there Kage Nate

1. Do you have any idea how Itachi got Kabuto to make the seals to dispel it? It has the feeling of the Underpants Gnomes.

Step 1: Use Izanami.

Step 2: ?

Step 3: Kabuto performs release.

I didn't see the how and I wonder if I missed it.

2. Totally agree on Sasuke's logic making no sense. They made you suffer even though you have repeatedly stated your love of the village and even just five seconds ago said Naruto would finish your job making it clear as hell how you feel about it. And what's more your actions make it clear you aren't holding huge grudges against Konoha itself, but I must hold one on your behalf....because...well.....uh...............

He used two basics reason, I'm the younger so I have to do the opposite and as revenge for ITACHI's suffering despite the fact Itachi doesn't seek it for his own suffering. Sasuke could say it was for his personal suffering and that would make more sense, but much of his suffering was because of Itachi.

3. If Madara does disappear then it's a set up for Sasuke using it. So well, see. Why else would Madara say it's on the level of a Bijuu although if Sasuke can shut it down like he did earlier I'm not sure why is this needed? Good Lord, I'm thinking the Sharingan is getting so hacked that by the end of the series the Sharingan will be able to do laundry so Sasuke doesn't have to.

I Think so. Well the Sharingan IS hacked but hey it's been getting hacks heaven pretty recently so what do you expect?

The chapter was alright. Again, I'm still hoping that this isn't the end of Kabuto's influence on the plot. I was glad to see that Kimimaro and Chiyo weren't beaten by the Naruto clones and that they were kicking ass even afterwards; that makes the fact that their fights were off-screened a little more bearable. Deidara was fun to see again. Well, now the boring jinchuuriki are gone and it's just Tobi alone at least. Finally, we can actually see Tobi himself throw down.

I'm also hoping that Madara somehow sticks around...well, in a way that makes sense, of course. Otherwise...another waste. :/ And after the mess of how Kabuto was defeated, I don't think I'll be able to take another wasted villain.

Well Kabuto isn't dead yet is he?

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 June 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[Super Boom]

I was glad to see that Kimimaro and Chiyo weren't beaten by the Naruto clones and that they were kicking ass even afterwards; that makes the fact that their fights were off-screened a little more bearable. Deidara was fun to see again.

Yeah, that was kinda the highlight for me too. After the the plot split into the three big fights, I lost faith in seeing any of the rookies fight off the remaining Edos, but it was nice to see they weren't off-panelled. Though I suppose this was only a slight step better. It was cool to see Deidara one last time though. I miss the original Akatsuki members. Tobi and Zetsu were the only ones I didn't care for, so of course they'd be the last ones left.

I hope we're done with Sasuke's plot for a little while. I really want to find this manga interesting again. You can do it, Kishi!

[ultranx]

Thanks, Quinny. I forgot about those things. I also forgot that the Madara who is fighting has supposedly been overclocked by Kabuto. So his strength is greater than when he fought the 1st hokage. Do we ever know who the third ET Orochimaru was going to summon during the Post-Chuunin exams in part one was? I assumed it was going to be Yondaime. If that's true... It wouldn't make much sense. Time to go back to part 1.

all kages 1-4 and kushina had their souls sealed away. they can't become edo tensei. and jiraya is at the bottom of the ocean so him too can't become one. the same sealing technique the 3rd hokage used on himself and the 1st and 2nd is the same sealing technique minato and kushina used to seal kurama in naruto. minato and kushina couldn't have been summoned in the first place.

Edited by ultranx, 07 June 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[RedDelicious]

I also forgot that the Madara who is fighting has supposedly been overclocked by Kabuto.

Thank you for acknowledging this. I've mentioned this since the start of the fight. Madara is arrogant enough to act like he was always this tough, but the reader knows that he was upgraded as a zombie.

I think on some level, Sasuke is finally getting back at Itachi for all the mind games.

Even now, how has Itachi acted?
When Sasuke says that he blames the Leaf Village for what happened to Itachi, he is told that he is wrong. (Despite the fact that Itachi tricked Sasuke into killing him, so that Sasuke would look better in the eyes of the Village elders.)
When Sasuke talks about the love he had for his brother, Itachi mentions how much he respects Naruto, who will carry on Itachi's will.
When Sasuke is looking for validation on becoming a strong ninja, Itachi says he blames himself for how much of a disappointment Sasuke has become.

