Your statement is obviously full of ignorance. Being offended by a joke makes a person ridiculous? He hardly even made a joke, it was "Hey, wouldn't it be funny if she got raped?" It was retarded and completely inappropriate.
Full of ignorance? She was a heckler! I don't care who you are. Comedians make observations and poke fun at society, in all of its goods and its evils. No matter what a comedian talks about, it's going to offend someone somewhere. But if you decide to interrupt the set, well, the nail that stands out is the one to get hammered down.
Notice how the women in the audience CHEERED? I should find this offensive. But A) It's true. And B) It's hilarious.
Edited by PachucoDesigns, 20 July 2012 - 05:04 AM.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.
Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.
I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.
Full of ignorance? She was a heckler! I don't care who you are. Comedians make observations and poke fun at society, in all of its goods and its evils. No matter what a comedian talks about, it's going to offend someone somewhere. But if you decide to interrupt the set, well, the nail that stands out is the one to get hammered down.
She was asking for it for standing out and saying whatever she said, that I understand and it would be understandable for a comedian to use that person as an easy target for a joke.... but if you call that a joke.... I question your sense of humor. Even if I look at it from a non-offensive view.... it was just awful for a joke.
She was asking for it for standing out and saying whatever she said, that I understand and it would be understandable for a comedian to use that person as an easy target for a joke.... but if you call that a joke.... I question your sense of humor. Even if I look at it from a non-offensive view.... it was just awful for a joke.
And sorry, your link isn't working for me.
I'm not saying it's the absolute best way he could have segued out of it, but she deserved to be called out. And the reason everyone in the audience laughed at it was because they knew from the start that it was not to be taken seriously. She was the only one who didn't, along with her friend. And when it comes to this topic, regardless of the joke, it's always bound to cause a brush fire in the feminist crowd crying foul for rape culture. Look at Dave Chappelle's video that I just posted. Nobody in the room had a problem with it. And not only that, the women in the audience cheered as soon as they heard the victims were men. Can you imagine in your wildest dreams all of the men in the room cheering for a joke about female rape?
Link is corrected, try it again.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.
Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.
I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.
(inb4 i'm yelled back at because im an inconsiderate kitten who doesn't give a kitten about others, cause i truly could care less of what others think on this subject.)
nah I think that makes you an opportunist. Which isn't a disadvantageous road to take in life.
But it isn't. It's a joke. Does it have a punchline? It's a JOKE! My god, people never cease to amaze me... This lady was a heckler. He didn't actually want her to get raped. But a comedian takes his performance seriously. It isn't just an open forum for people to interrupt and have nice little chats and philanthropic discussions. If you're going to heckle and interrupt his act like a douche, then a comedian who is good at what he does is going to recover by making an example of you and gaining a laugh at your expense. Heckle at your own risk, lest you be humiliated. It was her own fault that she had to walk away crying and butt hurt.
@joke: oh hey it wasn't. and it didn't have a punchline, try again.
@my god: oh em gee my lord and savior, it's such an impossibly ~crazy world we live in when people get offended by such things like rape! When will these rape victims/women deal with it? Or when people just joke about it! It's not like their jokes don't perpetuate an already heavily deteriorating rape cuture that gets worse each day! C'mon guys, brush your emotional scars off and laugh at yourselves for once! Even though you're terrified by the very real threat of rape, each day, why don't you just see the humor in it! Fear is funny! We do it! (btw i have this friend who was a rape victim which validates my preaching about how rape jokes are harmless, dwi)
give me a break. If you're trying to make a joke about something there should be A) a point to it B) a punchline and C) a response
Tosh had one of the three above, can you guess which one?
All in all, I'm baffled by people being disappointed in people being offended by things like this. I don't want to live in a world where this kitten is allowed to run rampant (at least moreso than it already is) with no consequence in sight. Normalizing these types of things (e.g., rape; racism) gives way to more of it - it's not hard to understand.
@heckling: to heckle you have to have a predetermined mindset to interrupt the comedian to benefit yourself in terms of self-centered egocentrism. In some cases hecklers interrupt comedians because they're bored and/or drunk, in other cases they don't like the comedian himself/herself - this woman spoke up to call BS in his humor. Despite Tosh having a penchant for shock humor (wtf is this even, it's 2012) and her not being familiar with his shtick, she wasn't in the complete wrong for calling out his joke. It wasn't funny and she let him know, constructive criticism? Sure, but wrong place, wrong time. A wake-up call? Maybe. A waste of time? Definitely because Tosh seems the type to disregard those who aren't agreeable to his sense of humor (i.e., type of thinking) and in turn proves it, but that's just me.
As tricksie stated before, this all could have been avoided if Tosh handled it better. If he wasn't so, idk a word you provided, ~butthurt about an audience member not loving everything he was spewing, he could have handled her interruption better. But he didn't and that's the problem here. A huge glaring problem because he didn't so much as throw a joke at her in her expense as per usual of a comedian during a performance, but instead threatened her with a sexual violent situation that is very realistic and viable just to get her to leave him alone (or in otherwords, pure freedom to hold an audience captive with more of his golden witticisms).
It's not a joke, it's a full-out almost sociopathic threat. The threat therein being born from his indignation at someone considering him to be not as funny as he, personally, thinks he is. In fact, if he was so much in the right, why did he react the way he did? If what she said was so baseless, why did he handle it so badly?
Seriously if you're so sure of it being otherwise, tell me about the joke. Explain it to me because I don't get it.
Girl: "Actually rape jokes are nevery funny!"
Tosh: "Wouldn’t it be funny if [you] got raped by like, 5 guys right now? Like right now? What if a bunch of guys just raped [you]?"
Full of ignorance? She was a heckler! I don't care who you are. Comedians make observations and poke fun at society, in all of its goods and its evils. No matter what a comedian talks about, it's going to offend someone somewhere. But if you decide to interrupt the set, well, the nail that stands out is the one to get hammered down.
