159 replies to this topic

[Transformers03]

Here's one: to see Tsunade admit that she loved Jiraiya. I doubt it will happen, if for nothing else that it will depreciate the value of Dan, but one can hope.

If people really want to use them as a valid parallel for NaruSaku, that's what needs to happen.

I agree that Tsunade needs to admit that she did loved Jiraiya for us to use it as a valid parallel for Narusaku, but the parallel between the sanin and Team 7 is still there. You can't deny that there is a parallel between them, heck all three members of Team 7 were trained by each of the three sanin (Naruto/Jiraiya, Sasuke/Orochumaru, Sakura/Tsunade). Not only that, but their personalities matched up with the respective sanin they were trained under. Both Naruto and Jiraiya were perverted, but both wanted to bring peace to the shinobi world. Both Sasuke and Orochumaru suffered from personal tragedy, and decided to abandon their village and friends for a darker path. Both Sakura and Tsunade are medical ninjas, and are tsundre(?) archetypes.

If all those characters have that much in common with each other, then is it by coincidence that Kishi wrote Jaraiya and Tsunade's relationship similar to that of Naruto and Sakura's? That the guy loves the girl, but the girl doesn't seem to like them back, though it is 'implied' that the girl may have fallen for the guy. But in Jaraiya's case, he never got with Tsunade, something he regretted when he died. And if one of the morals is that the new generation will surpass the previous generation, then wouldn't it not be hard to believe that Naruto may surpass where Jariaya failed?

I know this has been said before, but I'm just trying to make a point. The parallel is OBVIOUSLY there, it's just the fact that Jariaya and Tsunade never got together, or the fact that Tsunade never admitted she loved Jariaya (even though they have implied it), is the reason why people are saying that the parallel doesn't exist, nor does it mean Narusaku will happen.

[KnS]

I have a theory that Kakashi had someone put him under a genjutsu in which he had to relive Obito's death.

Hmm. Interesting. Would that actually work?

Zetsu didn't regrow Deidara arm, Kakuzu reattached it.

Really? Wow. I don't remember that at all. Thanks for setting me straight.

[PachucoDesigns]

I agree that Tsunade needs to admit that she did loved Jiraiya for us to use it as a valid parallel for Narusaku, but the parallel between the sanin and Team 7 is still there. You can't deny that there is a parallel between them, heck all three members of Team 7 were trained by each of the three sanin (Naruto/Jiraiya, Sasuke/Orochumaru, Sakura/Tsunade). Not only that, but their personalities matched up with the respective sanin they were trained under. Both Naruto and Jiraiya were perverted, but both wanted to bring peace to the shinobi world. Both Sasuke and Orochumaru suffered from personal tragedy, and decided to abandon their village and friends for a darker path. Both Sakura and Tsunade are medical ninjas, and are tsundre(?) archetypes.

If all those characters have that much in common with each other, then is it by coincidence that Kishi wrote Jaraiya and Tsunade's relationship similar to that of Naruto and Sakura's? That the guy loves the girl, but the girl doesn't seem to like them back, though it is 'implied' that the girl may have fallen for the guy. But in Jaraiya's case, he never got with Tsunade, something he regretted when he died. And if one of the morals is that the new generation will surpass the previous generation, then wouldn't it not be hard to believe that Naruto may surpass where Jariaya failed?

I know this has been said before, but I'm just trying to make a point. The parallel is OBVIOUSLY there, it's just the fact that Jariaya and Tsunade never got together, or the fact that Tsunade never admitted she loved Jariaya (even though they have implied it), is the reason why people are saying that the parallel doesn't exist, nor does it mean Narusaku will happen.

Yeah, the parallel between Team 7 and the Sanin is there. That much is obvious. All I'm saying is that until Tsunade admits her love for Jiraiya, it lends absolutely nothing to a pairing prediction for NS. But it does go to show that the connection between Sakura and Tsunade is the weakest, based only on technique and archetype and nothing to do with their life experiences. Also, I'm really getting tired of the word "Tsundere." It's given so much significance when it really doesn't deserve that much attention.

