101 replies to this topic

[Don-kun]

First bolded: Sakura doesn't try to understand naruto. She already does. She understands his goals and his dreams and his unwavering devotion to save sasuke, and those things are what drive naruto's character. The only thing she doesn't understand about about him is why he would possibly "be in love with someone like her"- and that's more from guilt then from not understanding him.

second bolded: What judgment mistakes? If you're talking about the events of the kage summit then that's debateble. Sakura had a plan and she wa working according to it, but she couldn't bring herself to kill sasuke. Her emotions got the better of her. And if you mean how she didn't quite get him in part 1 then I would say that that's just part of her developmentbut by the end of part 1 she understood him.

third bolded: that's a matter of an opinion I know a lot of people aren't satisfied with her character but I love her development. You can tell how much she changed from the clingy fangirl to a the hokage's student. kakashi thought that she can surpass tsunade and chiyo said that sakura will surpass her. Most complains are appearing now after lee, ino, hinata, and shikimaru got there development, but sakura is next.

forth bolded: what heroine moments? if you're talking about her confession then there was absolutely nothing heroic about it. You would do anything to the person you love and hinata would do anything for naruto. And if you're talking about 615 (?) then i would say that although that was some nice development for her "character" it wasn't heroic.Because her speetch didn't affect anyone ( not the rookies and not the alliance) it was just for naruto. And I acually thought lee's moment was better written. But that's just my opinion.

This was on amazing post, I believe people are more blinded by preference instead of trying to make sense of the things you read about a specific character.
There is nothing special about Hinata, no great purpose, we don't see her relate with her friends, we don't see anything special about her is just the fact that she likes Naruto and she will do anything for him or for him to notice her.

Shy, sweet, loves Naruto and is willing to give her life for him is the most you can say about her, (one dimensional character is the best way to describe her character)

[Kakashi-Sensei]

This was on amazing post, I believe people are more blinded by preference instead of trying to make sense of the things you read about a specific character.
There is nothing special about Hinata, no great purpose, we don't see her relate with her friends, we don't see anything special about her is just the fact that she likes Naruto and she will do anything for him or for him to notice her.

Shy, sweet, loves Naruto and is willing to give her life for him is the most you can say about her, (one dimensional character is the best way to describe her character)

I agree with you , i think Hinata is a boring character she just seem's to be a copy of Naruto nindo and dosen't have her own personality. When i see Naruto with Hinata it always seem ankward to me , but with Sakura its just natural.

Ive notice that every NH fans always said that Sakura dosen't deserve Naruto because she is so useless. In part one she was i admit , but know she is in my mind the better female character of the serie , except of the Mizukage.

Plus , What did Hinata did in the entire serie ? I mean , execpt of get her ass kik by Neji in part one , and same by Pain in part 2, not much... If someone as to be useless it's her im sorry , NH Fans

Edited by Kakashi-Sensei, 25 February 2013 - 03:54 PM.

[candycane-chan]

This was on amazing post, I believe people are more blinded by preference instead of trying to make sense of the things you read about a specific character.
There is nothing special about Hinata, no great purpose, we don't see her relate with her friends, we don't see anything special about her is just the fact that she likes Naruto and she will do anything for him or for him to notice her.

Shy, sweet, loves Naruto and is willing to give her life for him is the most you can say about her, (one dimensional character is the best way to describe her character)

Thank you
yes, i agree. Fans really make out of hinata's actions such a big deal when she never did anything contributing to the plot or outside naruto's circle. What's even more ironic is that NS fans tend to make even a bigger deal out of her whenever she jumps in the picture to give naruto a pep talk and ends it with a fangirl moment. They( I'm not talking about you guys) start going on how kishi doesn't want to develop sakura anymore ad how she has no use now. oh, and my personal favorite "hinata is the heroine now"

One question. Would you prefer for for sakura to be here but end up having her character damaged or down played for other characters to get development? Naruto had to fanboy over neji and almost have a break down for them to get their development.

We never see her dreams and goals because the only thing she ever thinks about is ending up with naruto and walking by his side. This is what drives her characters and that's why she will never be a heroine.

I agree with you , i think Hinata is a boring character she just seem's to be a copy of Naruto nindo and dosen't have her own personality. When i see Naruto with Hinata it always seem ankward to me , but with Sakura its just natural.

Ive notice that every NH fans always said that Sakura dosen't deserve Naruto because she is so useless. In part one she was i admit , but know she is in my mind the better female character of the serie , except of the Mizukage.

Plus , What did Hinata did in the entire serie ? I mean , execpt of get her ass kik by Neji in part one , and same by Pain in part 2, not much... If someone as to be useless it's her im sorry , NH Fans

Let's try and keep the bashing to the minimum.

Well, to me their interactions seem too formal. And nothing indicates that they're even close friends.

Sakura wasn't that bad in part 1. She had her fight in the forest of death, her development with ino, and fighting of gengetsu atleast twice etc... She wasn't like she is now yes, but she was contributing somewhat.

Edited by candycane-chan, 25 February 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[sushi.]

2) Hinata understands Naruto more than Sakura ever could
Credit to Chatte for posing this question back then:
"Please explain how Hinata understands Naruto's bond with Sasuke, how she understands his loneliness, how she understands his complexes, how she understands that he needs to be cared for from time to time, how she understands his sensei's death."
The response:

She had a cousin who hated her existence - a father who considered her useless and turned her over to Kurenai as a lost cause. She's spent a considerable portion of her life merely wanting to be recognized as valid.
As for Sasuke - she's chased after Naruto and held a torch for Naruto for some time - while that's understanding on a tangent - it's something for her to empathize with. Though true empathy is, to some degree, understanding that there can only be so much empathy - so much understanding. She's also lost Neji - who was something of a brother, but a slightly different context than Naruto with Sasuke (though she did have to deal with Neji being caught up in revenge).
Losing a Sensei... well, she's currently lost Neji - who, if I remember correctly, is stated to have been training her. Again - something of a tangent and not exact. Though, for Naruto losing his sensei was less of losing a teacher and more of him losing a father (after not having one). Hinata was thrown to Kurenai by her father with the parting words of: "Don't care, she's useless to me."
There are small parallels that can give hinges for empathy. But, as I said - empathy is also understanding that you can never be the other person or completely experience their pain.