So whether active or subconsciously, Sasuke is sticking it to Itachi.
All the warm talk about their brotherly relationship didn't make Sasuke want to follow Itachi's lead, but instead reminded him of what he lost due to Danzo's scheming. And strengthened his resolve that Itachi is misguided, that wiping out the Leaf Village is the right thing to do.

[Serenity Namikaze]

I like the chapter and finally, the fight with the two uchiha brother vs kabuto is finish. I was actually more interested in Kabuto's flashback then the actual fight. I have a little hope that Kabuto might escape but for now, he's trap. The only thing that I'm sad about seeing ET being desactivated is that we'll miss great opportunities for fight with characters like Chiyo for example.

Like many said before me, Sasuke logic is weak and really, I much rather like him as spycho Sasuke with the crazy laugh over this Sasuke. Really, the only time that I want to see Sasuke is when he'll fight against Naruto but beside that, I don't give a damn about him, his 'developement' is just dull IMO

Also, yeah for seeing Naruto again and yes, with wounded, it show that he actually fight.

[Dragunov]

Hmm. I guess I see it differently. Sasuke is not using any logic, per se, because he's insane. No justification exists for Sasuke's viewpoint or actions, but he persists with both because he's insane.

I feel this Sasuke meshes with insane Sasuke precisely because he's still...insane. The only difference in the last few chapters is what he just stated -- that being near Itachi temporarily reminded him of old feelings, of when he was happy... of belonging, of when he had something in his life besides revenge and hatred, etc. It's those positive feelings that Sasuke can't make any sense of, can't put in perspective, or relate to anymore because he can't handle how they make him feel. Sasuke appears to have experienced a psychotic break. (Like when you find out how/why Hannibal Lecter became a cannibal; it doesn't make logical sense either, especially considering his motivation, but that's the point.) I think Kishimoto's characterization of Sasuke is pretty realistic, personally.

And I can't get past the thought that we're going to see some of this again somehow. Sasuke has benefitted from all of Itachi's explanations of Izanagi, Izanami, Edo Tensei, and the seal pattern of its release. We still don't know what Suigetsu and Jugo found in Orochimaru's hidden lab that may "help Sasuke." If the individual paths of the Sannin were foreshadowing for Team 7, is it impossible that we'll see Sasuke get closer to achieving Orochimaru's goals before this is over?

Well, I can clearly see your argument, and its very well backed up, but, it makes me wonder: was it Kishimoto's intention to make Sasuke appear this insane. It seems that as though because of his hatred, he's lost his grasp on sanity. But, was that Kishimoto's perspective? Albeit this, the validity of this statement is accurate. Make my day, KnS

[sushi.]

Gaara.

well, anyways
I hope Tobi is wounded too.

--
tobi is a good boy.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Well it's possible but remembering what he said soon as he was revived, Tobi and Madara had planned to have him revived in some form anyway so it's entirely possible that we will be seeing Madara return soon. Specially with Tobi facing 50,000 Ninja's and two perfect Jinchuriki's on his own, so next chapter might be retrieval time for Tobi, reviving Madara and going for the counter later on.

i dont think madara will be revived, because he should be revived way before and madara was surprised when he got revived by edo tensei the most probably thing is
Madara got betrayed by this tobi!

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

all kages 1-4 and kushina had their souls sealed away. they can't become edo tensei. and jiraya is at the bottom of the ocean so him too can't become one. the same sealing technique the 3rd hokage used on himself and the 1st and 2nd is the same sealing technique minato and kushina used to seal kurama in naruto. minato and kushina couldn't have been summoned in the first place.

kushina does not have her soul sealed off , i think kishi didnt wanted her to "ressurrect"

[sushi.]

kushina does not have her soul sealed off , i think kishi didnt wanted her to "ressurrect"

Isn't she sealed within Naruto?

[ultranx]

Isn't she sealed within Naruto?

yes she is, which is what i meant.

[harry4e]

Isn't she sealed within Naruto?