The problem here is that if it runs directly parallel, that would mean that Naruto is basically doomed to continue after her and to never receive her love in return. Only if that parallel is broken on both Naruto's side and Sakura's side does the pairing happen, which basically makes the parallel a compeltely useless observation. Implication is really not enough to establish fact, and a parallel drawn between one implication and another is a weak one. Only when Tsunade finally admits it can we draw that parallel meaningfully. Ideally, she would admit it to Sakura and warn her not to make the same mistake she did, to recognize Naruto for the great guy he is while they are still young and live the happy life she never could.

[Transformers03]

Yeah, the parallel between Team 7 and the Sanin is there. That much is obvious. All I'm saying is that until Tsunade admits her love for Jiraiya, it lends absolutely nothing to a pairing prediction for NS. But it does go to show that the connection between Sakura and Tsunade is the weakest, based only on technique and archetype and nothing to do with their life experiences. Also, I'm really getting tired of the word "Tsundere." It's given so much significance when it really doesn't deserve that much attention.

The problem here is that if it runs directly parallel, that would mean that Naruto is basically doomed to continue after her and to never receive her love in return. Only if that parallel is broken on both Naruto's side and Sakura's side does the pairing happen, which basically makes the parallel a compeltely useless observation. Implication is really not enough to establish fact, and a parallel drawn between one implication and another is a weak one. Only when Tsunade finally admits it can we draw that parallel meaningfully. Ideally, she would admit it to Sakura and warn her not to make the same mistake she did, to recognize Naruto for the great guy he is while they are still young and live the happy life she never could.

I agree with most of what you said, but I never said it was a DIRECT parallel (I don't want Naruto to have the same regrets as Jariaya did, and I do think Sakura and Tsunade's parallel is the weakest). My point was that I find Jariaya and Tsunade's relationship too similar to that of Naruto and Sakura's that it simply can't be coincidental. I, along with the majority of Narusaku fans, can't simply ignore that, the same goes with the Team Kakashi parallels (Kakashi/Obito/Rin).

[PachucoDesigns]

I agree with most of what you said, but I never said it was a DIRECT parallel (I don't want Naruto to have the same regrets as Jariaya did, and I do think Sakura and Tsunade's parallel is the weakest). My point was that I find Jariaya and Tsunade's relationship too similar to that of Naruto and Sakura's that it simply can't be coincidental. I, along with the majority of Narusaku fans, can't simply ignore that, the same goes with the Team Kakashi parallels (Kakashi/Obito/Rin).

Yes, it is similar. Let's just hope it isn't exactly similar.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

If people really want to use them as a valid parallel for NaruSaku, that's what needs to happen.

I never used JiraTsu as a parallel since Tsunade si totally different than sakura, she had a boyfriend and they loved each other different than sakura that she had a crush.
Jiraya loved tsunade that why he never had a girlfriend or loved someome else on the story.

and there's a difference between jyraia and naruto, Naruto will tell her his feelings, jiraya could not tell it because tsunade closed herself to love because of what happened to Dan.

Kakashi/Obito/Rin.

the outcome was difference kaakshi never leave the village or was evil, the similarity comes from he didnt care about Rin.

the only parallel that is valid is MinaKushi because sakura is like kushina 2.0, and naruto inherited minato personality naruto can be a genius when the situation demands it in battles per example, he inherited his father will and dreams.

Edited by dovahkiin, 23 July 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[Nate River]

Actually, that's one of the reasons why I was an early adopter of the Tobi = Obito possibility. If Obito were alive, in some form or other, then perhaps that could explain why Kakashi's loaner Sharingan was upgraded when Kakashi theoretically wouldn't have had the power to do it himself.

And not just because Kakashi isn't an Uchiha. Even if achieving Mangekyo was possible when the eye was in a non-Uchiha body, prior to the Mangekyo upgrade Kakashi had already stated that everyone close to him was dead. So what personal loss experience could have converted the eye for Kakashi during the timeskip?

I think nothing has quiet opened Kishimoto up to the charge of "ass-pull" like the somewhat vague circumstances about unlocking and evolving the Sharingan (well that and the ever expanding list of techniques it magically has). Sasuke is a prime example: did he get it because he killed Itachi or was it given to him by Itachi? The "trap" placed for Tobi sure suggests the latter, but that's not the same as definitive proof.