4) Sai acknowledges Sakura loves Sasuke
We use Sai's flashback as proof of Naruto's love for Sakura. But after the fake confession, while Sai is revealing Sakura's true intentions for confessing to Naruto, he states that because of Sakura's love for Sasuke, she plans to kill him herself to make sure Sasuke doesn't sink any lower on the path of darkness. She may have Naruto's feelings at heart, but her main motivation remains to be Sasuke himself.
[/font]

I won't write an essay, why bother. I'll just give my two cents on these two.

1. What you're basically saying is that Hinata has more in common with Naruto than most people think. Your reasons however, are very dull. Hinata chasing after Naruto is a completely different scenario than Naruto chasing after Sasuke..
And losing a Sensei is very different from losing a cousin, even if he was training her. A sensei has a completely different role in your life, and guess who's gonna lose her sensei soon? I think Sakura understands Naruto much more because she takes his feelings into consideration, and Hinata does not.

2. Sai said that Naruto loves Sakura. He also said that Sakura loves Naruto, or "her love for you" to be more excact. Basically, Sai said that Naruto and Sakura love eachother. Oh, my feels. Sai is seriously the nr1 NS supporter, it's like he speaks for Kishi lmao. XD And to the last part, Sai says "She was only thinking of you", that implies that Naruto was her first priority. But she wants to help them both.

I recognize this NaruHina fan. I've debated with him a lot in the past. He's probably one of the only NH fans I respect and has acknowledged my point as a possibility. But still, as usual, I disagree with absolutely everything he says. We never agree lol.

I'll definitely respond to all of this later. Right now I have school. Let's not let this thread get closed until I post, kay?

If he's a NH fan, why is he posing as a NS fan? Baguette, everyone is welcome here, just don't pretend to be something you are not. Btw, since you edited the title, you should remove the part of Sakura herself, because whether her character is good or not has nothing to do with who Naruto will end up with.

Edited by sushi., 25 February 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[candycane-chan]

I won't write an essay, why bother. I'll just give my two cents on these two.




If he's a NH fan, why is he posing as a NS fan? Baguette, everyone is welcome here, just don't pretend to be something you are not. Btw, since you edited the title, you should remove the part of Sakura herself, because whether her character is good or not has nothing to do with who Naruto will end up with.

I think this person copied the "debate" of another NH fan and put it here to read our opinions....maybe.

[Saudade]

If he's a NH fan, why is he posing as a NS fan? Baguette, everyone is welcome here, just don't pretend to be something you are not. Btw, since you edited the title, you should remove the part of Sakura herself, because whether her character is good or not has nothing to do with who Naruto will end up with.

I've seen Baguette around in narutobase forums before and he/she is definitely a narusaku fan

[HauntedCake]

2. Sai said that Naruto loves Sakura. He also said that Sakura loves Naruto, or "her love for you" to be more excact. Basically, Sai said that Naruto and Sakura love eachother. Oh, my feels. Sai is seriously the nr1 NS supporter, it's like he speaks for Kishi lmao. XD And to the last part, Sai says "She was only thinking of you", that implies that Naruto was her first priority. But she wants to help them both.

When did Sai ever say that Sakura loves Naruto? can you post a pic of the manga?

[sushi.]

When did Sai ever say that Sakura loves Naruto? can you post a pic of the manga?

It depends what translation you read, but ciardha is the one that recommended the site, so it should be accurate.

Link

I've seen Baguette around in narutobase forums before and he/she is definitely a narusaku fan

If so, then I am sorry. My bad.

Edited by sushi., 25 February 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Inferno180]

I'm a narusaku fan, but I acknowledge that NaruHina has the potential to happen, its just not that great as NaruSaku, mainly because NaruHina has a lack of a timely value, the development has mainly be oritened on Hinata and just uped all at once, I mean in all honesty, Hinata did nothing of significance in Shippuden until the pain confession, in part 1 her only real part was getting beat by Neji and Naruto having beaten him in turn.

Sadly on Hinata's character, she has a good heart but where others say Sakura falls short, my counterargument is this, "Can Hinata get character development outside of the combat zone, at least without someone being hurt in some way please? She is disaster prone, all these moments of fighting bring character development which is just too rushed. In fact Kishi could have killed Hinata off at pain and the story would not have been impacted as much, I'm serious it could have gone on as normal just with Naruto having learned of the impact of losing a friend sooner so he could have had more reason to sympathize with Sasuke.

As for understanding Naruto, she only understood how he never gave up and everyone underestimated/hated him, other than that, that is all kept to herself, Naruto himself had more interaction with Sakura and Sasuke and as he improved they gradually changed how they saw him, they were the first to acknowldge him back, Hinata may have done this first in the timeline of things but she kept it too herself and never really said it to him how did she? Sakura and Sasuke accepted him openly for his efforts, they warmed up to him and respected what he could do and how he was important with them on team 7, the difference is one part Naruto proved himself to his teammates and interacted with them, the other is Hinata did not speak to Naruto so technically she acknowledged his efforts but did not speak of it, all Hinata could associate with Naruto was how they both had trouble in their skills and were looked down upon but that is all.

Sakura came to understand Naruto better though, mainly by his efforts and her outlook completely changed when he revealed being the host for Kurama. At the end of part 1 no one still had an idea about this, the first Naruto revealed it too for those who did not know, were Sakura and Temari. Sakura saw why people had hated him and why she once did too (being influenced by the adults), this turned her around and impacted her at the grass bridge event with the 4 tails, she saw his curse and the burden and became overprotective of him, she was how he had to deal with the 9 tails and how the akaskuti was after him, Naruto was caught in a 2 way battle both of which threatened his own life. Sakura was so concerned, she wanted to learn the wood technique in an effort to protect Naruto from Kurama but she could not due to the wood style being genetic.

At this point NaruHina is still too far dense and at this point in the story, it would be too rushed, its just not as well enduring as NaruSaku.

