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#5641 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:14 PM

James;

I agree that most NH moments are forced - not all of them, but most.

 

A moment that's not forced is the proud failure speech. I think this was a NH moment, but it was also a failure moment. I think Kishi chose Hinata to give the speech for two reasons; 1. She was also a failure, therefore she could relate to him. 2. It was the first time she expressed how much and why she looked up to him.

 

Moments like the confession and 615 is forced. The coincidental requirements NH needs to have a moment are often people getting hurt/killed, character degradation/OOCness, or in best case they need to be cheered up.

 

There are even moments we don't need. I understand from 633, Hinata loved the feeling of Naruto's hand. Did Kishimoto need to make her beat herself up to bring that moment? Unlike 559, she had no reason to doubt herself then.

--

About the confession, I agree. One thing I would like to add is that Hinata said she wouldn't let Pain lay a finger on Naruto. While that is brave words, her actions in the following panels really was subcionsciously suicidal. I still wonder to this day why she confronted Pain on her own. Why didn't she use Katsuyu's info on Pain to make a plan? Why didn't she tell somebody? I also think her reasoning to get in there was wrong. I think she did it because she is in love with him and he is that special person to her, not because he's a comrade or a fellow leaf ninja.

 

Interesting line of thought, i feel the same when it comes to Sakura's attitude on the summit, i mean she knew the confession would fail and also she knew she could not kill Sasuke, so according to Kakashi's words and Sai, Sakura was also subcionsciously suicidal too?

I mean it's not bad for Hinata, because the situation is almost similar to Sakura's.
Because Hinata knew she didnt stood a chance but Sakura too knew that both the confession and her attempt to kill Sasuke would fail too.

I feel that both of the girl were desperate, Hinata was desperate because she thought Naruto would die, while both has bad part would be for Hinata who thought Naruto would fail, and Sakura for understimanting Naruto.

 

Although the difference was that Hinata was being selfish while Sakura dont.(Hinata jumped in for her own reasons (her love) while Sakura her desire lessen up Naruto's burdens).


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 August 2013 - 08:18 PM.

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#5642 James S Cassidy

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:17 PM

 

Relax, all I'm saying is this is stuff most of us know but the video is still good. Just stuff we have known for a while like NH's big weakness as you said in the video, lack of development and missing elements or building on those things which did occur, similar to stuff I have said before like Kishi had the opportunity to use NH in the past like NS during downtime but he chose NS again and again. I mean like he could have used some of the downtime before the 5 kage summit with Naruto seeing Hinata yet he didn't do that instead focusing on events like NS related like Naruto getting beat to protect Sakura's feelings for hiding Sasuke, then we got 457 and eventually Sai making the big reveal to Sakura. While this stuff occured Hinata went unknown for the longest time only finally getting a build on her pain moment with a short flashback from one of Naruto's clones when he was allowed on the battlefield, stuff like that. Even as late as the short span of 629-631, there again was downtime but Kishi had Minato swoop in and make a big reveal/boost for NS. He left Hinata undone again only giving a more filler like moment with 633. Thats what I am referring too but what is basically said in your video, stuff like this we have known for a while because most fans on this site all look at both Sakura's interaction with Naruto but also Hinata's and we still know not everything with Sakura is more or less good, it still leads to some other events that cause more of a build than NH has done so far. NH is lagging in development, if even a bad event as others would call it like 469 or the land of iron on Sakura did hurt NS in a way, it built up a moment for Sakura's own development in 630 in which she gave the speech to the alliance from her own experience about relying on Naruto. Thats what I'm saying here, NS has all these moments in the manga where NH is severely lagging and others tend to act like they can just gain answers by filling in the blanks or just expect them to spontaneously happen.

Chill. Actually, the video was not really about the development at all or the lack there of.

My point was about looking at the NH development itself that has occurred and looking at the quality of said moments. Not quantity. The quantity part was not to say that NS has more moments than NH and that's why it is canon, although this may be true, but rather why doesn't NH have more moments and the why moments we do get are not ones of natural progression? All the moments NH have are moments that seem to have been forced into the plot to either be a plot mover or a plot device for something else. It's like "We need Naruto to go through angst. Let's bring in Sasuke." or "We need to move the plot, let's bring in Hinata to create useless drama."

615, as I said, seems to be the most guilty of these kind of moments with the useless drama. People say Neji's death was pointless, but I think it has a purpose to make. What was pointless was Naruto losing hope....again and having Hinata have this one moment with Naruto all for the sake of doing her 573 thought.

Are all NH moment a forced plot development? I think so. I think the only times it weren't was in part 1 when she was shy and needed encouragement to prove Neji wrong which Naruto did anyway. I think that was the last true NH moment that really had a true purpose and was just a forced plot device. It was to establish that Naruto cares about everyone.
 

James;

I agree that most NH moments are forced - not all of them, but most.

 

A moment that's not forced is the proud failure speech. I think this was a NH moment, but it was also a failure moment. I think Kishi chose Hinata to give the speech for two reasons; 1. She was also a failure, therefore she could relate to him. 2. It was the first time she expressed how much and why she looked up to him.

 

I am cutting this short so my post doesn't become a mile, but I did read it.

