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Double Standard Or No?


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#41 Traci

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (shadow_Uzumaki @ Jul 30 2012, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't hate the fact that Sakura's a satellite character, in fact, her interactions with Sasuke and Naruto do manage to shape her from fangirl to the confident, young woman we see. Now, if she could only make her mind up...Blah.

However, in some cases, I think that Hinata's stifled by Naruto and her shyness. The difference between the two is that, while Sakura does revolve around our Pro- and Deuteragonist (Naruto and Sasuke respectively), we see enough of her interacting with other separate characters enough that she's not always going on about Naruto and Sasuke.

In contrast, Hinata always seems to revolve around the fact that she must get stronger for her Naruto-kun or what have you. I kinda blame Kishi on this one for not resolving the Naruto-Hinata thing earlier. Like you mentioned, I'm sure her life doesn't totally revolve around Naruto, but it's the most common characterization that Kishi always uses, so she seems very static or flat....


Yeah, I do think Hinata is a worse offender when it comes to satelliting. Although it's probably because she's a side character. Technically, Sakura does it, but yeah, it's definitely not as severe.

However, when I think about it, technically, who isn't satelliting around Naruto/Sasuke/Uchihas these days? tongue.gif

Ya know what I don't understand? People who say horrible things about Sakura apparently fangirling Sasuke in the manga even now. They're all like, "Sakura loves Sasuke. Looks like she's a fangirl after all." Just because she loves Sasuke doesn't mean she's a fangirl, jeez. It really takes the cake when they love Hinata for only talking about Naruto, though...

Edited by Traci, 30 July 2012 - 09:41 PM.


#42 xxRomanceGirlxx

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:41 PM

Honestly, I hated Sakura too in Part One. She constantly fangirled over Sasuke all the time. Besides the fact that it was annoying, she was just losing her own dignity for such a thing. She probably didn't think so, but that's the impression most of us got. SasuSaku fans like to say Sakura fell in love with Sasuke after seeing his imperfections(Ironically, this assumption is on that NH/SS-biased Naruto wiki laugh.gif), but I can't see it. Not only did her feelings come off as shallow but Sakura never seemed to accept his flaws. In fact, she had an idealized, perfect vision of him in her mind.

Sakura is one of my favorite characters, because she changed the most in a postive way out of any other character besides Naruto and Shikamaru. First impressions are important which is exactly why so many people hate Sakura true. It annoys me and is incredibly unfair. I wish Sakura haters would be a bit more logical honestly.

As for Naruto falling in love with Sakura in Chapter 3, don't see it. Sure he realized why he liked her and that she was like him in a way(Seeking acknowledgement), but he didn't love her, at least at that point in time. It was merely an infatuation, just like Sakura's for Sasuke. Naruto's feelings IMO only developed into love when he was willing to sacrifice himself to protect her or put her happiness before his own. Late Part One, I guess tongue.gif .

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#43 Traci

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:51 PM

QUOTE (xxRomanceGirlxx @ Jul 30 2012, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Honestly, I hated Sakura too in Part One. She constantly fangirled over Sasuke all the time. Besides the fact that it was annoying, she was just losing her own dignity for such a thing. She probably didn't think so, but that's the impression most of us got. SasuSaku fans like to say Sakura fell in love with Sasuke after seeing his imperfections(Ironically, this assumption is on that NH/SS-biased Naruto wiki laugh.gif), but I can't see it. Not only did her feelings come off as shallow but Sakura never seemed to accept his flaws. In fact, she had an idealized, perfect vision of him in her mind.

Sakura is one of my favorite characters, because she changed the most in a postive way out of any other character besides Naruto and Shikamaru. First impressions are important which is exactly why so many people hate Sakura true. It annoys me and is incredibly unfair. I wish Sakura haters would be a bit more logical honestly.

As for Naruto falling in love with Sakura in Chapter 3, don't see it. Sure he realized why he liked her and that she was like him in a way(Seeking acknowledgement), but he didn't love her, at least at that point in time. It was merely an infatuation, just like Sakura's for Sasuke. Naruto's feelings IMO only developed into love when he was willing to sacrifice himself to protect her or put her happiness before his own. Late Part One, I guess tongue.gif .


I'm fine with people who hated Sakura for part one. I get the feeling that if I had at least disliked her, I would like her even more than I do now. tongue.gif (Or maybe I wouldn't like her at all... mellow.gif ) Alas, at 9-years-old, I thought she was the coolest thing ever and that opinion has still stuck with me.

Goodness... This reminds me of the first time I visited Naruto fandom... I honestly thought everyone would like her and things would be so awesome and stuff and we would fangirl together. xDDD



I would try never going into threads about her or about pairings, but I would always hear Sakura bashing anyway. It's weird how people feel the need to bring up how much they hate her in threads about Naruto's outfit. I just ended up lurking here and at the Heaven and Earth forum at Naruto Forums.

