Yet the exact opposite could be true, but you ignore that and tell me that it’s irrelevant, meanwhile placing faith in someone that wasn’t there and another that was confirmed trying to manipulate Sasuke. Okay.
You fail to recognize that I never I outright said that I believed in what Obito said, however I made it clear that there is a lack of information regarding what happened and either version could be the true one... while you, on the other hand, obviously favors the Tobirama version and still keeps saying that Obito was just lying despite the fact that there is no clear confirmation that he was indeed lying in the manga
Tobirama never said that he didn’t put spies in the Uchiha, but there is zero evidence to suggest that he did either.
Obito's words say that he did it, it would also fit Tobirama's character and personality, Tobirama also never outright denied the fact
However is is still a foggy aspect because it lacks clarification, so we can't say for sure that he was spying and we also can't say that he wasn't spying, you get me?
Either way, though this is irrelevant to the fact that it was Tobirama's actions disregarding the motive, that started the revolution talk within the clan
Talking about Orochimaru is fine, but you’re taking what happened as if the result was the intention of Tobirama. He did not do wrong by the Uchiha, whatever Orochimaru says regarding the outcome is irrelevant. He didn’t do anything that caused the Uchiha strife, other than giving them power that wasn’t enough, which Orochimaru alluded to, and you ignore.
C'mon, I never said that Tobirama's intention was to actively make the Uchiha hate konoha, what he did was just a bad decision as a leader that's all, as I said the motive for his decision isn't really clear, nevertheless it was still a bad decision that backfired spectacularly because it ended up separating the Uchiha from Konoha and making the Madara sympathizers stronger within the clan
Orochimaru just said that people with authority tended to become conceited and that together with the disrespect from the villagers and the segregration ended up starting the revolution talks within the Uchiha, ultimately it all boils down to the fact that all of this happened because Tobirama made the Uchiha into the police force for whatever reason, thus he deserves to receive part of the blame for what happened afterwards since everything fundamentally started with his decisions
I’m not delegitimizing anything, only your attempts at trying to demonize Tobirama without due cause other than the words of someone who was lying and someone who wasn’t actually there to see the situation unfold himself.
Where did you get this? Not once in the manga it was actually said that Obito was lying, Tobirama never actually confirmed or denied if he had spies on them, the secrets of the past of the Uchiha could've gotten to Obito in another way, remember that he was Madara's pupil. So I would like you to stop creating manga facts to further your own biased views
And I will say it once again, we don't know if Tobirama had spies or not, it's not a confirmed fact and while what Obito said is dubious, what Tobirama said could also be ( for example he could just be trying to save face in front of his brother), we will never know the true truth because Kishi never really clarified this backstory, i's the same thing with the Uchiha involvement in the Kyuubi attack
Also, as I said before the motive really doesn't matter, what matters is that Tobirama's decision was what spurned everything to happen, it was a bad decision, he might have had somewhat good intentions or whatever, it was badly executed and ultimately it lead to the Uchiha Madara faction within the clan gaining strength while before they were relatively weaker
As for your facts, theyre laughable. Tobirama didn’t hate the Uchiha, his best subordinate was an Uchiha himself. He hated Madara. Swelled pride on the part of the Uchiha isn’t his fault, and he did not under any circumstance segregate them. Madara’s supporters strengthened because Tobirama didn’t hand them enough power, that’s not his fault.
> "Tobirama didn't hate the Uchiha"
A few chapters before the scene where Orochimaru explains what started the revolution talk within the clan we have a flashback of Hashirama where it shows that Tobirama had some kind of prejudice against the Uchiha, so your sentence is objectively false, he might not actively hate them but he ceratinly has a overall dislike for them which is understandable given his past but at the same time a really bad aspect for the leader of a village
One of his best subordinates was an Uchiha...and?
This doesn't realy matter, and it doesn't change that Tobirama's decision was the one decision that started everything and that he is to blame for it
>"He did not segregrate them"
Man, just read the chapter again, smfh
it's on the chapter, why are you acting as if it didn't happen? You're making no sense, you're letting your bias get in the way of your reasoning
>"Madara's supporters gained strenght because they didn't got enough power"
No, they gainded strenght because the Uchiha were not happy with their situation during Tobirama's rule, not only they were relegated to the poilce but they ended up segregrated and disliked by the villagers in general, the situation made them become more conceited which lead to Madara's supporters gaining power
Now, if you remember well this didn't happen during Hashirama's rule, in fact the Uchiha outright refused to accompany Madara's on his quest for world rule and power so really power isn't the reason here, the reason is just simple insatisfaction, regret and wounded pride.
If you remember after Orochimaru explained why the Uchiha began rebelling, Hashirama immediately afterwards jumped at Tobirama because he had adivised him against persecuting the Uchiha...it doesn't say too much for your "Tobirama didn't do anything wrong" point of view when even characters in the story interpret what Orochimaru said as Tobirama having the initial blame on the tragedy that was the massacre
our evidence is anything but concrete. Tobirama didn’t cause anything, the cause was the Uchiha wanting more power and Obito attacking the leaf. I love that just because I don’t agree with you, I’m biased. Truly lol worthy.
I'm based on the manga, while you're based off on your own bias, granted... the manga is a mess and that is why we're having this discussion in the first place.
You're biased because you continue to deny that Tobirama didn't had any kind of blame while I already proved with manga panels, facts and arguments that he had, his motives for executing his decision notwithstanding because it's a hard thing to pinpoint due to Kishi's incompetency as a writer
Just take a look, you're the only one in this thread still arguing that Tobirama doesn't have any kind of blame, most other members have already reached the conclusion that the massacre was a shared blame between Konoha and the Uchiha, with everything starting due to Tobirama's decisions
And once again, "the Uchihas wanting more power" as the motive for the Madara's supporters gaining strenght doesn't make any sense because a few years before the Uchihas were fine and actually refused Madara's plan, however something changed after |Tobirama's rule because of his decisions, he ended up segregrating them, wounding their pride and making a general dislike of them in the village, this was what made the Uchihas side more and more with the few Madara sympathizers
Edited by Nar123, 30 July 2015 - 01:10 AM.