You mean part 1 right? The fight with Neji? I agree, but this would the only time I can say it is legitimate. After that, it really just forced sub-plots and pointless drama for the sake of it.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 12 August 2013 - 08:25 PM.

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#5643 sushi.

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:19 PM

NaruHina is forced, I agree with that.

Everytime that there is a NH moment, I have the impression it comes from nowhere. I mean, it could not happen, the story won't change.

NH moments are always so sudden.

 

Anyway, Cassy did explain it perfectly.

Here is some good NS video, it explain everything how it will become canon :

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=WKfmHxJgb6Q

 

In my opinion, NH died the time when Minato said that Sakura is like his woman.

I mean, it's so obvious what Kishi is trying to do by letting Minato says she looks like his woman, while his woman said that she would like her son finding a girl like her.

Maybe that's why they only have moment every 100th chapter? It's hard to squeeze them in everywhere when it doesn't flow with the plot. I'll give it one thing though, both Hinata and Sakura's confessions really moved the plot.

Interesting line of thought, i feel the same when it comes to Sakura's attitude on the summit, i mean she knew the confession would fail and also she knew she could not kill Sasuke, so according to Kakashi's words and Sai, Sakura was also subcionsciously suicidal too?

I mean it's not bad for Hinata, because the situation is almost similar to Sakura's.
Because Hinata knew she didnt stood a chance but Sakura too knew that both the confession and her attempt to kill Sasuke would fail too.

I feel that both of the girl were desperate, Hinata was desperate because she thought Naruto would die, while both has bad part would be for Hinata who thought Naruto would fail, and Sakura for understimanting Naruto.

 

She didn't know she couldn't kill Sasuke until seconds before she was about to do it. She really thought she was going to do it.

 

Sakura had a plan. She brought poison, attempted to trick him etc. But of course both were desperate.

 

I think you've got the last part completely wrong. How was she underestemating him?


Edited by sushi., 12 August 2013 - 08:22 PM.

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#5644 James S Cassidy

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:35 PM

Maybe that's why they only have moment every 100th chapter? It's hard to squeeze them in everywhere when it doesn't flow with the plot. I'll give it one thing though, both Hinata and Sakura's confessions really moved the plot.

She didn't know she couldn't kill Sasuke until seconds before she was about to do it. She really thought she was going to do it.

 

I guess Hinata's confession moved the plot, but not for the same reason how Sakura's confession moved the plot. I don't know Hinata's confession felt like Kishi ran into a corner he didn't know how to get out of and used Hinata to make an excuse for him to turn 9-tails. Sure, it gave Hinata.....something, but it didn't feel like she actually did anything productive and she went right back to being her old self again. Sakura's confession felt more like her being the heroine and wanting to take care of Sasuke. Leading up to a point where both Naruto and Sasuke established that they are going to fight and further introducing Sasuke's darker side. It also made Sakura see the truth in Sasuke and made her develop as a character even more. The POAL was taken care of, a plot device in part 1, and was actually talked upon.

I felt like the Sakura confession covered so much and advanced the plot to a new stage. It was almost like a huge checkpoint that was reached because after that we went through the war arc and into a whole new ball game.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 12 August 2013 - 09:14 PM.

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#5645 Hanabi

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:38 PM

Lastly about the confession, I want to defend Sakura from people who said she "sat on her ass" or "just watched". She took care of Tsunade, and most importantly she caused the evacuation of the people Naruto was so afraid he had hurt. While he is out defeating villains, she defends his people. That's what she does; She doesn't take lives, she saves lives.

 

Nicely put. Hate it when people goes "Sakura is so useless she didn't defend Naruto from Pain" :argh:  How could she know that he needs reinforcement when the Hyuga guy next to her didn't say out loud. Sakura sensed Kyubi's chakra even before that useless hyuga guy told her Hinata was struck down.

 

 

Interesting line of thought, i feel the same when it comes to Sakura's attitude on the summit, i mean she knew the confession would fail and also she knew she could not kill Sasuke, so according to Kakashi's words and Sai, Sakura was also subcionsciously suicidal too?

I mean it's not bad for Hinata, because the situation is almost similar to Sakura's.

 

:mad: IMO I don't think Sakura and Hinata are similar. I prefer Paptala's tumblr writings.

 

Naruto tried to take his burdens and Sakura’s onto his own shoulders and fix everything for her from the POAL throughout part two. He failed.

Sakura tried to take her burdens and Naruto’s onto her own shoulders at the summit and fix everything. She failed too.

The logical next step is for Naruto and Sakura to realize that the answer is not to try and take the other person’s burden from them and keep their own to themselves, but to share their burdens equally and support each other in that way. -Paptala


Edited by Hanabi, 12 August 2013 - 08:47 PM.

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#5646 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:40 PM

I like where's this is going here. I'll put my two cents, though very brief because I truly got a lot to say.