Who cares if she was a heckler? That's not the reason why there's so much outrage over what prompted Tosh to respond, it's the fact of what he said in response and how unwarranted it was.
It's not like she completely shut down his performance. She didn't rip the mic from his hand, throw it out of reaching distance and continue to ridicule his sense of humor. She interrupted once, with a valid statement (this doesn't absolve her from her disruption ofc) - that's it.
Her doing only that doesn't justify him to say the thing he said. You read what she wrote (or not w/e), she said she was terrified, shaken, completely uncomfortable by what he said and the fact that the audience supported it with vitriolic laughter. Sure they wouldn't wish rape on her, but they didn't see the problem in it possibly happening. The audience and Tosh equated this "joke" to something trivial enough to be laughed at, for their benefit - it reminds me of mob mentality.
also if we're posting links, here's a good way to deal with a heckler (warning: language and sex anecdote):
Notice how the women in the audience CHEERED? I should find this offensive. But A) It's true. And B) It's hilarious.
olawd i cant
The audience cheered because they were applauding him pointing out the fact that the prevalent homophobia in male individuals, and society in general, being raped trivializes the very serious fact that it happens and it's damaging - no matter your gender. You shouldn't find it offensive, you should be applauding with them - he's ridiculing ignorant standards of homophobia negatively perpetuating rape culture - BOTH sides of it.
It's not mainly about rape, it's about the reaction to rape by ignorant men and women.
Anyway you're turning this into a men vs. women thing, so I'll respond in kind:
The fact of the matter is that women being raped is stagnant underneath all types of bigoted standards that are almost inescapable in society, whereas men being raped is not. Men being raped isn't talked about so much because it doesn't happen to this level. It happens, don't miscontrue what I'm saying, but it's not surrounded by horrible societal standards (e.g., what she wearing?; she probably deserved it; why'd she go out so late at night?; why didn't she take a cab instead of the subway?; etc.) that, ultimately, 1) hurt the victim 2) keep it from lessening in occurance and 3) perpetuate a mindset that humans would rather ridicule to avoid the actuality of it happening.
Regardless you can find it offensive, but you can't be indignant when women do as well; you as a male don't experience the type of high levels/endless amounts of victim-blaming standards society demands first and foremost from female victims of rape. If you haven't second-guessed your outfit while traveling at night, alone, frankly, you have no room to talk imo.
On the otherhand, you have all the right in the world to feel offended if you are part of the LGBT community or are a strong supporter of said community. That's the issue here, men being raped falls under it.
Nobody in the room had a problem with it. And not only that, the women in the audience cheered as soon as they heard the victims were men. Can you imagine in your wildest dreams all of the men in the room cheering for a joke about female rape?
Holy christ, they're not cheering because the victims were men are you serious?
If they weren't cheering for the reasons stated above, they're cheering because men are the butt (no pun intended) of the jokes for once. And if even not that, it's the fact that two guys kittening is hot to women (I'm not speaking for all women ofc, it's a stereotype that's prevalent in culture i.e., yaoi fangirls). They were being immature animals by cheering because the stigma of rape is still existant in sex, in terms of how society considers it. If its the most latter reason, they were in the wrong because rape isn't sex - no matter those involved.
So yeah, go ahead be offended, but you should concentrate on society stamping you with a homophobic badge just because you're male, and not because men are being joked about in rape situations as well. And while you're at it, find these so called ONLY women audience members and ask them if they were infact, cheering because they find two men in an act that is wrongfully reminiscent of sex arousing. If they were, judge them and go on your way.
Like we have, with the audience members of Mr. Tosh.
When you're done with that, come back to the point of the joke (i.e., homophobia in rape culture):
Chappelle even brought this point up later on, "it's not like when you women get raped" - it's because when women are raped, the seriousness of the situation isn't mitigated under ignorant standards of machismo. i.e., "OH BRO YOU WERE RAPED BY A DUDE? IT WOULD'VE BEEN OKAY IF IT WERE A CHICK YOU KNOW? SINCE IT'S NOT GAY."
tl;dr Chappelle is recognizing homophobia as the bigger, more ignorant issue that overshadows how serious rape is for men. Then thereafter juxtapositioning it with how serious rape is for women - society is victimizing male rape victims because they should "deal with it" because they're men, and not treat the situation for what it is, like women.
@can you imagine: Sure because misogyny is still here, everywhere. It's not hard to imagine - much less dream about it, it happens every day. Would be of waste of sleep to dream about such kitten that happens for every women alive no matter how much it's downplayed in our media, society, etc.
Oh hey it just happened, with Tosh. And hey we're angry about it because they're totally different unrelated things, so I don't get the point of what you're saying.
---
jesus this thread.
here's someone who handled the topic of rape way better (warning: language):
Point: Rape is placed on a scale of almost embarrassing ignorance equating to the mentality that of an infant (i.e., men rape because they just want to stick it in something, consequences be damned)
Joke: You'll have to go be an inhumane uncontrollable animal some other night, there's nothing for you to steal here (i.e., too bad, it's detachable. Sorry you stupid baby)
Response: Laughter, deservingly so. (i.e., it's funny because rapists are animals and should be treated as such)
Interests:Spending time with my husband and sons of course. Playing video games, drawing, writing fanfics, reading, watching crime shows, and paranormal shows.
Posted 20 July 2012 - 03:57 PM
Good gravy this thread is out of control I mean really? So much dissecting of one another's post is going to be never ending. Why cant everyone just agree to disagree? Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this so whats the point in trying to get others to see something they can't. I've read everything here, am I going to respond to every sign post, nope I'm not. Tis me throwing more gas on the already burning heap of a thread if I did. All I'm going to say is that I agree with Zac, James, and Pachuco. All everyone is doing is calling ppl out and making accusations about one another, wheres the love man
@joke: oh hey it wasn't. and it didn't have a punchline, try again.
