54216 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

You know, I have had people argue to me, even in the video I posted where people would be like "Don't try using real world logic in this manga. The story is being made by a writer who can do whatever they want."

I have to say he has a point. I shouldn't use real world ethics in stories. Stories have more logic and understanding and process unlike real life where despite obvious signs of abuse and logic the girl will constantly still love the same man. The same man who hits her and tells her she is useless, but she is still stuck to him making excuses for him and saying "He can change." (I actually know a similar real life moment)
 

I understand that you're a Sakura fan, but she isn't a good developed character. Not in my opinion.
 
She's had three moments in this war. Compared to Naruto and Sasuke and even Kakashi, she is incredibly sidelined.

I am sorry Sushi, but I completely disagree with this on several points.

Sakura may not be the most developed character in this series, but I think she is still one of the top three and is quite possibly the most well developed female character out of them all. Compared to females characters like Hinata, Ino, Ten Ten, even Temari. They are not as developed as they are made out to be. The only reason why Temari, I believe, seems well developed is not because she is developed, but because she didn't go through the same things Sakura has nor faced the kind of conflicts. She is not really developed, just more succinct with her story.

Sakura's story is expanded throughout the entire manga from Part 1 all the way to now. It's like saying Naruto isn't a well developed character because he is still hung up on Sasuke which he hasn't move on from. (Actually, that might be a legitimate argument)

If Sakura isn't well developed, do you feel Hinata is? Ino? Temari? Ten Ten? Compared to Naruto and Sasuke, you're right she isn't as developed as they are, but then if I compare Sakura to the rest of the cast of characters she is more developed than about 95% of the other cast. I do think however she is more developed than kakashi though as he only got development now. Until it was revealed that Tobi was Obito, we knew nothing of Kakashi for a long time. We knew very few details and such.

I am sorry, but basing Sakura's development on what is happening recently is not really fair compared to say the whole manga. If that's the case then I could argue that kakashi wasn't a well-developed character because we didn't know anything about him at all in part 1. Hell, look how long for us to learn about Rin and Obito from his perspective.

Of course, Sakura's story, like Sasuke's and Naruto's is supposed to expand throughout the entire story and not just being "My entire life in few chapters." Which seems to be the case with Neji who was big in part 1, became nothing for a while, and then died out of nowhere. Again, not well developed....just more succinct.

[Psychox]

You know, I have had people argue to me, even in the video I posted where people would be like "Don't try using real world logic in this manga. The story is being made by a writer who can do whatever they want."

I have to say he has a point. I shouldn't use real world ethics in stories. Stories have more logic and understanding and process unlike real life where despite obvious signs of abuse and logic the girl will constantly still love the same man. The same man who hits her and tells her she is useless, but she is still stuck to him making excuses for him and saying "He can change." (I actually know a similar real life moment)

I guess that makes two of us .. Unfortunately  , those situations end up bad to worse in some cases , there is an answer why cant a girl move on, its like this she will stay by his side to ''fix'' him by doing so she destroys herself .. And after that well , its not a picture to be admired at. 

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Sakura's indecisiveness.She got like what 3 reality checks about sasuke already, i do hope she clears her mind in upcoming chapters.

I think it's more Kishi, because Sakura indecisiveness comes to the point that it's not natural anymore, he tried to kill her three times and did a lot of bad stuff to her, when in counterpart we have Naruto who was at her side, she realized that on the confession but still loved Sasuke, the problem is Kishi already realized that he cant keep going on with Sakura loving Sasuke because it's forced so he decided to hide it and make suspense.

[sushi.]

James; If you compare Sakura to the side-characters, then of course she stomps them.

 

But a side character has a side character development, a main character has a main character development. A main character has higher standards, which is why I only compare her with the other main three, being; Sasuke, Naruto and Kakashi.

 

I didn't say what chapters I was basing my opinion on. In my opinion, everything went downhill after the summit arc. That is two hundred chapters ago, not something I would call "recently".

 

About Kakashi.. I'll say his big moments in part 2, before Obito came around - were his involvement in the Kakuzu and Pain arcs, he even got to meet his father again. He got a little story for himself between the time-skips too, that's not nothing.

 

I completely agree about Neji.

Edited by sushi., 14 August 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

The thing about Sakura love life that it involve her two teammates. Her first interest (Sasuke) is shown only to lust after Sasuke where this is very lacking with Naruto. Her second interest (Naruto) is shown her heart, warming up to him. She discerns his feelings and goals. This is something the Sakura, since Part 1 has failed Sasuke. The only time she had cared for him and his goals is that when hus seriously injured and that bench scene, stated that she wanted to leave with him and help him kill Itachi. 

 

Even though her feelings for Sasuke is nothing but lust, I thinking it could jeopardize NS just a bit. After watching The Road to Ninja movie and read chapter 632, Sakura has final shown a bit of her lustful-self from part one in that movie when she and Sasuke were alone (the scenes with AU Sasuke visiting her at her apartment) blushing even though she seemed to be in control of herself. Now we see something very similar in chapter 632 when Sasuke landed next to her and she reacted by exclaiming his name, Sasuke-kun!" She was slightly blushing too  .

 

But when Naruto is around her or with her, her raging hormones and lusty desires are easily evaporated as if it never happened, but her guard is dropped around Sasuke when Naruto is not there to support her. I do feel happy that Sakura supports Naruto over Sasuke now when they are together. Alone with Sasuke is another story, which is something I'm not looking forward to. Overall, Sakura likes both her teammates romantically. Unfortunately for her, she can only pick one. NS for the WIN!!! 

Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 14 August 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

James; If you compare Sakura to the side-characters, then of course she stomps them.

 

But a side character has a side character development, a main character has a main character development. A main character has higher standards, which is why I only compare her with the other main three, being; Sasuke, Naruto and Kakashi.

 

I didn't say what chapters I was basing my opinion on. In my opinion, everything went downhill after the summit arc. That is two hundred chapters ago, not something I would call "recently".

 

About Kakashi.. I'll say his big moments in part 2, before Obito came around - were his involvement in the Kakuzu and Pain arcs, he even got to meet his father again. He got a little story for himself between the time-skips too, that's not nothing.

 

I completely agree about Neji.

1st: Bolded:
Yeah, but you're comparing Sakura to Naruto who is the main character, who is supposed to have the most development out of any character in the show. That's a poor comparison in itself. You also compare her to Sasuke who also is the main character of the show. And I know people keep saying "Sakura is a main character too," but again "A main character" not  "THE main character" which makes a huge difference in the world of writing. She still has one of the highest development out of any character in the show and it is supposed to be from Naruto's perspective anyway. There were a couple of times where even Sasuke got all this attention and Naruto got none. So does Sasuke have more development than Naruto does?

Actually, to be fair and blunt, I wouldn't even call Sasuke's story "development" as his story really just shifts to the main story. He plays what role the story wants him to play and he alters with it occasionally flipping sporadically to the point of asspulls and such. Is this really development? I don't really think so. Sure some plot devices are, but at times it seems like those plot devices were only to solve a problem that really didn't involve Sasuke really being there. Was it really necessary for Sasuke to go to Konoha and talk to the original Hokage's? Not really. Some even think it was just a plot device because Kishi couldn;t do the Naruto vs Sasuke fight while Obito was still around fighting. In fact, I find it rather silly how that story arc played out for him and how easy he flipped sides again, only to know that he will flip again with a new motive.

So at times, Sasuke didn't really "develop" into what he is, he just turned that way because he had to be.

2nd Bolded:
You kind of did actually

I understand that you're a Sakura fan, but she isn't a good developed character. Not in my opinion.
 
She's had three moments in this war. Compared to Naruto and Sasuke and even Kakashi, she is incredibly sidelined.

Yeah in the war, she didn't have as many moments, but in the entire manga she has had a substantial amount. Even more than Kakashi who had maybe 3 moments in the entire manga. Obito had a more developed story than either Sasuke or Kakashi too, but it wasn't touched upon until later in the manga. So, I mean...what exactly are we talking about here in terms of "development." I could spread someone's development across a story, but I can also drop said development in one sitting when I feel the time was right. We knew nothing of Obito, Rin, and "Tobi" until the war.

3rd Bolded:
Are we looking at quantity or quality on this? For Sakura, you seem to look at quantity and think "Well she only had three moments in the war and so she is not well developed," but on the reverse claimed that kakashi is more developed even though he only had three major moments in the entire manga. So I am not sure what counts here.

Naruto's development got a little erractic too and has at times went OoC just to give another character development. So even though Naruto got the most, is it really the best? What about Sasuke's. He got a lot too, but is it the best? I would argue no for the Sasuke one.

I have to really disagree on your opinion on this though when looking at like this.
Quantity wise: Yes, Sakura is rather sidelined more often than not for what she is.
Quality wise: She is probably in the top three best developed characters with actual progression, no real OoC moments, and overall a well rounded story life. Plus, her story is not done yet and chances are she will play a bigger role later down the road. So how do we factor that in?

What about moments that characters go through that don't really go anywhere? What I mean is, that it really serves no purpose for the character in question. For example, Naruto talking to Hinata and saving her in the war. Do we count that as Naruto development? I am not sure, but to me I don't count that for Naruto seeing as it was really more for Hinata development and Naruto just remained the same. It didn't make Naruto smarter or show him a guiding hand.

I am wondering what would be a more developed character?
Character A who goes through 50 moments in the story where nothing changes.
or
Character B who goes through 10 moments with them learning a lesson, growing as a person, and changing into the final character result of the experiences they went through
or
Character C who has 10 really defining moments, but also 30 moments that are random and really serve no purpose to further alter the character, with the 10 moments spread across the length of the story while the other 30 moments are mashed in the middle of said 10 moments to spread them out.
 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 14 August 2013 - 11:52 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

1st: Bolded:
Yeah, but you're comparing Sakura to Naruto who is the main character, who is supposed to have the most development out of any character in the show. That's a poor comparison in itself. You also compare her to Sasuke who also is the main character of the show. And I know people keep saying "Sakura is a main character too," but again "A main character" not  "THE main character" which makes a huge difference in the world of writing. She still has one of the highest development out of any character in the show and it is supposed to be from Naruto's perspective anyway. There were a couple of times where even Sasuke got all this attention and Naruto got none. So does Sasuke have more development than Naruto does?

Actually, to be fair and blunt, I wouldn't even call Sasuke's story "development" as his story really just shifts to the main story. He plays what role the story wants him to play and he alters with it occasionally flipping sporadically to the point of asspulls and such. Is this really development? I don't really think so. Sure some plot devices are, but at times it seems like those plot devices were only to solve a problem that really didn't involve Sasuke really being there. Was it really necessary for Sasuke to go to Konoha and talk to the original Hokage's? Not really. In fact, I find it rather silly how that story arc played out for him and how easy he flipped sides again, only to know that he will flip again with a new motive.