I believe Kishi used the chance to have Hinata to not only give developments for her but also hinting and moving forward. Think about this one: why Hinata didn't die? Yes, she would have brought back to life anyway, but that's not the point. Here's my take:

To begin with, let's go over the confession scene. I see that Kishi took the opportunity to not only move forward and give her development, but as well as fit the theme of the arc: the importance of Naruto in the village. I don't want to go over this because it will be long, but everyone in here demonstrated the importance of Naruto in here. Hinata is shown that he is important because if it wasn't for him, she will be a failure probably forever. But after seeing him working hard and being able to smile while being called a failure helped her a lot. It gotten to the point that she loves him. Now then, why love was presented. Here's why.

First of all, you may be wondering, why didn't she die if many others did. Plot device. For who? Yes...Sakura. You could argue for others like Neji, but let's focus on why I said Sakura. First of all, Team Gai was looking for medic, not being specific on who. Enter Sakura. Sakura heals her. But now Kishi's advantage unleashed. What is it? Bothersome by another who loves Naruto (as well).

Why the heck I said this? Ok, let's go over. Hinata didn't die because if she did, Sakura wouldn't show up. Since she's alive but wounded, Sakura entered and learned the truth of Hinata. You go and say, "K9 don't get killed." Yeah, and Neji is probably sleeping with all other ninjas who got hurt by Juubi. Remember, Kishi was already planning on reviving all of them, so there's no reason to keep her alive.

Next, remember how much Hinata's confession was brought up in the manga? Yeah....never, just her action. Why? Because the love aspect is never important to begin with or even worth mentioning if this manga isn't trying to be complicated love and all. That should hit you that it's never that important. So why have her confess and just be good friend speech? Because it's made to connect to Sakura to give us hint that she was bothered that someone else loves him. Let's not forget, Neji asked why Hinata did what she did, yet Sakura doesn't answe him, only in her mind. Is that needed? Actually, no, because it lasted only one page. Then it got cut off before it can even continue. In the anime version, she twitched her eyebrows, showing that she's bothered by this.

Lastly, people would have said, "She feels sorry for Hinata, so she wants to help Hinata." Yeah...by hugging Naruto in front of the village! Great help, Sakura. Now Naruto will fall in love with Hinata. All jokes aside, that's not true because in a serious manner, that hug was without a doubt the perfect time for NH to rise, but no, Sakura did it. This already negated the possibility that Sakura wants to help out Hinata. This was perfect time for Sakura to push Hinata to Naruto and do the hug and yes, get the reactions of "love is in the air." Deny it all you want, but this was a huge opportunity.

I had one person telling me that Sakura is saddened because she knew what Hinata went through by doing so much for her love as she compares to Sasuke. No, that's not true because first of all, Sasuke was never mentioned in the recovery scene. It was Naruto. Sakura would have said I know that feeling if that's the case. Also, if you're banking on this idea, again, why didn't Sakura push Hinata to get near Naruto? Also, since you want to bank on that idea, ok, we can. One problem: Naruto is the only one mentioned. That means she loves Naruto then, huh? See, I can twist it myself.

To close this off, I want to mention the main point of the reason why it was setup that way and how Kishi took an advantage to address more than just developments. In fact, as of late, I am starting to believe that chapter 615 infamous Sakura's "random" panel was shown to remind us that she was uncomfortable with her near Naruto and it still shows. When I reread it, it's possible that it's true because everyone was having war cry face, but Sakura has "It can be..." face. When you look at all other manga/anime, when a girl goes and see a misunderstanding moment like the protagonist kissing the other girl, you'll see the girl hurt or don't want to believe it face. Also, funny when looking at hers compare to the background, she sure is serious and hell bent on war, right? Anyway, that's all for now. I got to learn on how to use a single panel in post, so I can have more visual.

#5647 sushi.

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:45 PM

I guess Hinata's confession moved the plot, but not for the same reason how Sakura's confession moved the plot. I don't know Hinata's confession felt like Kishi ran into a corner he didn't know how to get out of and used Hinata to make an excuse for him to turn 9-tails. Sure, it gave Hinata.....something, but it didn't feel like she actually did anything productive and she went right back to being her old self again. Sakura's confession felt more like her being the heroine and wanting to take care of Sasuke. Leading up to a point where both Naruto and Sasuke establish that they are going to fight further introducing Sasuke darker side. It also made Sakura see the truth in Sasuke and made her develop as a character even more. The POAL was taken care, a plot device in part 1, and was actually talked upon.

I felt like the Sakura confession covered so much and advanced the plot to a new stage. It was almost like a huge checkpoint that was reached because after that we went through the war arc and into a whole new ball game.

It's a nice catch. I feel like that too.

 

Sometimes Kishi gives Hinata the spotlight and makes her either do something really cool or really stupid. When it's over, she's back to the timid girl in the background, and just appears as a part of the rookies.. I would've been more pleased if she got something permanent out of her moments, i wouldn't feel like she's just a piece in the game.

 

Sakura got something out of her confession, she changed as a person and ultimately drove her forward.


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#5648 Dkey

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:10 PM

I like where's this is going here. I'll put my two cents, though very brief because I truly got a lot to say.

