68 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
The thing is...why was she surprised by that so much to get punched in the first place? Even if it came out of no where, with the way she was introduced, it just feels out of place for her to be THAT distracted by that jutsu for me (plus they managed to land a hit on her so quickly into the battle).  Like I said...I'm sure there have been strong characters that didn't even flinch when it was used on them for the first time. So, because of that, it's hard for me to take her seriously now, you know? 

Yeah, I get it, but it just one of those out of nowhere and rather a short moment of comedy. I mean it didn't effect me when Gaara took thousand years of pain, I remember the reaction on that from third party. Again, it's one of those times that will throw you off. It's like how Frieza is so invincible but his tail got bitten by Goku and it came off goofy with him trying to ease the pain. It doesn't hurt so much. Plus with the status of the powerful one, you can excuse it from it because you're still the top.

[Nate River]

The thing is...why was she surprised by that so much to get punched in the first place? Even if it came out of no where, with the way she was introduced, it just feels out of place for her to be THAT distracted by that jutsu for me (plus they managed to land a hit on her so quickly into the battle).  Like I said...I'm sure there have been strong characters that didn't even flinch when it was used on them for the first time. So, because of that, it's hard for me to take her seriously now, you know?

The whole thing is out of place (which is why I keep calling it stupid), but is it hard to believe that had this been used on a male opponent the result would have been different?

It worked on the Third, Iruka, Konohamaru's teacher, etc. They weren't in active combat, but the implication is that, it'd have worked just as well had they been.

Naruto's deception often requires the villain to either be stupid or take their years of experience (Kakuzu) and hurl it down the memory hole.

[Qia]

The whole thing is out of place (which is why I keep calling it stupid), but is it hard to believe that had this been used on a male opponent the result would have been different?

It worked on the Third, Iruka, Konohamaru's teacher, etc. They weren't in active combat, but the implication is that, it'd have worked just as well had they been.

Naruto's deception often requires the villain to either be stupid or take their years of experience (Kakuzu) and hurl it down the memory hole.

I honestly get what you're saying...I do. But it's because of this small moment of "humor" that I can no longer see Kaguya as the god she's supposed to be. I mean, we've had villains in the past where it was almost impossible to land a hit on them so quickly and easily...yet this happens. Like what????? It truly is very stupid  . I'm supposed to get that feeling that, even though it's pretty obvious that the hero will defeat the villain in the end, it's going to be incredibly difficult to do so. And...now that feeling's gone because of this one moment.

Edited by Qia, 25 June 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[ioria]

I honestly get what you're saying...I do. But it's because of this small moment of "humor" that I can no longer see Kaguya as the god she's supposed to be. I mean, we've had villains in the past where it was almost impossible to land a hit on them so quickly and easily...yet this happens. Like what????? It truly is very stupid  . I'm supposed to get that feeling that, even though it's pretty obvious that the hero will defeat the villain in the end, it's going to be incredibly difficult to do so. And...now that feeling's gone because of this one moment.

 

THIS SO MUCH!!! This chapter killed all the previous ones, for me  

[Nate River]

I honestly get what you're saying...I do. But it's because of this small moment of "humor" that I can no longer see Kaguya as the god she's supposed to be. I mean, we've had villains in the past where it was almost impossible to land a hit on them so quickly and easily...yet this happens. Like what????? It truly is very stupid  . I'm supposed to get that feeling that, even though it's pretty obvious that the hero will defeat the villain in the end, it's going to be incredibly difficult to do so. And...now that feeling's gone because of this one moment.

Oh, I agree with you. My only point is that I don't think sexism is the issue. I think it's just incredibly stupid and she's an all around awful character. Focus on the gender thing, to me, actually, obscures just how horrible a character she is right now.

[ioria]

My only point is that I don't think sexism is the issue.

 

True. I don't know how all the stuff about sexism came out in the first place..

[Nate River]

True. I don't know how all the stuff about sexism came out in the first place..

That was in the OP. It's one of the reasons she left, although I think she was talking more about the manga as a whole and not just Kaguya.

I, on the other hand, am focusing on Kaguya.

[Strangelove]

Y,,,yeah this chapter was ridiculously weak...it seems to be a chapter just to push the manga further...

[Qia]

I'm not entirely sure, but you can say Kaguya's character as a whole has to do with sexism (in terms of the typical roles that female characters have in stories). What I don't understand is why people make it seem as if Naruto is the only story guilty of doing this and that Kishi, out of all of the authors today, should know better. 

