52 replies to this topic

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yeah, like when I say that I like The Last Jedi, from the reactions people give (on big or small sites), you would think it was some unspoken law that I'm NOT allowed to or else I must have a part of my body removed..

Or the endless franchise wars...

 

Or how with the Marvel Cinematic Universe and the Worlds of DC/DC Extended Universe movies and how you gotta be liek all the critics and hate DC movies and love Marvel regardless of feelings about both, or that liking both is blasphemy.

[ultranx]

Yeah, like when I say that I like The Last Jedi, from the reactions people give (on big or small sites), you would think it was some unspoken law that I'm NOT allowed to or else I must have a part of my body removed..

Or the endless franchise wars...

well that's because people who were big on the extended star wars universe from the books and stuff and know how luke and everyone are supposed to act, the last jedi went against everything the characters stood for and not only killed them off but destroyed their characters in the process, which pissed the fandom off, heck even mark hamill hates the last jedi. most of the old school fandom is rebelling against disney star wars. its why solo bombed, heck it even bombed on the bluray and dvd release. but if you like it that's fine. but yeah, that's why the fandom is acting like that.

Edited by ultranx, 17 November 2018 - 08:41 PM.

[ultranx]

 

Or how with the Marvel Cinematic Universe and the Worlds of DC/DC Extended Universe movies and how you gotta be liek all the critics and hate DC movies and love Marvel regardless of feelings about both, or that liking both is blasphemy.

well its not just that, people, myself included, don't like the dc movies because of the writing. I hated man of steel and batman vs superman because of the writing and what they did to the superman lore. seriously where's the crystals? the fortress? that's still used in every form of superman media EXCEPT these movies, its ridiculous. plus how superman caused all those people to die when he killed zod, how like 9/11 the movie was with the destruction. there were alot of things wrong with those movies. I still prefer the old school superman movies any day over these new ones, even if they were weird. marvel on the other hand you have the situation with the captain marvel movie. both dc and marvel have their sets of problems.

[James S Cassidy]

well its not just that, people, myself included, don't like the dc movies because of the writing. I hated man of steel and batman vs superman because of the writing and what they did to the superman lore. seriously where's the crystals? the fortress? that's still used in every form of superman media EXCEPT these movies, its ridiculous.

You mean like how Marvel rewrote several major character origins, powers, and even relationships?
Ultron being a product of Banner and Stark with an infinity stone and not Pym and his genius mind.
Spider-Man unable to make his own gear and having friends with people who don't really exist...Michelle Jones?
Hulk and Black Widow relationship? At least Cap and Black Widow had a love life together. They even had a son named James Rogers.
2 words: The Mandarin?
The Ancient One being a bald white woman?
Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch being Hydra experiments?
Civil War being more of a personal vendetta of Stark being a little baby. Especially since he caused most of problems the government is complaining about.Spi
Thanos entire character change: Movie: "I did it to save and bring peace to the universe." Comic: "I did it for the nookie."
Spider-Man joining Iron Man in the movies while he joined Captain America in the comics.

and on and on and on.

So, it is okay for Marvel to change or even completely rewrite several aspects, but not okay for DC to do the same? Superman doesn't get his crystal palace is a deal breaker for you, but Tony Stark killing people with his hubris is not? Or perhaps this is one of those "It is okay if Marvel does it, but DC has to stick to absolute lore."

The arguments are tiring.
"We want Superman to change because we are tired of hearing the old story over and over again."
*Changes aspects of Superman including who he is dating.*
"How dare they change Superman, he needs to stay pure to his original story."

There was nothing wrong with Man of Steel. To me, people were too engrossed in Marvel's "All comedy, no real edge."
It's funny how people wanted Superman to be more like Goku because "being a pure boy scout is boring," but as soon they give Superman a kind of realism where the villains are actually...you know....VILLAINS....they complain that it is no longer Superman.

Which is it? Man of Steel plays out very similar to how Superman Birthright comic occurs or even All-Star Superman and yet no one has a problem with that. Either people don't read enough Superman comics or their entire concept of Superman is based solely on the Animated Series. Also funny how you seem to have no problem with Batman killing people...even though in the comics he maintains that killing is wrong and feels that if he ever killed someone...there would be no going back for him.