I believe Kishi used the chance to have Hinata to not only give developments for her but also hinting and moving forward. Think about this one: why Hinata didn't die? Yes, she would have brought back to life anyway, but that's not the point. Here's my take:

To begin with, let's go over the confession scene. I see that Kishi took the opportunity to not only move forward and give her development, but as well as fit the theme of the arc: the importance of Naruto in the village. I don't want to go over this because it will be long, but everyone in here demonstrated the importance of Naruto in here. Hinata is shown that he is important because if it wasn't for him, she will be a failure probably forever. But after seeing him working hard and being able to smile while being called a failure helped her a lot. It gotten to the point that she loves him. Now then, why love was presented. Here's why.

First of all, you may be wondering, why didn't she die if many others did. Plot device. For who? Yes...Sakura. You could argue for others like Neji, but let's focus on why I said Sakura. First of all, Team Gai was looking for medic, not being specific on who. Enter Sakura. Sakura heals her. But now Kishi's advantage unleashed. What is it? Bothersome by another who loves Naruto (as well).

Why the heck I said this? Ok, let's go over. Hinata didn't die because if she did, Sakura wouldn't show up. Since she's alive but wounded, Sakura entered and learned the truth of Hinata. You go and say, "K9 don't get killed." Yeah, and Neji is probably sleeping with all other ninjas who got hurt by Juubi. Remember, Kishi was already planning on reviving all of them, so there's no reason to keep her alive.

Next, remember how much Hinata's confession was brought up in the manga? Yeah....never, just her action. Why? Because the love aspect is never important to begin with or even worth mentioning if this manga isn't trying to be complicated love and all. That should hit you that it's never that important. So why have her confess and just be good friend speech? Because it's made to connect to Sakura to give us hint that she was bothered that someone else loves him. Let's not forget, Neji asked why Hinata did what she did, yet Sakura doesn't answe him, only in her mind. Is that needed? Actually, no, because it lasted only one page. Then it got cut off before it can even continue. In the anime version, she twitched her eyebrows, showing that she's bothered by this.

Lastly, people would have said, "She feels sorry for Hinata, so she wants to help Hinata." Yeah...by hugging Naruto in front of the village! Great help, Sakura. Now Naruto will fall in love with Hinata. All jokes aside, that's not true because in a serious manner, that hug was without a doubt the perfect time for NH to rise, but no, Sakura did it. This already negated the possibility that Sakura wants to help out Hinata. This was perfect time for Sakura to push Hinata to Naruto and do the hug and yes, get the reactions of "love is in the air." Deny it all you want, but this was a huge opportunity.

I had one person telling me that Sakura is saddened because she knew what Hinata went through by doing so much for her love as she compares to Sasuke. No, that's not true because first of all, Sasuke was never mentioned in the recovery scene. It was Naruto. Sakura would have said I know that feeling if that's the case. Also, if you're banking on this idea, again, why didn't Sakura push Hinata to get near Naruto? Also, since you want to bank on that idea, ok, we can. One problem: Naruto is the only one mentioned. That means she loves Naruto then, huh? See, I can twist it myself.

To close this off, I want to mention the main point of the reason why it was setup that way and how Kishi took an advantage to address more than just developments. In fact, as of late, I am starting to believe that chapter 615 infamous Sakura's "random" panel was shown to remind us that she was uncomfortable with her near Naruto and it still shows. When I reread it, it's possible that it's true because everyone was having war cry face, but Sakura has "It can be..." face. When you look at all other manga/anime, when a girl goes and see a misunderstanding moment like the protagonist kissing the other girl, you'll see the girl hurt or don't want to believe it face. Also, funny when looking at hers compare to the background, she sure is serious and hell bent on war, right? Anyway, that's all for now. I got to learn on how to use a single panel in post, so I can have more visual.

 

 

Well the thing is that the only one who acknowledged Hinata's love for Naruto wasn't Naruto but Sakura. For what reason we don't know exactly. As you said the idea that Sakura is now a NH supporter doesn't add up because she went and hugged him after his return, as if she forgot all about Hinata.

 

NH isn't forced per say, but it has an almost unbreakable wall and that wall is NS. NS has to much in terms of quality and quantity and also has everything a relationship needs.

Almost no awkwardness between the two

Friendship

Trust

Selflessness

Doing stuff together

 

Except for friendship and encouragement, not much can be said about NH. In fact we have a thought of Hinata that says she will stop chasing him after the war. Not sure if this is giving up or something else.



#5649 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:26 PM

Maybe that's why they only have moment every 100th chapter? It's hard to squeeze them in everywhere when it doesn't flow with the plot. I'll give it one thing though, both Hinata and Sakura's confessions really moved the plot.

She didn't know she couldn't kill Sasuke until seconds before she was about to do it. She really thought she was going to do it.

 

Sakura had a plan. She brought poison, attempted to trick him etc. But of course both were desperate.

 

I think you've got the last part completely wrong. How was she underestemating him?

She said "i knew i could not do it".

I mean the second most intelligent person on the k11, makes a plan that relies on poisoning Sasuke only, Kakashi knew it would fail, Kakashi was aware that the poison wont work just because of Orochimaru, didnt Sakura could not think about it, the rest  "Both were desperate" i think yes, i agree, i mean both of them were subcionsciously suicidal.

Kakshi said she was marching to her own death.

 

About the question she underestimanted him by not telling him the truth, why she hide what she was really feelings for him, the true reason is that she didnt wanted to lose Naruto, but why she doesnt say that?

