62735 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

My problem is that Naruto unintentionally tell Sakura to stay with Sasuke because of reasons.

[Candleguy]

 

 

 

I'm going way out on a vine here, but luffy's post made me think about this. Yeah, Naruto gets a lot of praise for putting Sakura's feelings first and wanting to see her happy and bring back Sasuke. But luffy is right; he should have smacked her down and told her how awful Sasuke was for her.

We criticize NH and SS a lot for the self-insert aspect of the pairings. Beta males who want to get a girl like Hinata and teenage girls who want Sasuke. But there's some room for self-insert in NS, too. That awful type of "nice guy" stuff you see. I see them in fanfic profiles all the time. "If you talk to her on the phone after her boyfriend dumps her." "If you let her cry on your shoulder." "If you pick her up drunk from a party." You guys know what I'm talking about.

That's the awful kinda "nice guy" that ends up shooting up a sorority because women won't sleep with him.

 

And all of this just confirms what we already know. Not only did Kishi's inability to portray romance destroy the story. Not only did it require a bunch of retcon and abandonment of important themes and narratives. But all the pairings reflect awful views on men, women, and the nature of relationships.

 

Here's why NaruSaku was never a nice guy pairing.

 

If we ignore the "rivalry" aspect.

 

Naruto tried throughout part 1 to actively get Sakura's attention. He was never trying to back his way into Sakura's kitten as a friend. For part 2 where he was silent about his intentions we got more than one instance were it was implied he had all the intention in the world to full confess to Sakura despite knowing she loved Sasuke.

 

The stereotypical nice guy relationship as it is usually described the nice guy is afraid of rejection or losing access to the girl via friendship and so is paralyzed in the friend zone. There was no sign of Naruto ever worrying about any of that.

 

Ironically before the rivalry aspect was introduced there was nothing sneaky/deceitful or scheming about Naruto's affection for Sakura. He came at her 100% whether she believed him or not. And he only took a step back when (as we once thought) he had pressing priorities.

Edited by Candleguy, 23 January 2015 - 05:39 AM.

[Candleguy]

My problem is that Naruto unintentionally tell Sakura to stay with Sasuke because of reasons.

If you mean the confession where he says "You love Sauske"

 

That was just the awful truth. For Naruto, Sakura and the story.

 

He didn't need to convince her of anything. She was already there.

Edited by Candleguy, 23 January 2015 - 05:41 AM.

[luffyq1]

Communication between how they feel about each other, maybe, but in other aspects no. They knew each other better than they knew themselves at some points. They acted for each other, that's how they communicated.

if their relationship progressed to that point, then why didn't they talk about the mutual romantic affection that even yamato could see?
 

Being emotional doesn't mean that you can express yourself the way you want to. The majority of the time, most of Naruto's real feelings were bottled up. He never really addressed how he felt until the time at the waterfall. You can be emotional but not show it.

 
ok let me rephrase my answer. naruto is one of the most emotional and outspoken people in this series. how many times early in part 2 did he openly expressed his anger about being a jinchuuriki, or that he misses sasuke. naruto was so expressive in early of shippuden that i found it to be annoying. lol
 

Naruto was only allowed to show his feelings towards Sasuke, and later Obito. Every other time he got hindered. He couldn't say anything about Sakura. His feelings got forced down his throat after Jiraiya's death because of the expectations Jiraiya and Minato levied on him. The only people he was able to she extreme emotion towards were Sasuke and Obito, and a brief bit to and with Gaara. but that's it. He had no other meaningful emotional interactions with anyone else.

 
so he's able to show his feelings towards sasuke and a crazed lunatic like obito, but not sakura? that says a lot about the relationship between naruto and sakura then. and also, he had an emotional interaction with minato inside his mind. naruto openly expressed how insecure he was to minato. the only roadblocks stopping naruto from expression his love for sakura is sasuke, because he was crazy enough to actually accept her request. i say the promise of a lifetime be damned! put your feelings out there, and if he gets rejected then so what. it won't be the end of the world. i mean, look at jiraiya. tsunade loved dan and the guy was still crazy for her.
 

@bold, his feelings, and his understanding of them. got likened to ramen. That's how serious people took his feelings.

oh that's what you meant. well so was sasuke and ino's feelings. sasuke outright said he didn't like sakura, and ino had to settle for sasuke's lookalike. and karin? who's that again?