 

plus how superman caused all those people to die when he killed zod, how like 9/11 the movie was with the destruction. there were alot of things wrong with those movies. I still prefer the old school superman movies any day over these new ones, even if they were weird. marvel on the other hand you have the situation with the captain marvel movie. both dc and marvel have their sets of problems.

 

Kind of reminds me of all the deaths the Avengers caused in the Chitauri war, the Age of Ultron, Civil War, Infinity War, and so on and so forth. Most of these were caused by the Avengers themselves.

I guess only Superman is held accountable for his mistakes while everyone else gets a free pass...even if one of them caused the whole problem in the first place coughstarkcough.

Funny, there is a pattern here.

Tony Stark builds Ultron that causes the death of thousands of people and constantly pisses off the US government:
"Captain America is dangerous. He needs to be put on a leash."

Batman, Lex Luthor, Joker, other villains, and other aliens cause problems in the world, killing people, and more.
"Superman has to be stopped. If there is even 1% chance he could go bad, we have to take that as absolute certainty."

But, hey, I'd like to see the Avengers stop global destruction on their first day with no training.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 18 November 2018 - 12:29 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

well that's because people who were big on the extended star wars universe from the books and stuff and know how luke and everyone are supposed to act, the last jedi went against everything the characters stood for and not only killed them off but destroyed their characters in the process, which pissed the fandom off, heck even mark hamill hates the last jedi. most of the old school fandom is rebelling against disney star wars. its why solo bombed, heck it even bombed on the bluray and dvd release. but if you like it that's fine. but yeah, that's why the fandom is acting like that.

"Supposed to act"? How is that kind of thinking any different than something like the Call of Duty community claiming X game(s) "sucks" because it's not what CoD "is supposed to be" (and yet, even if CoD developers do what the community demands "should be done", they STILL hate it)? Where and when was there ever any sort of established "rules" that dictate what Star Wars "is", that its characters "are", or that Luke MUST always be a certain way? That largely why the EU stuff was turned into "Legends" - so things being made would not have to be shackled to anything outside of more recent things (prequels, The Clone Wars, Rebels, etc.) nor be obligated to be 100% "faithful" to anything.

And the "old school fandom", which I am part of by the way, is exactly what is being addressed in The Last Jedi through Luke and the Jedi of the Old Republic and beyond. That it needs to be able to, while not forgetting the past outright, not be shackled by it, to be able to accept that sometimes things change, for better or for worse, and we need to be able to change too. That's what happened with Luke, He tried to rebuild the Jedi Order in the same image as the old Jedi ways and it only ended up blowing up in his face and essentially repeating history

The big reasons why Solo bombed was because it was a complete rush job with mostly unfitting people playing the characters and an obvious cash grab that nobody was asking for to begin with (people may have shown some interest, but no one was clamoring for it). If there was any "rebelling" going on, it wouldn't have been noticeable either way because of such reasons keeping the general audience away since the very first trailers for it were released.

I mean, no offense, but like a lot of other people I've seen, it's just sounding more like people are just mad that what they knew about Star Wars is no longer "what is". They used to be able to school others with their knowledge of the Legends universe, but now they themselves are the ones who don't know what is going to happen while other things are changing and they simply don't like that. They don't want to have to "unlearn what they have learned". Am I sad that a bunch of what I used to know isn't canon anymore (at least from how they originally were in some cases)? Sure I am; Kyle Katarn's journey since Dark Forces, the Thrawn Trilogy, Palpatine's revival, the Yuuzhan Vong War, and so on are some of my favorite stories from Legends, but being made non-canon isn't going to make me hate virtually everything Star Wars-related from now on just because it's being done by Disney. it will be a case-by-case basis with me as it always has been.

I'm not saying everyone must love TLJ and throw away their like for the OT and the Legends universe, but to try to say that Disney is the sole thing that "ruined Star Wars" (and before that, George Lucas himself) is really just throwing one's irrational anger around when the fandom should be looking at itself and see that maybe they themselves played a role in how negative things have become for themselves.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Okay guys were getting off track there are threads for the topics with both Star Wars and the DCEU.