Instead of saying "You only think about Sasuke and Sasuke, you should care about yourself too the akatsuki is after you".

She could've say the truth, but instead she chose to give a confession that she knew would not work, and made up a plan that she also knew would not work.

 

 


 

 

:mad: IMO I don't think Sakura and Hinata are similar. I prefer Paptala's tumblr writings.

 

Naruto tried to take his burdens and Sakura’s onto his own shoulders and fix everything for her from the POAL throughout part two. He failed.

Sakura tried to take her burdens and Naruto’s onto her own shoulders at the summit and fix everything. She failed too.

The logical next step is for Naruto and Sakura to realize that the answer is not to try and take the other person’s burden from them and keep their own to themselves, but to share their burdens equally and support each other in that way. -Paptala

 

Paptala is talking about Sakura reasons, the both cases are similar but however the reasons are not, Sakura had a legit reason and noble one, she wanted to lessen Naruto's burden, she was selfless, Sakura was reckless she were "subcionsciously suicidal." but she did it for noble reasons, she went there without a plan, she knew it all would fail but she wanted to do something, she showed she is capable of doing everything for Naruto, she showed true love for him there.

In other had Hinata jumped in solely because of her love, she went there for her own reasons, she was selfish, that's the bad part not because she pratically wanted to kill herself subcionsciously.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 August 2013 - 09:38 PM.

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#5650 sushi.

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

She said "i knew i could not do it".

I mean the second most intelligent person on the k11, makes a plan that relies on poisoning Sasuke only, Kakashi knew it would fail, Kakashi was aware that the poison wont work just because of Orochimaru, didnt Sakura could not think about it, the rest  "Both were desperate" i think yes, i agree, i mean both of them were subcionsciously suicidal.

Kakshi said she was marching to her own death.

 

About the question she underestimanted him by not telling him the truth, why she hide what she was really feelings for him, the true reason is that she didnt wanted to lose Naruto, but why she doesnt say that?

Instead of saying "You only think about Sasuke and Sasuke, you should care about yourself too the akatsuki is after you".

She could've say the truth, but instead she chose to give a confession that she knew would not work, and made up a plan that she also knew would not work.

Saying "I knew I couldn't do it" is completely different than saying "I know I can't do it, but I'm going to anyway".

 

They both marched their death yes, but what Hinata did is completely different than what Sakura did. I don't really want to compare them that way.


Edited by sushi., 12 August 2013 - 09:39 PM.

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#5651 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:43 PM



Saying "I knew I couldn't do it" is completely different than saying "I know I can't do it, but I'm going to anyway".

 

They both marched their death yes, but what Hinata did is completely different than what Sakura did. I don't really want to compare them that way.

Agree Hinata did for herself, her feelings not solely for Naruto, and Sakura made an ultimate extreme selfless sacrifice.

 

I mean she lied on the confession but the fact that she chose to return Naruto's feelings and then later kills the guy she loves for Naruto, she must really loves him.


Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 August 2013 - 09:44 PM.

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#5652 bthug

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:34 PM

I don't know... with Hinata, I understand why she is the way she is, but I just don't find her interesting or remotely appealing regardless :shrug: BUT, I'm not going to go any further into that because it may come off as bashing...

 

1. WAIT I FOUND ONE

 tumblr_mkas38RaEK1s3phxvo1_r1_500.png

AND ANOTHER OMG

tumblr_mn0kf5D7Tk1s715bmo1_500.jpg

 

2. I don't have PS3, I only have Xbox. :(

3. I really want to see Sakura initiate a kiss on the lips as well! It would be such a sweet moment!

Haha u rock for finding this. But only two!?!? Lol and no disrespect, but the first one is not the best art i've seen. And the second from the back Argh! Lol Okay thats enough from me and Al and windy....maybe i"ll start a new thread.



#5653 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:42 PM

 
 
Well the thing is that the only one who acknowledged Hinata's love for Naruto wasn't Naruto but Sakura. For what reason we don't know exactly. As you said the idea that Sakura is now a NH supporter doesn't add up because she went and hugged him after his return, as if she forgot all about Hinata.
 
NH isn't forced per say, but it has an almost unbreakable wall and that wall is NS. NS has to much in terms of quality and quantity and also has everything a relationship needs.
Almost no awkwardness between the two
Friendship
Trust
Selflessness
Doing stuff together
 
Except for friendship and encouragement, not much can be said about NH. In fact we have a thought of Hinata that says she will stop chasing him after the war. Not sure if this is giving up or something else.

But that's my point of my LAP. The love aspect was never brought again from Naruto or perhaps Hinata (at least not in public). My point is that it really felt like if not it is, only there to have Sakura to react that way. Again, Kishi will use any advantage to address a hidden message.

#5654 arian_rad

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:45 PM

I like where's this is going here. I'll put my two cents, though very brief because I truly got a lot to say.