 

It's not really a contradiction as our views of communication were probably different. He knew her better than anyone else did, and her him. He wasn't allowed to voice his true feelings to her. This goes back to what I was saying about Jiraiya. I didn't mean that Naruto learned that from Jiraiya, rather Jiraiya's quote was a underlying theme for the manga, as shown in the spoiler below:

knowing someone better than anyone, and their relationship still remained platonic. and if sakura knows naruto better than anyone like you said, then how come she didn't go to naruto and try to talk to him so that he can open himself up more around her about how he feels.
 

Think of it this way. Hashirama was mocked by the Kage and scolded by Tobirama for bowing his head out of emotion, Naruto was mocked by Ay for the same thing. Hashirama was mocked by Madara for much the same. Obito was mocked by Kakashi as a child for it, as well as scolded by Minato.

well in that instance, naruto was mocked because he was bowing his head for criminal. ay was offended by it and rightfully so.
 

Kakashi time and time again scolded Naruto for being emotional. Orochimaru mocked Naruto, saying his emotions made him trash in part one, and in part two also made light of Naruto's feelings towards Sasuke. Kabuto did much the same. Itachi, very negatively, described Naruto to Deidara as "the one who bursts in and barks the loudest", speaking towards his reliance of his emotions to guide him.

Hinata never even considered Naruto's feelings, and Sakura (right or wrong), tried to manipulate them. Jiraiya, as you mentioned, berated Naruto for his feelings. Naruto was told by Iruka to not to grieve. Naruto was expected not to show any hatred, even though hatred is as natural to one as love. The same applies with anger. Obito made light of his feelings. Hell even Zabuza and Haku did as well.
 
There are many more instances, but the point is this: Kishi set up gender roles in his writing very clearly. The women were expected to have extreme emotions to a fault, because that was the only thing they could do: provide emotional support. Little girls were expected to fall in love with people they knew nothing about, and women were supposed to reflect the feelings of immature little fangirls, as is the case with Sakura, Ino, and Hinata. Their feelings were the most important, and when they tried to step into another role, they were second place to men. 
 
The men were expected to be the torch-bearers and pillars of strength, but if you showed emotions at any time, you were openly mocked for it. In the light of women, the feelings of men never mattered: Hinata's "love" for Naruto overrode his for Sakura, Sakura's obsession with Sasuke overrode his previous actions and statements. Men were meant by Kishi to be strong, but stoic, and their feelings never really mattered, else the ending wouldn't be the ending.

This is the dynamic set up by Kishi, and the underlying message in his writing. Men's feelings don't matter, and the feelings of women are the only thing that women have.

i agree, but you make it sound like the women in this series got the better treatment over men, which i don't see it that way. take hinata for example. her potential development went out the window in favor of love. she wasn't allowed to become the strong and independent hyuuga leader that a lot of us expected her to be. her goal was thrown away because of love. hinata has gotten worse treatment than naruto, yes i said it! ever since part 2 started its always been about naruto-kun. turning her into an obsessive woman is just downright degrading. sakura's never ending love for sasuke is another insult to women. from start to finish it has been a negative impact on her character and has become one of the most vile things in this story. and what about karin's love? completely written off. for a character who's only purpose seemed to be about being by sasuke's side came to unexpected end. it's a damn shame.

and that's not entirely true for the men. you have characters such as gaara who's back story involved love heavily. all he wanted was the love from his father and to hear stories about how much mommy loved him. and in the end, gaara got exactly just that from his mommy. and don't even get me started on the crazy clan called uchiha. loving too much for them is a bad thing. and zabuza wasn't mocked for crying like a baby from naruto. in fact, naruto encouraged him to show some emotion, because he was viewed as a ruthless assassin. so while you do make points, at the same time some of it can be refuted by the manga.

Edited by luffyq1, 23 January 2015 - 06:52 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

If you mean the confession where he says "You love Sauske"
 
That was just the awful truth. For Naruto, Sakura and the story.
 
He didn't need to convince her of anything. She was already there.

It's one of those elements to avoid or rather didn't need to bring it up at all. Stuff like that is adding new (old) elements to the story and because of that, it doesn't match the past developments at all. It all made things convoluted and unnecessary. It happened to be in an arc where so many new story info came in that one Kage said it best: this is just ridiculous.