Oh, hey, that wasn't the joke. That was a heckler being dealt with.
QUOTE
@my god: oh em gee my lord and savior, it's such an impossibly ~crazy world we live in when people get offended by such things like rape! When will these rape victims/women deal with it? Or when people just joke about it! It's not like their jokes don't perpetuate an already heavily deteriorating rape cuture that gets worse each day! C'mon guys, brush your emotional scars off and laugh at yourselves for once! Even though you're terrified by the very real threat of rape, each day, why don't you just see the humor in it! Fear is funny! We do it! (btw i have this friend who was a rape victim which validates my preaching about how rape jokes are harmless, dwi)
give me a break. If you're trying to make a joke about something there should be A) a point to it B) a punchline and C) a response
Tosh had one of the three above, can you guess which one?
All in all, I'm baffled by people being disappointed in people being offended by things like this. I don't want to live in a world where this kitten is allowed to run rampant (at least moreso than it already is) with no consequence in sight. Normalizing these types of things (e.g., rape; racism) gives way to more of it - it's not hard to understand.
No, crazy world we live in that people can be offended by such things as jokes. There have been jokes concerning racism, sexism, 9/11 and plane hijackings, bombings, shootings, police brutality, third world oppression, starvation, robbery, breaking and entering, drug sales and consumption, war, and political scandals. Bu, oh lawdy, as soon as someone starts joking about the rape of women, the whole world stops and offended women start coming out of the woodwork. Yeah, maybe female rape is more common. Although, as he said, maybe it's because most instances of male rape aren't reported. Or maybe it's just because male rape isn't taken nearly as seriously. And do you want to know what's far more common in men? Murder. Muggings. Homelessness. You know, other things jokes are regularly made about that seem to offend no one.
And I repeat, that wasn't the joke. The joke was what she rudely interrupted.
A stand-up comic referring the things like this is not "allowing it to run rampant with no consequence in sight." They are brought up specifically because they are terrible in real life, and twist it and poke fun at it. That's what comics do, and I'm sure you will find that most material from nearly any stand up comic follows the exact same format: things you ordinarily wouldn't laugh at in real life, twisted to give it a different perspective. Jokes do not normalize this. They draw awareness to it, and the very nature of the joke does not perpetuate it. I'm sure somewhere out there, some guy in that audience said to himself, "You know, I found this joke funny. Therefore, I should be one of the five men who will rape her later. That would be awesome!" Are you out of your mind?
QUOTE
@heckling: to heckle you have to have a predetermined mindset to interrupt the comedian to benefit yourself in terms of self-centered egocentrism. In some cases hecklers interrupt comedians because they're bored and/or drunk, in other cases they don't like the comedian himself/herself - this woman spoke up to call BS in his humor. Despite Tosh having a penchant for shock humor (wtf is this even, it's 2012) and her not being familiar with his shtick, she wasn't in the complete wrong for calling out his joke. It wasn't funny and she let him know, constructive criticism? Sure, but wrong place, wrong time. A wake-up call? Maybe. A waste of time? Definitely because Tosh seems the type to disregard those who aren't agreeable to his sense of humor (i.e., type of thinking) and in turn proves it, but that's just me.
Yeah, and her predetermined mindset to interrupt the comedian to benefit herself in terms of "self-centered egocentrism," which is a redundant phrase (but I'm sure a smart person like yourself knows that), was to shout her personal offense at rape jokes to try and turn the crowd against him. I don't care if you're offended. Save it til the show is over, don't ruin the experience for everyone else, and don't ruin it for him. If you interrupt his set, you deserve to be made an example of. You earned it. And you're right, he does disregard those who disagree with his sense of humor. Just like musicians disregard those who dislike their sound. You can't please everyone, and you shouldn't change who and what you are as a performer just because someone cries at a joke.
QUOTE
As tricksie stated before, this all could have been avoided if Tosh handled it better. If he wasn't so, idk a word you provided, ~butthurt about an audience member not loving everything he was spewing, he could have handled her interruption better. But he didn't and that's the problem here. A huge glaring problem because he didn't so much as throw a joke at her in her expense as per usual of a comedian during a performance, but instead threatened her with a sexual violent situation that is very realistic and viable just to get her to leave him alone (or in otherwords, pure freedom to hold an audience captive with more of his golden witticisms).
And as I said before, this performance was a gig for him. It's not an open forum for philanthropic discussion. Do not interrupt his set to satisfy your own bulls*** agenda. It's the same as yelling at a guitarist on stage "play Free Bird!" You're just asking for it. I'm not saying he couldn't have done better on the response, but she deserved to be called out. She deserved to be embarrassed. He did not threaten her with sexual violence. It, as you said, is a part of his schtick. And everyone else in that theater knew it, that's why they laughed. She didn't know. That's not his problem. Maybe she'll learn to keep her big trap shut next time.
QUOTE
It's not a joke, it's a full-out almost sociopathic threat. The threat therein being born from his indignation at someone considering him to be not as funny as he, personally, thinks he is. In fact, if he was so much in the right, why did he react the way he did? If what she said was so baseless, why did he handle it so badly?
Yes, it was a joke. It was not a threat. Do you seriously think he was saying, "Any five guys in this theater, please go over there and rape her for my amusement. That would be awesome." Really? You seriously think he was really threatening her? You seriously think he actually hoped for her to get raped because of her interruption?
QUOTE
Seriously if you're so sure of it being otherwise, tell me about the joke. Explain it to me because I don't get it.
Girl: "Actually rape jokes are nevery funny!"
Tosh: "Wouldn’t it be funny if [you] got raped by like, 5 guys right now? Like right now? What if a bunch of guys just raped [you]?"
How would it be funny, Pacheco?
