1001 replies to this topic

[Shadow1275]

Well, only you have given an answer, but there are some I was curious on getting an answer from. Oh well.

Anyway, I don't know how far that can be taken and still see Sasuke as a villain or Naruto's obstacle. Again, why protect the village only to destroy it later? It reminds me of the Matrix reloaded and revolution where Trinity dies. Why bring her back alive when she only dies again in Part 3? Or The Dark Knight Rises movie where...you know, you can see it yourself I ain't explaining that one.

I just don't see a point in Sasuke fighting the battle. Sure I see the Kages playing a role, but why Sasuke? I don't get it really. I hope Kishi has a good explanation for this one. I'll accept it for now, but I hope a reason comes later on. Although we still don't know why Kakashi killed Rin.



I did. He just kept eating cake.

Haha in other words even he can't figure out this one.

As for the Dark knight, yeah. The first movie was all about losing you fear and then the third movie was all about how you can't live without it. As for this chapter, I don't think Sasuke will stay good forever. Orochimaru is defs still an X factor. When Hashirama raised his chakra that scared all of the Kages which is why I think Sasuke or Orochimaru are putting on faces to keep from getting annihilated. Either way that whole chapter just seemed forced to me. But I guess if Sakura can get over a "redeemed Sasuke" then I might be okay with it.

Edited by Shadow1275, 11 April 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[KnS]

Plus we had the chapter where she saw the darkness and corrupted in him and she felt disgusted by it. Are we to assume that she noticed this and thought nothing of it?

No, I'm not saying that. I think what I'm trying to say is that even though she may have noticed it, and may have understood what it meant, she isn't capable -- based on her emotional instability and damaged life -- of ultimately choosing to reject Sasuke.

I see her as being like an addict. She might want off the Sasuke drug because she knows it's not good for her and it makes bad things happen to her and her life, but she always ends up taking the hit because she's addicted to how she feels when she's on it.

You say it is unrealistic, but I have seen many women leave guys who abuse them and try killing them. So it is not unrealistic to assume she would do the same.

I agree with you that many women do leave such relationships. When I said unrealistic I didn't mean it would be unrealistic for a woman to get enough and leave a guy like Sasuke; I meant that based on her characterization, I thought it was unrealistic to assume Karin would really get enough and leave a guy like Sasuke.

Orochimaru used Karin for his own purposes too, and yet she remained fiercely loyal to him. I'm just saying that Karin has a demonstrated history of taking abuse and remaining loyal, and to think that her established behavior would necessarily change with Sasuke -- who she believes she loves -- doesn't make sense to me.

Karin was really unstable why didn't she feel the same way: "I am happy I became a use for Sasuke."

Same reason why many battered women are miserable but they don't leave? *shrug* It's not easy to understand if you're not susceptible to abuse. And I think finding happiness or empowerment through being abused is a very different problem than tolerating abuse.

Besides, hasn't Karin felt "special" because Sasuke found her useful? Letting him bite her and all that?

And who knows? Maybe Karin was only faking that she was still lovey dovey and accepting of Sasuke....

Edited by KnS, 11 April 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[rocci]

No, I'm not saying that. I think what I'm trying to say is that even though she may have noticed it, and may have understood what it meant, she isn't capable -- based on her emotional instability and damaged life -- of ultimately choosing to reject Sasuke.

I see her as being like an addict. She might want off the Sasuke drug because she knows it's not good for her and it makes bad things happen to her and her life, but she always ends up taking the hit because she's addicted to how she feels when she's on it.



I agree with you that many women do leave such relationships. When I said unrealistic I didn't mean it would be unrealistic for a woman to get enough and leave a guy like Sasuke; I meant that based on her characterization, I thought it was unrealistic to assume Karin would really get enough and leave a guy like Sasuke.

Orochimaru used Karin for his own purposes too, and yet she remained fiercely loyal to him. I'm just saying that Karin has a demonstrated history of taking abuse and remaining loyal, and to think that her established behavior would necessarily change with Sasuke -- who she believes she loves -- doesn't make sense to me.



Same reason why many battered women are miserable but they don't leave? *shrug* It's not easy to understand if you're not susceptible to abuse. And I think finding happiness or empowerment through being abused is a very different problem than tolerating abuse.

Besides, hasn't Karin felt "special" because Sasuke found her useful? Letting him bite her and all that?

And who knows? Maybe Karin was only faking that she was still lovey dovey and accepting of Sasuke....

base on that i conclude that karin is an adorable masochist. now i know why her healing must be bite

[James S Cassidy]

Yeah I understand. We just have to wait and see. I just think "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" is being played here. We don't know what will happen next or even his complete thoughts on the whole thing. We only know that as of now, it's best to stop Madara. Until then, just have to wait and see.