I believe Kishi used the chance to have Hinata to not only give developments for her but also hinting and moving forward. Think about this one: why Hinata didn't die? Yes, she would have brought back to life anyway, but that's not the point. Here's my take:

To begin with, let's go over the confession scene. I see that Kishi took the opportunity to not only move forward and give her development, but as well as fit the theme of the arc: the importance of Naruto in the village. I don't want to go over this because it will be long, but everyone in here demonstrated the importance of Naruto in here. Hinata is shown that he is important because if it wasn't for him, she will be a failure probably forever. But after seeing him working hard and being able to smile while being called a failure helped her a lot. It gotten to the point that she loves him. Now then, why love was presented. Here's why.

First of all, you may be wondering, why didn't she die if many others did. Plot device. For who? Yes...Sakura. You could argue for others like Neji, but let's focus on why I said Sakura. First of all, Team Gai was looking for medic, not being specific on who. Enter Sakura. Sakura heals her. But now Kishi's advantage unleashed. What is it? Bothersome by another who loves Naruto (as well).

Why the heck I said this? Ok, let's go over. Hinata didn't die because if she did, Sakura wouldn't show up. Since she's alive but wounded, Sakura entered and learned the truth of Hinata. You go and say, "K9 don't get killed." Yeah, and Neji is probably sleeping with all other ninjas who got hurt by Juubi. Remember, Kishi was already planning on reviving all of them, so there's no reason to keep her alive.

Next, remember how much Hinata's confession was brought up in the manga? Yeah....never, just her action. Why? Because the love aspect is never important to begin with or even worth mentioning if this manga isn't trying to be complicated love and all. That should hit you that it's never that important. So why have her confess and just be good friend speech? Because it's made to connect to Sakura to give us hint that she was bothered that someone else loves him. Let's not forget, Neji asked why Hinata did what she did, yet Sakura doesn't answe him, only in her mind. Is that needed? Actually, no, because it lasted only one page. Then it got cut off before it can even continue. In the anime version, she twitched her eyebrows, showing that she's bothered by this.

Lastly, people would have said, "She feels sorry for Hinata, so she wants to help Hinata." Yeah...by hugging Naruto in front of the village! Great help, Sakura. Now Naruto will fall in love with Hinata. All jokes aside, that's not true because in a serious manner, that hug was without a doubt the perfect time for NH to rise, but no, Sakura did it. This already negated the possibility that Sakura wants to help out Hinata. This was perfect time for Sakura to push Hinata to Naruto and do the hug and yes, get the reactions of "love is in the air." Deny it all you want, but this was a huge opportunity.

I had one person telling me that Sakura is saddened because she knew what Hinata went through by doing so much for her love as she compares to Sasuke. No, that's not true because first of all, Sasuke was never mentioned in the recovery scene. It was Naruto. Sakura would have said I know that feeling if that's the case. Also, if you're banking on this idea, again, why didn't Sakura push Hinata to get near Naruto? Also, since you want to bank on that idea, ok, we can. One problem: Naruto is the only one mentioned. That means she loves Naruto then, huh? See, I can twist it myself.

To close this off, I want to mention the main point of the reason why it was setup that way and how Kishi took an advantage to address more than just developments. In fact, as of late, I am starting to believe that chapter 615 infamous Sakura's "random" panel was shown to remind us that she was uncomfortable with her near Naruto and it still shows. When I reread it, it's possible that it's true because everyone was having war cry face, but Sakura has "It can be..." face. When you look at all other manga/anime, when a girl goes and see a misunderstanding moment like the protagonist kissing the other girl, you'll see the girl hurt or don't want to believe it face. Also, funny when looking at hers compare to the background, she sure is serious and hell bent on war, right? Anyway, that's all for now. I got to learn on how to use a single panel in post, so I can have more visual.


Great post! I have felt the same way about it this whole time. It seems whenever there is a NaruHina moment, kishi uses this to enforce a NaruSaku one later on. In both instances such as Sakura being sad that hinata loves Naruto and Hinata's slap, Sakura was shown in a state of shock and sadness. It seems like a hate to open up Sakura's true emotions and show the readers how she truly feels about naruhina and naruto. Both times after, it has led to a NaruSaku moment such as the hug and 631. I still figure there is much more to come for NaruSaku at the end of the war but for now, it seemed good enough to put Hinata in the friend-zone. One thing I don't understand is how Hinata has never tried to understand Naruto's feelings and what he might want. It really bothers me but whenever she is shown to have a scene or a speech, she is either referring to herself and her own needs or just repeating what someone else said (neji speech) (running to Naruto during the war) (633) panel. Guess that's what makes me dislike her character at some points. She's just so focused on one thing that it disturbs me.

#5655 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 11:12 PM

Great post! I have felt the same way about it this whole time. It seems whenever there is a NaruHina moment, kishi uses this to enforce a NaruSaku one later on. In both instances such as Sakura being sad that hinata loves Naruto and Hinata's slap, Sakura was shown in a state of shock and sadness. It seems like a hate to open up Sakura's true emotions and show the readers how she truly feels about naruhina and naruto. Both times after, it has led to a NaruSaku moment such as the hug and 631. I still figure there is much more to come for NaruSaku at the end of the war but for now, it seemed good enough to put Hinata in the friend-zone. One thing I don't understand is how Hinata has never tried to understand Naruto's feelings and what he might want. It really bothers me but whenever she is shown to have a scene or a speech, she is either referring to herself and her own needs or just repeating what someone else said (neji speech) (running to Naruto during the war) (633) panel. Guess that's what makes me dislike her character at some points. She's just so focused on one thing that it disturbs me.