A long time ago, I asked what does it take. Does the best friend (originally used by Itachi) or other person have to die or is it enough for the person with the eye to believe it? To me it makes more sense for the latter because then it depends on the person with the eye and what goes on in their brain. How would the sharingan know the difference as to whether Obito died or not, if Kakashi truly believed at the time? I'm willing to suspend disbelief to a degree, but not so much as to say that the evolution was because of Obito's death at a later point in time.

Moreover, I believe he cannot shut it off because of the only sharingan DNA he has is in the eye, so he's limited in how much he can do with it and essentially gets the eye in the same condition that he took it. But if this is why he cannot shut it off he should not be able to evolve it either. It just doesn't add up.

It always made me wonder if Obito was still alive in some form, and events in his life were affecting the Sharingan in Kakashi's possession.

I just can't suspend my disbelief this far: that Obito has an effect on eye that is no longer his. At least effect it independent of Kakashi.

ETA: Oh! And plus there's the similarity between Tobi's ocular dimension warp and the dimension warp Kakashi's Mangekyo can do.

Yeah, I thought the same thing.

[theorangehokage]

Well how can it be obito? Like he got killed at the time of minato vs tobi ? ( correct me if im
Wrong please )

Remember that coffin Kabuto brought up? The mystery coffin ? Did we ever get to know who was that in there o: ?

[Nate River]

Well how can it be obito? Like he got killed at the time of minato vs tobi ? ( correct me if im
Wrong please )

Remember that coffin Kabuto brought up? The mystery coffin ? Did we ever get to know who was that in there o: ?

Yeah.

Madara was the mystery coffin.

[Codus N]

Exactly. (My fic idea had its genesis in imagining how a kiss between them might actually evolve into a possibility. But since I don't write PWP, I had to create an entire story to build up to that scene and then what would logically result, lol. But I don't see the point in spending the time to do it right for maybe ten people to read it -- if I was lucky. Besides, I have my hands full with two WIPs as it is.)

I agree about Shizune's death. The fact that she and Kakashi died in the same battle and were revived by the same method seems like a very interesting basis for a potential relationship.

P.S. I know several fans who prefer Kakashi with Ayame, but that leaves me cold. I don't see how a ramen slinger could possibly understand Kakashi or the life he's led. Just my opinion.

Well, I actually prefer him with a filler girl named Hanare (Shippuden 191) . That episode along with her character was really well written. They (Pierrot) did well in creating the chemistry between the two, that I wouldn't mind if Kishi made her canon like Matsuri. In fact, there's already a good fic for them too (and as a bonus, there's also NS as a side-ship).

Actually, that's one of the reasons why I was an early adopter of the Tobi = Obito possibility. If Obito were alive, in some form or other, then perhaps that could explain why Kakashi's loaner Sharingan was upgraded when Kakashi theoretically wouldn't have had the power to do it himself.

And not just because Kakashi isn't an Uchiha. Even if achieving Mangekyo was possible when the eye was in a non-Uchiha body, prior to the Mangekyo upgrade Kakashi had already stated that everyone close to him was dead. So what personal loss experience could have converted the eye for Kakashi during the timeskip?

It always made me wonder if Obito was still alive in some form, and events in his life were affecting the Sharingan in Kakashi's possession.

Tobi's recent statements that make it seem as if he knows Kakashi well have only fanned the flames of speculation. Plus all of Tobi's "I am no one" stuff. A Japanese friend of mine (who happens to read Naruto) was telling me that there's a Japanese/English hybrid slang word obbito, a cross of obit and bito, that means dead person. He was wondering if Kishimoto was somehow making a play off that.

*shrug* It's all very crackish, I admit, but in a story like this just about anything is possible.

ETA: Oh! And plus there's the similarity between Tobi's ocular dimension warp and the dimension warp Kakashi's Mangekyo can do.

Bolded: Wow, seriously?? then that means the theory has more merit to it then. Kishi is also known for having word plays in his manga so I wouldn't be surprised if this were true.

Also, if it is true, Kakashi would be a total wreck when he finds out. If Tobi retreats when his mask is broken (as it's been hinted), Kakashi is going to have trouble keeping himself sane. He's going to need someone by his side.