2nd Bolded:
You kind of did actually

Yeah in the war, she didn't have as many moments, but in the entire manga she has had a substantial amount. Even more than Kakashi who had maybe 3 moments in the entire manga. Obito had a more developed story than either Sasuke or Kakashi too, but it wasn't touched upon until later in the manga.

3rd Bolded:
Are we looking at quantity or quality on this? For Sakura, you seem to look at quantity and think "Well she only had three moments in the war and so she is not well developed," but on the reverse claimed that kakashi is more developed even though he only had three major moments in the entire manga. So I am not sure what counts here.

Naruto's development got a little erractic too and has at times went OoC just to give another character development. So even though Naruto got the most, is it really the best? What about Sasuke's. He got a lot too, but is it the best? I would argue no for the Sasuke one.

I have to really disagree on your opinion on this though when looking at like this.
Quantity wise: Yes, Sakura is rather sidelined more often than not for what she is.
Quality wise: She is probably in the top three best developed characters with actual progression, no real OoC moments, and overall a well rounded story life. Plus, her story is not done yet and chances are she will play a bigger role later down the road. So how do we factor that in?

What about moments that characters go through that don't really go anywhere? What I mean is, that it really serves no purpose for the character in question. For example, Naruto talking to Hinata and saving her in the war. Do we count that as Naruto development? I am not sure, but to me I don't count that for Naruto seeing as it was really more for Hinata development and Naruto just remained the same. It didn't make Naruto smarter or show him a guiding hand.

I am wondering what would be a more developed character?
Character A who goes through 50 moments in the story where nothing changes.
or
Character B who goes through 10 moments with them learning a lesson, growing as a person, and changing into the final character result of the experiences they went through
or
Character C who has 10 really defining moments, but also 30 moments that are random and really serve no purpose to further alter the character, with the 10 moments spread across the length of the story while the other 30 moments are mashed in the middle of said 10 moments to spread them out.
 

Good post anyway, but i'd have to disagree here, what kind of quality you're implying on Sakura?

I mean she was an underdog and went to Sannin level but does it had quality?

She went from underdog to Sannin level in one chapter, Kishi just said "she was saving up chakra on her forehead for the whole 3 years" her powerup is similar to when Sasuke when he spawn asspulls jutsus.
Moreover if she knew the time the seal would filled up why she had thoughts she was useless and weak when she knew that someday she would be stronger?

I dont even going to touch when she said that Naruto was a fool for loving her but what about Sasuke?Yeah double standard.

 

My opinion is : On development she had a good quality until the point Kishimoto started forcing things on her.(asspulls).

Her development didnt come from training but rather a flashback who comes out and gives a powerup right when Sasuke returns and Team 7 reunites for her to take the spot and have a "development".

Sakura was a great character quality-wise but then we got asspulls into her, we have her love for Sasuke which is an asspull and her powerup which is another asspull.(it was good on NS standpoint but i cant deny it is an asspull).

 

Her development for me went downhill on the summit that's all.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 August 2013 - 11:55 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Good post anyway, but i'd have to disagree here, what kind of quality you're implying on Sakura?

I mean she was an underdog and went to Sannin level but does it had quality?

She went from underdog to Sannin level in one chapter, Kishi just said "she was saving up chakra on her forehead for the whole 3 years" her powerup is similar to when Sasuke when he spawn asspulls jutsus.
Moreover if she knew the time the seal would filled up why she had thoughts she was useless and weak when she knew that someday she would be stronger?

I dont even going to touch when she said that Naruto was a fool for loving her but what about Sasuke?Yeah double standard.

 

My opinion is : On development she had a good quality until the point Kishimoto started forcing things on her.(asspulls).

Her development didnt come from training but rather a flashback who comes out and gives a powerup right when Sasuke returns and Team 7 reunites for her to take the spot and have a "development".

Sakura was a great character quality-wise but then we got asspulls into her, we have her love for Sasuke which is an asspull and her powerup which is another asspull.(it was good on NS standpoint but i cant deny it is an asspull).

Sasuke is even worse than that then. Everything you pointed out Sasuke has done ten fold with no training or anything. So does that mean his development is piss-poor? Some actually do say yes. That's why he is considered the king of "asspulls." Sasuke is only seen training maybe once with the rest of it either implied or magically given to him through his eyes. Even Naruto's training has some of it shrouded behind ambiguity. We didn't follow him around for the two years did we? He just came back and was "ta-da" more powerful and smarter. Remained the same mostly personality wise, but that was developed over the course of the manga as well.

Again, if you are going to criticize Sakura, you have to criticize every character and how they have developed taking into considering what role they play and how their development was written and spread out through out the manga. If a character has few (Let's say 7) moments, but each moment serves as a important purpose in giving that character major development in their persona, does that character have less development than a character that has 50 moments with 10 being actual development and 30 moments with them just looking pretty?

Some characters are more succinct than others and thus don't need 50 moments to develop them. So how can you define them? How can you also compare characters who have finished development to characters who are still developing?  That's like trying to say that the better artist is the kid drawing a dinosaur with a crayon in one 5 minute sitting than a master painter who takes time to paint a huge mural that you know will take a few weeks. They are both artist in their own right, but the kid is not a better artist cause "he finished quicker."