I'll tell you why.

 

That's not her character to understand, aka being a true love interest.

 

All of her character with Naruto is based on nindo, the never give up motivation. It's been like that since forever. Even in 615, it's the same thing because it's all about that driving force. She's not about trying to learn Naruto as a person, or trying to fit in to be his lover. It's about her finding the key to never give up and grow stronger. As with Naruto, he's her idol. In part 1, she wants to show how strong she is but failed due to losing to Neji. She never got the answer until part 2, even though Naruto has always thought she was strong. The real moment was that Hinata tell Naruto what she thinks about failure and reminded Naruto that not all failures will think failure is a failure, rather they will never back down. That's why he felt motivated to fight Neji for Lee, Hinata, and all others, hence why he likes people like her. They all have to get up and get strong.

 

Part 2, her problem continues as this time, she is scare to talk because she has no confidence, which didn't get that much built in part 1, so that's Kishi's reason to continue her character. The confession, it took Naruto's near death to make her talk and drop all shyness and do whatever takes to let the person know without regrets. 559, she is finally told that she is strong and she is now no longer needed to be helped by Naruto or get talked by him. 615, I see it like a redux version of proud failure, only not about that but about people in general who are willing to risk their lives.

 

So there you have it, it has nothing else to offer. Dead serious.



#5656 Gravenimage

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 11:30 PM

I'll tell you why.

 

That's not her character to understand, aka being a true love interest.

 

All of her character with Naruto is based on nindo, the never give up motivation. It's been like that since forever. Even in 615, it's the same thing because it's all about that driving force. She's not about trying to learn Naruto as a person, or trying to fit in to be his lover. It's about her finding the key to never give up and grow stronger. As with Naruto, he's her idol. In part 1, she wants to show how strong she is but failed due to losing to Neji. She never got the answer until part 2, even though Naruto has always thought she was strong. The real moment was that Hinata tell Naruto what she thinks about failure and reminded Naruto that not all failures will think failure is a failure, rather they will never back down. That's why he felt motivated to fight Neji for Lee, Hinata, and all others, hence why he likes people like her. They all have to get up and get strong.

 

Part 2, her problem continues as this time, she is scare to talk because she has no confidence, which didn't get that much built in part 1, so that's Kishi's reason to continue her character. The confession, it took Naruto's near death to make her talk and drop all shyness and do whatever takes to let the person know without regrets. 559, she is finally told that she is strong and she is now no longer needed to be helped by Naruto or get talked by him. 615, I see it like a redux version of proud failure, only not about that but about people in general who are willing to risk their lives.

 

So there you have it, it has nothing else to offer. Dead serious.

 

This^ nothing else just this^.


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#5657 Yami_no_Princess

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 02:28 AM

but that would ruin all the fun. at that point the pairing wars would be over....

That's really not my problem. 



#5658 Psychox

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 09:44 AM

Well i dont think so, no one pokes fun at Sakura about her forehead, i mean on her early childhood it was an issue, but now since the part 1 is just her main insecurity.

I wont say it was fixed because i strongly believe she has insecurities about her forehead, which Naruto will fix that  :smug:.

Kind of fixed , yep, i patiently await for that moment myself ^^. :smug:


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#5659 Psychox

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:16 AM

No, this is just a random video of a thought I had

Lol , man that video made my day :D , seriously , i am glad i've watched/listen to it . But you are right , moments were forced except part 1 with the proud failure  thing that was a good moment for  NH as a  relationship, because Naruto got inspired by one of the underdogs of the konoha 11/12 and he started seeing her from a dark/shy  weirdo to a good friend '' I like people like you ''. NH is forced it reminds me of another forced relationship sasu*cough*saku*cough, just because they've yet to develop a strong friendship rather than a romantic relationship , not that they dont have friendship, they do , but not on the level Naruto and Sakura's  has grown from complete trust to  understanding , to something even bigger .There's a lot of negativity in the way not to mention that one side remains indifferent. There is a whole manga to go by and to talk about when it comes to NaruSaku. And that is why some folk cant talk of their pairings moments , because its not much to talk about without showing depression ,angst or sadness .

NS , can’t possibly measure up to “I’m going to get my ass kicked to prove my love” or “I love you so much I can’t kill you.”
There are suppose to be moments , funny moments , lovely , interaction like going on a date or what not ,why does it always need to be drama/angst?

 

Man if you give nh a chance to state an opinion why NH can become canon  and would be better without ripping apart Sakura , quite frankly they dont stand a ghost of a change . :zaru:


Edited by Psychox, 13 August 2013 - 10:29 AM.

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#5660 Inferno180

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:55 PM

One of the basic ideals NH claims though is just that, its biggest weakness is the lack of development, people suddenly just expect all these blanks to be filled in and just somehow make sense.

 

Kinda like this:

-after her confession at pain and the results of the land of iron, people expected Naruto to just instantly start turning to Hinata despite Naruto not even mentioning anything to her, save what she listened to about him telling everyone about Sasuke.

-Sakura's still present love for Sasuke should have automatically been assumed to make NH and SS come true, because Sakura was not in the way to them anymore.