[Candleguy]

 

if their relationship progressed to that point, then why didn't they talk about the mutual romantic affection that even yamato could see?
 

 
ok let me rephrase my answer. naruto is one of the most emotional and outspoken people in this series. how many times early in part 2 did he openly expressed his anger about being a jinchuuriki, or that he misses sasuke. naruto was so expressive in early of shippuden that i found it to be annoying. lol
 

 
so he's able to show his feelings towards sasuke and a crazed lunatic like obito, but not sakura? that says a lot about the relationship between naruto and sakura then. and also, he had an emotional interaction with minato inside his mind. naruto openly expressed how insecure he was to minato. the only roadblocks stopping naruto from expression his love for sakura is saasuke, because he was crazy enough to actually accept her request. i say the promise of a lifetime be damned! put your feelings out there, and if he gets rejected then so what. it won't be the end of the world. i mean, look at jiraiya. tsunade loved dan and the guy was still crazy for her.
 

oh that's what you meant. well so was sasuke and ino's feelings. sasuke outright said he didn't like sakura, and ino had to settle for sasuke's lookalike. and karin? who's that again?

 

knowing someone better than anyone, and their relationship still remained platonic. and if sakura knows naruto better than anyone like you said, then how come she didn't go to naruto and try to talk to him so that he can open himself up more around her about how he feels.
 

well in that instance, naruto was mocked because he was bowing his head for criminal. ay was offended by it and rightfully so.
 

i agree, but you make it sound like the women in this series got the better treatment over men, which i don't see it that way. take hinata for example. her potential development went out the window in favor of love. she wasn't allowed to become the strong and independent hyuuga leader that a lot of us expected her to be. her goal was thrown away because of love. hinata has gotten worse treatment than naruto, yes i said it! ever since part 2 started its always been about naruto-kun. turning her into an obsessive woman is just downright degrading. sakura's never ending love for sasuke and another insult to women. from start to finish it has been a negative impact on her character and has become one of the most vile things in this story. and what about karin's love? completely written off. for a character who's only purpose seemed to be about being by sasuke's side came to unexpected end. it's a damn shame.

and that's not entirely true for the men. you have characters such as gaara who's back story involved love heavily. all he wanted was the love from his father and to hear stories about how much mommy loved him. and in the end, gaara got exactly just that from his mommy. and don't even get me started on the crazy clan called uchiha. loving too much for them is a bad thing. and zabuza wasn't mocked for crying like a baby from naruto. in fact, naruto encouraged him to show some emotion, because he was viewed as a ruthless assassin. so while you do make points, at the same time some of it can be refuted by the manga.

IMO AHK is not saying the woman got better treatment. AHK is saying they are treated differently not better. Their characters got ruined in a different way.

 

The male characters were allowed enough emotion to create friendship and bonds of understanding. The woman has their entire lives revolve around their emotions

 

Plus look at how Naruto ended up in 700, the emotional character ended up a stoic stiff because he's "grown up"

Edited by Candleguy, 23 January 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[luffyq1]

 

IMO AHK is not saying the woman got better treatment. AHK is saying they are treated differently not better. Their characters got ruined in a different way.

 

The male characters were allowed enough emotion to create friendship and bonds of understanding. The woman has their entire lives revolve around their emotions

 

Plus look at how Naruto ended up in 700, the emotional character ended up a stoic stiff because he's "grown up"

sounds like a better deal for the guys in this series if you asked me.

 

for our heroine, it has always been about love from start to finish. it makes it even worst because that love was sasusaku. this is without a doubt the most hated pair in this story, and for good reasons too.

 

the last image of our heroine was dusting a bookshelf. that's probably the worst character assassination in this series. sends a great message to all the little girls reading this series.

 

to add insult to injury, her damn kid don't even look like her

Edited by luffyq1, 23 January 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[Atheck]

Score remains stagnant at 2.82. NS4Life, it seems like the overall ranking has decreased ever so slightly from the original 2.84 ranking. 
 
If anyone is curious, this is the most recent multi-star review: 
 

Review

Titled The Last is, than cause you've no longer accept the love element ... reason that Hinata and Naruto became family, was not told in the original part. Since the axis of the story Unlike until now is love, but there is a place where opinion is divided, and one very good than I thought as a work, I thought that it was good to see. Yet "The Last", Hinata just to spot light is hit, tell the truth, not a last? With that said, better you have already not the last word in the title to or "by It 's love story" is, than accepted the flirting with Hinata, Nante. In all, you can either criticism or who saw accepts, it was what you seem to also as determined by the. Ending was very beautiful! Kishimoto teacher cheers for good work!