Going by what you said, Dark, Sasuke is the worst developed character in the series if we are to really look at that way.

Bolded:
Read my post again. I explained how I look at Sakura's development quite clearly.

We also have this fact that not all development is "good" and some affect characters more negative than positive. How do we count these? Do we give a point because development is development or do we take a point away saying "You can't finish a race by walking backwards?"

Personality and actual "character" development is a little bit trickier because to develop means something has to change. What if a certain scene is required for such a change? You can't just change the character for no reason out of nowhere. There has to be a catalyst to do that (even a stupid one if need be.)

So again, quantity vs quality. Two characters have the same amount of developing moments, but while one is spread throughout the story the other is put upfront right on the table in one sitting. So who is more developed?
 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 15 August 2013 - 12:20 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Sasuke is even worse than that then. Everything you pointed out Sasuke has done ten fold with no training or anything. So does that mean his development is piss-poor? Some actually do say yes. That's why he is considered the king of "asspulls." Sasuke is only seen training maybe once with the rest of it either implied or magically given to him through his eyes. Even Naruto's training has some of it shrouded behind ambiguity. We didn't follow him around for the two years did we? He just came back and was "ta-da" more powerful and smarter. Remained the same mostly personality wise, but that was developed over the course of the manga as well.

Again, if you are going to criticize Sakura, you have to criticize every character and how they have developed taking into considering what role they play and how their development was written and spread out through out the manga. If a character has few moments, but each moment serves as a important purpose in giving that character major development in their persona, does that character have less development than a character that has 50 moments with 10 being actual development and 30 moments with them just looking pretty?

Some characters are more succinct than others and thus don't need 50 moments to develop them. So how can you define them? How can also compare character who have finished development to characters who are still developing?  That's like trying to say that the better artist is the kid drawing a dinosaur with a crayon in one 5 minute sitting than a master painter who takes time to paint a huge mural that you know will take a few weeks. They are both artist in their own right, but the kid is not a better artist cause "he finished quicker."

Going by what you said, Dark, Sasuke is the worst developed character in the series if we are to really look at that way.

Bolded:
Read my post again. I explained how I look at Sakura's development quite clearly.
 

Ah i did read, i know Sasuke is the worst developed but what about Sakura, what i meant is that what doesnt make her a great developed character is because asspulls block her "development" when that happens is because something is wrong.
I mean Kabuto has the best development on this series for me, i dont see any asspull on him and he progressed naturally. ( he slowly progressed into a villain, he was beaten by everyone and slowly worked up for power and unveiled his plan)
Sakura on other hand we has several blocks with no reason.

I mean naturally she should had fall in love wiht Naruto on the same moment where she realized all the things Naruto did to her, she does but then she loves Sasuke, i mean what's the point of that? It lead to something that doesnt make any sense, Sasuke tries to kill her two times in a row and kishi "as expected she still ... Sasuke" Dafuq man. (this is not called a real progression, it's called block)

 

Later he powerup, she took only one chapter pratically to go from her level to Sannin level, her seal fuelled up right on the time that she had to show up her skills.

She had a great development until Kishi asspulled her, which is why for me Sasuke has the worst development on the series, not powerwise but his flips and the last part "erase my past wants to kill Naruto".

 

Naruto/Sasuke bromance, Sakura forced love on Sasuke, Hashi/Madara bromance, Kages being blamed as the responsibles for the disasters on the world, Uchiha being the "love" clan, Obito's obssession on Rin...

 

To finish up, Sakura does have a good development because her development progressed naturally until the summit, it got obvious that she cant love Naruto due to "Pairing Drama".

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 15 August 2013 - 12:21 AM.

[sushi.]

1st: Bolded:
Yeah, but you're comparing Sakura to Naruto who is the main character, who is supposed to have the most development out of any character in the show. That's a poor comparison in itself. You also compare her to Sasuke who also is the main character of the show. And I know people keep saying "Sakura is a main character too," but again "A main character" not  "THE main character" which makes a huge difference in the world of writing. She still has one of the highest development out of any character in the show and it is supposed to be from Naruto's perspective anyway. There were a couple of times where even Sasuke got all this attention and Naruto got none. So does Sasuke have more development than Naruto does?

Actually, to be fair and blunt, I wouldn't even call Sasuke's story "development" as his story really just shifts to the main story. He plays what role the story wants him to play and he alters with it occasionally flipping sporadically to the point of asspulls and such. Is this really development? I don't really think so. Sure some plot devices are, but at times it seems like those plot devices were only to solve a problem that really didn't involve Sasuke really being there. Was it really necessary for Sasuke to go to Konoha and talk to the original Hokage's? Not really. In fact, I find it rather silly how that story arc played out for him and how easy he flipped sides again, only to know that he will flip again with a new motive.

2nd Bolded:
You kind of did actually

Yeah in the war, she didn't have as many moments, but in the entire manga she has had a substantial amount. Even more than Kakashi who had maybe 3 moments in the entire manga. Obito had a more developed story than either Sasuke or Kakashi too, but it wasn't touched upon until later in the manga.

3rd Bolded:
Are we looking at quantity or quality on this? For Sakura, you seem to look at quantity and think "Well she only had three moments in the war and so she is not well developed," but on the reverse claimed that kakashi is more developed even though he only had three major moments in the entire manga. So I am not sure what counts here.