[James S Cassidy]

"Supposed to act"? How is that kind of thinking any different than something like the Call of Duty community claiming X game(s) "sucks" because it's not what CoD "is supposed to be" (and yet, even if CoD developers do what the community demands "should be done", they STILL hate it)? Where and when was there ever any sort of established "rules" that dictate what Star Wars "is", that its characters "are", or that Luke MUST always be a certain way? That largely why the EU stuff was turned into "Legends" - so things being made would not have to be shackled to anything outside of more recent things (prequels, The Clone Wars, Rebels, etc.) nor be obligated to be 100% "faithful" to anything.

I mean, no offense, but like a lot of other people I've seen, it's just sounding more like people are just mad that what they knew about Star Wars is no longer "what is". They used to be able to school others with their knowledge of the Legends universe, but now they themselves are the ones who don't know what is going to happen while other things are changing and they simply don't like that.

The same reason why people hate the Last Jedi is the same reason why most of us here hate Naruto and Boruto. The characters changed too much, the plot got weird and convoluted, development chucking and wasted potential all around, and other weird things that...don't make sense especially in the Star Wars lore.

You see, in Legends you had Luke adopt different ways from the Jedi of old and even at times show how you can overcome most with simple logic. Like just because you fall in love does not mean you automatically go to the dark side. Luke was teaching how to channel emotions...not just get rid of them.

Luke is probably the biggest weird change. Why would Luke go back to the "old" Jedi ways when he was a different kind of Jedi since the original movies? Luke and Naruto share so much in common in that they challenged the old ways, but then became just as bad as the old ways despite knowing that the olds ways didn't work.

Luke believed Darth Vader had good in him despite so many saying he didn't, yet he gives up so easily on Kylo Ren because he sense a hint of dark? Also, Luke kind of caused it in the first place. ( In Legends, alot of times he showed that everyone had dark and light, but being truly good means to accept both and overcome)
Naruto believed Sasuke was good despite what everyone says and was unwilling to let him go, yet was easily willing to give up on everything because Hinata didn't love him? And he now he going back and doing the same mistakes.

Now, they are even retconning the next Star Wars movies with more retcons. So Star Wars and Naruto has something in common. They both exchanged hands on who makes it, they retcon some massive story elements, and make huge character changes in personality.

What makes it worse is how the director and that one women purposely pushed a SJW agenda, and admitted it, in the story of Star Wars. My biggest problem with the new Star Wars movies is they stopped being a Space Opera and started being more political soapbox to express SJW agendas which is a no-no. It really has nothing to do with the Legends so to speak, but it is a shame that they had so much lore they could have took inspiration from and they abandoned all of it for some crappy story on "The force is female."

Edited by James S Cassidy, 18 November 2018 - 09:40 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

@James I agree man it's why I didn't like the Last Jedi many others on Youtube pointed out why the Last Jedi is such terrible film, not there are good moments, but sadly there are more bad moments than good.

 

I mean Naruto the last had some good animation, but most of that was wasted on Hinata, again we know that is because of SP. And they are in love with their Hyuuga goddess.

 

Man of Steal now don't bite my head off there are problems with the film both Angry Joe and Doug Walker talked about it in their review, but there are good things in the movie I for one liked Zod.

 

I do have the film on DVD too. not Blue-ray

Edited by TheFirstEvil100, 18 November 2018 - 09:43 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

@James I agree man it's why I didn't like the Last Jedi many others on Youtube pointed out why the Last Jedi is such terrible film, not there are good moments, but sadly there are more bad moments than good.

 

I mean Naruto the last had some good animation, but most of that was wasted on Hinata, again we know that is because of SP. And they are in love with their Hyuuga goddess.

 

Man of Steal now don't bite my head off there are problems with the film both Angry Joe and Doug Walker talked about it in their review, but there are good things in the movie I for one liked Zod.

 

I do have the film on DVD too. not Blue-ray

And that is fine. No movie is perfect, but what gets me is that whole "It is nothing like the comics" argument for the biggest issue of it. Meanwhile, when Marvel changes stuff dramatically people praise it for NOT following the comics.

When I criticize Marvel movies for issues, they always say "Well, they wanted to something different," but they can't apply the same logic to the DC movies?