Lol at last comment.

Maybe it is more of "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy." Sort of like the kitten Tracy movie.

Same reason why many battered women are miserable but they don't leave? *shrug* It's not easy to understand if you're not susceptible to abuse. And I think finding happiness or empowerment through being abused is a very different problem than tolerating abuse.

And who knows? Maybe Karin was only faking that she was still lovey dovey and accepting of Sasuke....

But...was Karin really an abused woman? The time Sasuke tried killing her was the only show of force he did to her. It's not like he constantly beat her when she tried to run away earlier. In fact, she stayed so willingly. Even the whole biting thing to the point of sexual arousal.

I guess it is just because in one chapter she is like "I am done with you, Sasuke" and then here she goes completely opposite of that. Yumi never regretted being with Shishio or ever wanted to leave him. Even when he stabbed her. She remained faithful. So I find myself saying "There is insanity and then there is stupidity. Insane people at least have logic in what they do or what they perceive is logic. Stupid people have no logic at all."

Besides, hasn't Karin felt "special" because of Sasuke found her useful? Letting him bite her and all that?

Sort of. I mean, she was always useful not just for the biting heal. So I think she always knew she was useful, but Yumi from Ruroni Kenshin never helped Shishio at all during her time with him which made her feel inadequate. Yumi is insane too, but at least there is some logic to her insanity. Even then Shishio actually loved her. Here Sasuke shows no emotion of that kind to her. So there is no reason for any of it, but she has all the more reason to leave him.

I have known girls of all shapes and forms and these kinds of decisions is....disheartening.

I like Karin's character because she had potential. I wanted more for her, but like I do with Sakura and Hinata, I tally this one under big mistake.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 11 April 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[narusakuluv]

No, I'm not saying that. I think what I'm trying to say is that even though she may have noticed it, and may have understood what it meant, she isn't capable -- based on her emotional instability and damaged life -- of ultimately choosing to reject Sasuke.

I see her as being like an addict. She might want off the Sasuke drug because she knows it's not good for her and it makes bad things happen to her and her life, but she always ends up taking the hit because she's addicted to how she feels when she's on it.



I agree with you that many women do leave such relationships. When I said unrealistic I didn't mean it would be unrealistic for a woman to get enough and leave a guy like Sasuke; I meant that based on her characterization, I thought it was unrealistic to assume Karin would really get enough and leave a guy like Sasuke.

Orochimaru used Karin for his own purposes too, and yet she remained fiercely loyal to him. I'm just saying that Karin has a demonstrated history of taking abuse and remaining loyal, and to think that her established behavior would necessarily change with Sasuke -- who she believes she loves -- doesn't make sense to me.



Same reason why many battered women are miserable but they don't leave? *shrug* It's not easy to understand if you're not susceptible to abuse. And I think finding happiness or empowerment through being abused is a very different problem than tolerating abuse.

Besides, hasn't Karin felt "special" because Sasuke found her useful? Letting him bite her and all that?

And who knows? Maybe Karin was only faking that she was still lovey dovey and accepting of Sasuke....

Also let us not forget that this is a manga about ninja who try to kill each other on a regular basis. So it kind of downgrades the abuse slightly. So while it is definitely still abuse, it's not the same as if it were reality and he tried to kill her. It is less about the physical act of violence as it is the betrayal. While I still hope to see that she hasn't forgiven him and I think it is comparable to a woman returning to her abusive boyfriend, it is not exactly the same since they are shinobi and violence is a part of their everyday lives.

Edited by narusakuluv, 11 April 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Dragunov]

No comment on the chapter. It is what it is.

I read for too many years to not see it to the end, despite how bad it may be.

[KnS]

But...was Karin really an abused woman? The time Sasuke tried killing her was the only show of force he did to her. It's not like he constantly beat her when she tried to run away earlier. In fact, she stayed so willingly. Even the whole biting thing to the point of sexual arousal.

There is more to abuse than beatings. Verbal abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse. The fact that Sasuke didn't happen to smack her around before he was willing to kill her doesn't mean she didn't suffer abuse from him. It's not as if he didn't know she loved him, right? That's the thing about Sasuke -- he abuses everyone, in one way or another.

And... I wasn't the one who brought up Karin's mistreatment by Sasuke. I thought you guys were saying you cared about Karin and how she was treated. (Abused by Sasuke or Kishimoto, take your pick.) You guys are the ones who keep talking about how Sasuke tried to kill her but then she goes back to him -- the point of the outrage being that she was abused by him and yet she appears to want him back.