Edited by Traci, 30 July 2012 - 09:56 PM.


#44 shadow_Uzumaki

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:58 PM

QUOTE (Traci @ Jul 30 2012, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, I do think Hinata is a worse offender when it comes to satelliting. Although it's probably because she's a side character. Technically, Sakura does it, but yeah, it's definitely not as severe.

However, when I think about it, technically, who isn't satelliting around Naruto/Sasuke/Uchihas these days? tongue.gif

Ya know what I don't understand? People who say horrible things about Sakura apparently fangirling Sasuke in the manga even now. They're all like, "Sakura loves Sasuke. Looks like she's a fangirl after all." Just because she loves Sasuke doesn't mean she's a fangirl, jeez. It really takes the cake when they love Hinata for only talking about Naruto, though...



Forgot to mention that tidbit, considering they're pretty much the main characters of the series. Although, at least it's not to the extreme that they ALL rely on Naruto to do everything, it's Naruto himself who wants to undertake the burden, which is a bit of a switch in a shonen series ( I could be wrong, I don't read other shonen series), and everyone else are capable of pulling their weight unless it's to defeat a major baddie. It's similar to Luke Skywalker learning in Empire that he needs to learn to let his friends do their job, which he does in Return of the Jedi when he does, by letting everyone else fight the Empire while he tries to turn his father back to the Light.

Personally, I disliked Sakura in Part 1, too, at least until the bench scene and beyond where Sakura began losing her shallowness.

#45 Broken Figurine

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:29 AM

Personally, I did not dislike Sakura part one. I didn't dislike Naruto part one either. Their most outstanding flaws (Sakura being a fangirl, Naruto being the idiot-rival) was already starting to tone down by the first arc, and they were so obviously not meant to be taken seriously that while I could see being annoyed by it, and I agree that it certainly could be, I didn't take it as annoying. During the time they were at their worst I was more interested in the plot, the story, and was trying to judge it as a whole. Funny, the two most "annoying" characters part one became my favourite by far. Naruto and Sakura are my favourite characters and they were even when I was a SasuSaku fan--though even then I did pick up the romantic and friendly moments of NaruSaku.

Here is where I see the double standard in first impression alone. Why do we forget that Naruto was hung up over Sasuke too? It wasn't romantically--it was in the rival sense, but he was adamant on beating Sasuke and he was trying hard to overcome it, but failing. I acknowledge that people may find being obsessed about trying to best somebody is better than being in-love-obsessed; after all, we have negative words like fangirl and stalker, but what do we have for the obvious underdog trying to beat somebody? Idiot, loser, dead-last maybe, but they're not really specific like fangirl and stalker are. They were both trying too hard, and they still continued to have a very Sasuke-oriented focus even up until now but I would argue that for the beginning of part 2, it was way more emphasized as Naruto's kind of "hopeless" pursuit than Sakura's. In fact, Sakura had a much more team-7 and "help them both" attitude rather than it just being all about Sasuke-Sasuke-Sasuke, and this wasn't an overnight thing. She had implied it late part 2, and we've seen her worry about the rivalry between Sasuke and Naruto on the rooftop, and when Naruto was trying hard during the chuunin exams--wanting to go as far as failing the team so that Naruto could keep his dream of becoming Hokage... It wasn't outright stated, but you know that that would be disqualifying Sasuke too--you know, the person she's all fangirling over?

I understand the first-impression issue very well--in fact, in social psychology we talk about the power of impressions. This is an every day life thing we all suffer from, and an example would be that sub-consciously depending on how someone just describes another person to you, whether it is positive or negative, before you even meet them you have a bias and it's not easily shaken off because EVERYTHING that that person does you use another bias called the confirmation bias to support that impression/belief about the person and disregard the good. It may be why Hinata seems unable to do wrong--we do get a better first impression of her, as minor as it is-- and Sakura can do no right by some people in the fandom. Yet, there is a double-standard... Naruto does not get this amount of pressure from the fandom even though he didn't have the best start.

I went to a panel this year at Anime North about writing strong female characters. The panelists, some were published authors, and we had one professor of anthropology, explained that female characters all seem to carry this burden about being female, and therefore more scrutinized. A male character can get away with doing more than a female can. This is not just a sex issue, but it's the same when you're a minority character, or a homosexual character. For whatever reason, and I think it's just ridiculous, when you're female you have to be portrayed just right. If she is physically weak, typically female. If she has romantic issues, typically female. If she is emotional, typically female. There is a pressure to make her more masculine, but somehow still portray her as a realistic female. Suddenly, female characters have to be role models and have to be acceptable, or she'll be praised for being in a role that is typically a male dominated role. If she's the ace, if she's the tough one, if she's made of ice and is only focused on the quest or whatever it may be.

