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#541 Dreamer

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:42 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Dec 10 2009, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're still talking about a cost the governments wouldn't pay.

Extracting hydrogen is expensive, as it is with fusion power plants. Which is what they're doing, extracting hydrogen from water and powering it.

I forgot where I read it, but the energy required to splice the atoms is greater than what the hydrogen can produce.


That's the main problem, sometimes you have to pay more upfront to get better technology like Cellulose used in Alternative biofuels that can multiply and produce larger amounts of fuel from one crop like Algae and Switchgrass, the best biofuel plants to use without affecting feedstock supplies. (Switchgrass can regrow from the same root after being cut off and algae can be extracted from both the sea and grown/found in all climates.)

Edited by Uzumakikage, 11 December 2009 - 12:47 AM.


#542 Cloud

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:47 AM

QUOTE (Uzumakikage @ Dec 10 2009, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's the main problem, sometimes you have to pay more upfront to get better technology like Cellulose used in Alternative biofuels that can multiply and produce larger amounts of fuel from one crop like Algae and switchgrass, the best biofuel plants to use without affecting feedstock supplies.


Problem is the corruption in the world governments. If any large oil companies see their monopoly threatened... they just purchase the patent and shelf it.

People have tried for years to introduce new power supplies. Oil companies just swallow up the patent, shelf it, and you'll never see it again.

I know biofuel is good and all, but the governments won't pay the money.

#543 Dreamer

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 12:52 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Dec 10 2009, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Problem is the corruption in the world governments. If any large oil companies see their monopoly threatened... they just purchase the patent and shelf it.

People have tried for years to introduce new power supplies. Oil companies just swallow up the patent, shelf it, and you'll never see it again.

I know biofuel is good and all, but the governments won't pay the money.


Your right, I just hope it doesn't take a sure enough depression to realize their errors. sleep.gif

Edited by Uzumakikage, 11 December 2009 - 12:57 AM.


#544 Nate River

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Dec 10 2009, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Problem is the corruption in the world governments. If any large oil companies see their monopoly threatened... they just purchase the patent and shelf it.

People have tried for years to introduce new power supplies. Oil companies just swallow up the patent, shelf it, and you'll never see it again.

I know biofuel is good and all, but the governments won't pay the money.


Oil Companies and Monopoly are contradictory statements.

A Monopoly is a situation where there is only a single supplier, so no matter what they charge, if I want their product I have to pay it.

That there are oil "companies" means there is more than one supplier. If ExxonMobile charges me through the nose, I can go shop at Shell. That is, unless they are like OPEC, which is not a monopoly, but what is known as Collusion, where multiple suppliers essentially make agreements in an attempt to control prices. This will work so long as it includes all or at least most major suppliers AND if they abide by it.

OPEC works pretty well most of the time, but its member nations have been known to cheat pretty frequently and why there is noise about finding our own source of supply.

At the moment, I don't believe the oil companies are engaged in collusion and you are going to have to provide me more proof than the fact that they are, big oil corporations, and, therefore, must be doing.

If you use $4 a gallon gas be prepared to explain profit, mariginal profit, demand, and volume, and the costs of inputs.

QUOTE
Problem is the corruption in the world governments. If any large oil companies see their monopoly threatened... they just purchase the patent and shelf it.


One: I don't think you can patent a fuel sorce. Perhaps the process for extracting it, but probably not the source itself.

Two: Even if you can, patents have a specific shelf-life. Specifically, seventeen years. They aren't like copyrights which last an ungodly length of timee. Once year seventeen passes, anyone can use it.

The relatively short length, is one reason (of many) drugs are sometimes costly. Once they lose the patent, anyone and their grandma can make the drug, but those others can do so without have to expense the massive R&D costs. So drug companies are often trying to recoup those costs (and the costs for many, many failures). And to add to it, the time on the patent is often ticking while they are waiting approval from the food and drug administration.

Three: If they are colluding, why shelf it, if it's a genuine money maker. I would think the self-interested behavior would be to push as hard and fast as they could before the patent expires or to simply collude with their buddies. If it a genuinely profitable source and can genuinely replace/supplement oil, why would they not pursue it?

#545 Strangelove

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 06:43 PM

QUOTE
I know biofuel is good and all, but the governments won't pay the money.


Last time farmers switched over to biofuels we had food shortages...the reason we had $4.00 a gallon of gasoline, was because of the Bush stimulus package, a direct injection of inflation into the economy, if you remember, as soon as those checks started to arrive, the price of gasoline skyrocketed, and the dollar value declined.

Edited by Strangelove, 12 December 2009 - 06:45 PM.

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#546 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:43 PM

QUOTE (Strangelove @ Dec 12 2009, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Last time farmers switched over to biofuels we had food shortages...the reason we had $4.00 a gallon of gasoline, was because of the Bush stimulus package, a direct injection of inflation into the economy, if you remember, as soon as those checks started to arrive, the price of gasoline skyrocketed, and the dollar value declined.

Do you haves source? That ties the farmers to why we had $4.00 a gallon, BECAUSE in my thoughts it was high prices for oil barrels that made us have that high of price for gas. Guess good old Bush 2 forgot that his daddy left sadam in power, because the saudis were scarred of him. laugh.gif

Edited by RyrineaHaruno, 12 December 2009 - 10:56 PM.