[theorangehokage]

Well remember the fight with Konan ? We got to see izanagi AND a portion of tobi's face cuz te mask was somewhat cracked off. So if anyone can match that little bit of his face to anyone we have seen so far. We could just narrow the people down. And then from that we just gotta figure which one knows kakashi and guy well. Obito is a candidate already

Hmm they made an episode of Konan vs Tobi and the chapter # i forget but it is a good way at narrowing it down

Okay so what are the thing we know about him?

• he is well known to kakashi & guy

What else?

[KnS]

A long time ago, I asked what does it take. Does the best friend (originally used by Itachi) or other person have to die or is it enough for the person with the eye to believe it? To me it makes more sense for the latter because then it depends on the person with the eye and what goes on in their brain. How would the sharingan know the difference as to whether Obito died or not, if Kakashi truly believed at the time? I'm willing to suspend disbelief to a degree, but not so much as to say that the evolution was because of Obito's death at a later point in time.

For the record, I didn't mean to suggest that Kakashi's Mangekyo upgrade was due to Obito's death at a later time. I was suggesting that if Obito did not die when it was assumed he did, that perhaps some event in Obito's ongoing life (of which Kakashi is unaware) was the reason for the Mangekyo upgrade in the eye that Kakashi possesses.

And believe me, I'm not saying any of this necessarily makes great sense, or that I can defend the theory. I'm just looking for ways to connect the dots with what we know -- plus leave room for potential asspullery.

Moreover, I believe he cannot shut it off because of the only sharingan DNA he has is in the eye, so he's limited in how much he can do with it and essentially gets the eye in the same condition that he took it. But if this is why he cannot shut it off he should not be able to evolve it either. It just doesn't add up.

I agree. As you said, the mystery of how the Sharingan works, its power levels and upgrades, and how it is affected by the body it's in have not been explained well. That's exactly why it's on my "what I'd like to see" list.

Kishimoto has relied on "DNA" as an explanation for a lot of things in his story, and yet he has steered clear of any real detailed or scientific explanations -- and I don't blame him. That's a slippery slope in a story like this, and it's more convenient to ask readers to be complicit in the fantasy aspect and accept his broad explanations at face value. (The problem is, you can easily run aground if you take other aspects of the story at face value.)

But..... I remember Obito saying, "I'll become your eye and see the future with you," and I wonder if maybe a mystical element is implied. That maybe characteristics/experiences of the Sharingan's original owner are bound to the eye itself somehow -- like Kakashi acquiring Obito's habitual tardiness post-implant, for instance.

I don't know. I may be trying too hard to connect the dots, or look for dots that aren't there. Hopefully Kishimoto will get it explained one of these days.

Well how can it be obito? Like he got killed at the time of minato vs tobi ? ( correct me if im Wrong please )

I wish I had $20 for every person who argued with my theory that Orochimaru would return before the end of the story. They said he couldn't POSSIBLY come back because he was "dead," and yet he just did. The thing is, in a story like this nearly anything is possible. There are ways Kishimoto could potentially explain how Obito is Tobi, and resolve all the confusion over the details in a reasonably satisfactory manner. (Well, as reasonably as he explains a lot of other stuff, anyway. )

Wow, seriously?? then that means the theory has more merit to it then. Kishi is also known for having word plays in his manga so I wouldn't be surprised if this were true.

That's what my friend said. He was just throwing it out as a possibility (months ago), and then when Tobi started telling Naruto that he was "no one" I thought that was something a "dead person" might say.

Also, if it is true, Kakashi would be a total wreck when he finds out. If Tobi retreats when his mask is broken (as it's been hinted), Kakashi is going to have trouble keeping himself sane. He's going to need someone by his side.

I've wondered that if Tobi turned out to be Obito somehow, maybe that revelation would be the focus on Kakashi that Kishimoto talked about covering in the story but he hasn't yet. IDK.

[Nate River]

For the record, I didn't mean to suggest that Kakashi's Mangekyo upgrade was due to Obito's death at a later time. I was suggesting that if Obito did not die when it was assumed he did, that perhaps some event in Obito's ongoing life (of which Kakashi is unaware) was the reason for the Mangekyo upgrade in the eye that Kakashi possesses.