It wouldn't. And that's the point. Apparently you have no idea how a schtick actually works. And really? You're going to flame? You're going to be a b*tch right now, is that what you're going to do? Eat me.
QUOTE
Who cares if she was a heckler? That's not the reason why there's so much outrage over what prompted Tosh to respond, it's the fact of what he said in response and how unwarranted it was.
And I repeat what I said before. Perhaps he could have said something better, more clever. But she chose to open her mouth. Whatever was to come, she was responsible for her own humiliation.
QUOTE
It's not like she completely shut down his performance. She didn't rip the mic from his hand, throw it out of reaching distance and continue to ridicule his sense of humor. She interrupted once, with a valid statement (this doesn't absolve her from her disruption ofc) - that's it.
Yeah, and she had no business attempting to. I don't care if it was a valid statement. It's not an open forum. It's not a conversation, or a discussion. She should have shut the hell up. You heckle, you're humiliated. That's how it works.
QUOTE
Her doing only that doesn't justify him to say the thing he said. You read what she wrote (or not w/e), she said she was terrified, shaken, completely uncomfortable by what he said and the fact that the audience supported it with vitriolic laughter. Sure they wouldn't wish rape on her, but they didn't see the problem in it possibly happening. The audience and Tosh equated this "joke" to something trivial enough to be laughed at, for their benefit - it reminds me of mob mentality.
Yeah. I did read what she wrote. And I don't feel sorry for her. She has no one to blame but herself. Everyone else in that audience laughed because they knew he wasn't serious, and it was just part of the shock humor. They understand his performance, they know him well enough by now. Most people do. She didn't. Her problem.
QUOTE
also if we're posting links, here's a good way to deal with a heckler (warning: language and sex anecdote):
Yeah, it is. Patton Oswlat, who is one of my favorite comedians of all time, is a veteran of the craft. And he has far more experience than Daniel Tosh. Some people are better at handling this sort of thing on the fly, and Patton Oswalt is one of the best. In fact, this is one of my favorite bits from him.
QUOTE
olawd i cant
The audience cheered because they were applauding him pointing out the fact that the prevalent homophobia in male individuals, and society in general, being raped trivializes the very serious fact that it happens and it's damaging - no matter your gender. You shouldn't find it offensive, you should be applauding with them - he's ridiculing ignorant standards of homophobia negatively perpetuating rape culture - BOTH sides of it.
It's not mainly about rape, it's about the reaction to rape by ignorant men and women.
Anyway you're turning this into a men vs. women thing, so I'll respond in kind:
The fact of the matter is that women being raped is stagnant underneath all types of bigoted standards that are almost inescapable in society, whereas men being raped is not. Men being raped isn't talked about so much because it doesn't happen to this level. It happens, don't miscontrue what I'm saying, but it's not surrounded by horrible societal standards (e.g., what she wearing?; she probably deserved it; why'd she go out so late at night?; why didn't she take a cab instead of the subway?; etc.) that, ultimately, 1) hurt the victim 2) keep it from lessening in occurance and 3) perpetuate a mindset that humans would rather ridicule to avoid the actuality of it happening.
Regardless you can find it offensive, but you can't be indignant when women do as well; you as a male don't experience the type of high levels/endless amounts of victim-blaming standards society demands first and foremost from female victims of rape. If you haven't second-guessed your outfit while traveling at night, alone, frankly, you have no room to talk imo.
On the otherhand, you have all the right in the world to feel offended if you are part of the LGBT community or are a strong supporter of said community. That's the issue here, men being raped falls under it.
The audience? Yeah, I think you should play that back and listen to how many of the audience members applauding had female voices, and which were the loudest. Prevalent homophobia? You think men will not report rape out of prevalent homophobia? Wow, you are naive. No, it's out of embarrassment and gender roles. It's about the fact that society does not care about male rape, and don't treat it nearly as seriously. Women have it so firmly in their minds that this rape culture is common place, that it is supported in every male mind. I defy you to go out on the street, find any man, any stranger who will never see you again and doesn't care about your opinion, and see if you can coax a "what was she wearing?" out of him. Hell, find some friends of friends behind closed doors and ask them that question, or show them the story of a rape, and I seriously doubt you will get that reaction. And not only is that not the case, women perpetuating the false accusation that it is is precisely why so many men are afraid to be alone with a woman in an elevator, or to have sex with women they don't know too well, or to have a female caterer deliver to their hotel room. Because all she has to do is cry rape, and his reputation and life are destroyed for the foreseeable future. Women will NEVER face the high amount of supposed assailant assumptions that men do. Not in a million years. But, of course, we're not supposed to feel bad for them. Not even if they are innocent. After all, they are men. It's only natural to assume they're guilty.
QUOTE
Holy christ, they're not cheering because the victims were men are you serious?
If they weren't cheering for the reasons stated above, they're cheering because men are the butt (no pun intended) of the jokes for once. And if even not that, it's the fact that two guys kittening is hot to women (I'm not speaking for all women ofc, it's a stereotype that's prevalent in culture i.e., yaoi fangirls). They were being immature animals by cheering because the stigma of rape is still existant in sex, in terms of how society considers it. If its the most latter reason, they were in the wrong because rape isn't sex - no matter those involved.
So yeah, go ahead be offended, but you should concentrate on society stamping you with a homophobic badge just because you're male, and not because men are being joked about in rape situations as well. And while you're at it, find these so called ONLY women audience members and ask them if they were infact, cheering because they find two men in an act that is wrongfully reminiscent of sex arousing. If they were, judge them and go on your way.
Like we have, with the audience members of Mr. Tosh.