If you don't like the DC movies because you prefer the kiddy version of Marvel movies or it is not your preference that is fine, but to say that you don't like the DC movies because they don't follow the source material to me is not a good enough reason to say that it is a bad movie. To me, that mostly means they have never read any real DC comics and only watched the cartoon series like the 90s Justice League and or Batman and Superman animated series.

To loop this back into Naruto...pro-enders always claim to read the manga and say that "it is obvious if you read the manga," but when you recite the manga back to them they say they don't remember that scene or they say "Well, in the anime..." I am very familiar with Superman and the events of Man of Steel are not too different from some comics I know exist.

I am not expecting everyone to like Man of Steel, but I need a better argument than "It doesn't follow the source material" otherwise I'd think they were more Marvel Biased.

[ultranx]

The same reason why people hate the Last Jedi is the same reason why most of us here hate Naruto and Boruto. The characters changed too much, the plot got weird and convoluted, development chucking and wasted potential all around, and other weird things that...don't make sense especially in the Star Wars lore.

You see, in Legends you had Luke adopt different ways from the Jedi of old and even at times show how you can overcome most with simple logic. Like just because you fall in love does not mean you automatically go to the dark side. Luke was teaching how to channel emotions...not just get rid of them.

Luke is probably the biggest weird change. Why would Luke go back to the "old" Jedi ways when he was a different kind of Jedi since the original movies? Luke and Naruto share so much in common in that they challenged the old ways, but then became just as bad as the old ways despite knowing that the olds ways didn't work.

Luke believed Darth Vader had good in him despite so many saying he didn't, yet he gives up so easily on Kylo Ren because he sense a hint of dark? Also, Luke kind of caused it in the first place. ( In Legends, alot of times he showed that everyone had dark and light, but being truly good means to accept both and overcome)
Naruto believed Sasuke was good despite what everyone says and was unwilling to let him go, yet was easily willing to give up on everything because Hinata didn't love him? And he now he going back and doing the same mistakes.

Now, they are even retconning the next Star Wars movies with more retcons. So Star Wars and Naruto has something in common. They both exchanged hands on who makes it, they retcon some massive story elements, and make huge character changes in personality.

What makes it worse is how the director and that one women purposely pushed a SJW agenda, and admitted it, in the story of Star Wars. My biggest problem with the new Star Wars movies is they stopped being a Space Opera and started being more political soapbox to express SJW agendas which is a no-no. It really has nothing to do with the Legends so to speak, but it is a shame that they had so much lore they could have took inspiration from and they abandoned all of it for some crappy story on "The force is female."

This. this is what I was trying to say, you explained it much better than I did.  and yeah I understand why you like man of steel, I just didn't like it from how they portrayed superman in that movie and how much they changed the lore, its just not my kind of movie. I just feel like the other superman media did it better character and lore wise is all.

Edited by ultranx, 19 November 2018 - 04:08 AM.

[RulesofNature]

The whole thing I get is that people pick and choose what parts of the story they want to highlight. I know this one Gundam SEED fan who will say the side stories/supplementary material concerning Kira and Lacus's actions is off the table because it's not present in the show, but will bang on about how the original Gundam was black and white while citing later supplementary materials about stuff not in the show. I had people tell me not to think about the implications of story elements, and just take things at face value. Or that bad sequels don't have an impact on the stories they're continuing. You get the idea.

 

People don't want the story as it is, they want the story to be what they want it to be. Part of me wants to say this is a big change since my youth, but I really doubt that's the case. There have always been people claiming shows went bad when this thing they didn't like happened. Nadesico, Gurren Lagann, any harem anime with a final pairing; Fanon has been a part of internet anime discussions since the dawn of internet anime discussions. The Naruto fanbase may just be one of the most extreme examples of this though.

 

Also, I'm okay with Man of Steel. I like Superman smiling more, but some of his best stories are him dealing with responsibility and morality.

[James S Cassidy]

The whole thing I get is that people pick and choose what parts of the story they want to highlight. I know this one Gundam SEED fan who will say the side stories/supplementary material concerning Kira and Lacus's actions is off the table because it's not present in the show, but will bang on about how the original Gundam was black and white while citing later supplementary materials about stuff not in the show. I had people tell me not to think about the implications of story elements, and just take things at face value. Or that bad sequels don't have an impact on the stories they're continuing. You get the idea.