And believe me, I'm not saying any of this necessarily makes great sense, or that I can defend the theory. I'm just looking for ways to connect the dots with what we know -- plus leave room for potential asspullery.

Ah, sorry. I don't think we'll ever get an explanation. The reason being is that Kakashi has flashed the technique in front of several ninja who ought to have asked "where did you learn that" and to date no one has pressed the issued. While Naruto has bouts with not being the most insightful human being every to walk this earth, he's aware enough that I think he would ask.

At the same time, I don't think it's past the realm of possibility that he would look at and say, "hey, that's pretty cool" and accept it for the awesomeness that it is. Sakura on the other hand, is to supposed to be highly intelligent and insight and even she doesn't think to ask....?

Come to thing of it, given the prominence of the sharingan and it's massive power doesn't it strike you as somewhat odd that nobody has really ever sought to learn about it's unlocking and evolution? Wouldn't you want to know everything you could possible know about and eye with that much power and many of it's users trying to kill you? Just sayin'....

I suspect it means he doesn't really have answers to those questions so rather than half-assed explanations that could be torn apart he just skips the issue entirely. Itachi, Madara, and Tobi have always had their eyes in their current state (while on screen) so that piece of info doesn't necessarily matter a ton with them. With Sasuke though....

EMS is the only one we got an explanation for and even that one makes limited sense. So, perhaps it was a good call he didn't dive into further. A choice between plot hole or no-sense explanation. If it were me, I'd have probably done the same.

I agree. As you said, the mystery of how the Sharingan works, its power levels and upgrades, and how it is affected by the body it's in have not been explained well. That's exactly why it's on my "what I'd like to see" list.

Kishimoto has relied on "DNA" as an explanation for a lot of things in his story, and yet he has steered clear of any real detailed or scientific explanations -- and I don't blame him. That's a slippery slope in a story like this, and it's more convenient to ask readers to be complicit in the fantasy aspect and accept his broad explanations at face value. (The problem is, you can easily run aground if you take other aspects of the story at face value.)

It's a smart call by him if he doesn't know the subject. As a writer you sometimes have to get into other complex area you don't have any expertise and have limited to time learn about it, especially in the format he publishes. So you can be vague or offer explanations that will be annihilated by those who do know it.

As a reader, I don't take much issue as long as the vagueness doesn't created plot holes that cannot be waived away or the attempted explanation (even if vague) isn't so far base that's it's clear even basic research was not attempted.

The main problem with the sharingan is the continued emergence of techniques right at the moment someone's ass is in fire. We see it keep happening, but without the explanation is reeks of how convenient. And while I certainly no professional, I think you would want to keep those moments at a minimum. If had set out the conditions on which it work then there would be something to compare to and say this does/does not make sense.

Not an easy choice, that's for sure.

I don't doubt it could be Obito in some form, but like I said in the chapter thread there are just a few nagging issue that keep me from jumping on board. So, all I can say is I don't know.

[KnS]

Ah, sorry. I don't think we'll ever get an explanation.

I admit that's possible, but I'm not ready to give up all hope yet.

Come to thing of it, given the prominence of the sharingan and it's massive power doesn't it strike you as somewhat odd that nobody has really ever sought to learn about it's unlocking and evolution? Wouldn't you want to know everything you could possible know about and eye with that much power and many of it's users trying to kill you? Just sayin'....

Definitely. If readers are asking, you'd think involved characters would be too.

It's a smart call by him if he doesn't know the subject. As a writer you sometimes have to get into other complex area you don't have any expertise and have limited to time learn about it, especially in the format he publishes. So you can be vague or offer explanations that will be annihilated by those who do know it.

As a reader, I don't take much issue as long as the vagueness doesn't created plot holes that cannot be waived away or the attempted explanation (even if vague) isn't so far base that's it's clear even basic research was not attempted.

The main problem with the sharingan is the continued emergence of techniques right at the moment someone's ass is in fire. We see it keep happening, but without the explanation is reeks of how convenient. And while I certainly no professional, I think you would want to keep those moments at a minimum. If had set out the conditions on which it work then there would be something to compare to and say this does/does not make sense.