When you're done with that, come back to the point of the joke (i.e., homophobia in rape culture):
Chappelle even brought this point up later on, "it's not like when you women get raped" - it's because when women are raped, the seriousness of the situation isn't mitigated under ignorant standards of machismo. i.e., "OH BRO YOU WERE RAPED BY A DUDE? IT WOULD'VE BEEN OKAY IF IT WERE A CHICK YOU KNOW? SINCE IT'S NOT GAY."
tl;dr Chappelle is recognizing homophobia as the bigger, more ignorant issue that overshadows how serious rape is for men. Then thereafter juxtapositioning it with how serious rape is for women - society is victimizing male rape victims because they should "deal with it" because they're men, and not treat the situation for what it is, like women.
FOR ONCE? Are you out of your mind? Most of the time, when matters of gender or sex are brought up, it is men who are the butt of the joke. Absolutely always from female comedians, and the topic seems to be extremely common for them, and most of the time from male comics. And let's not forget sitcoms. Movies. Commercials. In all of which men are made to look like buffoons, immature children troubling the grown women of their lives. For once? Get serious.
You are a fool. I can't believe you're even bringing up homophobia. Not one word in that act, at all, mentioned or suggested anything about homophobia. And if you think that's the reason why they are embarrassed, then you are naive and narrow-minded. To you, even the things that embarrass a man differently than a woman are men's fault.
This was a joke directly about men being raped, how society doesn't care about it, and how gender roles as viewed by society on both sides of the fence make them reluctant to report it. You will never hear a joke told on stage, as a part of a written and rehearsed act, in the exact same context with women instead of men. Never. That will end the career of any comedian. You really think that it's all mens' fault that they don't "stand up for themselves and seek justice?" You really think it's all in men's heads that gender roles do not result in their humiliation or villainization? I suggest you take a look at this:
QUOTE
@can you imagine: Sure because misogyny is still here, everywhere. It's not hard to imagine - much less dream about it, it happens every day. Would be of waste of sleep to dream about such kitten that happens for every women alive no matter how much it's downplayed in our media, society, etc.
Oh hey it just happened, with Tosh. And hey we're angry about it because they're totally different unrelated things, so I don't get the point of what you're saying.
Yeah, and misandry is much more common. So much so that this browser doesn't even recognize the word. You would not hear an uproar of male laughter and applause at a joke directly condoning the rape of women, or that no one cares about it. Most men know full well that they would be crucified by the women in their lives for doing so, and by way of social conditioning, the thought wouldn't even occur to most of them. And until you hear the actual joke that was told before she opened her mouth, you have no business claiming that it was anything like that. A group of women would have absolutely no problem with laughing at such a thing, because they are so sure of their status as victims in this society and are out for a little "the shoe is on the other foot now" retribution. With the Chappelle example, though, it was exactly that. And most of the laughter came from women.
QUOTE
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jesus this thread.
here's someone who handled the topic of rape way better (warning: language):
Of course you would say that, especially because it is a woman telling it in favor of the idea that women, and only women, are victims. And just by saying what she's saying, she's implying that all men care about is one thing, and everything else is a means to an end. It implies that all men are potential rapists or child molesters. And that perpetuated idea is why this happens (starting at 5:22):
QUOTE
Point: Rape is placed on a scale of almost embarrassing ignorance equating to the mentality that of an infant (i.e., men rape because they just want to stick it in something, consequences be damned)
Joke: You'll have to go be an inhumane uncontrollable animal some other night, there's nothing for you to steal here (i.e., too bad, it's detachable. Sorry you stupid baby)
Response: Laughter, deservingly so. (i.e., it's funny because rapists are animals and should be treated as such)
Of course. Because only men are rapists. Only men do this. And therefore, only men deserve to be called out for it so women in the audience can laugh and cheer.
Edited by PachucoDesigns, 20 July 2012 - 05:46 PM.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.
Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.
I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.
Good gravy this thread is out of control I mean really? So much dissecting of one another's post is going to be never ending. Why cant everyone just agree to disagree? Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this so whats the point in trying to get others to see something they can't. I've read everything here, am I going to respond to every sign post, nope I'm not. Tis me throwing more gas on the already burning heap of a thread if I did. All I'm going to say is that I agree with Zac, James, and Pachuco. All everyone is doing is calling ppl out and making accusations about one another, wheres the love man
That's just how discussion forums are, and I don't agree that we should be making accusations about people's character based on this, but we tend to do that when we meet viewpoints very different from our own and both sides have done it, including those people who you agree with. Yet, I don't agree with the idea that whenever heavy topics come up, people should just agree to disagree. Sometimes, and this is sort of where that "calling people out" comes from, we can't imagine that decent human beings according to our own value system, could make such remarks and we want to understand where such toxic thinking comes from. If we were going that route, why did you and others post and reply on a topic that was in favour of being upset with Tosh? Probably because you didn't understand where we who are upset with it are coming from and wanted to add your two cents to it. That's how discussions work, and the agreement to disagree comes when you can tell the individuals are so wrapped up in their own viewpoints that they refuse to so much budge from their line of thinking and concede even a little to any sort of logic in favour of the other.
Though, in regards to this topic and when you say you agree, it's really, really hard for me not to judge character when someone is okay with me saying this:
Wouldn't it be funny, Konohakitten, if you got raped right now, by five guys, after posting on this topic about rape? Wouldn't that be hilariously ironic?
The problem is it has a specific target, herein YOU, I am implying I would enjoy the thought of you getting raped for irony's sake, and I expect everyone else to take it the same way. If it is a joke, it's a bad one, and adding to it or substituting you with anyone else like your mother, your father, your best friend, your cat, potentially makes it worse or, I dunno... It's just not right. For a supposed professional comedian, he made an unfunny and yeah, how can you NOT see how people would be offended?
This isn't a topic about preferring vanilla to chocolate, this is about rape culture, an individual's well being vs people's right to laugh at something as a joke, what is right to laugh at and how comedians should handle those topics and people who do get offended. There are some topics worth fighting for because silence would imply we approve, and if someone is willing to put up their opinion then they should expect people to reply with their own, right?