Just one other major point, whats to say Sakura will never stop loving Sasuke? She can, Kishi even said in an interview that Sakura's love for Sasuke was selfish, it is ideal, we the readers know this and kishi says this himself. One of his main characters, his heroine has a trait like this. So with the aspects of character development, you know this is a negative attribute, kinda like how Naruto thought he should do everything himself and how Sasuke was obseed with revenge, these seem to be changing for those 2, so how is it hard to imagine Sakura turning away from Sasuke? Not saying she should love Naruto but this is a negative attribute on her, an ideal love which had no meaning, as a writier if the series ended with her still holding this, it would be her biggest trait that she never overcame, a complete waste of character development. Part of any character development is the person learns something to change these negative attributes and finds a new resolve, if Sakura kept this and Sasuke came back to the leaf, on her part it would be bad because it would happen merely because 'She hoped it would" thats just lazy, Naruto did the effort and she just hoped, that's not good at all for your main heroine kishi. I'm saying for the series to end properly with Sakura's part, she needs to get over Sasuke, at least learn the difference of real love and ideals, and it is possible for this to be happening depending on where her views on Sasuke lead due to chapter 540, she is depressed, this can lead somewhere or nowhere at all, but I'm betting it will go somewhere away from Sasuke. A negative attribute like this just cannot remain on Sakura.

[HauntedCake]

It depends what translation you read, but ciardha is the one that recommended the site, so it should be accurate.

Link


If so, then I am sorry. My bad.

[attachment=794:04.jpg]

She went there to make Naruto stop with his POAL. Her intentions wern't to go there to confess her love for him. Sai is telling this to Naruto almost like it was a stratergy plan which it pretty much was, she used this "confession" to try make him stop chasing Sasuke, not to confess her love.

Edited by HauntedCake, 25 February 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[sushi.]

[attachment=794:04.jpg]

She went there to make Naruto stop with his POAL. Her intentions wern't to go there to confess her love for him. Sai is telling this to Naruto almost like it was a stratergy plan which it pretty much was, she used this "confession" to try make him stop chasing Sasuke, not to confess her love.

I'm sorry, but so what? Sai said that she loves Naruto, regardless of why she told him.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Pretty much, Sai knows this "love triangle" though I feel like he's on Naruto's side all the way. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised that he's all favor for NaruSaku because of his strong bond. He's been in the team long enough to understand what's best for who. Naruto still don't know that he told Sakura already. I wonder how that will play.

[HauntedCake]

I'm sorry, but so what? Sai said that she loves Naruto, regardless of why she told him.

If she was so in love with him she would be telling him not sai.

Sai himself is only learning about love and you cant just say that because Sai said she loved you he's 100% correct.

[sushi.]

If she was so in love with him she would be telling him not sai.

Sai himself is only learning about love and you cant just say that because Sai said she loved you he's 100% correct.

You have a point, but if Baguette shall take what Sai said about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke into consideration, she/he also has to think of what Sai said about Naruto and Sakura's feelings for eachother.

[Phantom_999]

Some need to relax. Has Baguette bashed NS in any shape of form?

First, I should clear any potential misconceptions that might have stemmed from the thread title: This is not a thread made to argue against NaruSaku.
I am a staunch NaruSaku supporter, and will often debate with other people over at NarutoBase in support of this pairing (and Sakura herself). I just want to get other people's opinions.

Although most of the "arguments" given by NaruHina fans are easily countered and horribly biased at best, the following reasons are some of the few that actually made me think.
For a couple of these, I already have responses floating around in my head, but I really would like to get a good idea of what you guys think and how you would respond so that I can better reinforce my perspective in the future.
Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

1) Hinata's Interference during the Pain fight
Us NaruSaku fans like to argue that Hinata's attempted "rescue" of Naruto was a selfish and pointless act- that it did nothing but cause further distress for Naruto and show just how little Hinata truly understands his desires.
A different point of view, however:

Do you not think that the fight had gone beyond the point of interference? He was pinned and unable to move, and moments from being... captured/killed/unsure-but-bad-things. Hinata admitted, largely, to being selfish (because she knew she would be unlikely to be able to save him).
Naruto had, seemingly, already given in to the idea that he would end up being captured - but still have largely succeeded in protecting his friends (assuming Pain simply left). It was also implied that he was at the limits of his Nindo (without relying on the fox and endangering his friends).
Hinata's Nindo overlapped and conflicted somewhat with his. Naruto's desire to not have his friends interfere was ultimately a desire for the same thing that was about to happen in chapter 615. Hinata was not about to give up on herself, or on Naruto - and decided that it was time to act regardless of the odds and consequences be damned. ~Aim64C of NB

2) Hinata understands Naruto more than Sakura ever could
Credit to Chatte for posing this question back then:
"Please explain how Hinata understands Naruto's bond with Sasuke, how she understands his loneliness, how she understands his complexes, how she understands that he needs to be cared for from time to time, how she understands his sensei's death."
The response:

She had a cousin who hated her existence - a father who considered her useless and turned her over to Kurenai as a lost cause. She's spent a considerable portion of her life merely wanting to be recognized as valid.
As for Sasuke - she's chased after Naruto and held a torch for Naruto for some time - while that's understanding on a tangent - it's something for her to empathize with. Though true empathy is, to some degree, understanding that there can only be so much empathy - so much understanding. She's also lost Neji - who was something of a brother, but a slightly different context than Naruto with Sasuke (though she did have to deal with Neji being caught up in revenge).
Losing a Sensei... well, she's currently lost Neji - who, if I remember correctly, is stated to have been training her. Again - something of a tangent and not exact. Though, for Naruto losing his sensei was less of losing a teacher and more of him losing a father (after not having one). Hinata was thrown to Kurenai by her father with the parting words of: "Don't care, she's useless to me."
There are small parallels that can give hinges for empathy. But, as I said - empathy is also understanding that you can never be the other person or completely experience their pain.