 

Yet there was nothing for years on the confession, the confession from Hinata has still not been addressed, its been longer than if Naruto still loves Sakura or not, and 631 basically hinted him still loving her. People just expected these things to happen despite no screentime, extended anime scenes, or even anime fillers come up to showcase anything. Yet we get a filler of Naruto still saying he loves Sakura but nothing on Hinata, still nothing. Doesn't that speak something funny? Especially now how things are set up? Unlike NS, NH is missing a lot of material. Some can claim the flaws in NS, but NS has a lot of an advantage because it has more screentime. NH is lagging and also without a major relevance to the main plot, people assume its suddenly more important than Naruto's own goals or that it deserves more attention.

 

615 was the real case that sent people into overdrive, people claimed it was canon or the start of canon, but as of right now, if it was canon Kishi just made some real issues to the story considering other characters were still unresolved I mean its not like Naruto and Sakura had all their interaction and development on each other said and done yet people acted like this was the end and that NH was set for canon, again dismissing Sakura's own development too. Basically they just wanted to jump to the end, nevermind the development of Naruto and Sakura which actually has a major reason near the end too, Sasuke. Hinata's involvement with Naruto has nothing in line when it comes to Sasuke. Something many fans seemed to have forget over these years is out of all characters in the series, Sasuke and Hinata are as far apart as it comes. They have no cause for interaction, they haven't even spoken to each other once save for the bonds movie where he tells her to go away. But thats just it again, in 615 NH was getting praise and that it was like the second coming or whatever, but then 631 comes up and then a massive freak storm is created and people question the events with Minato despite never realizing that the moment didn't and couldn't have resolved everything in just a few short panels. Basically if 615 was NH becoming canon then its really messing the story up with a statement like in 631. If it was the start of NH becoming canon, its taken off and swerved completely offcourse with again stuff like 631 and 633 bringing more of a reversion filler moment.

 

Its just at this point, where does Hinata go? 633 made things really unclear when we saw her acting bold and 633 is just seemed more filler than anything else. One reason I hate 633, its the one chapter out of the past few weeks that seems to have no relevance other than to show that the other members of team 8 and 10 are still around, yet we know Shikamaru has a decent role this arc even if its just been constant speaking. This chapter just doesn't fall in line with the rest and yeah it felt like an unnecessary filler. We saw this miraculous display of team 7 in 634 and 635 but the rest just does not fit with 633. So Hinata remains a mystery for now, thats not good or bad but it makes her hard to follow, something that makes a character not easy to relate with.

 

Hinata does have a clear endpoint though, gaining confidence and leading her clan, as for one of her major issues, yes its what her confession was to Naruto and how he reacts to it, but then again thats it, this has been unaddressed for just about 200 chapters. Now with this other stuff set in place like 631 and the lack of development NH has in total compared to NS, the lack of flow between development points as well, what is NH to do to suddenly merit itself as the most important or best developed when the series itself has become so limited and its nearing the end? How can it do this stuff now without filling in the blanks suddenly and assuming itself as the offical pairing when we already have a clue of this from Minato relating to Sakura, when Naruto's feelings appear to have not changed, and espcially how can it do this so it doesn't come off as weak as it would due to its lack of development, not upset Sakura's development, and not impede upon the situation with Sasuke? There are just too many issues, mainly for Sakura and Sasuke, they cannot be suddenly forced together either for SS just so Sakura's development is undone or completely putting Sasuke out of character. What are people going to expect? Some magic pixie dust makes people suddenly fall in love like from shakespeares a midsummers night dream? Sorry no fancy love jutsu in the Naruto series. Kishi can write his story anyway he wants but remember, what he writes is like a contract, breaking the flow or setting suddenly just makes things harder to understand or follow. He wrote Sakura being compared to Kushina, Sakura is the only girl compared to Kushina so far, to suddenly make Minato do this to Hinata or do it off of what we have seen, that just makes things more unclear. He gave us a clue with Kushina's last words, Minato built on them, so we should suddenly have Hinata in the comparison picture? Espcially when you can see who Kushina's past resembles? Thats basically the situation here, Hinata is suddenly not going to become some super powerful or centrally asserted figure much as fans would want. She isn't getting a powerup like Sakura, she is not part of team 7 as much as others wish she was. NH just has too many blanks and for them to suddenly be filled in, that makes it look weaker and rushed/forced. NH has a basis but its been left undone to years to the point Naruto and Sakura's relationship has gained enough development to be part of the underlying plot in terms of the story for team 7, the main characters of the series. We have had questions and gained answers for NS, still are, yet NH remains unresolved, if we got an answer of Naruto still loving Sakura past the land of iron events yet still nothing for Hinata defending Naruto, a situation even older than this, thats just not looking good for NH, Naruto didn't suddenly love Hinata and move past Sakura, yet others claim he did. Sorry does not work like this especially when we have seen Naruto focused on Sakura this long, its not going to dissapear as much as people wish it would. NS has its roots and has developed into one of the most developed relationships even as just friendship in the series, yet NH though it has its own setting and small amount of progress, its missing a lot when compared to NS and it just frankly cannot catch up at this point.



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