Either you guys think she was abused or she wasn't. I'm just trying to understand.

I guess it is just because in one chapter she is like "I am done with you, Sasuke" and then here she goes completely opposite of that.

But that's the way it happens in real life abusive relationships sometimes, too. The women will run to a shelter, to the police or to a friend, but then they end up going back for whatever reason. I'm not saying it makes sense or it's easy to understand, I'm just saying it happens.

And honestly, I never believed Karin was done with Sasuke. Anything is possible -- and she could end up double-crossing or betraying him yet -- but the fact that she so emphatically stated that she was over Sasuke made me think she really wasn't. IDK. We'll see.

I like Karin's character because she had potential. I wanted more for her, but like I do with Sakura and Hinata, I tally this one under big mistake.

I can understand that. For my part I'm still going to wait until the story is over before I form any final opinions about what was a big mistake and what wasn't. I think there are still things in play that we can't quite see yet.

[lupina]

I can understand that. For my part I'm still going to wait until the story is over before I form any final opinions about what was a big mistake and what wasn't. I think there are still things in play that we can't quite see yet.

Thanks.
This is exactly what I thought too.
Relax a bit and show whats coming up in the future.

[Awes9]

If Sasuke and Naruto are not opposed in the end, and i'm not talking about a friendly match, then the whole part 2 would be a waste. Even I don't think Kishimoto is that bad of a writer, he's not going to waste all the foreshadowing, the hints and all the themes like that. All we know is that Sasuke gave up on destroying Konoha but that doesn't mean he suddenly switched sides, I am sure there is more than meets the eyes here and. If I am right then that means this war arc is not the last and after the conflict between Madara, Obito and the old hokages is resolved Sasuke will take the role of final antagonist, not villain because there's no villain in this manga.
I know that sounds arrogant but mark my words this is not the end of it all, Sasuke is going to come with his own way towards peace which will directly conflict with Naruto's way.

Anyone else agrees with me ?

Edited by Awes9, 11 April 2013 - 09:56 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

What about the lover nin scene?
So Sasuke will become a "great guy" and will undo the possible development of that chapter and will just be a chapter were she still loves Sasuke despite all Naruto's efforts, or a chapter were she doesnt think about Sasuke the same way she did before?
This lover-nin scene is really bothering me lately...

Also what about the anime team, when the lover-nin scene came kishimoto put dark flames surrounding Sasuke on the anime version it was removed to a Sasuke that really looks like what he's now.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 11 April 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Awes9]

Seriously guys forget about pairings, if Sasuke is really good then the whole Naruto's plot would be a total waste, pairings should be the least of our concerns. And it's not as if there was something related to pairings in this chapter apart from the SK part.

[六道仙人]

I'm a bit surprised that everyone didn't see the real purpose of Karin along Sasuke who's going to the battlefield. Since Kishi gave her a decent background (she's from Uzumaki Clan!), the real purpose of her presence is that to heal Sasuke with her healing/restoring powers. Only for Sasuke. Why only for him? Because I don't able to see a whole alliance biting her for restoring their chakra at once. It would sounds hilarious. I know that this could hurt you, but I think that Karin is Sasuke's nurse in the battlefield. She sucks in fighiting skills, why Kishomoto did let her to escape from jall and then join Sasuke?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I'm a bit surprised that everyone didn't see the real purpose of Karin along Sasuke who's going to the battlefield. Since Kishi gave her a decent background (she's from Uzumaki Clan!), the real purpose of her presence is that to heal Sasuke with her healing/restoring powers. Only for Sasuke. Why only for him? Because I don't able to see a whole alliance biting her for restoring their chakra at once. It would sounds hilarious. I know that this could hurt you, but I think that Karin is Sasuke's nurse in the battlefield. She sucks in fighiting skills, why Kishomoto did let her to escape from jall and then join Sasuke?

I doubt that he will fight for real, the kages can do the job easily.

[六道仙人]

I doubt that he will fight for real, the kages can do the job easily.

She won't fight since he hasn't some decent fighting skills. She will be there only to ber supporting Sasuke. In fact the real purpose of Karin in team Taka is due to her healing ability as that's Juugo is to be a shield for Sasuke. Suigetsu, well... Suigetsu is anarchic...

[Codus N]

So, question, does anyone believe Naruto can fall like Bleach did?

Many, including myself, used to LOVE Bleach just as much as Naruto. But the Hueco Mundo arc completely ruined it for me and I've never been able to get back into it. I never thought the same could ever happen to Naruto... but maybe things can change?