If Sakura understood Naruto better, then why was Sakura unable to reach through to Naruto's walls of "I don't deserve..." that Hinata so effortlessly shattered?
The answer is simple: Sakura doesn't really see that the wall exists. She hasn't been lonely - not like Naruto has. She's never felt the isolation of no one wanting you. The only thing she really empathizes strongly with Naruto is her feelings of loss over Sasuke... and even then - Sasuke was, quite literally, a brother to Naruto (or the only thing he could begin to identify as a brother). He was a friend and eye-candy to Sakura. ~Aim64C

3) Yamato himself was enraged at Sakura for her fake confession
We like to cite Yamato's line at the Heaven and Earth bridge as proof that Sakura possibly loves Naruto.
However, his reaction during Sakura's confession was one of suspicion and anger. If this doesn't almost retcon his line from before, it at the very least shows that he could tell Sakura was lying about loving Naruto at that moment.

4) Sai acknowledges Sakura loves Sasuke
We use Sai's flashback as proof of Naruto's love for Sakura. But after the fake confession, while Sai is revealing Sakura's true intentions for confessing to Naruto, he states that because of Sakura's love for Sasuke, she plans to kill him herself to make sure Sasuke doesn't sink any lower on the path of darkness. She may have Naruto's feelings at heart, but her main motivation remains to be Sasuke himself.


As to an analysis of Sakura herself:
While Sakura was awesome indeed during the Kazekage Rescue Arc, she has regressed horribly since then:
-Despite having specifically trained in evasion as a medic, one of the first things she does at the Heaven and Earth bridge is get knocked out and depend on Yamato to rescue her. When she awakes, she then runs crying towards Naruto, who is in his Four-Tails form. This serves as a reminder of her past role as a useless damsel in distress who simply serves to bring drama into a situation.
-The same thing happens in their first encounter with Sasuke, where she is the first one to get knocked out, and stays out of action for the rest of the confrontation.
-After the destruction of Konoha by Pain, she is the one who screams out helplessly for Naruto, again fulfilling her role as a person on the sidelines simply used to add dramatic flair to a situation
-During the second Team 7 confrontation, she puts herself in a damsel in distress situation as Sasuke is about to drive a Chidori through her chest. It's up to Kakashi to come and save her.
Later on in the fight the same exact thing happens again: she idiotically puts herself in danger and Naruto has to come to her rescue at the very last second.
-Despite being the one to uncover the plot involving White Zetsu, Sakura herself is tricked the next day by the Zetsus in disguise, and once again, Naruto must come rescue her from her damsel in distress role.

Really, it's as if Kishi dedicated an arc to her character development, then as soon as it was it was over let her return to the way she was for majority of Part 1: a useless damsel in distress. In this sense, she is not deserving of her title as the apparent "heroine" of the series.



How would you personally counter some of these arguments? Or are they legitimate reasons as to why NaruHina is the better pairing and why Sakura makes a bad heroine?


*edited the title, hopefully it sounds a lot tamer now. Sorry about that

Good points.

However I'd like to address some of them. I acknowledge Hinata did what she felt was right, and I do not disregard it. However to be honest, wouldn't have anyone else have produced that same effect? wouldn't have Shikamaru, or Lee, or Ino, or Lee, or Neji or anyone else have gotten the same rage from Naruto if he saw Pain Stab them? Naruto cherishes his friends. Also Even after Hinata's confession I see him treating her no different form before. Same to Sakura for the sake of argument. Naruto did not seem to treat Sakura any different after she confessed to him.

Yamato getting angry at Sakura during her confession. Hmm, well given the circumstances I'd be surprised if he wasn't shocked. When I think back on it,it is reasonable because Sakura always seemed to have Sasuke in some form on her mind and for her to say that she gave up on him out of the blue and start chasing Naruto instead was not expected. He was not angry at her for confessing to Naruto, but suspicious that she would just come out to say that She loves Naruto and would not bother with Sasuke anymore, which is not like her at all. Kakashi suspected something of course because he ESPECIALLY knows this is out of character for Sakura. It was not about confessing to Naruto that drew their suspicion , but saying she feels nothing for Sasuke who is her teammate and the first person she felt romantic affection for.

Sai acknowledging Sakura loves Sasuke. This is indicating that she sill feels something for him but does indicate Sakura wants to be with Sasuke. She has lingering feelings for him but that does not disregard what she feels for Naruto. She has shown through her actions that she also loves Naruto and that she wishes to bear his pain with him in some way or another.

I have no argument as to why Kishi s not focusing on her as the heroine after the Sasori arc, but the series is not done yet and I'm sure he will eventually get to it.

Edited by Phantom_999, 25 February 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[narusakurama]

If she was so in love with him she would be telling him not sai.

Sai himself is only learning about love and you cant just say that because Sai said she loved you he's 100% correct.

But I thought she had just done that ... she did tell Naruto herself that she loved him . It was Naruto that couldn't accept it and that actually did not go well with her . And if what Sai says is not 100% correct then that applies to everything he says , including SS . Actually , he is more likely to be right about NS than about SS , as he spent more time with them and actually saw them interact with each other .

Also , hasn't Kishi already said in an interview that Sakura was a honest girl with a stubborn impression (or something along those lines ? ) during her confession ?

[Gravenimage]

[attachment=794:04.jpg]

She went there to make Naruto stop with his POAL. Her intentions wern't to go there to confess her love for him. Sai is telling this to Naruto almost like it was a stratergy plan which it pretty much was, she used this "confession" to try make him stop chasing Sasuke, not to confess her love.

Exactly her purpose to find Naruto was to stop chasing Sasuke ending the POTLT so why did she bothered telling him she loves him? Sakura was planning to kill Sasuke and she expected she was going to die in doing so. So it will make sense why she confessed to him, if she does die then it's better to tell him how she really feels for him. She wanted him to know that in the end after all the sacrifices and pain he went through to bring back Sasuke and for trying to make her happy, she eventually fell in love with him. That's why I highly believed she was been honest in her confession (aside that Kishi confirming she was been honest lol.)

Edited by Gravenimage, 25 February 2013 - 08:57 PM.