I've never minded feminine characters male or female. So, if I can accept a guy who is just a side character to provide support, I can accept it from a female too. It does get annoying when it seems that a role is being shoe-horned, like only males seem to be great fighters and girls tend to be healers/support, but that was annoying in Sailor Moon where it was females but granted there weren't many male characters at all. We had Tuxedo Mask... and well the villains were male but not the Big Bad. In Naruto, we have a number of female characters and while I'm not as hung over about it that Sakura isn't a super-awesome fighter because, my gosh, that's all anyone seems to be in this fandom lately, I can see the frustrations. I think Sakura is a true character, with complex relationships, feelings, and growth, that doesn't rely on special blood-types, jutsus, or special pasts with special families that have special talents. Sakura was given no handout, except her intelligence, but in a manga of special fighting intelligence only counts if you're Shikamaru who has a super-special brain that can think of 200 different scenarios in a second. I'm more disappointed that Kishimoto doesn't show more "normal" skills of the ninja world being used effectively. Where above-average, not super, intelligence and techniques, not clan-abilities, can be useful in battle. This is where Sakura gets her "useless" title--she's not super-special-awesome. Tenten gets called it too, but let's face it, she's not important enough and is hardly a character herself to get too much scrutiny.

^^^^^That paragraph up there is a little bit off-topic, but I think it is a factor in why Sakura gets more scrutiny. Even if Naruto can be annoying, Sasuke-obsessed, angry, and flawed, he is a good fighter and the plot is heavily about him. Sakura can be annoying, Sasuke-obsessed, angry, and flawed, but she can't match up to Naruto's level of power. I think being a healer is a great thing, I think the fact that she is able to fight off a genjutsu is wonderful--I wish more was being done with it--and she does pack a punch and she's not hopelessly lost on a battlefield, but she's not the one throwing volleys of powerful jutsus and so she can't match up to the big fighters and so that's reduced to incompetence. We haven't seen her fight against the side characters with "lesser" abilities (but all save for Tenten and Lee have some clan affinity) so we don't know if she can hold her own against them, and from what I've seen is the popular opinion is that clan ability trumps regular ability. Training with the hokage apparently doesn't give her an edge and let's face it, we don't see enough of her fighting. She did fight against Sasori, but because she had help some say it didn't count... but we're not criticizing that Shikamaru had help, and from more people might I add? Sakura had Chiyo, who is an old woman. Shikamaru's teammates were those two guys, Ino, Chouji, Asuma, and even Kakashi and Naruto stepped in to help defeat Kakuzu. I'm not undermining his achievements, it's just his often are not whereas Sakura's are.

I don't think either Naruto or Sakura are perfect characters, and I mean that they are handled well from a literary point of view. They both have moments that seem inconsistent, strange, awkward, and even unlikeable. All the same, my perspective is they are both great, and my bias is I tend to look upon both favourably rather than unfavourably, but I do think that sometimes even I turn a harsher eye to Sakura. I think it's because she's just so unusually normal and so I want her to have as many good moments as Naruto does, but in this manga good moments are fighting moments. He's won and fought a lot of battles. Sakura's good moments usually aren't so obvious or highlighted, and while her bad moments are just as small sometimes, for some reason they stick out more. I can more easily recall the times Sakura was pushed down, or crying, or saying something mean-spirited than Naruto did, but I know he had those moments too. It's easier to recall Naruto's shining moments as well, but I remind myself, he has far more screen-time and he's the main character and unless it's about Sasuke, everything comes back to him story-wise.

It an unfortunate double standard and I think one part she's female, one part she's not a stellar unique fighter in a shonen manga where that's a big thing, and that she has a mixed bag of rather subtle moments that don't easily stand out, and depending on the impression that one gets early on good or bad may stick out more.

#46 Traci

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:33 AM

QUOTE (Broken Figurine @ Jul 30 2012, 10:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Personally, I did not dislike Sakura part one. I didn't dislike Naruto part one either. Their most outstanding flaws (Sakura being a fangirl, Naruto being the idiot-rival) was already starting to tone down by the first arc, and they were so obviously not meant to be taken seriously that while I could see being annoyed by it, and I agree that it certainly could be, I didn't take it as annoying. During the time they were at their worst I was more interested in the plot, the story, and was trying to judge it as a whole. Funny, the two most "annoying" characters part one became my favourite by far. Naruto and Sakura are my favourite characters and they were even when I was a SasuSaku fan--though even then I did pick up the romantic and friendly moments of NaruSaku.