But, unlike Bleach, there are still aspects of Naruto that I could never give up, that being Naruto's family and all the fanfiction it has spawned. But for some people, is it possible for Naruto, a manga you probably love(d) very much, for finally fall off the top 3?

Yes, I do. And even worse, this is the last arc. While as for Bleach, HM arc wasn't. So, in turn, Bleach had better chances of fixing everything than Naruto does right now. I would recommend you to read the latest arc though, things have gotten as exciting as the old days.

Kishi's been flipping the bird to his female characters for a long, long time.

- Sakura has been reduced to pairing fodder, she hasn't had a real fight since the Gaara Retrieval arc, her abilities have been regressing ever since then, and she can still find love in her heart for a guy that always treated her like trash and tried to kill her.

- Hinata has also been reduced to pairing fodder, she's shown no interest in bettering her clan or herself as heiress, and she's completely dependent on and obsessed with Naruto to the point where she's willing to overlook her dead cousin's last moment because of Naruto's big hand.

- Karin has been pairing fodder since her introduction, she literally can't fight because she's a sensory ninja, she clings to Sasuke as if her life depends on it, and she's a-okay with him stabbing her through the chest as long as he apologizes afterward.



The only ones from their age-group that have been treated decently are Temari, Tenten, and Ino. Yes, Ino has it better than those three. She still loves Sasuke and comes off as an air-head, but at least she can stand up for herself. The same goes for Tenten. She doesn't get much screen time, but at least she can hold her own when she's needed.

How can Kishimoto do so much good for females like Tsunade, Shizune, and Mei, but screw up so badly for Sakura, Hinata, and Karin? I just don't understand.

Well, Temari is hinted to have some feelings for Shikamaru.... and yet, she's nothing like the other 3 girls. Better yet, Ino is definitely better than those 3 because Shika and Chouji are far better teammates for Ino than Sasuke and Naruto is for Sakura. Why?? it's because both boys just care about their own personal goals instead of caring about their teammates' growth as a person as well as a shinobi.

BTW, I also believe that this chapter should've had Sasuke asking a demonstration between the WoF and Hatred to the Hokages. And then, he'll make his final decision. That, to me, would've gone perfectly with the manga's theme.

Actually, I would've been fine if Sasuke, with the asspulls of moves, beat the 4 Kages and start causing havoc in Konoha because it will make not only the series engaging once again, and make Sasuke an interesting villain but also gives Naruto an actual purpose to fight and redeem Sasuke from the darkness and connect the dots from the stuff way back in Part 1.

But ever since the chapter when Sasuke reunited with Itachi, it just bring to my conclusion that Sasuke is a "wishy-washy" character. The boy has enough material and development as it is and yet Kishimoto just keep shoving it along with more Uchiha stuff down our throats when he should had focused on others (one is his main star, the other is you-know-who who is fair and says "Shannaro!"). And why did I consider Sasuke wishy-washy? Someone said he flips back and forth in terms of actions and personality. This, I don't like because it will confuse people who follow consistency. You focus on a goal but then all of the sudden changes your mind? What the f-ing hell do you want to do?!

And this chapter just trumps it all. Once again, Kishimoto just made Sasuke looking like a good guy once more and cool again... it basically ruins the potential final battle for him and Naruto. And now what does this mean for Naruto himself? All of that work went for nothing again?! So what on earth they gonna fight for now? It better not be the Hokage position because that will be so stupid.

Another peeve for this chapter: Orochimaru... Kishimoto, how could you? We're now giving Orochimaru, your best villain of the series, sympathy as well?! He wants redemption too?! I know if he want Madara as the final villain but still... it doesn't make any sense.

And I don't care for Sasukarin. Already had a feeling that Karin was coming back to the team. Should've been better if she slaps/punch/kick Sasuke first then proclaim to tag along and then have Sasuke apologize to make it better.

I really don't have nothing else for this chapter because I already dislike Sasuke as it is. It has further more dislike towards the character.

That reminds me... Sasuke is immensely popular in Japan, so I think his popularity is a big factor to this chapter because the fans wants Sasuke to be good as soon as he can, no matter what.

[HauntedCake]

Well...

SasuKarin are now newfound allies for NS

Karin has thrown away all self respect.

I agree with dark about the lover nin letter. That's gonna come and bite us NS fans in the ass when Sakura see's the all new and improved SASUKE-KUNN

Pierott studios trolling SS???



Kishi accepts all challenges for more SS asspulling

[YukiNozomi212]

Ok, for months now I've just been lurking here enjoying myself reading all your POVs. LOL This is my first time actually speaking out my thoughts, and sorry if someone already shared my views in this post but i just didn't feel like reading those LONG LONG LONG pages of theories in this thread hehehe...