Edit:
@Pachuchu I think you need to tone it down and show a little sympathy on both sides. I can see you obviously have a passion for comedy, but is it so hard to believe that someone might dislike the way he handled it? Not everyone shares the same humour, and not everyone thinks that way.
I know that misandry and men are targeted and their social issues are downplayed men and women alike. Jokes are offensive and whether or not it is right they are so offensive is another topic, but are you so callous toward an individual that for standing up and saying something--as much as I don't agree she should have--that you think she deserves to be put down in such a way? I think interrupting a show vs having someone tell you it would be funny if you were raped, having the entire audience laugh which is psychologically an implicit agreement that such an idea IS hilarious, does not hold the same weight. He could have just told her to leave and told her it was rude/dumb of her to interrupt his show and ask her why she attended it if she didn't know what it was. He handled it badly and not everyone agrees what he said is a joke to begin with. As I did with Konohakitten, it would be like me saying "Hey, you know what, it would be funny if you got raped, Pachuco, for all your talk about supporting it. I wonder if you'd change your tune--actually considering what might be shoved down your throat, you probably would ;D"
Maybe you'd take it in stride--I mean I'm not really saying I want you to, but in the moment, in that kind of antagonistic tone and with so many people supporting my statement with laughter, is it hard to imagine that you'd have a negative reaction to it? Is my statement really warranted just because you happened to say something I didn't like and potentially pissed me off?
I don't know. I can see where you're coming from that there is context, setting and intention to look at, and like I said I don't agree the choice that she made, but I don't think the punishment matched the crime, you know? Tosh did apologize, and maybe he was just caught up in the heat of the moment too--but I think we do have to realize he did something inappropriate.
Edited by Broken Figurine, 20 July 2012 - 06:12 PM.
@Pachuchu I think you need to tone it down and show a little sympathy on both sides. I can see you obviously have a passion for comedy, but is it so hard to believe that someone might dislike the way he handled it? Not everyone shares the same humour, and not everyone thinks that way.
I know that misandry and men are targeted and their social issues are downplayed men and women alike. Jokes are offensive and whether or not it is right they are so offensive is another topic, but are you so callous toward an individual that for standing up and saying something--as much as I don't agree she should have--that you think she deserves to be put down in such a way? I think interrupting a show vs having someone tell you it would be funny if you were raped, having the entire audience laugh which is psychologically an implicit agreement that such an idea IS hilarious, does not hold the same weight. He could have just told her to leave and told her it was rude/dumb of her to interrupt his show and ask her why she attended it if she didn't know what it was. He handled it badly and not everyone agrees what he said is a joke to begin with. As I did with Konohakitten, it would be like me saying "Hey, you know what, it would be funny if you got raped, Pachuco, for all your talk about supporting it. I wonder if you'd change your tune--actually considering what might be shoved down your throat, you probably would ;D"
Maybe you'd take it in stride--I mean I'm not really saying I want you to, but in the moment, in that kind of antagonistic tone and with so many people supporting my statement with laughter, is it hard to imagine that you'd have a negative reaction to it? Is my statement really warranted just because you happened to say something I didn't like and potentially pissed me off?
I don't know. I can see where you're coming from that there is context, setting and intention to look at, and like I said I don't agree the choice that she made, but I don't think the punishment matched the crime, you know? Tosh did apologize, and maybe he was just caught up in the heat of the moment too--but I think we do have to realize he did something inappropriate.
I don't understand you people. It is Pachuco. PA-CHU-CO. ^^^^^^^^^ Are you seriously doing this just to make fun of me? Because it's lame.
There are two things I have a passion for. One is comedy. The other is equal right, including men's rights that are severely trumped at the assault of feminism.
Do I believe Tosh should have said something different? Sure. But on stage, when you have to improvise on the fly with ridiculous people like her, mistakes can be made. Some are better at handling it than others. Point is, most people in that audience knew he wasn't serious. But since she raised such a stink, we now have to hear about it every ten seconds. If I heckled, and if I got called out and joked about for it, then I would know damn well that I had it coming. I've had some of my friends joke about rape with me as the subject before. I laughed, then retorted. What I did not do is cry and run away, because I know that they aren't serious. If she has such delicate sensibilities, then she needs to stay out of comedy clubs. None of this "put yourself in her shoes" nonsense is going to work on me, because going into a comedy club (as I often do), I understand that there are going to be controversial, potentially offensive topics. And I also know how to take a joke, even if it is over a topic that should offend me. The reason why she was offended by what he said is because she was already offended by the topic in the first place. I wouldn't heckle, because I would know he wasn't serious.
Like I said, I do think his reply could have been better. But some comics are not as good at dealing with hecklers as others. And I doubt he really thought that it would offend at the time, he was just trying to think on his feet. You don't say "excuse me, it's rude of you to interrupt, could you please leave" as a comic, because it is detrimental to the performance itself. It takes away from the comedic vibe that has already been built, so you use that person's rude statement to keep momentum. Did he do it wrong? Perhaps. But she's much more at fault here, for not knowing how to shut the hell up and for not knowing how to set aside seriousness.
Edited by PachucoDesigns, 20 July 2012 - 07:04 PM.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.
Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.
I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.
Interests:Spending time with my husband and sons of course. Playing video games, drawing, writing fanfics, reading, watching crime shows, and paranormal shows.
Though, in regards to this topic and when you say you agree, it's really, really hard for me not to judge character when someone is okay with me saying this:
Wouldn't it be funny, Konohakitten, if you got raped right now, by five guys, after posting on this topic about rape? Wouldn't that be hilariously ironic?
The problem is it has a specific target, herein YOU, I am implying I would enjoy the thought of you getting raped for irony's sake, and I expect everyone else to take it the same way. If it is a joke, it's a bad one, and adding to it or substituting you with anyone else like your mother, your father, your best friend, your cat, potentially makes it worse or, I dunno... It's just not right. For a supposed professional comedian, he made an unfunny and yeah, how can you NOT see how people would be offended?