Here is where I see the double standard in first impression alone. Why do we forget that Naruto was hung up over Sasuke too? It wasn't romantically--it was in the rival sense, but he was adamant on beating Sasuke and he was trying hard to overcome it, but failing. I acknowledge that people may find being obsessed about trying to best somebody is better than being in-love-obsessed; after all, we have negative words like fangirl and stalker, but what do we have for the obvious underdog trying to beat somebody? Idiot, loser, dead-last maybe, but they're not really specific like fangirl and stalker are. They were both trying too hard, and they still continued to have a very Sasuke-oriented focus even up until now but I would argue that for the beginning of part 2, it was way more emphasized as Naruto's kind of "hopeless" pursuit than Sakura's. In fact, Sakura had a much more team-7 and "help them both" attitude rather than it just being all about Sasuke-Sasuke-Sasuke, and this wasn't an overnight thing. She had implied it late part 2, and we've seen her worry about the rivalry between Sasuke and Naruto on the rooftop, and when Naruto was trying hard during the chuunin exams--wanting to go as far as failing the team so that Naruto could keep his dream of becoming Hokage... It wasn't outright stated, but you know that that would be disqualifying Sasuke too--you know, the person she's all fangirling over?

I understand the first-impression issue very well--in fact, in social psychology we talk about the power of impressions. This is an every day life thing we all suffer from, and an example would be that sub-consciously depending on how someone just describes another person to you, whether it is positive or negative, before you even meet them you have a bias and it's not easily shaken off because EVERYTHING that that person does you use another bias called the confirmation bias to support that impression/belief about the person and disregard the good. It may be why Hinata seems unable to do wrong--we do get a better first impression of her, as minor as it is-- and Sakura can do no right by some people in the fandom. Yet, there is a double-standard... Naruto does not get this amount of pressure from the fandom even though he didn't have the best start.

I went to a panel this year at Anime North about writing strong female characters. The panelists, some were published authors, and we had one professor of anthropology, explained that female characters all seem to carry this burden about being female, and therefore more scrutinized. A male character can get away with doing more than a female can. This is not just a sex issue, but it's the same when you're a minority character, or a homosexual character. For whatever reason, and I think it's just ridiculous, when you're female you have to be portrayed just right. If she is physically weak, typically female. If she has romantic issues, typically female. If she is emotional, typically female. There is a pressure to make her more masculine, but somehow still portray her as a realistic female. Suddenly, female characters have to be role models and have to be acceptable, or she'll be praised for being in a role that is typically a male dominated role. If she's the ace, if she's the tough one, if she's made of ice and is only focused on the quest or whatever it may be.

I've never minded feminine characters male or female. So, if I can accept a guy who is just a side character to provide support, I can accept it from a female too. It does get annoying when it seems that a role is being shoe-horned, like only males seem to be great fighters and girls tend to be healers/support, but that was annoying in Sailor Moon where it was females but granted there weren't many male characters at all. We had Tuxedo Mask... and well the villains were male but not the Big Bad. In Naruto, we have a number of female characters and while I'm not as hung over about it that Sakura isn't a super-awesome fighter because, my gosh, that's all anyone seems to be in this fandom lately, I can see the frustrations. I think Sakura is a true character, with complex relationships, feelings, and growth, that doesn't rely on special blood-types, jutsus, or special pasts with special families that have special talents. Sakura was given no handout, except her intelligence, but in a manga of special fighting intelligence only counts if you're Shikamaru who has a super-special brain that can think of 200 different scenarios in a second. I'm more disappointed that Kishimoto doesn't show more "normal" skills of the ninja world being used effectively. Where above-average, not super, intelligence and techniques, not clan-abilities, can be useful in battle. This is where Sakura gets her "useless" title--she's not super-special-awesome. Tenten gets called it too, but let's face it, she's not important enough and is hardly a character herself to get too much scrutiny.

^^^^^That paragraph up there is a little bit off-topic, but I think it is a factor in why Sakura gets more scrutiny. Even if Naruto can be annoying, Sasuke-obsessed, angry, and flawed, he is a good fighter and the plot is heavily about him. Sakura can be annoying, Sasuke-obsessed, angry, and flawed, but she can't match up to Naruto's level of power. I think being a healer is a great thing, I think the fact that she is able to fight off a genjutsu is wonderful--I wish more was being done with it--and she does pack a punch and she's not hopelessly lost on a battlefield, but she's not the one throwing volleys of powerful jutsus and so she can't match up to the big fighters and so that's reduced to incompetence. We haven't seen her fight against the side characters with "lesser" abilities (but all save for Tenten and Lee have some clan affinity) so we don't know if she can hold her own against them, and from what I've seen is the popular opinion is that clan ability trumps regular ability. Training with the hokage apparently doesn't give her an edge and let's face it, we don't see enough of her fighting. She did fight against Sasori, but because she had help some say it didn't count... but we're not criticizing that Shikamaru had help, and from more people might I add? Sakura had Chiyo, who is an old woman. Shikamaru's teammates were those two guys, Ino, Chouji, Asuma, and even Kakashi and Naruto stepped in to help defeat Kakuzu. I'm not undermining his achievements, it's just his often are not whereas Sakura's are.