But I think I figured out the solution to peace that could also serve as a real plot twist (since Kishi just loves them so much).
The problem with the Hokages as it’s been stated is that one is never perfect (no body alone is, they always need others to fill in their blanks). Just like Hashirama being too naive, only to have Tobirama balance that problem out. Same goes for Hiruzen and Danzo. Dark and Light, Compassionate and Pragmatic, Merciful and Austere, etc.

Point is: haven't you noticed that the reason these Hokages were having problems is that they had to deal with them alone? (Let’s be reminded on what Itachi tried to tell Naruto about something similar to this case as well) I’m basically bringing the concept on why most kingdoms have a King AND Queen to rule side by side. 'Cause the two can balance each other out, guide, help, and complete one another. The key to peace would be BALANCE. (No one on earth can ever truly understand the other; no matter how hard you try as Nagato already pointed out) The world can't just focus on Yin alone, or on Yang. The main concept of Yin and Yang is bringing the two together for balance and peace. And since Sasuke represents Yin, while Naruto is Yang, it seems (based on current events) that as an ending the two might fight for the title Hokage with the plot twist of having TWO simultaneous Hokages ruling for the first time: Hence, having a balanced peaceful rule in years. (Eventually, others might follow their lead too)


I don’t like it, but there you go… If Sasuke can be redeemed this easily, with no realistic consequences or plot flow, then anything can happen by Kishi’s rules. It would've been better if he ended up a wanderer if he had to live and be redeemed. At least then he could form his own village for his “clan restoration” plans. BRING ON THE BAAAABBEES!!


Overall, this chapter really got me hyped up! Just... not liking the direction the plot is heading. BUT CAN'T WAIT FOR NEXT CHAPTER!

[Nate River]

I posted this earlier but it was ignored.


I'm repeating it in the hopes that those of you who identify themselves as caring about Karin might answer a question for me....

Considering how damaged Karin is (and always has been) and her chosen allegiances, is it possible you're projecting a temperament and psychopathology onto her that she doesn't possess and isn't capable of possessing? You guys are so indignant about Sasuke's behavior on her behalf, expecting her to respond in an emotionally healthy manner -- disregarding the reality that she has never been characterized as a girl who is emotionally stable or accustomed to healthy relationships.

I'm genuinely curious and have to ask why.

I missed the first line where you said "caring about Karin." I don't. Team Not Seven is and is intended as a pejorative for all three of them, but you directed that at me first, so I will answer.

I'm not surprised by this, generally speaking. I expected her to forgive him. I thought it possible that she and the rest would wander with Sasuke or join Konoha at the end. I thought it would suck when either happened, but it's not unexpected. If I thought Kishimoto were trying to show something like you described or that were the intended characterization, I suppose I'd feel better. However, I don't think he's making a special effort to depict an emotionally unstable person who has an unhealthy attachment to a guy who treated her like trash. I think was totally meant to be played straight.

What happen wasn't unexpected, just crap.

Team Not Seven, to me, is handled like he has no freaking idea what to do with them and these scenes isn't arent' different. I tend to believe the stories that they were forced on him because other than the stabbing incident I cannot tell why they were formed or even continue to exist. He often has to just make up crap for them to do in a bid to stay relevant and when he does it often works out poorly.

SasuKarin are now newfound allies for NS

If you are into side shipping, I suppose so. I, for one, don't see it that way.

But that's the way it happens in real life abusive relationships sometimes, too. The women will run to a shelter, to the police or to a friend, but then they end up going back for whatever reason. I'm not saying it makes sense or it's easy to understand, I'm just saying it happens.

And honestly, I never believed Karin was done with Sasuke. Anything is possible -- and she could end up double-crossing or betraying him yet -- but the fact that she so emphatically stated that she was over Sasuke made me think she really wasn't. IDK. We'll see.

Yes it does, and if that were the point, I'd understand. But with Sasuke switching sides and his redemption being inevitable (for some time now), it's hard to imagine that this is where he is going.

[YukiNozomi212]

Wow, if Sasuke turns into the hero and Naruto becomes the villain... That would be really interesting to see.

I'm looking at all you fanfic writers.

kill sakura and let madara brainwash him

This.

[Destiny]

Aaaaaaand I'm done. I am so sick of how females are portrayed in this manga. Kishi seriously needs to take some freaking notes from Fairy Tail. Powerful women working side by side with men??? AND THEY ARE MAIN CHARACTERS?! IMPOSSIBLEEEEE. Ugh. UGH. UGGGH. Damn it, there was so much room for growth.

RANT OVER. See you when Sakura's back in the picture.