[MangaReader]

At this point... does anyone even have to watch the movie? I mean even the people who care. I could tell you the whole movie without watching it, which from a movie standpoint is pretty damn awful especially since it's suppose to wrap everything up

[Aizen-Sama]

In the most random of places, A Dragonball Z video... and it's only Naruto related by the username alone, I've found how strange the world we live in know a days is. Yup, I found someone who's username is literally "Hinata's Breasts"

Hahahahahahaha are you serious?! XD I've never seen a character as sexualized as Hinata..I hang around the Bleach fandom and I've NEVER come across someone named "Orihime's kittens" or "Rangiku's Melons". Even in OP or Fairy Tail fandom I don't see many named "Nami's kitten" or "Lucy's Rack". Naruto is the only fandom where a secondary covered-up character like Hinata is sexualized to fetished extremes. It is so kittening weird. These Hinata fans are honestly quite disgusting.

[MangaReader]

Hahahahahahaha are you serious?! XD I've never seen a character as sexualized as Hinata..I hang around the Bleach fandom and I've NEVER come across someone named "Orihime's kittens" or "Rangiku's Melons". Even in OP or Fairy Tail fandom I don't see many named "Nami's kitten" or "Lucy's Rack". Naruto is the only fandom where a secondary covered-up character like Hinata is sexualized to fetished extremes. It is so kittening weird. These Hinata fans are honestly quite disgusting.

Username and image to follow suit... yup it's a real thing : |

[RedFaction]

Hahahahahahaha are you serious?! XD I've never seen a character as sexualized as Hinata..I hang around the Bleach fandom and I've NEVER come across someone named "Orihime's kittens" or "Rangiku's Melons". Even in OP or Fairy Tail fandom I don't see many named "Nami's kitten" or "Lucy's Rack". Naruto is the only fandom where a secondary covered-up character like Hinata is sexualized to fetished extremes. It is so kittening weird. These Hinata fans are honestly quite disgusting.

Yes he is serious because I've seen the username before too. The Naruto fandom is the only one that I know of would do something like that.

 

At least for a popular series anyway.

Edited by RedFaction, 23 January 2015 - 07:03 AM.

[luffyq1]

Hahahahahahaha are you serious?! XD I've never seen a character as sexualized as Hinata..I hang around the Bleach fandom and I've NEVER come across someone named "Orihime's kittens" or "Rangiku's Melons". Even in OP or Fairy Tail fandom I don't see many named "Nami's kitten" or "Lucy's Rack". Naruto is the only fandom where a secondary covered-up character like Hinata is sexualized to fetished extremes. It is so kittening weird. These Hinata fans are honestly quite disgusting.

gross. bunch of little of kids who's going through puberty.

[MangaReader]

Naruto the Last in a nutshell

 

[Aizen-Sama]

Username and image to follow suit... yup it's a real thing : |

Hinata fappers are kittening pathetic lol. Naming themselves after her titties... That's all the worth she has to them.

[MangaReader]

Hinata fappers are kittening pathetic lol. Naming themselves after her titties... That's all the worth she has to them.

Kind of a negative attraction type of thing.. or more effectively a turn off

[Advaith]

Naruto couldn't become Hokage or confess to a girl until he saved this guy who wanted to kill him. A plot like that is bound to turn into garbage.

Yes

[LuckyChi7]

At this point... does anyone even have to watch the movie? I mean even the people who care. I could tell you the whole movie without watching it, which from a movie standpoint is pretty damn awful especially since it's suppose to wrap everything up

 

Funny you mention the movie, My best friend and I were talking about this and we came to a very difficult question to answer. 

 

 

If you had to pick between watching Naruto The Last and The Last Airbender Movie, Which movie would you choose?

[Liu bie]

 

Funny you mention the movie, My best friend and I were talking about this and we came to a very difficult question to answer. 

 

 

If you had to pick between watching Naruto The Last and The Last Airbender Movie, Which movie would you choose?

Last Bender is simple

[Aizen-Sama]

Yes

Naruto was supposed to grow up along the way and realize that Sasuke couldn't be saved.
Didn't Kishimoto himself say that he wanted to write a story about a friend who became an enemy when he wrote Naruto? How does such a story end? The enemy becomes a friend again? Freakin lame.