I go to NF from time to time. I participate in debates, simply because I like to. I have not been that involved in many previous pairing wars, so that is probably why I have yet to reach my tolerance limit, because Nick is right, these things can be irritating. Anyway, here is my response. Arsene, if you have a link I can post this on NF or, if you would prefer, you more than welcome to post this as a response.
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You see, there is no proof that Sakura loves Naruto romantically. If she did, she would have actually accepted his date requests without adding something like "only if you pay" tacked on at the end or when she recently shot him down.
I agree to an extent. I don't believe she is in love with Naruto nor do I believe that she had completely let go her feelings of Sasuke. I simply think that this is where it is headed. I base this opinion on what has come before and the overall development of their feelings. Honestly, I think Sakura's feelings are pretty muddled right now. It's probably safe to say that she cares a lot about both of them, but that is probably as far as you can go at this point in time. One advantage NaruSaku has is that there is the possibility of reciprocation from both ends. NaruHina and SasuSaku don't really have this. NaruHina has never really had it at all, and SasuSaku is currently moving away from this (i.e. he is attempting to severe his previous connections and has openly stated this).
Second, in broad terms, Naruto and Sakura have been continually moving closer. From Naruto's crush to a more genuine love, beginning with his realization on why he likes Sakura so much in Chapter 3. Sakura has gone from hating, to friendship, to a close friendship, to whatever you want to call it now. NaruHina has seen very little of this and virtually zero outside the context of the Chunnin exam. Whereas the development for NaruSaku has been consistent and crossed numerous arcs, NaruHina only saw a small amount of change during the Chuunin exams and has almost completely stagnated since then. On the other hand, SasuSaku has been a bit more erratic. I do believe Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were far more genuine at the end of Part 1 than they were at the beginning. I'm not really sure what they are now. The Sasuke she sees in Part 2 is not the same one she crush on/cared for. All we know at this point is that (1) she had matured (i.e. she didn't swoon over him when see saw him, but was ready to fight him) (2) that she still cares about him and (3) that she wants to retreive him. We have received very little insight into exactly what she thinks of Sasuke. In part 2, most of the insight regarding her feelings has revolved around Naruto.
However, Sasuke went from not caring about her to caring. What happened to her did matter to him, but I don't believe he was ever in love with her. If he was that in love with her, I think he stays or goes out and kills his brother with the intent of returning to her. He does neither. His actions at the end of Part 1 and the events in Part 2 clearly indicate that he left without the intent of returning. So while his feelings toward Sakura improved in Part 1, they have done a 180 and gone the other direction. As was pointed out, in Part 2 he pays her very little attention to her, focusing more on Naruto than anyone else.
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In all honestly I think ultimetely in the end, Sasuke WILL come back. Come on it's a manga. =/ Also, Naruto's NINDO."I'll definately bring Sasuke back! It's a promise of a lifetime!" Then Kiba asks if he could keep that promise and Naruto smirks "I never go back on my word! That's my way of the ninja!" Sooo yeah.
To me, the promise of a lifetime cemented the death of NaruSaku.
Actually, I think that Sasuke will come back, but this feeling is born of my pessimism regarding Kishimoto's inability to kill off characters, especially main ones. It seems a bit illogical to me for him to be welcomed back with open arms, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened that way. Until Kishi kills off a main and long standing character, I won't believe that he has the guts to kill of a character as important and as popular as Sasuke. Perhaps this arc will prove me wrong with Asuma, though I wouldn't call him a main character nor is he anywhere near as popular as Sasuke or Gaara is. However, to his credit, I don't think he always panders to popular opinion as I can think of a few things that would be different if he always did.
That said, I disagree with your interpretation of the Nindo and promise. I have doubts that Naruto will be proven wrong on this, though it would make for very interesting character development if he was. It teach him that a person is not always able to keep promises no matter how hard they try. Somethings are just beyond your control. Without knowing whether Kishi intends to teach Naruto this lesson, its a bit difficult to say either way, though the Sasuke situation would be an ideal way of doing that.