Naruto's development got a little erractic too and has at times went OoC just to give another character development. So even though Naruto got the most, is it really the best? What about Sasuke's. He got a lot too, but is it the best? I would argue no for the Sasuke one.

I have to really disagree on your opinion on this though when looking at like this.
Quantity wise: Yes, Sakura is rather sidelined more often than not for what she is.
Quality wise: She is probably in the top three best developed characters with actual progression, no real OoC moments, and overall a well rounded story life. Plus, her story is not done yet and chances are she will play a bigger role later down the road. So how do we factor that in?

What about moments that characters go through that don't really go anywhere? What I mean is, that it really serves no purpose for the character in question. For example, Naruto talking to Hinata and saving her in the war. Do we count that as Naruto development? I am not sure, but to me I don't count that for Naruto seeing as it was really more for Hinata development and Naruto just remained the same. It didn't make Naruto smarter or show him a guiding hand.

I am wondering what would be a more developed character?
Character A who goes through 50 moments in the story where nothing changes.
or
Character B who goes through 10 moments with them learning a lesson, growing as a person, and changing into the final character result of the experiences they went through
or
Character C who has 10 really defining moments, but also 30 moments that are random and really serve no purpose to further alter the character, with the 10 moments spread across the length of the story while the other 30 moments are mashed in the middle of said 10 moments to spread them out.
 

First of all, where did I bash Sakura's character development?

 

The series have a litte group of main characters, consisting of Team 7. I wanted to include Naruto too, not as an individual, but as a part of this group. Of course Sakura isn't the main character, but Sasuke isn't either. At least he shouldn't be. The story is briefly about the two boys, but only one can be the main character.

 

About the 2nd bolded; I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but just because I mentioned that reason doesn't mean it's the only reason. I just wanted to be a little spesific, but I see now that I wasn't.

 

I agree about the quantity and quality, but the characters need a bit of both. Naruto and Sasuke has this, although they both fall two steps back sometimes. What's important to me is that we can see this instead of speculate it. Not saying all panels ofc, that would be impossible. It might not be growth, but Kishi is trying. Which is something I have felt we haven't seen from Sakura for a while. I gotta say; Sakura has grown the most, but for the last 2 years, Kishimoto has left so much of her to our imagination. There was so much he could've done with Sakura, but didn't. I think even Slextrem collected a list of possibilities. It is getting better now, so I can only cross my fingers.

 

Even if Sakura has grown the most, she hasn't developed the most. Growth is a form of development, but it's not the only aspect of it. Development is a change, for better or worse and we have seen this with other characters more than Sakura. Sasuke goes back and forth, but it is development because it adds more to his character, it builds him as a person.

 

Sakura too has fallen back a step, in the Kage Summit. When she realizes how twisted Sasuke has become, she leaves it all up to Naruto. I hope she changes her mind and directly or indirectly helps him with the conflict.

 

Alright, Darkrerst; What part of Sakura's love for Sasuke is an asspull?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Alright, Darkrerst; What part of Sakura's love for Sasuke is an asspull?

Look at the flashbacks, compare to what she says to Naruto then goes back and read "he's a fool to love someome like me" then look at how bad Sasuke is, then your mind blow.

 

 

 

I agree about the quantity and quality, but the characters need a bit of both. Naruto and Sasuke has this, although they both fall two steps back sometimes.

615 i rage when i remembe rthat, 10 chapters earlier he says "i wont give up coz a lot of ppl sacrificed their lives for me" 10 chapters later "615", Neji dies, Naruto thinks about giving up, Hinata does the speech, Kyuubi says the same thing Naruto did on 10 chapters back, Naruto recovers and then thanks Neji and Hinata.
Sometimes I sincerely wish he could do stuff naturally.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 15 August 2013 - 12:33 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Ah i did read, i know Sasuke is the worst developed but what about Sakura, what i meant is that what doesnt make her a great developed character is because asspulls block her "development" when that happens is because something is wrong.
I mean Kabuto has the best development on this series for me, i dont see any asspull on him and he progressed naturally. ( he slowly progressed into a villain, he was beaten by everyone and slowly worked up for power and unveiled his plan)
Sakura on other hand we has several blocks with no reason.

I mean naturally she should had fall in love wiht Naruto on the same moment where she realized all the things Naruto did to her, she does but then she loves Sasuke, i mean what's the point of that? It lead to something that doesnt make any sense, Sasuke tries to kill her two times in a row and kishi "as expected she still ... Sasuke" Dafuq man. (this is not called a real progression, it's called block)

 

Later he powerup, she took only one chapter pratically to go from her level to Sannin level, her seal fuelled up right on the time that she had to show up her skills.

She had a great development until Kishi asspulled her, which is why for me Sasuke has the worst development on the series, not powerwise but his flips and the last part "erase my past wants to kill Naruto".

 

Naruto/Sasuke bromance, Sakura forced love on Sasuke, Hashi/Madara bromance, Kages being blamed as the responsibles for the disasters on the world, Uchiha being the "love" clan, Obito's obssession on Rin...

 

To finish up, Sakura does have a good development because her development progressed naturally until the summit, it got obvious that she cant love Naruto due to "Pairing Drama".

Block or postponing?