Sorry its hard for you to not judge me by what I believe in but I'm entitled to my opinion so judge away As for your statement about me being rapped by five guys I could careless I'm not butt hurt. Hell lets make it six, five guys makes me think of burgers. Now if it really did happen (my bad for not defending my self since I know how) it would be ironic, but kitten happens, it has to me before I know all to well. However I wouldn't let it get to me regardless if it really did happened or not, been there done that. Then again that's the type of person I am, I dont let anything get to me.
Now that I think of it I guess my problem with this topic is that ppl "do" get offended. That's what gets to me so thanks for pointing that out, seriously I'm not being sarcastic. To me I see discussions like this as pointless. It starts off as one thing and ends off on some tangent that becomes about feminism, ignorance, rape culture (which I had never heard of) and blah blah blah.
So yeah mamma's done here I see everyones point, I really do even if I dont agree with some of you ;D
I don't understand you people. It is Pachuco. PA-CHU-CO. Are you seriously doing this just to make fun of me? Because it's lame.
There are two things I have a passion for. One is comedy. The other is equal right, including men's rights that are severely trumped at the assault of feminism.
Do I believe Tosh should have said something different? Sure. But on stage, when you have to improvise on the fly with ridiculous people like her, mistakes can be made. Some are better at handling it than others. Point is, most people in that audience knew he wasn't serious. But since she raised such a stink, we now have to hear about it every ten seconds. If I heckled, and if I got called out and joked about for it, then I would know damn well that I had it coming. I've had some of my friends joke about rape with me as the subject before. I laughed, then retorted. What I did not do is cry and run away, because I know that they aren't serious. If she has such delicate sensibilities, then she needs to stay out of comedy clubs. None of this "put yourself in her shoes" nonsense is going to work on me, because going into a comedy club (as I often do), I understand that there are going to be controversial, potentially offensive topics. And I also know how to take a joke, even if it is over a topic that should offend me. The reason why she was offended by what he said is because she was already offended by the topic in the first place. I wouldn't heckle, because I would know he wasn't serious.
Like I said, I do think his reply could have been better. But some comics are not as good at dealing with hecklers as others. And I doubt he really thought that it would offend at the time, he was just trying to think on his feet. You don't say "excuse me, it's rude of you to interrupt, could you please leave" as a comic, because it is detrimental to the performance itself. It takes away from the comedic vibe that has already been built, so you use that person's rude statement to keep momentum. Did he do it wrong? Perhaps. But she's much more at fault here, for not knowing how to shut the hell up and for not knowing how to set aside seriousness.
Oh my goodness I'm sorry XD I had looked up to see if I had misspelled your name and ended up making a typo. I know you're not Pachuchu <-- Don't ask how I got that I don't even know. Pachuco--I spelled it right the second time I used it!
Put yourself in her shoes isn't so much nonsense as it is empathy which is a pretty big part of equal rights, and a way of humility too. We can agree of the possibility that Tosh made a mistake on the fly in replying to her, and so can we give the girl a bit of leniency too? We don't know the full of her situation and mindset. Maybe she was there because her friends dragged her to it, maybe she had something in her past that made her specifically offended toward this because we ALL have our trigger points. She didn't handle it the way I would have--but who knows, maybe I would if it was another context. Maybe if I was there I would have protested his response and I'm sure people would be upset with me. Do I think he really, honestly wanted her to be raped, no, I don't think so, but I he acted in the heat of the moment and forgot to empathize with her concern, and in his position of power as a performer acted within his role. Things get screwy, but he did say something offensive and wrong in his response because the "joke" had a purpose other than comedic effect: to humiliate, demoralize and demean another individual and he used the topic of rape as a vehicle for it.
If you take a little more time to consider both perspectives and empathize with both situations, you can see how the mistakes are made, but in this case there was a victim and that was the woman because more damage was directed toward her. She interrupted his show which is yes, annoying, but she was humiliated in such a distasteful way and it has a bad effect on a person and so people side with her for the implications of the "joke" (I still think it was a really bad joke/response that's pretty unfunny, I don't know if you got a laugh but I didn't) that he could direct it toward her, make her self-identify with the idea of being raped, and then have a tacit agreement around her that the image is funny and nobody would care if she was, even worse, enjoy it. If she had time to think about it objectively, maybe she wouldn't have felt as shaken as she did, but when you're in the middle of that experiencing that humilation, it's hard to look at things like that. We call it the Hindsight Bias--it's easier to look back and think of what you should have/would have/could have done in the situation, but when you take feelings and automatic responses people act like that. In hindsight, she's probably thinking she should have never gotten up. In hindsight, he's thinking he should have said something differently (if his apology is anything to go by), but in the heat of the moment, we can make costly decisions. In the moment she felt terrible, and in the moment he acted terribly. Did she deserve it? I don't think so. Does he deserved to be pinned as an awful human being for this one instance? No, and he did apologize afterwards.
I personally don't like his brand of comedy--I do like comedy, I just don't think he's particularly funny--so maybe because I'm not his fan I am a little more inclined to side with the person who was humiliated because I feel more bad for her than I do him. I'm just the kind of person who doesn't like seeing people hurt, and it's not because I'm easily offended I just empathize with people more. Maybe you like the performer better and have less of an opinion of people who are sensitive--I may not agree with that, but at least I can see where you're coming from. This is me, putting myself in your position. Is that nonsense?