Not an easy choice, that's for sure.

It really does make you wonder if he just didn't bother to figure out the details, and then realized the convenience of not explaining the boundaries so they could be expanded at will -- or if he doesn't realize we don't understand or it's not clear -- or if he's still going to clear it up. Maybe it's somewhere in between...?

I don't doubt it could be Obito in some form, but like I said in the chapter thread there are just a few nagging issue that keep me from jumping on board. So, all I can say is I don't know.

That's basically how I feel too. I just have a nagging feeling about it -- like I did with Orochimaru's return -- but I can't see the path. Of course, Tobi's identity could also easily turn out to be explained some other way entirely. It seems to me that Kakashi Gaiden hinted at more than has been resolved, and as I said in the last post, if Kishimoto has stuff planned for Kakashi that he hasn't covered yet, it might include the explanation about his Sharingan and possibly other elements about the past -- such as Obito, and Rin's mysterious demise. *shrug*

[theorangehokage]

Do you think naruto will meet Sage of six paths? Like how he met minato & kushina ?

[Nate River]

You know what I want to see:

Sasuke use Izanagi. It's the only Mangekyou jutsu that has yet to see significant plot relevance. Removing it from the Danzou fight would change the fight, but not the overall plot. People have talked about Sasuke losing his eyes. If he does, I bet it is because he uses it in a moment of desperation against Naruto or whoever the final villain is (assuming it's not Sasuke). While the sharingan hasn't been called evil, everyone (with the exception of Kakashi) who has used it has been portrayed as evil at one point or another. Even Itachi is, at best, a mixed one. It would be one way to remove the eye (and the signature of that family) that has caused so much damage without killing Sasuke.

I could live with a redeemed by blind Sasuke.

Why introduce that jutsu if that is all the focus it will get?

[theorangehokage]

Very true Nate . Like against Tobi/ Madara he uses it? That would be epic .

Naruto & Sasuke & Kakashi vs Tobi & Madara . Epic fight i wanna see

CRAZY THEORY . . .

What if tobi is obito. A zetsu fused together with him to somehow fix his right crushed side who was brought back to life by Pein ( obito was brought back to life) o.o . . .

[merryGOflava]

Very true Nate . Like against Tobi/ Madara he uses it? That would be epic .

Naruto & Sasuke & Kakashi vs Tobi & Madara . Epic fight i wanna see

CRAZY THEORY . . .

What if tobi is obito. A zetsu fused together with him to somehow fix his right crushed side who was brought back to life by Pein ( obito was brought back to life) o.o . . .

hmm i dont see why not

at this point anyone could be tobi...>:U

[Jake]

You know what I want to see:

Sasuke use Izanagi. It's the only Mangekyou jutsu that has yet to see significant plot relevance. Removing it from the Danzou fight would change the fight, but not the overall plot. People have talked about Sasuke losing his eyes. If he does, I bet it is because he uses it in a moment of desperation against Naruto or whoever the final villain is (assuming it's not Sasuke). While the sharingan hasn't been called evil, everyone (with the exception of Kakashi) who has used it has been portrayed as evil at one point or another. Even Itachi is, at best, a mixed one. It would be one way to remove the eye (and the signature of that family) that has caused so much damage without killing Sasuke.

I could live with a redeemed by blind Sasuke.

Why introduce that jutsu if that is all the focus it will get?

Wasn't Tobi using Izanagi during his battle with Konan plot relvent? I mean according to Konan he can only stay intangable for five minutes and she had enough exploding tags to go off continually for ten, if he hadn't of used it then he would have been killed.

[Nate River]

Wasn't Tobi using Izanagi during his battle with Konan plot relvent? I mean according to Konan he can only stay intangable for five minutes and she had enough exploding tags to go off continually for ten, if he hadn't of used it then he would have been killed.

I mean something that has meaning beyond the battle itself. Susanoo and Amaterasu have become part of the arsenal and are used a bunch of times. Izanagi and Izanami can't really be that because of the cost. Izanami had a plot relevant use beyond just winning the immediate battle: the release of Edo Tensei.

I'm hoping for something like that with Izanagi. It mattered in both battle but it was more or less just another technique used in battle a couple of times.