However, I agree with Daniee on the promise argument. I think this is the first time I have seen that the deathknell of NaruSaku. It seems a bit odd, considering it really seems to go the other way. It's a demonstration of his dedication to Sakura's happiness and the true extent to which he cares for it even above his own (i.e retreiving Sasuke despite knowing what it will do to his chances of winning her heart). To me, this is one of the most selfless acts of the series. Second we have Sakura's apparent acknowledgement of this depth, though, to be fair, this whole thing is not a declaration of love nor do I make such a claim. Thus, it seems to move towards NaruSaku, not kill it off. I think I can see where you are coming from in that bringing back Sasuke creates a possibility for more development. However, this tends to assume that (1) Sakura feelings remain the same, on this and (2) that Sasuke reties their bond and takes it far beyond on what he did in Part 1. A lot can and already has happened since the depature that make this suspect. Besides, it's not as if they will begin right where they left off when he returns. Current developments suggest this is very unlikely. Plus, you must take account of the NaruSaku developments that have occured in the interm.
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But 282 contradicts that. And Kishimoto also confirmed that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were genuine and that she loved him. [databook]
Sasuke profile - "The love that Sakura felt for him was enough to fulfil his lonliness."
Then:
"He could not give into those feelings."
Sasuke stopped himself from developing feelings for Sakura. It's basically implyed right there. =/
Yeah and when she dashed towards Naruto she also said "NARUTO! Forget the promise! I will save Sasuke-kun myself!" - Yes she cares for Naruto. But Sasuke too. So Ive seen people say about Sakura's growing feelings for Naruto will be wasted if she doesnt end up with him... Well I could say that for SasuSaku too. The entire PART 1 would be wasted [on her feelings part] if she ended up with Naruto. IMO, there is too much development on Sakura's feelings for Sasuke to have them thrown away so she ends up with Naruto. Again, that's just how I feel.
I'm with Nick, I don't like using the databook. At best, its information is only valid around the date of publication. In addition, there is reason to believe its not accurate (its interpretation of Hinata's feelings for example) and should not be cited as if it were gospel. Second, by citing 282 as evidence against NaruSaku (and for NaruHina it seems) and then citing it as evidence proof of SasuSaku is unfair. The databook says Hinata's feelings are ones of admiration, which substantially weakens any effect 282 has on refuting NaruSaku. Thus, if we accept its interpretation of Sakura's feelings, then we should accept its interpretation of Hinata's, otherwise, without further evidence, your just being selective in its use.
One question I do have for anyone with access to a copy: When was it published or last updated?
Second, to some extent, I try to avoid the "waste" argument. I do agree with it in that Naruto failing to end up with Sakura would waste a lot of prior development. It has been clear from the beginning who he likes and this appears to have changed very little. It would be a tad bizzare to dedicate all this time and page space to a relationship where Naruto fails to obtain what he has spent a long time pursuing (Sakura) only to end up with something he has never pursued in the first place (Hinata, or in Sasuke's case, Sakura). I think most fans believe that Naruto will obtains his dreams in the end. However, his dream is limited to become Hokage. Sakura was, and I think still is, one of those dreams. In you want, you can call getting Sasuke back as one as well, though it doesn't really come across as a dream per se.
If I were arguing around the time 181 came out, I'd be more receptive of your argument, but Sasuke's descent into darkness has been going on for sometime and has occured at the same time Sakura has been continually growing closer to Naruto. In this sense, the development has not really been wasted, because the development toward a relationship has not been consistent. It has been moving in the oppisite direction for sometime, especially from Sasuke's end. If you want to talk in terms of time, Naruto and Sakura have been consistent growing closer since chapter 3 and continue to do so now. The Sasuke/Sakura direction changed a long time ago.
However, the reason I tend to shy away from this is because between the various "initial crushes" (i.e. Hinata to Naruto, Naruto to Sakura, and Sakura to Sasuke) someone is bound to end up unsatisfied. That is, unless there is foresome
If you talk in terms of only postive or pro development, then it is inevitable that some development will be wasted. From this perspective you could argue that SasuSaku development has already been wasted.
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Well I disagree. I think she WAS in love with him. "I LOVE YOU WITH ALL MY HEART!" "I would do ANYTHING for you!" "If you can't stay, then take me with you..."
She was willing to betray her own village just to be with him. How is that a simple crush? =/ Then again, that's my view.