What blocked Sasuke from destroying Konoha now? He had several chances to destroy the place like he wanted and get revenge, but he never took it upon himself even in the most opportune times (all the soldiers are away, right? Imagine them coming back to find their loved one killed and Sasuke standing in the blood. A perfect reflection of the Uchiha massacre.) One time he was stopped by Itachi just randomly out of nowhere shows up. We have him talking to the Hokages and asking them to tell him a bedtime story and all of a sudden, he doesn't want to destroy the village, he wants to rule it.

We also have Naruto who postponed talking to Sakura about his feelings for her and also avoids the subject with Hinata as well. Nothing really stopping him either and he had chances to do the very thing several times. Naruto even went OoC in chapter 615 which came out of nowhere and is a big red flag. He is also still very hung up on Sasuke as well, but is this really a block or a story element?

What if the hang up on Sasuke for both Naruto and Sakura was completely done on purpose? We all know it is. So again, how can we count this? These two characters have developed in every other way besides this one major story element. We know that this is the last conflict Sakura and Naruto have to face and while they could have dealt with this in the past many times, Kishi chose not to because he wanted to save it for the end. So, I have to say I can't really count this cause this was a conscious decision by the writer himself to do it this way.

So what we just proved is that all these characters are guilty of it somewhere down the line and all for the sake of nothing, but pure drama. However, this doesn't mean Sakura is poorly developed. Like I said, she still is one of the top three most developed characters in this manga and I feel is still better developed than Sasuke whose development is a roller coaster of drama and personality flips.

In fact, Sasuke is the worst developed out of any character.

Here is my list of best developed characters.
1. Obito
2. Naruto
3. Sakura.

4. Kakashi

...

...

...

67. Sasuke.

No offense to anyone, but how come everyone criticizes Sakura so heavily but never want to use the same on other characters OR even hand waves the idea of using the logic against said characters? I'm sorry, but the logic behind this has me scratching my head. Why is everyone, including NS, so harsh on Sakura? Is it because the NS fandom want Sakura to be the best and shove it in the NH fans face to prove that she is not just another pretty face unlike Hinata?

 

First of all, where did I bash Sakura's character development?

 

What? Where did I say that?

As for the rest to what you put, read above. Same response really.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 15 August 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[sushi.]

What? Where did I say that?

As for the rest to what you put, read above. Same response really.

Oops I thought I read bashing instead of basing, I just read it wrong.

 

About what you said, the most developed character isn't necessarily the best. Take Sasuke and Sakura for example. Sasuke is the most developed of the two in my opinion, but Sakura is the best. Sasuke's inconstistensy and flip-flopping drags him down so much his development is bad, even though there is a lot of it.

 

I guess I'm strict on Sakura because I care about her. She's my nr2 favourite character, so I subconsciously expect a lot of her, as much as the other main characters at least. I'm neutral to Sasuke, so I don't care about his faults although I can spot them.

Edited by sushi., 15 August 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Block or postponing?

What blocked Sasuke from destroying Konoha now? He had several chances to destroy the place like he wanted and get revenge, but he never took it upon himself even in the most opportune times (all the soldiers are away, right? Imagine them coming back to find their loved one killed and Sasuke standing in the blood. A perfect reflection of the Uchiha massacre.) One time he was stopped by Itachi just randomly out of nowhere shows up. We have him talking to the Hokages and asking them to tell him a bedtime story and all of a sudden, he doesn't want to destroy the village, he wants to rule it.

We also have Naruto who postponed talking to Sakura about his feelings for her and also avoids the subject with Hinata as well. Nothing really stopping him either and he had chances to do the very thing several times. Naruto even went OoC in chapter 615 which came out of nowhere and is a big red flag. He is also still very hung up on Sasuke as well, but is this really a block or a story element?

What if the hang up on Sasuke for both Naruto and Sakura was completely done on purpose? We all know it is. So again, how can we count this? These two characters have developed in every other way besides this one major story element. We know that this is the last conflict Sakura and Naruto have to face and while they could have dealt with this in the past many times, Kishi chose not to because he wanted to save it for the end. So, I have to say I can't really count this cause this was a conscious decision by the writer himself to do it this way.

So what we just proved is that all these characters are guilty of it somewhere down the line and all for the sake of nothing, but pure drama. However, this doesn't mean Sakura is poorly developed. Like I said, she still is one of the top three most developed characters in this manga and I feel is still better developed than Sasuke whose development is a roller coaster of drama and personality flips.

In fact, Sasuke is the worst developed out of any character.

Here is my list of best developed characters.
1. Obito
2. Naruto
3. Sakura.

4. Kakashi

...

...

...

67. Sasuke.

No offense to anyone, but how come everyone criticizes Sakura so heavily but never want to use the same on other characters OR even hand waves the idea of using the logic against said characters? I'm sorry, but the logic behind this has me scratching my head. Why is everyone, including NS, so harsh on Sakura? Is it because the NS fandom want Sakura to be the best and shove it in the NH fans face to prove that she is not just another pretty face unlike Hinata?

 

 

What? Where did I say that?

As for the rest to what you put, read above. Same response really.

First of all how it was a block when it's stated he sees Naruto as a rival, Sasuke real motives was his rivalry with Naruto and how he saw himself as weak which became the driven force of why he went with Orochimaru.

I mean what blocks him from destroying the village, the answer is simple, he wants to see Naruto fail and crush his ideals, he wants to kill Naruto and then he will destroy the village.
Now question the same with Sakura, what blocks her from Loving Naruto?