Not quite 100% sure but I beleive it was her chakra that was sealed not the soul...I don't think it would be possible to resurrect her anymore as she when she left within Naruto she left content, happy and with a clear concience of seeing her son not hate her and has turned out to be someone she would be proud of so like with Sasori and Sai's brother she would have passed on with the chains of regret no longer binding her to this world, and even if her soul wasn't sealed in Naruto I think the imprint left inside Naruto would have passed on the feeling to her soul when is dispersed, like a Shadow Clone does when is disperses.....Hmm...I wonder if that was why this Jutsu was originally created to allow Ninja's stuck in Lingo to accept their fate and pass on?

[sushi.]

Sasuke didn't look evil now. He looks like he wants to make up for his brother or something. Like he feels sympathy. It's not like when he attacked the kage summit, he looked rather psycho then. I think it's possible to bend him over now, the expression of rage is not even clear anymore.

[KnS]

Well, I can clearly see your argument, and its very well backed up, but, it makes me wonder: was it Kishimoto's intention to make Sasuke appear this insane. It seems that as though because of his hatred, he's lost his grasp on sanity. But, was that Kishimoto's perspective? Albeit this, the validity of this statement is accurate. Make my day, KnS

This is a trick question, since only Kishimoto knows for sure, but I will say yes, I think it's been his intention.

The way I see it, manga, as a storytelling medium, can't directly address every aspect of plot and individual characterization. There aren't going to be any dialogue/explanation bubbles (or diagrams, lol) that say, "Notice how Sasuke is starting to go crazy -- right here in this panel." A lot of the narrative information is provided in broad terms over a very long period of time, and has to be parsed by the reader -- which is what leads to so many interpretations. (And so many disappointments when the mangaka doesn't give enough time or attention to something readers are keen on.) This happens some in literature, too, but maybe not quite as easily.

Point being, in my opinion Kishimoto has been suggesting Sasuke's slide from instability into madness from the beginning. I mean, Kishimoto has gone to considerable lengths to focus on the Uchiha bloodline and capabilities, as well as their miserable history -- to the irritation of many fans who get sick of all the Uchiha stuff. But it's been important to help demonstrate how messed up they are, how none of them -- including Itachi and Sasuke -- have been able to escape the legacy of manipulation, destruction, and madness despite their intelligence, power, and considerable gifts. And all those generations of pain, misery, failure, hate, rivalry, revenge, etc., have been heaped on Sasuke now.

The entire Uchiha clan has seemed to historically hover at the edge of mental illness. The reasons can be argued in classic "chicken and the egg" fashion, but we've been shown more examples of combined paranoid and narcissistic personality disorder in this bloodline than any other in the series. (Madara's display of narcissistic megalomania in 589 is a good example.)

So Sasuke comes from a long line of borderline personalities. Then he suffered PTSD as a child, seeing his parents and clan murdered, and by his beloved brother, no less. By the time we meet him in Part I he has already progressed from post-traumatic stress disorder to antisocial personality disorder. We see him acting in a callous manner toward others, avoiding normal social constructs, resisting relationships, being frustrated, impatient, and ultimately disobedient, abandoning everything and everyone for himself and his goals.

During the timeskip and beyond, he progresses from antisocial disorder to narcissistic personality disorder and the beginnings of delusional psychosis. The psychotic break finally comes when he kills Danzo. In his delusion Sasuke feels powerful, and that his power to kill in self-righteous anger will free and empower him even further. This is evidenced by his own description and attitude:



So from that perspective, it seems that Kishimoto has purposely shown each step of Sasuke's pathological degeneration. Sasuke is hardly the only character to suffer Hard Times^TM in this story, but his reaction and survival technique is different, and I think that's an important distinction. It's similar to Gaara's original survival mode/technique, but Gaara had an excuse for his murderous insanity thanks to having an actual demon inside him.

Naruto was able to sway Zabuza, Nagato, etc. -- even Gaara -- because those opponents were still capable of connecting to reality. Sasuke no longer is. He doesn't want to connect to reality, and he said as much in 589. That’s why his arguments and intentions don’t make any sense. At this point, based on what we know, I think it has to be that way because Sasuke appears to represent Naruto's final challenge, and it's going to be the most difficult.

If Sasuke were sane and rational on any level, Naruto's organic and irresistible persuasiveness would be able to reach him pretty easily -- as he did the others with whom he had even less of a bond. I think it's going to take a bloody fight to the death -- physical death as well as the death of Sasuke's philosophy (the Uchiha philosophy) to reconnect Sasuke with reality, and then, when Sasuke is finally broken, Naruto will be able to reach the festering core of feelings Sasuke has been pathologically unable to face.