[Nate River]

I personally wouldn't know. At least for manga, I don't have the knowledge base to where he would personally lie on that. I will say it's not close to the worse I've seen of the genre. I personally think Chi Chi's treatment in DBZ, specifically, was pretty awful.

[Fenris]

Naruto's the most unpredictable ninja. Of course he'd pull something like this -- the sexy jutsu. Just like during the Kiba fight and he farted. Big deal. Build a bridge and get over it.

 

Plus, comic relief was needed.

Edited by Fenris, 25 June 2014 - 09:58 PM.

[Qia]

It was the wrong kind of comic relief. For someone who's supposed to be a God to actually fall for such a petty trick is laughable (and not in a good way). Even worse, it's not like females are generally represented very well in the manga. You can make all the comparisons you want but that doesn't mean their portrayal is as good as it should be. I mean, just look at Sakura. Everytime her name is brought up, it's usually either with Naruto's or Sasuke's. The major role she has in the manga is a love interest. So can you really blame people for being a bit disappointed and ranting and claiming sexism with the way Kaguya has been portrayed? 

Edited by Qia, 25 June 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Rozette]

Naruto's the most unpredictable ninja. Of course he'd pull something like this -- the sexy jutsu. Just like during the Kiba fight and he farted. Big deal. Build a bridge and get over it.

 

Plus, comic relief was needed.

 

I agree. It kind of feels like people can't even take a joke anymore with this manga.  The thing is, while Kaguya may be like a God, she isn't. And part of the point of using the Sexy Jutsu, aside from the comedy and unpredictability of it, was to show that the claim that Kaguya herself formed the history of shinobi and can absorb all jutsu is false. She isn't the sole progenitor of everything nor is she all knowing like a God- she didn't see or predict that jutsu coming, did she? 

 

Also, about the sexist thing.. I think it's understandable that people have strengths and weaknesses when it comes to writing certain things. And just because Kishimoto doesn't meet your standard of what a woman is, it doesn't make him sexist. In fact, he bears the right to do whatever he wants with his story, and if he chose to write a manga with an all male cast, it still wouldn't make him sexist. Perhaps that is just what he wanted to write.

[Nostradamus]

I do, in a sense, find Kaguya offensive, but not as to gender bias. I find her offensive to the very concept of "character." There is a drawing on the page that has been given the name "kaguya," but a character she is not. Random fodder ninja have displayed more character.

I expect them, on some level, to have a traits. A personality (even if it's a stone face one), motivations, desires, direction. She has none of these things. Even Juugo has something She kinda has a poorly defined motivation that was defined by someone else, but it makes no damn sense. She cried, but we don't know her relationship with her sons other than they sealed her, so who knows if that's reasonable or not.

It's hard to call her sexist on these things because there is there no actual "character" there. The sexist part about her, to which I'd agree, is that her existence was mostly just the woman who gave birth to a great man. Her portrayal has changed since she is her now, but she's so devoid of anything resembling a character that I have a hard time calling her crying sexist but I have no idea why she even cares. It's more vapid than anything because it rests on the very generic they are her kids and nothing more.

As far as the sexy-no-jutsu, well, he used the male and female versions and everyone to the letter has had the same reaction. To me, it's hard to call it sexist when everyone is always turned on by it. I see no disparate treatment, it's just dumb.

Yep. This is where Kishi failed with Kaguya. This is the fifth chapter in a row we still have no information about her.

We don't know why does she wants all the chakra for herself. We don't know why she's doing what she's doing. We don't know what exactly is her connection with the Juubi and the Tree. We don't know why did she decide to use Infinite Tsukuyomi on the world in the first place. And on and on.

 

She spoke once then she cried, and to be honest I felt nothing when she cried. Absolutely nothing.

When you create a character you need to make that character feel real. You have to give that character a personality, motivations etc.

Otherwise that "character" is nothing more that ink on paper.

 

As for the sexy jutsu, it's not sexist. It's just plain dumb.

It was funny in part 1, now it's stupid. If Kishi really wanted to keep this technique, he should've kept it as it was. A silly competition between Naruto and Konohamaru. Not use it as a distraction in a fight, against a character that has just been described as a God or any other opponent for that matter.

It's done to makes us laugh, however with me it failed. It made Naruto look like a retard.

Edited by Nostradamus, 25 June 2014 - 11:36 PM.