 

People don't want the story as it is, they want the story to be what they want it to be. Part of me wants to say this is a big change since my youth, but I really doubt that's the case. There have always been people claiming shows went bad when this thing they didn't like happened. Nadesico, Gurren Lagann, any harem anime with a final pairing; Fanon has been a part of internet anime discussions since the dawn of internet anime discussions. The Naruto fanbase may just be one of the most extreme examples of this though.

 

Also, I'm okay with Man of Steel. I like Superman smiling more, but some of his best stories are him dealing with responsibility and morality.

Especially when you have a very popular or iconic character with a vast array of fans who all like different things. Superman has fans globally and variably different. Like me for example who love everything Superman. Well, not "love" everything. There are some Superman stuff I do not like very much or hate on the grounds that they really miss the idea of Superman all together like anything with Frank Miller, but I also love both the comics and cartoons. Especially if the movies can match to the comics like Superman vs The Elite when Superman got angry and dark a bit and I think this is what people miss at times. You have to have dark to describe the light. Superman in the Man of Steel and DCU is going through a more...realistic approach to it. I mean, imagine if a Superman like person did exist in the world today. Some people would praise him as a god, and some would vile him as humanities destruction or threat. The government would certainly go after him and always assume he was an enemy even if he was doing good and the media would most definitely slander him any chance they got. Take a look at real life examples.

Now, to me, when people dislike Man of Steel, it seems they just hate how down to earth it is and people don't want that. They want a hero that everyone loves and a different world set than what the real world gives them. We try to go into movies and such to escape real life, not emulate it and I can see why people would be put off by this. They want something happier to make their day better, not worse. I get that. This is why they like Marvel better. Marvel is just a little bit more whimsical. However, this causes a problem when things get serious at times because then you start to feel their is no real edge to it. Like I said, the Civil War didn't feel as impactful as it should have been because it felt like the stakes weren't high enough. In the movie, the cause for it was because the government was made that the heroes took their job, basically, and Tony was mad cause his parents were killed by Winter Soldier and Cap wanted to save his friend. (A similar plot to Naruto I might add. huh.) In the comics, the whole thing started cause a villain named Nova blew himself up like an atomic bomb and killed 615 people with 75 being just little kids. It got dark to the point that speedball wanted a costume that pierced his body like an iron maiden to cause his powers to manifest because his original powers went into flux.

In the end, I think Deadpool did it right with the right amount of comedy and dark. Sometimes even with Dark Humor.

This is where the responsibility of the author really needs to play a role. If you are an author like Kishimoto who doesn't care, who changes and retcons details constantly, then your story becomes an even bigger mess than before and we know this. For others, because they are only there for the pairings, they have a one track mind. So to them, nothing else matters. Literally nothing else matters. Naruto is the biggest scumbag on the planet, the worst human being now, and his leadership skills lead to the destruction of the village on a massive scale....and these fans don't care because "Naruto loves Hinata."

That's the sad part.

The author needs to have a clear indication on where they want the story to go. To write what THEY want to write and not "what the fans want." They need to have a clear explanation to the story as much as they can and NEVER EVER treat your reader like they are stupid. You can surprise them or trick them, but DON'T treat them like they are stupid. That is what Kishimoto did wrong. he treated his fans like they were stupid, but the sad part was...a good part of us were. The NH and SS fans were so stupid that they were single-minded to only care about pairings. How stupid are they? They are willing to accept anything that is in their favor.

Kishimoto: "NS was a red herring."
Proenders: "See? NS was a red herring."
Kishimoto: "NH and SS is a pity f--- and a drug addiction respectfully."
Proenders: "He didn't mean that."

Kishimoto could say anything and these proenders would eat it up as long as NH and SS stayed together.

Kishimoto: "Naruto is a bad father. He rapes his kids, beats them, and loves literally kicking their teeth in. He also abuses Hinata constantly and slaps her around like his own personal punching bag because she didn't keep the ramen warm."
Proenders: "But, they still love each other right? They are still married and happy."
Kishimoto: "Well, I don't know about happy and still lov-"
Proenders: "Then that is a yes. I am good with that."

That's the sad reality I face with Naruto right now.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 November 2018 - 04:14 PM.