Gaara.

I have major for Gaara too. He's my favorite character to write because he's just so... complicated. And cool. *sigh*

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

This is a trick question, since only Kishimoto knows for sure, but I will say yes, I think it's been his intention.

The way I see it, manga, as a storytelling medium, can't directly address every aspect of plot and individual characterization. There aren't going to be any dialogue/explanation bubbles (or diagrams, lol) that say, "Notice how Sasuke is starting to go crazy -- right here in this panel." A lot of the narrative information is provided in broad terms over a very long period of time, and has to be parsed by the reader -- which is what leads to so many interpretations. (And so many disappointments when the mangaka doesn't give enough time or attention to something readers are keen on.) This happens some in literature, too, but maybe not quite as easily.

Point being, in my opinion Kishimoto has been suggesting Sasuke's slide from instability into madness from the beginning. I mean, Kishimoto has gone to considerable lengths to focus on the Uchiha bloodline and capabilities, as well as their miserable history -- to the irritation of many fans who get sick of all the Uchiha stuff. But it's been important to help demonstrate how messed up they are, how none of them -- including Itachi and Sasuke -- have been able to escape the legacy of manipulation, destruction, and madness despite their intelligence, power, and considerable gifts. And all those generations of pain, misery, failure, hate, rivalry, revenge, etc., have been heaped on Sasuke now.

The entire Uchiha clan has seemed to historically hover at the edge of mental illness. The reasons can be argued in classic "chicken and the egg" fashion, but we've been shown more examples of combined paranoid and narcissistic personality disorder in this bloodline than any other in the series. (Madara's display of narcissistic megalomania in 589 is a good example.)

So Sasuke comes from a long line of borderline personalities. Then he suffered PTSD as a child, seeing his parents and clan murdered, and by his beloved brother, no less. By the time we meet him in Part I he has already progressed from post-traumatic stress disorder to antisocial personality disorder. We see him acting in a callous manner toward others, avoiding normal social constructs, resisting relationships, being frustrated, impatient, and ultimately disobedient, abandoning everything and everyone for himself and his goals.

During the timeskip and beyond, he progresses from antisocial disorder to narcissistic personality disorder and the beginnings of delusional psychosis. The psychotic break finally comes when he kills Danzo. In his delusion Sasuke feels powerful, and that his power to kill in self-righteous anger will free and empower him even further. This is evidenced by his own description and attitude:



So from that perspective, it seems that Kishimoto has purposely shown each step of Sasuke's pathological degeneration. Sasuke is hardly the only character to suffer Hard Times^TM in this story, but his reaction and survival technique is different, and I think that's an important distinction. It's similar to Gaara's original survival mode/technique, but Gaara had an excuse for his murderous insanity thanks to having an actual demon inside him.

Naruto was able to sway Zabuza, Nagato, etc. -- even Gaara -- because those opponents were still capable of connecting to reality. Sasuke no longer is. He doesn't want to connect to reality, and he said as much in 589. That’s why his arguments and intentions don’t make any sense. At this point, based on what we know, I think it has to be that way because Sasuke appears to represent Naruto's final challenge, and it's going to be the most difficult.

If Sasuke were sane and rational on any level, Naruto's organic and irresistible persuasiveness would be able to reach him pretty easily -- as he did the others with whom he had even less of a bond. I think it's going to take a bloody fight to the death -- physical death as well as the death of Sasuke's philosophy (the Uchiha philosophy) to reconnect Sasuke with reality, and then, when Sasuke is finally broken, Naruto will be able to reach the festering core of feelings Sasuke has been pathologically unable to face.


I have major for Gaara too. He's my favorite character to write because he's just so... complicated. And cool. *sigh*

Kishimoto is forcing hatred on Sasuke to make the final battle, the way that sasuke speak he have no reason to destroy konoha probably naruto will save him.
Quite Predictable

[redragon88]

I think we should just agree that the deceptions of the shinobi world have caused Sasuke to go literally insane. He might be genuinely suffering from extreme psychosis. That conditions makes him want to see people suffer and so uses the mistreatment of the Uchiha as an excuse to his actions. He won't be able to tell if that excuse makes sense or not because he's too deep in insanity to make sense of rights or wrongs.