It's difficult because it needs a moment where Naruto has to be near death or he simply needs to compliment her foreheard? Instead of realizing everything Naruto did to her and looking deep insider her heart how important he is to her life, which happened and the result was the whole "as expected she still... Sasuke".

 

What blocks Naruto?

Everyone knows he doesnt want to force his feelings on Sakura, so he hide it.

 

I ws talking specifically about Sakura, and other characters has the same reasons aswell, Hinata is one of them but i wont push this subject.

About the bolded, then it damages it's development, you're not blocking the character with the plot itself but avoiding obvious confrontations with "ignore", "stuff that doesnt make sense" and "development that leads to nowhere".

 

I mean Sasuke almost killed Karin, her first reaction was she giving him a hug and turning it into a comic scene, because he didnt knew what to do with Karin.

Anyway reinforcing what i said, Sakura had a great development until Kishi started forcing those stuff, her love for Sasuke has no reason to stand still.

I know he wants to save it for the end but he did it poorly and damaged the development of a lot of characters and NS aswell.

 

HUE he cant even hold Sakura's love for Sasuke because of the inconsistence with the reality checks and was forced to hide it.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 15 August 2013 - 01:33 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Oops I thought I read bashing instead of basing, I just read it wrong.

 

About what you said, the most developed character isn't necessarily the best. Take Sasuke and Sakura for example. Sasuke is the most developed of the two in my opinion, but Sakura is the best. Sasuke's inconstistensy and flip-flopping drags him down so much his development is bad, even though there is a lot of it.

 

I guess I'm strict on Sakura because I care about her. She's my nr2 favourite character, so I subconsciously expect a lot of her, as much as the other main characters at least. I'm neutral to Sasuke, so I don't care about his faults although I can spot them.

Lmao whoops. XD

Not sure about that one, Sushi. That's both true and false I guess. Even the most developed can be the worst developed. So, you have a point. The rest is matter of opinion which I guess we agree to disagree with. Just saying that really in all honestly a lot of the logic I can apply to all characters who all have been guilty of stuff for the sake of the plot. Sadly, Sasuke more often than not a product of the plot itself. If you know what I mean.

Well, I understand that, but...and not trying to sound like a jerk or anything....but it does explain the disappointment some have when they set their standards very high. Unfortunately, she will never be able to reach those standards even if the rest of the manga is in her perspective. So at times I do wonder if either we set our standards too high for what we want and expect.

@ Dark.
Sorry, but I can apply the very argument on Sakura's behalf as well and I already did.

[Tsubaki]

http://redlit.tumblr...31938137/unfair

 

I think this is one of the best interpretations of  Sakura's confession I ever read and moreover it fits in what Kishimoto said about Sakura "I felt like depicting an honest girl, with a surprisingly stubborn impression." yet I wonder what can this mean for us NaruSaku fans?

 

Based on this nterpretation of  Sakura's confession, what do you think this can mean for the course of the story? Sakura tried to convince herself to love Naruto and she knows he would be better for her but still she wasn't able to forget what she feels for Sasuke? This could be the resolution of the Sakura's feelings that  we were waiting for?! what that might mean?

[Hanabi]

Here is my list of best developed characters.
1. Obito
2. Naruto
3. Sakura.

4. Kakashi

...

...

...

67. Sasuke.

 

Rofl at sasuke's rank. But how is Obito at the top of your list? His reason for killing his family, the whole of konoha is rin, rin, rin.

[arian_rad]

http://redlit.tumblr...31938137/unfair
 
I think this is one of the best interpretations of  Sakura's confession I ever read and moreover it fits in what Kishimoto said about Sakura "I felt like depicting an honest girl, with a surprisingly stubborn impression." yet I wonder what can this mean for us NaruSaku fans?
 
Based on this nterpretation of  Sakura's confession, what do you think this can mean for the course of the story? Sakura tried to convince herself to love Naruto and she knows he would be better for her but still she wasn't able to forget what she feels for Sasuke? This could be the resolution of the Sakura's feelings that  we were waiting for?! what that might mean?

That is before the whole events of the summit arc even took place between her and sasuke and she already knew Naruto was the better choice instead of Sasuke but she still loved Sasuke at that point. Simple. That whole event acted as a wake up call and it shows her distrust in sasuke as he is back now. I'm guessing at this point she knows better than everyone that the sasuke she thinks she fell in love with is all gone even though the lingering feelings are definitely there. I'm guessing that we are all waiting to witness the moment she moves on from Sasuke. Her feelings for Sasuke have honestly been ass-pulled so hard just to create drama within the pairing fandoms. I would personally like to see sasusaku end before any NaruSaku moment actually happens in the future and with the way things are going with Sasuke, I'm sure we will have the answer soon enough. She herself knows it's time to move on and you can tell from her face in 635. She's matured and knows what actually happening and she's put her lustful self to the rest. I think she is just waiting for sasuke to backstab naruto or for him to do something out of the ordinary at any moment which is why she is watching them so hard.

[Psychox]

I think it's more Kishi, because Sakura indecisiveness comes to the point that it's not natural anymore, he tried to kill her three times and did a lot of bad stuff to her, when in counterpart we have Naruto who was at her side, she realized that on the confession but still loved Sasuke, the problem is Kishi already realized that he cant keep going on with Sakura loving Sasuke because it's forced so he decided to hide it and make suspense.

It doesn't make any sense indeed .

 

Good post anyway, but i'd have to disagree here, what kind of quality you're implying on Sakura?