[Broken Figurine]

I understand Qia's point on how Kaguya's treatment feels like sexism. I really do; even if I kind of like the fact that she's... well, a simple villain, and the moment comedic moment, I like it too. It's because we've had a myriad of male villains. You can compare Gaara, Kiba, and the Third, but would Madara have fallen for that jutsu? Even if he did, he's had plenty of development prior to it. His motives, his plans, they were all greatly explored and whether you like them or not, they're there. This is the first female villain we have, a big major player---and not even a small name, Kaguya is an actual Japanese figure in myth, and from her introduction we get little of /her/ perspective. It's always about her sons, and the person who orchestrated everything was Black Zetsu. What's her motivation? I dunno, she's greedy and wants chakra to herself just because? 

 

Was it Kaguya who decided to split up Naruto and Sasuke? No, Black Zetsu suggested it, and she delivered. Whether she was male or female, we can look at Kaguya alone and be like "this doesn't work", but if you happen to be reading with a feminist perspective--a valid school of literary criticism mind you, you may comment on how as the first largely important female character, in comparison to how others were treated (Pain, Madara, Obito) she is largely lacking. 

 

I don't get the sense that Naruto as a whole is trying to be anti-female. There are a few great characters out there, but there is a distinctly strong male presence. For some people, it's not palatable. That's fine--it's valid, and I could see very well how Kaguya would be the last straw if we're finally presented with a major female player and we get... this? It's disappointing, sure. Women are treated differently in this manga that's fact. They are usually there to support male characters. Kaguya... doesn't seem to be breaking any molds here. She's /just/ an antagonist, in a manga that has gone head over heels to try and subvert and make sympathetic villains. Maybe that's what Kishi tried to do when he portrayed her crying? 

 

But notice again, who was narrating? Was it Kaguya herself that was like--"you boys... remind me of my sons..." nope--it had to be Black Zetsu. Why? Can't she talk for herself? All these villainous monologues, and she's just... posing, and being powerful, but taking advice from her son. She's big bad mom, and her sons have to rebel and be independent from her (along with all of humanity joining them). 

[Nate River]

I don't get the sense that Naruto as a whole is trying to be anti-female. There are a few great characters out there, but there is a distinctly strong male presence. For some people, it's not palatable. That's fine--it's valid, and I could see very well how Kaguya would be the last straw if we're finally presented with a major female player and we get... this? It's disappointing, sure. Women are treated differently in this manga that's fact. They are usually there to support male characters. Kaguya... doesn't seem to be breaking any molds here. She's /just/ an antagonist, in a manga that has gone head over heels to try and subvert and make sympathetic villains. Maybe that's what Kishi tried to do when he portrayed her crying?

I agree with the first part of the bolded, but not the second (the antagonist line, I mean). I expect something from her eventually, I hope anyway. Until then she feels like a drawing given a name and not really a character. There is so much nothing in her that I feel attaching the concept of antagonist to her is offensive to the idea. I wouldn't if she truly embraces this role because Kishimoto's attempt to make villains sympathetic has caused all sorts of problems. At the moment, I hate Black Zetsu as wellbecause it feels like a blame shifting technique to something that I'm not totally sure is completely sentient in the way that a virus is not considered to be "alive."

I think you are correct on the crying that I think the attempt was to make her look human (she cares for her kid like any other parent), but it didn't work because her character lacks substance. I can't feel or relate to this because there is nothing to feel for or relate to. I don't expect her to break kishi's M.O I expect, eventually, she will follow suit. Though he subverted it later on, he even attempted it with Danzou. And he was designed to be hated by everyone. It's hard to imagine she won't follow this path.

[Broken Figurine]

I agree with the first part of the bolded, but not the second (the antagonist line, I mean). I expect something from her eventually, I hope anyway. Until then she feels like a drawing given a name and not really a character. There is so much nothing in her that I feel attaching the concept of antagonist to her is offensive to the idea. I wouldn't if she truly embraces this role because Kishimoto's attempt to make villains sympathetic has caused all sorts of problems. At the moment, I hate Black Zetsu as wellbecause it feels like a blame shifting technique to something that I'm not totally sure is completely sentient in the way that a virus is not considered to be "alive."