Edited by redragon88, 08 June 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

I am guessing the trauma Sasuke suffered as a child has caused his mind to think in ways that for most would seem crazy. Even after knowing the truth, he still thinks Konoha is to blame even when the Uchiha could be just as accountable....erm for the most part.

I noticed something. We all know the next generation is supposed to surpass the previous generation, but ever notice that the now generation is paying for all the previous generation's mistakes? Even Itachi became a victim if you think about it and really I can't blame him fully for what he was forced to do. If Uchiha clan and konoha put aside their differences then maybe things wouldn't have been so messed up for Sasuke and Naruto. The elders made the mistakes and now their children are paying for it.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 June 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[Codus N]

Not quite 100% sure but I beleive it was her chakra that was sealed not the soul...I don't think it would be possible to resurrect her anymore as she when she left within Naruto she left content, happy and with a clear concience of seeing her son not hate her and has turned out to be someone she would be proud of so like with Sasori and Sai's brother she would have passed on with the chains of regret no longer binding her to this world, and even if her soul wasn't sealed in Naruto I think the imprint left inside Naruto would have passed on the feeling to her soul when is dispersed, like a Shadow Clone does when is disperses.....Hmm...I wonder if that was why this Jutsu was originally created to allow Ninja's stuck in Lingo to accept their fate and pass on?

Bolded: That makes sense. Tobirama could've very well been inspired by Izanami's true purpose. Thus, he decided to create a similar jutsu of the sort. I wouldn't be surprised if he often used this jutsu to help his fallen soldiers say a few last words to their families or friends and helping them move on without regrets.

EDIT: BTW, did anyone feel that the end of the series is near from reading the last page??

The caption says: "The light that signals the beginning of the end" I think that's a sure sign the series is ending soon. In fact, it'll probably end by the end of the year.

Edited by Codus N, 08 June 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

The begining of the end finnaly the war arc is reaching it's end.
the prob is it does not looked like a war no ones that is important died

[tricksie]

Thank you for acknowledging this. I've mentioned this since the start of the fight. Madara is arrogant enough to act like he was always this tough, but the reader knows that he was upgraded as a zombie.

I think on some level, Sasuke is finally getting back at Itachi for all the mind games.

Even now, how has Itachi acted?
When Sasuke says that he blames the Leaf Village for what happened to Itachi, he is told that he is wrong. (Despite the fact that Itachi tricked Sasuke into killing him, so that Sasuke would look better in the eyes of the Village elders.)
When Sasuke talks about the love he had for his brother, Itachi mentions how much he respects Naruto, who will carry on Itachi's will.
When Sasuke is looking for validation on becoming a strong ninja, Itachi says he blames himself for how much of a disappointment Sasuke has become.

So whether active or subconsciously, Sasuke is sticking it to Itachi.
All the warm talk about their brotherly relationship didn't make Sasuke want to follow Itachi's lead, but instead reminded him of what he lost due to Danzo's scheming. And strengthened his resolve that Itachi is misguided, that wiping out the Leaf Village is the right thing to do.

Great points. It's hard for me to accept that Sasuke is just blanket insane. Because he had some stable moments in the last few chapters. But looking at it this way, Itachi really does become the trigger for Sasuke all over again. Not from Itachi's outright fanning the flames of his hatred in Part 1, but from Itachi not ever acknowledging Sasuke.

I bet in the next chapter Itachi goes to poke him in the head again, trying to fix him or laying on a last jutsu, and Sasuke bats his hand away.

EDIT: BTW, did anyone feel that the end of the series is near from reading the last page??

The caption says: "The light that signals the beginning of the end" I think that's a sure sign the series is ending soon. In fact, it'll probably end by the end of the year.

Really? The end of this year? I hope not. It feels like there is so much left to cover in terms of the main characters. You may be right, but I'll be so disappointed if the big climax is just a blur of fighting, followed by a quick epilogue.

I'm really hoping that in the end game he gives the same amount of emphasis to Saskura, Kakashi and Tsunade as he has to Kabuto. I will feel cheated if he doesn't. An epilogue after Sasuke and Naruto's big battle won't be enough to resolve their storylines for me.

Edited by tricksie, 08 June 2012 - 03:25 PM.