I don't think either Naruto or Sakura are perfect characters, and I mean that they are handled well from a literary point of view. They both have moments that seem inconsistent, strange, awkward, and even unlikeable. All the same, my perspective is they are both great, and my bias is I tend to look upon both favourably rather than unfavourably, but I do think that sometimes even I turn a harsher eye to Sakura. I think it's because she's just so unusually normal and so I want her to have as many good moments as Naruto does, but in this manga good moments are fighting moments. He's won and fought a lot of battles. Sakura's good moments usually aren't so obvious or highlighted, and while her bad moments are just as small sometimes, for some reason they stick out more. I can more easily recall the times Sakura was pushed down, or crying, or saying something mean-spirited than Naruto did, but I know he had those moments too. It's easier to recall Naruto's shining moments as well, but I remind myself, he has far more screen-time and he's the main character and unless it's about Sasuke, everything comes back to him story-wise.

It an unfortunate double standard and I think one part she's female, one part she's not a stellar unique fighter in a shonen manga where that's a big thing, and that she has a mixed bag of rather subtle moments that don't easily stand out, and depending on the impression that one gets early on good or bad may stick out more.


I thought I was the only one who felt that way sometimes. mellow.gif When Sakura was weak in part one, all the fans hated on her for it and called her a disgrace to females. I was like, okay, the average fan prefers a girl who can kick ass over one who doesn't really pull her weight. You could imagine my shock when the Sasori fight came along and people were hating on Sakura for being a Mary-Sue... DAFUQ? I was like, "This is what you wanted, you guys!!??"

It looks like, when you're weak, you're a disgrace to females, and when you're strong, you're a Mary-Sue. Shikamaru did pretty well against Hidan, and I don't remember anybody criticizing him as a Gary-Stu for being strong. And if fans did, definitely not as much as how much fans did for Sakura.

Anyways, the strength of a character doesn't really matter to me. If it did, Sakura wouldn't be my favorite character because I would be fangirling over like Madara or something. Honestly, I don't think strength is the be all end all for most people, or many characters would not have any fans at all.

#47 GlucoseGlutton

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:27 AM

QUOTE (Traci @ Jul 29 2012, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As you probably know, there are plenty of people who heavily criticize Sakura for loving Sasuke, both in Part 1 and in Part 2. For some, the reason they consider Sakura loving Sasuke as pretty much a crime is because Sasuke is not a nice guy. Basically, they bag on Sakura for liking the bad boy and not the nice guy (Naruto). Yet, many of these people consider Sakura the worst person ever, cruel, horrible, and they like to make it sound like Sakura hates Naruto. Some even consider her worse than Sasuke, and that he deserves to be forgiven, but not Sakura.

My point is, if Sakura is pretty much anti-Christ, then why do I never see anyone bagging on Naruto for liking the (apparently) bad girl and not noticing the good girl (Hinata)? Would this be considered a double standard? Have you seen people hating on Naruto for that?

Just for the record, I don't dislike any of the characters I mentioned above. (I might have made it sound like I hated Sasuke, which I don't. I'm just recounting what other people have said about these characters.)


Hmmm.. Well actually I've seen a couple of people who "bag" (hehe bag I like it happy.gif ) on Naruto not for liking Sakura instead of Hinata but they say that they'll hate Naruto if he doesn't get with Hinata or if he doesn't acknowledge her confession yada yada ya. What I think is that its not just double standards but fans also tend to emphasis character A's flaws to prove that instead character C should get with get with character B. Character A in this case being Sakura, character B Naruto and character C being Hinata. At least that's what I think unsure.gif .

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#48 Traci

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:15 AM

QUOTE (Bubbleyum @ Jul 31 2012, 02:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmmm.. Well actually I've seen a couple of people who "bag" (hehe bag I like it happy.gif ) on Naruto not for liking Sakura instead of Hinata but they say that they'll hate Naruto if he doesn't get with Hinata or if he doesn't acknowledge her confession yada yada ya. What I think is that its not just double standards but fans also tend to emphasis character A's flaws to prove that instead character C should get with get with character B. Character A in this case being Sakura, character B Naruto and character C being Hinata. At least that's what I think unsure.gif .


Now that I think about it, I have seen at least one fan say that Naruto will be a douche if he rejects Hinata's confession. It's definitely not as common as people who hate Sakura for loving Sasuke, but eh. Do some people hate Naruto for ignoring Hinata? Chances are, there are a few fans that feel that way. I think I remember a meme about Naruto that said, "Struggles to gain acknowledgement from villagers. Ignores Hinata." I guess Naruto does get criticism after all, even though it's not as common.

Although, it's not criticism for liking such an *apparently* terrible girl, is it? It's criticism on not liking Hinata. I've seen, "Naruto's so terrible for ignoring Hinata!" But I don't think I've ever seen, "I HATE Naruto for going after Sakura because she's a terrible person."