[Slextrem]

1) Hinata's Interference during the Pain fight

Do you not think that the fight had gone beyond the point of interference? He was pinned and unable to move, and moments from being... captured/killed/unsure-but-bad-things. Hinata admitted, largely, to being selfish (because she knew she would be unlikely to be able to save him).
Naruto had, seemingly, already given in to the idea that he would end up being captured - but still have largely succeeded in protecting his friends (assuming Pain simply left). It was also implied that he was at the limits of his Nindo (without relying on the fox and endangering his friends).
Hinata's Nindo overlapped and conflicted somewhat with his. Naruto's desire to not have his friends interfere was ultimately a desire for the same thing that was about to happen in chapter 615. Hinata was not about to give up on herself, or on Naruto - and decided that it was time to act regardless of the odds and consequences be damned. ~Aim64C of NB

The fact that Hinata wanted to interfere with the Pain fight isn't the problem that I have with her confession. Naruto clearly was in a bad spot and needed help. My problem was her intentions behind jumping into the battle. She didn't do it to save Naruto; she did it to confess her feelings so that she wouldn't have any regrets.

Hinata knew that she was no match against Pain; she knew that jumping down there all by herself would be pointless, but she did it anyway. As a ninja, that was incredibly stupid of her. If saving Naruto was truly what she wanted to do, then as a ninja, she should have been trying to come up with a plan to get Naruto out of that pinch. At the very least, she could have tried gathering other people to assist her. No one else was going to jump in after her because only the Hyuuga clan could actually see what was going on, and most of them were injured. Her guard, for example, was down with a broken leg. That's why he couldn't stop her from leaving. Everyone else was blind to what was happening to Naruto - that's why no one else was trying to save him. (Plus Naruto had told everyone to believe in him and stay out of it...) She knew that, but still she didn't try to round up a team of less injured shinobi to go down there with her. Sure, a group would still be nothing against Pain, but they could have at least caused enough of a distraction for her to get the rods out of Naruto's arms. That was all she needed to do, as he could have pulled the rest out himself.

That didn't happen though. So now we have Hinata standing in front of Naruto with Pain, an enemy that was capable of completely crushing the village, staring her down. There were still other things that she could have done to save Naruto in this situation, or at least tried to help him with. The anime team pretty much covered the possibilities with their filler version of her confession. The first thing that filler Hinata does during her confession is attack the rods in Naruto. If saving Naruto was what she wanted to do, that would have been the obvious course of action. But canon Hinata doesn't do that.

Canon Hinata either wasn't trying to save Naruto, or was actually stupid enough to think that charging at Pain was going to do something to save Naruto, which clearly wasn't the case. Because I don't want to completely lose all hope in Hinata as a character, I choose to believe in the first option. All she wanted to do was confess to him so that she would have no regrets later on. She wasn't thinking about what she would do to help him after she confessed. She just wanted to get her feelings off of her chest as she thought that was her last opportunity to do so. That's what makes her confession selfish instead of selfless. She was acting for herself, not for Naruto. She didn't have his well-being in mind. If she did, she would have stopped to think about how witnessing a friend being murdered in front of him, while completely powerless to stop it, would have affected Naruto. Kyuubi or no Kyuubi, she had to have known that that wouldn't have affected him in a positive way, but she chooses to charge at Pain anyway.

Also, she had no way of knowing prior to jumping down there that Naruto was going to unleash the Kyuubi's power. I don't even think she knew that Naruto had the Kyuubi in him at that point. This just proves that she had no intention of saving him. Her plan was to jump down there, confess, and attack Pain (all the while knowing that she stood no chance against him.) None of which had anything to do with actually helping Naruto out of his predicament. Had it not been for the Kyuubi, Naruto would have been left in the exact same position that he was in before Hinata chose to "save him". Pinned to the ground with Pain standing over him. The only difference would be that Hinata's mangled body would be laying a few feet away from him. Nice one, Hinata.

She's lucky as hell that:
1) Naruto went Kyuubi, because ultimately that's what saved him.
2) He didn't accidentally step on her or pick her up and fling her mangled body into the horizon.
3) He was drawn away from the village, leaving what few survivors there were alive.
4) Minato was there to save Naruto from being completely overtaken by the Kyuubi.

This was all pure luck. Hinata had no idea that any of this was going to happen.

2) Hinata understands Naruto more than Sakura ever could

I could not disagree more...

She had a cousin who hated her existence - a father who considered her useless and turned her over to Kurenai as a lost cause. She's spent a considerable portion of her life merely wanting to be recognized as valid.

Yes, Hinata had a terrible life growing up and she can empathize to some degree with Naruto. Most of the Konoha 11 can empathize with him over one thing or another. Some other examples are Lee, Shikamaru, and Neji. Lee knows what it's like being thought of as a loser and having to work hard to get stronger, just like Naruto. Shikamaru lost Asuma, so he completely understood how Naruto felt when Jiraiya died. Although Neji was considered a genius, he was treated as a tool during most of his childhood, the same way that a Jinchuriki might be treated by it's villagers. None of them understand complete what Naruto has gone through throughout his life, but they all understand a different part of his pain.

Like them, Hinata has a basic understanding of how Naruto felt during his childhood, though not completely. She knew what it was like being looked down on, not by the entire village, but by her father. Does this mean that she understands Naruto better than any of the other K11? No. She somewhat understands part of the pain he went through, like many of the other K11. She could empathize with Naruto, but one thing that I hold against Hinata is the fact that she didn't do anything to help him. None of the other K11 really paid any attention to Naruto, but supposedly, Hinata was always watching him. If she knew how he felt, you would think that she would have done something to get closer to him - to show him that he wasn't alone. She doesn't do that though. This is another selfish aspect of Hinata's character. She's fine drawing strength from Naruto while watching him suffer, but she does nothing to return the favor to him. She doesn't even talk to him until the Chuunin Exams.

Which is another point to bring up regarding her "understanding Naruto better than Sakura". Hinata watched Naruto. She didn't try to get to know him personally, she just looked at the image he portrayed. A determined and hardworking boy that she was able to draw strength from. That's the image that Naruto portrays on the surface, but that's not who he is as a person. Hinata doesn't know the person beneath the image which is why every time we see her supporting him, she's always reinforcing his nindo. That's the only thing she knows to do because that's all she understands about Naruto. She doesn't know about his personal life of the struggles that he's been through with his team. If that wasn't the case, she would have known to stand up for Sasuke when the K11 decided to target him, knowing that Naruto wants to save him. She would have been there for him when he returned without Sasuke the first time, and the second time, and the time after that. She would have shown more of an interest in learning about Jinchuriki and how to support Naruto through his insecurities revolving around the Kyuubi. She would have been there for him more than she has.