I think you are correct on the crying that I think the attempt was to make her look human (she cares for her kid like any other parent), but it didn't work because her character lacks substance. I can't feel or relate to this because there is nothing to feel for or relate to. I don't expect her to break kishi's M.O I expect, eventually, she will follow suit. Though he subverted it later on, he even attempted it with Danzou. And he was designed to be hated by everyone. It's hard to imagine she won't follow this path.

Hahahaha, fair. I use the term antagonist broadly because she's causing conflict for our main character. She's antagonizing him~ I mean, my feelings toward Kaguya are... I think I've reached the point where I'm done with all this villanous rhetoric. I just want to see the manga progress to a point where there's resolution, and I can see my favourite characters happy (and making babies). There, I said it, I don't care much for this plot. Though, just because I'm ambivalent doesn't mean that Kaguya isn't a problematic character. She is, in that she's lacking. You take her as a character on her own, but for the OP of this thread, and from what I understood the particular nature of the issue, is that this lack of a character is female. There was a higher standard in the hopes of the character being something more, and the fact that we can't relate or feel anything for her is just upsetting.

 

They're not my sentiments, much like how I don't quite agree that she's so lacking she can't even be pressed as an antagonist by simple virtue of the role. Much like I kind of... enjoy her single minded drive (but wish she had more personality and would speak for herself), it's not shared, but I can see the validity in both your points. They share common ground, I just think Qia adds that it's made even more upsetting for her because female representation in the manga is not what she'd hope; or even what I'd hope tbh. 

 

I wish I could give you some solace, Qia. I don't know that Kaguya will become a better rounded character or not. If you're done with the manga, you can still enjoy the fandom. Sometimes, picking fun at it mercilessly by pure parody can be quite fun. You can always explore fanfics, fanart, and focus on the positives that once drew you into the story. There's no issue in nosing around for the plot and waiting for the darn thing to finish either. I wouldn't even know what manga to recommend, really. If the shonen genre is appealing, but you want a stronger female presence, um...

 

I was about to say Attack on Titan, but I'm actually not very impressed with the main female character Mikasa. She's strong, but she's basically a glorified obsessed girl who's main purpose is to 1) Worry for Eren and 2) Act like a badass. Annie on the other hand.... She's more my cup of tea (I really hope they go somewhere good with her). 

 

PS. Nate, I can't seem to see the bolded in the quotes...? Though I understood what you were agreeing and disagreeing with. 

[Qia]

I can't be done with this manga. I've tried so hard but I can't be done with it xD. I still care about Sakura and seeing her happy at the end, so I keep reading for just that. But as for my opinion of the manga as a whole....it's meh.  Tumblr actually makes it worth it too because people make really funny jokes about each chapter sometimes. And I actually like Mikasa lol. It's unfortunate that she goes by a stereotype as well but...I don't expect stuff like that to change any time soon. Annie's pretty cool too. The females, in general, are pretty okay in that manga.

[Nate River]

I can't be done with this manga. I've tried so hard but I can't be done with it xD. I still care about Sakura and seeing her happy at the end, so I keep reading for just that. But as for my opinion of the manga as a whole....it's meh.  Tumblr actually makes it worth it too because people make really funny jokes about each chapter sometimes. And I actually like Mikasa lol. It's unfortunate that she goes by a stereotype as well but...I don't expect stuff like that to change any time soon. Annie's pretty cool too. The females, in general, are pretty okay in that manga.

It's totally irrational and violates the idea of sunk costs, but I'm too invested not to see how it ends even if I think the plot attempted to jump the shark (and failed miserably and then got eaten by the shark) ages ago.

It kills me because I see foundations of interesting ideas, but he's so dead set on message purity and turning a personal conflict into a struggle for the universe that he ruining so much of the ground work.

I will give Kaguya this much. She could be Obito or Karin. I'd rather her be a developmental black hole than obscenely offensive with the double wammy of the characters in series not give a damn about their offensive behavior.

[Kurama]

Kishimoto does not have to write according to what most of you want to see, he does not want his work to be predictable else it won't be any fun at all. Besides, whats wrong with some sexy jutsus? When I saw what Naruto did to Kaguya it made me laugh real hard, and I agreed to what Kakashi said, that he is the most unpredictable ninja ever. Kishimoto made the most unpredictable thing happen, who ever had thought that Naruto would be able to trick Kaguya with his childhood jutsu (sexy no jutsu). I think it went very well, after all that war and just fights, something different was not a bad idea. Anyhow, it can't be denied if you're fed up with something, there is almost nothing that can convince you. Good day.