Honestly, whenever I see people blatantly bashing one character in order to make another character seem superior in every way, all it proves to me is that they aren't confident in their pairing or character, consciously or subconsciously. I mean, if you need to bash another character in order to make your character or pairing look good, what does that say about that character or pairing? That he or she cannot stand on their own as a good character without making other characters look bad?





#49 PachucoDesigns

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE (Traci @ Jul 31 2012, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now that I think about it, I have seen at least one fan say that Naruto will be a douche if he rejects Hinata's confession.


Wow. Whoever said that is a fool. Nobody is owed love simply on the basis of a bold confession. I wish that was the case, it would make life a lot easier for me, but it isn't.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.

Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.

I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.

#50 Traci

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE (PachucoDesigns @ Jul 31 2012, 04:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow. Whoever said that is a fool. Nobody is owed love simply on the basis of a bold confession. I wish that was the case, it would make life a lot easier for me, but it isn't.


Agreed. What Hinata did was sweet and very heartwarming, but Naruto doesn't owe Hinata a relationship. Fortunately, I've only heard this view like once, so I'm pretty sure it's not common.

#51 PachucoDesigns

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:35 AM

QUOTE (Traci @ Jul 31 2012, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed. What Hinata did was sweet and very heartwarming, but Naruto doesn't owe Hinata a relationship. Fortunately, I've only heard this view like once, so I'm pretty sure it's not common.


I'm glad you have the heart to see it that way. So far, the consensus on the NS side seems to be that it was stupid, selfish and inconsiderate. Which I find to be unfair.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.

Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.

I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.

#52 Traci

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:10 AM

QUOTE (PachucoDesigns @ Jul 31 2012, 04:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm glad you have the heart to see it that way. So far, the consensus on the NS side seems to be that it was stupid, selfish and inconsiderate. Which I find to be unfair.


Yeah, I definitely don't agree with that. She thought they were all going to die, so she preferred dying protecting Naruto. She went in there desperate to do anything to help him and she ended up finally confessing how she felt about Naruto to explain why she was willing to die for him. They were all going to die anyway, so why not die trying to protect the one you love? I feel it was pretty awesome of her.

It sort of reminded me of when Sakura was running towards Naruto when he turned into the four-tails (I don't remember how many tails lol). Some people thought this scene was idiotic and stupid of Sakura, but I liked it.

Based on the reactions of Naruto, obviously the confession wasn't supposed to be taken negatively. Besides, I'm pretty sure all of Konoha 11 would have gone in and tried to help Naruto if they saw that he was staked down to the ground and losing.

So yeah, I do think it was a beautiful confession and I personally see it as Hinata's crowning moment of awesome in the manga. I don't think I explained myself very well here... sweatdrop.gif

#53 PachucoDesigns

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:41 AM

QUOTE (Traci @ Jul 31 2012, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, I definitely don't agree with that. She thought they were all going to die, so she preferred dying protecting Naruto. She went in there desperate to do anything to help him and she ended up finally confessing how she felt about Naruto to explain why she was willing to die for him. They were all going to die anyway, so why not die trying to protect the one you love? I feel it was pretty awesome of her.

It sort of reminded me of when Sakura was running towards Naruto when he turned into the four-tails (I don't remember how many tails lol). Some people thought this scene was idiotic and stupid of Sakura, but I liked it.

Based on the reactions of Naruto, obviously the confession wasn't supposed to be taken negatively. Besides, I'm pretty sure all of Konoha 11 would have gone in and tried to help Naruto if they saw that he was staked down to the ground and losing.

So yeah, I do think it was a beautiful confession and I personally see it as Hinata's crowning moment of awesome in the manga. I don't think I explained myself very well here... sweatdrop.gif


Exactly.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 11th, 2012, my Aunt Karla passed away. She was my mother's baby sister, and my coolest aunt when I was a kid. She was the best babysitter ever, and she was like an older sister to me.

Karly, I don't know if you can hear this. I am not a believer, I haven't been since Sheryl died. But if you can, I want you to know that I'm truly sorry for everything bad I've ever said about you. When you were suffering, I should have been there to help you. I should have visited. I should have encouraged you to leave the house and get a job, to be active and alive the way you used to be.

I promise that I will do everything that I can to be successful and a good person, to make you proud the way you would have wanted me to. No matter what I said, I loved you. And I will always love you. Rest in Peace, you will never be forgotten.

#54 shadow_Uzumaki

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:46 PM

I actually heard that kind of reasoning from my friends when that chapter came out, they were like, "Wow! Now Naruto HAS to love Hinata, she said she loves him! And Sakura's a b*tch anyway." My only response was to go HEADDESK and went, "Really?" I stopped it there since I really didn't wanna argue over a fictional relationship and went back to watching them play Street Fighter.