But the thing is, Hinata doesn't know Naruto. She knows his image and his nindo, but she doesn't know the person behind those walls. She didn't say anything during that meeting because she doesn't know Naruto enough to think, "He wouldn't want this". She's not there for him when he loses Sasuke all three times because she's shut out of that part of Naruto's life. She hasn't show an interest in learning about the Kyuubi because she didn't know that it was sealed in Naruto or how it's affected his life. She isn't there for him because she's not close enough to him to know when she should be there for him. She is like all of the other rookies. She's seen his determination and has been inspired by him, but she doesn't know anything beneath that.

As for Sasuke - she's chased after Naruto and held a torch for Naruto for some time - while that's understanding on a tangent - it's something for her to empathize with. Though true empathy is, to some degree, understanding that there can only be so much empathy - so much understanding. She's also lost Neji - who was something of a brother, but a slightly different context than Naruto with Sasuke (though she did have to deal with Neji being caught up in revenge).

You're actually going to compare Naruto chasing after Sasuke to Hinata chasing after Naruto? Number one, Hinata's bond with Naruto is no where near as strong as Naruto's bond with Sasuke. The entire plot of this manga revolves around Naruto's bond with Sasuke. I'm completely flabbergasted that someone would think to compare that to what Hinata has with Naruto. Her bond with him is on the same level as his bond with any of the other rookies. She is his friend, but she is not part of his "most treasured people" circle. That includes Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi, Iruka, and Konohamaru. After that comes the other K11.

Number two, Naruto is not Sasuke. Naruto hasn't fallen into darkness. Naruto hasn't told her that he wants to sever his bond with her. Naruto hasn't left the village to seek revenge. Naruto hasn't tried to kill her every time she gets close to him. It's impossible for her to feel the same pain that Naruto feels while chasing Sasuke. He's driven by his desire to bring Sasuke back to the light. Hinata is driven by her love. That's just... ugh. I'm almost offended that someone would compare the two. The comparison with Neji is better, though Neji never came near falling as far into darkness as Sasuke did and Hinata was never compelled to save him. She wasn't chasing after Neji - she was afraid of him.

No matter what kind of loop holes you try to jump through, Hinata is never going to be able to empathize with Naruto over chasing Sasuke. Ino can empathize with Naruto over this more than Hinata can. Ino at least had some sort of connection to Sasuke. She loved him and felt the same pain that Naruto and Sakura felt when Sasuke left, although I'm sure her pain wasn't nearly as strong as theirs. Her tears during their meeting about killing Sasuke are proof of her pain. Meanwhile, Hinata stands there and says nothing because she knows nothing about it. She doesn't even know to stand up for Sasuke, as that's what Naruto would want.

Losing a Sensei... well, she's currently lost Neji - who, if I remember correctly, is stated to have been training her. Again - something of a tangent and not exact. Though, for Naruto losing his sensei was less of losing a teacher and more of him losing a father (after not having one). Hinata was thrown to Kurenai by her father with the parting words of: "Don't care, she's useless to me."

If anyone can understand Naruto's pain over losing Jiraiya, it would be Shikamaru. He actually did lose his sensei. He held Asuma in his arms as he died. He knew exactly what Naruto was going through when Jiraiya died, which is why he's the one that goes to comfort Naruto instead of Hinata. Hinata never lost Kurenai, and although Neji was training her, he hardly counts as her Sensei. Sparring with a family member to get a better understanding of how to use her bloodline is not the same as actually having a teacher watching over you every day.

Also, she didn't seem nearly as hurt over losing Neji as Naruto did after he lost Jiraiya. Hinata was able to forget that her cousin's body was laying at her feet as soon as Naruto grabbed her hand. "Naruto-kun's hand is big, strong, and makes me feel safe." Wow. How about, "Neji-nii-san, I won't let your sacrifice be in vain. Watch me. I'm going to protect Naruto-kun with my life!" ...Nope. She doesn't even throw him a bone.

As for losing her father, you can't compare that to losing Jiraiya. Jiraiya died. Her father is still alive and well and actually accepts her as a member of his clan now. He has ever since the Chuunin Exams. The pain that she felts when it comes to her father ignoring her could be, at best, compared to Naruto being shunned by the villagers.

There are small parallels that can give hinges for empathy. But, as I said - empathy is also understanding that you can never be the other person or completely experience their pain.

Yes, but you're comparing such minute examples in Hinata's life to huge events that happened to Naruto. It's like you're trying to force a circle to fit into a triangular shaped hole. It doesn't work. Hinata understand Naruto about the same as any of the other rookies. She hasn't been through as much as you're trying to compare here. I think I explained my reasoning for that well enough.

If Sakura understood Naruto better, then why was Sakura unable to reach through to Naruto's walls of "I don't deserve..." that Hinata so effortlessly shattered?
The answer is simple: Sakura doesn't really see that the wall exists.

The only thing that Hinata has managed to "effortlessly shatter" was Naruto's seal on the Kyuubi, and that was by accident. She hasn't torn down any of his walls. If this is supposed to be a reference to 615, I would like to point out that she wasn't the one that ultimately snapped Naruto out of his funk. That achievement was unlocked by Kurama. (He seems to slip everyone's mind when it comes to 615.) Her speech was built off of what Neji said before he died. All she did was regurgitate that message back to Naruto. We should be thanking Neji and Kurama for doing the hard part. Also, one thing I'd like to point out is that Naruto hides behind his nindo. He would follow it blindly even if it means killing himself, and all Hinata is able to do is reinforce it because that's all she understands about him. "You never give up. It's your nindo." That's not a good thing. Sakura can see that.

For example, when Naruto is going four tails, Sakura thinks back to Naruto saying three things in Part One: "I'll bring Sasuke back no matter what! It's a promise of a lifetime!";"Sakura-chan... I'm keeping my promise!"; "I'm not going back on my words. That's my ninja way!" The third brings tears to her eyes, and then she runs after Naruto and tells him that she'll find Sasuke so that he doesn't have to.