I agree with a previous poster (cannot remember who), that Sakura's willingness to scream for help if he didn't stay contradicts this.
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=kataimiko]they do debate there, but no narusaku fans every dare go there because they get torn to shreds by twinbells, and the other awesomely awesome sasusaku supporters.
anyways, Hinata and Naruto are both my least favorite characters in the entire series. Actually, they both get on my nerves quite a bit. But logically speaking, I see more of a chance of them getting together than Naruto and Sakura.
Who or what is twinbells? From previous posts it appears to be another forum like this one, though populated with SasuSaku supporters instead of NaruSaku ones. If so, its understandable that NaruSaku's don't go there. Because, lets be honest, how many SasuSaku's come here an openly debate? I know they lurk, but IchaIcha is the only one I can recall that has openly debated us at H&E. More neutal places are prefferable places to conduct this debates simply because debaters are not surround by the enemy, so to speak. Thus, such an occurence is not unexpected. If it's a person, could someone provide a link of their debates, so I can see for myself.
On the second point, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. I have no objections, but I do disagree with the last statement in that quote.
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NaruSaku grinds my nerves down like no other. Why in God's name does it automatically mean Naruto and Sakura are going to be together, just because they are teammates, and she feels bad at the thought of him dying due to a Kyuubi extraction?
I've never actually seen a NaruSaku debater argue this, but in the event they have I will try provide my own perspective. First, I really don't think it is automatic. What the teammates thing does is provide opportunity in the form of constant interaction and the need to develop some level of trust in order to properly function as a unit. A better way to put it is that it has allowed the chance for the relationship to develop. How do think it would have gone had Naruto or Sakura been on another team? The opportunity is then lost and it's unlikely that we have what we have right now.
On Kyuubi, its certaintly not automatic either. What it does mean is that Sakura possesses intimate knowledge of Naruto that no other member of the Rookie 9+Neji have. To that extent she is unique. She has knowledge of this and has not rejected or reverted to her previous hatred of him. She still cares very deeply about him. The scene also shows sympathy and caring. While this does not automatically mean they are in love, its is significant in that if she lacked this it would certaintly be a strike against NaruSaku. It would be difficult to believe she had any sort of love for him if she did not worry about such things. Second, its significant when you compare it to what she used to think of him.
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NaruSaku shippers are pros at taking every single thing out of context, and working it to fit their own cause. Now, I have not read a lot of debates done by NaruHina shippers, so I can't say for sure whether or not they do the same thing as well. But for the most part it is the NaruSaku shippers who have proven to be the ones who refuse to recognize the actual facts and evidence without skewing it to fit their cause.
Well, on the one hand, I'd be a poor debater if I didn't try to make the strongest argument possible for NaruSaku. While I should (and try to) effectively look at and evaluate contrary evidence and arguments, I think as a pro-NaruSaku debater I should make the most of the evidence I've been presented with. I'm sure you do the same with your preferred pairing and that's fine. However, I don't think anything I've said takes anything out of context. Honestly, I wish you would have provided examples so I could evaluate this a bit better. Without them, its difficult to evaluate the validity of the statement.
To be fair, I freely admit I'm biased. I try to control this because I don't want to set myself up for disappointment nor do I want to oversell my position. But I'd be lying to myself if I claim that I was completely unbaised. I'm not saying you have done this, but I will point out that it bothers me when posters go out of their own way to state their objectivitiy with the implication that their opponent is a baised idiot. In reality, most pairing debaters are biased to some degree since these preferences are often deeply rooted in personal feelings. Thus, I suspect any out of context statements are rooted in this.
Personally, I think that NaruSaku's, SasuSaku's and NaruHina's all take things out of context and oversell their positions from time to time.
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I recently stumbled across some ridiculously lengthy "manifesto" of sorts that Mizura put together. For atleast 10 minutes I sat and laughed as I read it. For never before had I read something so ridiculously biased in my entire life.
I cannot comment on Mizura's essay since I have yet to read it. But seriously, do you think that similar manifesto's written by SasuSaku's(for example, PhoenixBlood's on SasuSaku) or NaruHina are any less biased? Why is Mizura's unique in this respect?
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