#55 Nate River

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:51 PM

QUOTE
I understand the first-impression issue very well--in fact, in social psychology we talk about the power of impressions. This is an every day life thing we all suffer from, and an example would be that sub-consciously depending on how someone just describes another person to you, whether it is positive or negative, before you even meet them you have a bias and it's not easily shaken off because EVERYTHING that that person does you use another bias called the confirmation bias to support that impression/belief about the person and disregard the good. It may be why Hinata seems unable to do wrong--we do get a better first impression of her, as minor as it is-- and Sakura can do no right by some people in the fandom. Yet, there is a double-standard... Naruto does not get this amount of pressure from the fandom even though he didn't have the best start


As to first impressions I think that Naruto's in a unique position compared to Sasuke and Sakura. Before those two characters were even introduced the audience already knew why Naruto was the way he was. It's been much more fleshed out since then, but we got a very quick and very sad introduction into why Naruto did what he did. Naruto's already been slotted into the role of protagonist and we have already be conditioned by the author to feel sorry for him. Sakura initial introduction is her squabbling with Ino over Sasuke and a very quick dismissal of Naruto in favor of a boy that has no interest. All we know of Sasuke at the time at the time of his introduction is that Naruto hates him and that he's the object of the girl Naruto likes.

Having already been set up to see the universe through Naruto's eyes and feel sorry for him, I think people side with Naruto. I think Sasuke calls him a loser early on, but at the moment of introduction I don't remember Kishimoto giving a reason why you would side with either outside of basic story construction. That is, Naruto's the hero. Kishimoto's a lot slower in offering both the "I should feel sorry" department to both of them and Sakura's is nothing unique or special; it's classic childhood bullying (you think more people would identify with that). But even with Sasuke, by the time we find out the initial "why" readers, on the whole, have already sided with Naruto. Something they were probably supposed to do.

First impressions are hard to shake and some people never do it. They see everything through that lens. I'm like you though, I didn't hate Sakura at her introduction. I always saw it as an opening for development. I cannot recall if I expected it or not, but it was an opportunity that was there. As long as it's not overdone and they aren't reminiscent of Scrappy Doo (Roger from Star Ocean 3 rubbed this way), I tend to like characters who start of a bit bratty or exhibiting some other negative character traits and so on at the moment of introduction because there is obvious room for development. I'm also very partial to the villain to hero transformation (if done right) for similar reasons. Speaking of your avatar, one of my favorite characters of all time was one of the worst offenders when it came to such behavior: Luke Fon Fabre.

I don't remember what my original opinion of Sasuke was. I think also from the stand point of first impression, if you are looking at the universe through Naruto's eyes I could see it running both ways: you don't like Sakura's pursuit of Sasuke, but are willing to overlook his pursuit Sakura (you want what Naruto wants); or you are willing to support Hinata (she was nice at her initial introduction, which if the anime is your first viewing is much earlier in time than the manga; where as Sakura came off as shallow at hers). There are a bunch of other reasons like people identifying with a particular character's situation; I think is somewhat common in SS, for example. But I just wanted to comment on that one aspect of your post.

There are, obviously, less generous explanations (sexism) and simpler ones too (simply dislike the Tsundere archetype, although, Sakura is a very mild version compared to some of the more legendary characters in that department). But this being my first foray into fandom, so I'm going to stay away. I have no comparative experience in other fandoms, so I have nothing to compare it too.

#56 Broken Figurine

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:35 PM

QUOTE (Nate River @ Jul 31 2012, 06:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As to first impressions I think that Naruto's in a unique position compared to Sasuke and Sakura. Before those two characters were even introduced the audience already knew why Naruto was the way he was. It's been much more fleshed out since then, but we got a very quick and very sad introduction into why Naruto did what he did. Naruto's already been slotted into the role of protagonist and we have already be conditioned by the author to feel sorry for him. Sakura initial introduction is her squabbling with Ino over Sasuke and a very quick dismissal of Naruto in favor of a boy that has no interest. All we know of Sasuke at the time at the time of his introduction is that Naruto hates him and that he's the object of the girl Naruto likes.

Having already been set up to see the universe through Naruto's eyes and feel sorry for him, I think people side with Naruto. I think Sasuke calls him a loser early on, but at the moment of introduction I don't remember Kishimoto giving a reason why you would side with either outside of basic story construction. That is, Naruto's the hero. Kishimoto's a lot slower in offering both the "I should feel sorry" department to both of them and Sakura's is nothing unique or special; it's classic childhood bullying (you think more people would identify with that). But even with Sasuke, by the time we find out the initial "why" readers, on the whole, have already sided with Naruto. Something they were probably supposed to do.

First impressions are hard to shake and some people never do it. They see everything through that lens. I'm like you though, I didn't hate Sakura at her introduction. I always saw it as an opening for development. I cannot recall if I expected it or not, but it was an opportunity that was there. As long as it's not overdone and they aren't reminiscent of Scrappy Doo (Roger from Star Ocean 3 rubbed this way), I tend to like characters who start of a bit bratty or exhibiting some other negative character traits and so on at the moment of introduction because there is obvious room for development. I'm also very partial to the villain to hero transformation (if done right) for similar reasons. Speaking of your avatar, one of my favorite characters of all time was one of the worst offenders when it came to such behavior: Luke Fon Fabre.