I mean she was an underdog and went to Sannin level but does it had quality?

She went from underdog to Sannin level in one chapter, Kishi just said "she was saving up chakra on her forehead for the whole 3 years" her powerup is similar to when Sasuke when he spawn asspulls jutsus.
Moreover if she knew the time the seal would filled up why she had thoughts she was useless and weak when she knew that someday she would be stronger?

I dont even going to touch when she said that Naruto was a fool for loving her but what about Sasuke?Yeah double standard.

 

My opinion is : On development she had a good quality until the point Kishimoto started forcing things on her.(asspulls).

Her development didnt come from training but rather a flashback who comes out and gives a powerup right when Sasuke returns and Team 7 reunites for her to take the spot and have a "development".

Sakura was a great character quality-wise but then we got asspulls into her, we have her love for Sasuke which is an asspull and her powerup which is another asspull.(it was good on NS standpoint but i cant deny it is an asspull).

 

Her development for me went downhill on the summit that's all.

Bolded :Thats the deal , how and why do you love somebody if you cant name a single reason why , not that its needed , but come on at least 1 he made me happy he complemented me every step of the way, he gave me attention he gave me flowers he saved me from my true love not killing me ,I mean dafuq not a single reason . He's cool he's handsome , and ? .. How does that make your heart at peace ? How does that make you feel safe and sound ? Remove the killing attempts the bad treatment and what do we have ? Part 1 Sakura fangirling over Sasuke and he is indifferent , which makes no effing  sense... And that makes the double standard valid. The right man was there all along  who looked  in to her soul made her dreams come true by complementing her forehead .., oh wait there is the reason she loves Sasuke .

Unfortunately , yes i agree it came out of nowhere he had to give her that power before the reunion like after 615-616 when the alliance were given the kyuubi cloak chakra , but that didn't happen and a lot of people are bashing Sakura for that moment . He choose to keep her hidden for 50-70 chapters even more and than that..

After the summit Kishi had everyone regress , she goes to the land of iron confesses to Naruto then 5 chapters after that she loves Sasuke ... Where does that make sense ? Then 540 practically assassinated her character, after the  attempted murders the crappy treatment she still loves Sasuke , why? No one knows .  She could have lended at least a single punch or slap on him ,but she chose a poison Kunai and even then she couldn't bring herself scratching him , which negated the Confession all of the feelings she holds for Naruto and there you have it Kishi has screwed him self up.

 

Ah i did read, i know Sasuke is the worst developed but what about Sakura, what i meant is that what doesnt make her a great developed character is because asspulls block her "development" when that happens is because something is wrong.
Sakura on other hand we has several blocks with no reason.

I mean naturally she should had fall in love wiht Naruto on the same moment where she realized all the things Naruto did to her, she does but then she loves Sasuke, i mean what's the point of that? It lead to something that doesnt make any sense, Sasuke tries to kill her two times in a row and kishi "as expected she still ... Sasuke" Dafuq man. (this is not called a real progression, it's called block)

 

Naruto/Sasuke bromance, Sakura forced love on Sasuke, Hashi/Madara bromance,

To finish up, Sakura does have a good development because her development progressed naturally until the summit, it got obvious that she cant love Naruto due to "Pairing Drama".

Yep , her ''feelings'' for Sasuke are held for Drama which has caused a lot of fights in this fandom till this very day...

 

First of all how it was a block when it's stated he sees Naruto as a rival, Sasuke real motives was his rivalry with Naruto and how he saw himself as weak which became the driven force of why he went with Orochimaru.

I mean what blocks him from destroying the village, the answer is simple, he wants to see Naruto fail and crush his ideals, he wants to kill Naruto and then he will destroy the village.
Now question the same with Sakura, what blocks her from Loving Naruto?

It's difficult because it needs a moment where Naruto has to be near death or he simply needs to compliment her foreheard? Instead of realizing everything Naruto did to her and looking deep insider her heart how important he is to her life, which happened and the result was the whole "as expected she still... Sasuke".

 

What blocks Naruto?

Everyone knows he doesnt want to force his feelings on Sakura, so he hide it.

 

I ws talking specifically about Sakura, and other characters has the same reasons aswell, Hinata is one of them but i wont push this subject.

About the bolded, then it damages it's development, you're not blocking the character with the plot itself but avoiding obvious confrontations with "ignore", "stuff that doesnt make sense" and "development that leads to nowhere".

 

I mean Sasuke almost killed Karin, her first reaction was she giving him a hug and turning it into a comic scene, because he didnt knew what to do with Karin.

Anyway reinforcing what i said, Sakura had a great development until Kishi started forcing those stuff, her love for Sasuke has no reason to stand still.

I know he wants to save it for the end but he did it poorly and damaged the development of a lot of characters and NS aswell.

 

HUE he cant even hold Sakura's love for Sasuke because of the inconsistence with the reality checks and was forced to hide it.

That's what i've been telling people around the fandom but no one believes me and they call me delusional , oh well.
Yep , Naruto has to die for her to realize how important is he to her , isn't it ironic , i mean we all have to loose something to realize how we really love it , but we ignore it before that , but when we loose it we cry about it .. Humans
Mhm, that damaged her character , even that SS girl agreed to that which is unbelievable coming from a fan of that fandom .

He had to hide it to keep the suspense , but some say otherwise ..   oh well

[Hanabi]

Hey guys is this real?