A more recent example would comes from her confession:

"You're always chasing after Sasuke and putting your life in danger! Akatsuki is after you because you're the Kyuubi's host! You should be worried about your own safety! I... I don't want you to go after Sasuke if it means putting yourself in danger like that!" - Sakura Haruno

She knows the dangers of his nindo and she doesn't want to risk losing him because of it. I should refer you to JamesSCassidy about this issue. He has a lot of really well-thought out things to say about this.

Anyway, I don't know what you mean when you say that Sakura can't see that his walls exist. She's been aware of that since the end of Part One and has spent a majority of the time in Shippuden trying to relieve him of his burden.

"I'm sorry Naruto... I had to make you wait a while but... Next time we'll do it together!"

"Naruto... You've been through a lot, haven't you...? ...'This time, I will save those two!'"

"Then the ones made into Jinchuriki-!!! ...How do you remove a Bijuu?"; "You're always moved to tears, Sakura-chan. I told you not to worry! I'll rescue Gaara!"; "Naruto, it's you I'm-!! ...Naruto..."

Sai: "Sakura, you're very gentle when it comes to Naruto..."

"Naruto! That's enough! I'll save Sasuke-kun for you! So Naruto, it's enough! You don't need to!"

"Yamato-taichou, that jutsu that you stopped Naruto with just now... Would you... Would you be willing to teach it to me?"

"Same as always... I can only do the dumbest things for Naruto."

"Crying... Can't bring him back to us. I'm still with you. We'll get stronger together!"

"You're always chasing after Sasuke and putting your life in danger! Akatsuki is after you because you're the Kyuubi's host! You should be worried about your own safety! I... I don't want you to go after Sasuke if it means putting yourself in danger like that!"

"Naruto, you always get left with these insurmountable tasks, but no matter what you say this time, we're going to be together! Not just me... We're going to all fight together this time!"

I could go throughout the entire series and find example after example of Sakura supporting Naruto and doing what she can to relieve him of his burdens. These are just a few examples that occur at the end of Part One and into the start of Shippuden. I gave two recent examples too. Her confession, which completely revolved around Naruto's well-being, and her speech during chapter 573.

Anyway, for a better analysis of this, refer to JamesSCassidy's thread about The Walls of Naruto.

She hasn't been lonely - not like Naruto has. She's never felt the isolation of no one wanting you. The only thing she really empathizes strongly with Naruto is her feelings of loss over Sasuke... and even then - Sasuke was, quite literally, a brother to Naruto (or the only thing he could begin to identify as a brother). He was a friend and eye-candy to Sakura. ~Aim64C

Sakura hasn't been lonely? She's never felt unwanted? How about when she was being bullied by everyone about her forehead? How about when she felt trapped in Ino's shadow? How about when she felt she would never be acknowledged for her own strengths - which is why she sought out Sasuke's approval? How about all of those times taht Sasuke, the guy that she loved, put her down? How about when Sasuke left and she expressed that losing him would make her feel just as lonely as losing her parents? How about when Naruto went away for training, and she was left in the village on her own for two years? How about all of the times she's felt completely powerless to help Naruto, as the only things that she can do are "small and insignificant"?

Part of the reason why Naruto was attracted to her in the first place was because she was seeking out acknowledgement - something that Naruto had been working for his entire life. Go back and read chapter three. Sakura says: "All I want is.. For you to acknowledge me." That resounds in Naruto so much that he ends up repeating her words in his head. Then he thinks, "I feel like I finally understand... why I like her." It's because she's the same as him. Both Naruto and Sakura were seeking acknowledgement from Sasuke, but neither have been able to obtain it.

It's been canonically proven that Sakura is similar to Naruto, not just in how she acts and thinks but also the kind of pain that she's been through. She understands the pain that Naruto felt when he lost Sasuke because Sasuke was just as important to her. He wasn't just "eye-candy". He was her goal, her teammate, the boy that she loved. Team Seven is like a family. That means Sakura had the same familial bond with Sasuke that Naruto did. It may not have been as strong as the bond between the two boys, but Sasuke was always an important person to Sakura. That's why they work so hard to chase after Sasuke. I can't believe someone would actually argue otherwise. You might as well throw Kakashi under the bus as well, if that's what you think. I mean, he was only Sasuke's sensei. It's not like he really had an attachment to Sasuke or anything.

3) Yamato himself was enraged at Sakura for her fake confession
We like to cite Yamato's line at the Heaven and Earth bridge as proof that Sakura possibly loves Naruto.
However, his reaction during Sakura's confession was one of suspicion and anger. If this doesn't almost retcon his line from before, it at the very least shows that he could tell Sakura was lying about loving Naruto at that moment.

Reacting like this:

To this:


vs

Reacting to this:

Like this:

4) Sai acknowledges Sakura loves Sasuke
We use Sai's flashback as proof of Naruto's love for Sakura. But after the fake confession, while Sai is revealing Sakura's true intentions for confessing to Naruto, he states that because of Sakura's love for Sasuke, she plans to kill him herself to make sure Sasuke doesn't sink any lower on the path of darkness. She may have Naruto's feelings at heart, but her main motivation remains to be Sasuke himself.

1) The confession itself may not have been fake.

2) The difference between Sai's flashback and what Sai tells Naruto in 474 is that Naruto actually admitted to him that he loves Sakura. Sai wasn't assuming anything there. He was remembering an actual conversation that occurred between himself and Naruto, where Naruto admitted to loving Sakura. In 474, we're seeing an assumption from both Naruto and Sai. Naruto is remembering Sakura from Part One, when she was still fangirling over Sasuke, and assumes that she still loves him now as strongly as she did then. Sai goes off of his words and says that she's going to kill Sasuke out of love for him. None of this is actually confirmed by Sakura, herself.

We do have chapter 540 which tells us that she does have lingering feelings for Sasuke, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't love Naruto. Likewise, just because Sai and Naruto make an assumption without her confirmation, it doesn't mean that they're right.

I can play this "Sai's word is truf" game for 474 as well. In the same chapter where he says that Sakura loves Sasuke, Sai says the followingi:

"She thought she'd lessen your burden by giving up on Sasuke and confessing her love for you."

He never says that she lied during her confession, so it must be true. Sai said it. I guess that means I win.