I don't remember what my original opinion of Sasuke was. I think also from the stand point of first impression, if you are looking at the universe through Naruto's eyes I could see it running both ways: you don't like Sakura's pursuit of Sasuke, but are willing to overlook his pursuit Sakura (you want what Naruto wants); or you are willing to support Hinata (she was nice at her initial introduction, which if the anime is your first viewing is much earlier in time than the manga; where as Sakura came off as shallow at hers). There are a bunch of other reasons like people identifying with a particular character's situation; I think is somewhat common in SS, for example. But I just wanted to comment on that one aspect of your post.

There are, obviously, less generous explanations (sexism) and simpler ones too (simply dislike the Tsundere archetype, although, Sakura is a very mild version compared to some of the more legendary characters in that department). But this being my first foray into fandom, so I'm going to stay away. I have no comparative experience in other fandoms, so I have nothing to compare it too.


I actually didn't think of that, thank you. We learned of Naruto's situation from the get-go, which puts us in an interesting position. It took us time before we learned Sakura's backstory and in comparison to Naruto's more sympathetic situation, I suppose she comes off as more shallow. I don't know, even without thinking "this person has potential" I suppose Sakura just never annoyed me that much for me to need the context. She's not even a proper Tsundere. Tsundere's are are all rough on the outside but sweet on the inside for the person they liked. She was the reverse, which was the first time I've seen it so I guess it was interesting to me. She's trying to be sweet and gentle on the outside to appeal to Sasuke, but her inner persona was more into the things Naruto was doing. I just don't see what rubbed people about Sakura so wrong that she was doomed for the rest of the manga that is nearing 600 chapters now. She is so different than her initial introduction and she started changing shortly after, or making the effort to, and she had nice moments littered here and there that we hadn't seen once from other characters. We saw her showing sympathy to the hungry boys in the wave arc, even prior to that admiring Naruto's effort (before he as the idiot-rival flopped and thus comedic reaction). As someone who was rather neutral for a first impression toward her, it is hard for me to see what they see in her and hard for me to understand how they don't see. Then again, I was neutral toward Hinata for the longest time and I still came out disliking her, and I started off liking Sasuke up until the middle of part 2 when his team came by. I disliked Karin but my feelings toward her have mellowed.

It's a tangent but I understand completely about Luke. I can't say that I like him as one of my favourites, but I did grow to like him as the story unfolded, and boy was he ever a piece of work at the beginning--Sakura was mild in comparison. I guess you could say Natalia was the same, and her thing with Asche stayed throughout the game until... well... but when she shows up at the ending she gave off a strong impression, having handled it well. She wasn't the best character ever, but she interested me. Abyss didn't have characters that really drew me. I was rather neutral toward the leads--respect points for Luke's turn around and backstory--I liked Natalia probably best for reasons I don't even know how to explain, maybe because she was somewhere in the middle of Anise's over the top quirky personality and Tear's rather muted one, and I liked Guy because his gynaphobia was funny and sad at the same time and he had a good-guy vibe (and then shocker). Jade was fun for his sarcasm, and goodness who can forget Dist, but I didn't have the same connection to the characters as I did Tales of Symphonia and I wasn't as big a fan of the relationships--they could have done a lot more at times, but the same can be said about Naruto sometimes so XD

Being a former SS fan and shipper, I thought it had potential with the chuunin exams, but at the same time that was when NaruSaku's potential started to stand out too but it didn't have the dramatic Sakura... who did that to your face? moment, and Sasuke's character was still sort of ambiguous I guess. He had the potential to like her, and I still stand by that he certainly cared about her as a friend, and Sakura's concern by then for him seemed genuine. NaruSaku had the test scene and the saving from Gaara, but I suppose like with the characters and my feelings toward them, as the manga progressed things started to change and more and more SasuSaku was a thing of the past wheras NaruSaku--who had the appeal of my two favourite characters, in love and the fact that more and more the relationship was growing, becoming complex, and mutual even in all its ambiguity, it was hard not to favour it. <3

I don't know how much sexism comes into play. Kushina is well liked, and Hinata certainly is in the fandom. The criticsms against females from what I've seen are pretty harsh, but they are also kind of diminished as fighters in comparison to male characters so I don't know. I know that the tendency to scrutinize female characters is there, with surprisingly females being quite apt to do that because girls feel they need to be represented right...? I don't know how many times I've heard female fans around me say they have a tendency to dislike female characters and not just from Naruto. I think they are more attracted to male characters for heterosexual reasons because guys are cooler to them? Are guys just better written in general? I can't say I'm in the camp that has this male vs female character issue. I'll say it a thousand times, I adore both Naruto and Sakura as characters. Don't make me choose~




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