I also find it funny because feminism is supposed to be by its definition equality between genders, but if so it's so misnamed because the name evokes a female association. I try thinking of another name for it--sex equality? It's perhaps put that way because women have socially and historically been the ones given the shorter end of the stick, so there is an emphasis on bringing women up "to a man's level" of rights. Thus, someone who says that they are an equal rights person like you say, which is contradictory, say you don't like feminism (which is supposed to be equality between the sexes). This is getting off topic because I don't believe the issue is a men vs woman thing (I'd be just as offended if this was a female performer saying the same thing to a male heckler). The thing is, femininity IS usually seen as inferior, and femininity isn't an exclusively female thing. Femininity is whatever society ascribes is the female role, so a man wearing a skirt is seen as feminine, and this is bad because being feminine is inferior, because it is an affront to masculinity. Thus, the issue I have with the hypocritical feminists is that they celebrate when women take on the masculine roles in the expense of men. Like the What Would You Do video you posted, people see the woman in the role of the abuser as acting strong and acting out against the oppressive force that is the male, who probably deserves it, right?
-rolls eyes- That's the problem with the more popularized version of feminism. It's not about men AND women, it's still men vs women. It's about women claiming the superiority that men have, instead of acknowledging that the notion of making things masculine and feminine by itself is just detrimental to both. Why should something objective, like cooking, be seen as feminine? Why should rape mean something different if it is a male or female victim/abuser? Isn't it just non-consensual sex? That all comes back to the notion of masculine superiority verses feminine inferiority which has shaped our notions that men only want one thing: power and sex. It is masculine to be a rapist--implying men are rapists because men are the aggressive party, and if you're a male who is being raped, you're the passive party and in the female position. It's so bad on both sides of the coin, and it's only when we learn to again, empathize with the issues surrounding both sexes and look in-depth at the progression of these issues can we understand it.
I don't understand you people. It is Pachuco. PA-CHU-CO. ^^^^^^^^^ Are you seriously doing this just to make fun of me? Because it's lame.
No, I'm not trying to make fun of you. I have made that mistake several times (I guess this is the first time you saw it) because the first time I read your name I read it wrong.
My response was kinda glib, but I'm not so lazy or cheap to pick on people because of user names.
At this point, I do not have time to continue to monitor this thread all afternoon. I'm starting to see personal insults fly and with no other mod available besides me right now, I am going to close this thread until I and others mod have time to review it further detail and decide what we want to do with this.
Interests:Animanga, Art, Books, Gaming, Web Design.(Yes, I am a geek and proud of it)
Posted 22 July 2012 - 10:04 AM
After some discussion between Nate and myself, we have decided to re-open this thread once more. This will be the last chance; any sign of further trouble and this thread will be permanently locked.
We understand that this is a very sensitive topic that polarises opinion, however we are very disappointed that some of you have chosen to lose your tempers and insult each other. In a debate, we expect maturity and reason. If you cannot agree, simply agree to disagree and leave it at that. If you cannot respond without making insulting comments, then don't post. Just step outside the thread, take deep breaths and calm down. Stay away from the thread if you have to.
Sometimes, it's better to walk away than get involved in an ugly fight.
Because we recognise that this is a sensitive issue, and we understand that tempers may fray over it, we will not be handing out warnings to people at this time. However, if anyone persists in offensive behaviour or attempting to bait others, we WILL hand that person an official warning, and a temporary ban is very likely as well. This is because several of the members involved in this mess are older members (in age and/or time spent here) who should know how to conduct themselves with maturity and respect the rules and each other.
So, if you wish to debate, do so calmly and with reason. Treat each other with respect.
Interests:Narusaku, cosplay, writing fanfiction, dollfies, Japanese history. literature and culture, linguistics, ancient Celtic history, literature, and culture, Wicca, women's history, Buffy and Spike, Rogue and Gambit, Miaka and Taka, John Lennon and Yoko Ono, sewing, reading, many shoujo and josei manga series, Star Trek, Star Wars, liberal and feminist activism
I'm sorry, but you actually mean to tell me that you see these things as sexual assault? Really? To people who are not overly sensitive and just searching for a reason to be combative and cry foul, for people who aren't trying to be offended at every turn, these are harmless pranks. Annoying at the very worst. Did you see the look on those women's faces? Some smiled and thought it was funny, some just saw it as playful antics, and some were merely mildly annoyed and went back about their business. Not one of them seemed to be violated and in tears. God forbid anyone should pat a woman's shoulder without her consent, or walk on the same side of the sidewalk as her, or breathe the same air as her. I say what I said before: it is women who share the same opinion as you that make many men terrified to be alone with a woman in a car, or in an elevator, or anywhere remotely near a hotel room. Because all she has to do is cry rape, and his life will be destroyed for years to come. And those kids, do you really think either of them felt like they were being raped? Yeah, sure, a prank that went too far, perhaps. Stupid pretenders of Jackass at the most, an attempt to embarrass and nothing more. Or, are you incapable of imagining what sodomy actually entails?
Edited by PachucoDesigns, 22 July 2012 - 01:23 PM.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.
Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.
I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.
After some discussion between Nate and myself, we have decided to re-open this thread once more. This will be the last chance; any sign of further trouble and this thread will be permanently locked.
We understand that this is a very sensitive topic that polarises opinion, however we are very disappointed that some of you have chosen to lose your tempers and insult each other. In a debate, we expect maturity and reason. If you cannot agree, simply agree to disagree and leave it at that. If you cannot respond without making insulting comments, then don't post. Just step outside the thread, take deep breaths and calm down. Stay away from the thread if you have to.
Sometimes, it's better to walk away than get involved in an ugly fight.
Because we recognise that this is a sensitive issue, and we understand that tempers may fray over it, we will not be handing out warnings to people at this time. However, if anyone persists in offensive behaviour or attempting to bait others, we WILL hand that person an official warning, and a temporary ban is very likely as well. This is because several of the members involved in this mess are older members (in age and/or time spent here) who should know how to conduct themselves with maturity and respect the rules and each other.
So, if you wish to debate, do so calmly and with reason. Treat each other with respect.
We just had this thread shut down because the discussion was getting heated and people were starting to use personal insult the first thing you do is post things that serve no meaningful purpose other than to bait others?
This topic is locked