...Except, just like with your argument regarding Sakura loving Sasuke, Sai hasn't heard Sakura admit to loving Naruto. That means I can't use that particular line as a clue that she really was telling the truth during her confession. Likewise, what he says about Sakura loving Sasuke shouldn't be used as solid evidence of her feelings. Until Sakura directly tells us what her feelings are, all we can do is speculate. And yes, that includes 540. She thought of Sasuke, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love Naruto.

As to an analysis of Sakura herself:
While Sakura was awesome indeed during the Kazekage Rescue Arc, she has regressed horribly since then:
-Despite having specifically trained in evasion as a medic, one of the first things she does at the Heaven and Earth bridge is get knocked out and depend on Yamato to rescue her. When she awakes, she then runs crying towards Naruto, who is in his Four-Tails form. This serves as a reminder of her past role as a useless damsel in distress who simply serves to bring drama into a situation.

That's because Naruto unexpectedly sent a surge of Kyuubi chakra out in response to Orochimaru and shook the entire bridge. There wasn't anything to evade. She was thrown back because of the sheer force of the Kyuubi's chakra and hit her head, but she at least managed to recuperate quickly. She was awake and on her feet by the next chapter.

The reason why she runs towards Naruto is because she thinks it's her fault that he's lost control. She has Kabuto whispering about Naruto turning into a monster in her ear and thoughts of Part One Naruto making his promise to her come flooding to her head. She thinks it's because of the promise that he's going to such extremes to bring Sasuke back, which is why she runs at him crying. She doesn't want to lose him to the Kyuubi because of that request she made two years ago. That's why she says that she'll save Sasuke so that he doesn't have to. She wanted her words to get through to him. She thought they would wake him up. It doesn't make her useless. It shows how much she cares about Naruto. She's willing to find Sasuke all by herself if it means that he's safe.

It's really not fair to only label Sakura a useless damsel that's used for drama. Kishimoto uses all of his females characters like that. He's put Sakura in that situation before, though I completely disagree with the example you've provided here. Some better examples would be when Sasuke is about to hit her with a Chidori. Or when Gaara slams her into the tree in Part One. He's put Ino in that situation when Kakazu grabbed hold of her neck and dragged her off. He's also put Hinata into that situation as well. Hinata vs Pain, anyone? You don't think she acted as a useless damsel in distress to bring drama into the situation in that scene? Please. The only reason why Sakura has been put into that situation more than the other girls is because she's a member of Team Seven. Kishimoto has more opportunities to use her in that fashion, which I dislike, but there's not much that can be done about it.

-The same thing happens in their first encounter with Sasuke, where she is the first one to get knocked out, and stays out of action for the rest of the confrontation.

But Sakura wasn't knocked out during their first encounter with Sasuke. In fact, the only one left standing at the end of that confrontation was Sakura. This argument is just... ugh.

Sakura was going to attack Sasuke but then Yamato jumped in front of her. Going by this logic, I guess that means Yamato, Sai, and Naruto are all useless, since none of them could stop Sasuke. I mean, Sai and Naruto ended up getting electrocuted by Sasuke's Body Chidori and Yamato couldn't even dodge Sasuke's sword. How pathetic and useless of them...

-After the destruction of Konoha by Pain, she is the one who screams out helplessly for Naruto, again fulfilling her role as a person on the sidelines simply used to add dramatic flair to a situation

Because she knows that they've been completely defeated and knows that Naruto is the only one that can save them...?

I love how you don't mention any of the things that she did before Naruto's arrival and afterward. Like how she punched out one of Pain's summons with one hit, saved and healed a little girl and her grandmother, watched over Tsunade when she was down and out (Yeah, Tsunade couldn't even handle the situation and you're getting on Sakura's case?), had all of the villagers evacuate when she heard that Naruto had gone six tails, healed Hinata before she died, etc... She acted as a leader during that war. There was only so much that she could do, but at least she was helping. "It's not the size of what you do that counts. What matters are your feelings..."

At least she did something to help and her efforts amounted to more than what we saw Hinata do. You can scroll back up and read what I have to say about Hinata challenging Pain.

-During the second Team 7 confrontation, she puts herself in a damsel in distress situation as Sasuke is about to drive a Chidori through her chest. It's up to Kakashi to come and save her. Later on in the fight the same exact thing happens again: she idiotically puts herself in danger and Naruto has to come to her rescue at the very last second.

Yes, she was put into a damsel in distress situation here. Kishimoto used her as a way to introduce both Naruto and Kakashi to the scene. He does that a lot with his female characters, unfortunately. The first time, she was caught off guard. She didn't expect him to try and kill her right off of the bat. Though the second time, I really do believe she thought she could take out Sasuke. Her resolve crumbled at the last minute.

-Despite being the one to uncover the plot involving White Zetsu, Sakura herself is tricked the next day by the Zetsus in disguise, and once again, Naruto must come rescue her from her damsel in distress role.

I'm going to quote James for this.

"Hinata has been in three battles throughout the manga. She lost in all of them. Neji...lost. Pein....lost. Zetsu clones...Lost. The fourth battle...she needed severe help from Naruto to boost her. Sakura? She managed to take on a Zetsu clone by herself an was going to deal with the other two, but Naruto was quicker to the punch. Put it this way, Naruto saved Sakura and Hinata from the clones, but let me ask you which one was on the ground thinking they were pathetic? Not Sakura."

Really, it's as if Kishi dedicated an arc to her character development, then as soon as it was it was over let her return to the way she was for majority of Part 1: a useless damsel in distress. In this sense, she is not deserving of her title as the apparent "heroine" of the series.

Kishimoto seems to think otherwise.

[FoolishYoungling]

@Slextrem: Will you ever let the NaruHina fans believe slightly in their pairing? You just walk right in and crush all their hopes and dreams. So rude!

[Slextrem]

@Slextrem: Will you ever let the NaruHina fans believe slightly in their pairing? You just walk right in and crush all their hopes and dreams. So rude!

When someone bullies my OTP... --Click here to view--

I found this post on Tumblr and thought it was appropriate.

Edited by Slextrem, 25 February 2013 - 09:54 PM.