[ultranx]

Especially when you have a very popular or iconic character with a vast array of fans who all like different things. Superman has fans globally and variably different. Like me for example who love everything Superman. Well, not "love" everything. There are some Superman stuff I do not like very much or hate on the grounds that they really miss the idea of Superman all together like anything with Frank Miller, but I also love both the comics and cartoons. Especially if the movies can match to the comics like Superman vs The Elite when Superman got angry and dark a bit and I think this is what people miss at times. You have to have dark to describe the light. Superman in the Man of Steel and DCU is going through a more...realistic approach to it. I mean, imagine if a Superman like person did exist in the world today. Some people would praise him as a god, and some would vile him as humanities destruction or threat. The government would certainly go after him and always assume he was an enemy even if he was doing good and the media would most definitely slander him any chance they got. Take a look at real life examples.

Now, to me, when people dislike Man of Steel, it seems they just hate how down to earth it is and people don't want that. They want a hero that everyone loves and a different world set than what the real world gives them. We try to go into movies and such to escape real life, not emulate it and I can see why people would be put off by this. They want something happier to make their day better, not worse. I get that. This is why they like Marvel better. Marvel is just a little bit more whimsical. However, this causes a problem when things get serious at times because then you start to feel their is no real edge to it. Like I said, the Civil War didn't feel as impactful as it should have been because it felt like the stakes weren't high enough. In the movie, the cause for it was because the government was made that the heroes took their job, basically, and Tony was mad cause his parents were killed by Winter Soldier and Cap wanted to save his friend. (A similar plot to Naruto I might add. huh.) In the comics, the whole thing started cause a villain named Nova blew himself up like an atomic bomb and killed 615 people with 75 being just little kids. It got dark to the point that speedball wanted a costume that pierced his body like an iron maiden to cause his powers to manifest because his original powers went into flux.

In the end, I think Deadpool did it right with the right amount of comedy and dark. Sometimes even with Dark Humor.

This is where the responsibility of the author really needs to play a role. If you are an author like Kishimoto who doesn't care, who changes and retcons details constantly, then your story becomes an even bigger mess than before and we know this. For others, because they are only there for the pairings, they have a one track mind. So to them, nothing else matters. Literally nothing else matters. Naruto is the biggest scumbag on the planet, the worst human being now, and his leadership skills lead to the destruction of the village on a massive scale....and these fans don't care because "Naruto loves Hinata."

That's the sad part.

The author needs to have a clear indication on where they want the story to go. To write what THEY want to write and not "what the fans want." They need to have a clear explanation to the story as much as they can and NEVER EVER treat your reader like they are stupid. You can surprise them or trick them, but DON'T treat them like they are stupid. That is what Kishimoto did wrong. he treated his fans like they were stupid, but the sad part was...a good part of us were. The NH and SS fans were so stupid that they were single-minded to only care about pairings. How stupid are they? They are willing to accept anything that is in their favor.

Kishimoto: "NS was a red herring."
Proenders: "See? NS was a red herring."
Kishimoto: "NH and SS is a pity f--- and a drug addiction respectfully."
Proenders: "He didn't mean that."

Kishimoto could say anything and these proenders would eat it up as long as NH and SS stayed together.

Kishimoto: "Naruto is a bad father. He rapes his kids, beats them, and loves literally kicking their teeth in. He also abuses Hinata constantly and slaps her around like his own personal punching bag because she didn't keep the ramen warm."
Proenders: "But, they still love each other right? They are still married and happy."
Kishimoto: "Well, I don't know about happy and still lov-"
Proenders: "Then that is a yes. I am good with that."

That's the sad reality I face with Naruto right now.

agreed 100%. honestly the one I think did it better than man of steel in particular is superman vs the elite. he made him think he was gonna kill him but all along superman tricked him and took away his powers instead. he still kept his morality and didn't kill anyone, even then. I'm sure you probably know of some better portrayals of superman though since you know more about superman than I do  since I don't read much of the comics. and yeah naruto/boruto has become such a gigantic mess. I hope that doesn't happen to any of our other favorite franchises.

 

oh also, if we go by the newest superman live action series krypton, zod is superman's dad's half brother. so if superman knew this I think he'd be even less likely to kill zod being he's family even if he's an enemy.

Edited by ultranx, 29 November 2018 - 09:39 PM.