#547 I heart donuts

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:50 PM

Wow...the talking of politics really DOES bring out everyone's inner self, and views. The debate continues..."dun dun dun"
"I heart donuts" says: Doughnuts can be radio-active, just look at Homer Simpson. He eats donuts even though he works in a Nuclear Power Plant.
"Homer" says: So??? I'm still alive...
"I heart donuts" says: But you're a cartoon
"Homer" says: Your point is...
"I heart donuts" says: -.-

Ahhh...The power of instant-chat...

#548 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:56 PM

QUOTE (I heart donuts @ Dec 12 2009, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow...the talking of politics really DOES bring out everyone's inner self, and views. The debate continues..."dun dun dun"

Yeah it really does. tongue.gif

#549 I heart donuts

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:12 PM

Politics is a scary subject mellow.gif But then again, some people like to read about them, whether it's controversial or not
"I heart donuts" says: Doughnuts can be radio-active, just look at Homer Simpson. He eats donuts even though he works in a Nuclear Power Plant.
"Homer" says: So??? I'm still alive...
"I heart donuts" says: But you're a cartoon
"Homer" says: Your point is...
"I heart donuts" says: -.-

Ahhh...The power of instant-chat...

#550 Sakura Blossoms

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 01:54 PM

I honestly can't believe that there are still people in this day and age who still truly believe that humans have done nothing to harm the Earth, and that we have not contributed to 'climate change'/global warming:

I believe

#551 Nate River

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 05:23 PM

QUOTE (Sakura Blossoms @ Dec 13 2009, 07:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I honestly can't believe that there are still people in this day and age who still truly believe that humans have done nothing to harm the Earth,


Who argues that?

QUOTE
and that we have not contributed to 'climate change'/global warming

I believe


You'll have to forgive my ignorance for a second, but:

The AP and Seth Borenstien...yeah...

Did the article mention that his name shows up those East Anglian emails asking Jones and Co. how to deal with the publication of a skeptics paper in a scientific journal?

I'll bet it didn't.

Second, I suppose I have trouble submitting to economically punishing taxes and regulations based on the opinion of scientists who appear to have cherry picked data to support a predetermined conclusion and have engaged in the active obstruction, silencing, and attempted blackballing of those who dissent and those who would publish them. And who original analysis can no longer be verified because, surprise, surprise, they already destroyed the raw data on which it was based.

Oh, and they had only 5 people looks at the emails. Guess it's not as pressing issue as Sarah Palin's book. They had 11 people search that.

#552 Cloud

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 06:20 PM

QUOTE (Sakura Blossoms @ Dec 13 2009, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I honestly can't believe that there are still people in this day and age who still truly believe that humans have done nothing to harm the Earth, and that we have not contributed to 'climate change'/global warming:

I believe


Sure. and the Umbrella Corporation didn't create zombies. kruemelmonsteryn0.gif

Some humans find that ignorance is bliss.

#553 Strangelove

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 10:08 PM

The Umbrella corporation did not create the zombies...they created the virus that created the zombies <3

[see how this argument deteriorates]

QUOTE
Do you haves source? That ties the farmers to why we had $4.00 a gallon, BECAUSE in my thoughts it was high prices for oil barrels that made us have that high of price for gas. Guess good old Bush 2 forgot that his daddy left sadam in power, because the saudis were scarred of him.


I really don't need a source...read on the definition of inflation, and look at the value of the dollar from what it is this year, and from what it was last year.



You see that chart...that means your getting poorer...if your savings are on banknotes and not on precious metals...like Gold or Silver.

http://useconomy.abo...ollar_Value.htm

Edited by Strangelove, 13 December 2009 - 10:19 PM.

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#554 Nate River

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 01:33 AM

QUOTE (Strangelove @ Dec 13 2009, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Umbrella corporation did not create the zombies...they created the virus that created the zombies <3

[see how this argument deteriorates]



I really don't need a source...read on the definition of inflation, and look at the value of the dollar from what it is this year, and from what it was last year.



You see that chart...that means your getting poorer...if your savings are on banknotes and not on precious metals...like Gold or Silver.

http://useconomy.abo...ollar_Value.htm


While the value of the dollar and inflation matter, how do either prove that the farmers had anything to do with the cost of gas, you're still missing a step there. Besides, if I recall, inflation has been consistently low for most of the past two decades.

However, while not necessarily a root cause the ethanol mandate did contribute to the problem. A couple of years ago, Congress changed increased the mandatory amount of ethonal in gasoline to 10% and justified it in the name of the environment.

Aside from it being nothing short of a total disaster as to it stated purpose, it caused an increase in the prices of gasoline and food prices at the same time. In the United States it is made from corn. Corn used to make ethanol cannot be consumed. So with the new mandate the demand for corn increased and some of it used for food was diverted to ethanol. Hence the higher food prices.

Unfortunately, the new mandate caused the price to gas to increase because of (1) some of the issues in refining it, and, more important, (2) when the new mandate was passed farmers promised they could keep up with the increased demand. Well, they couldn't. It really just made a bad problem worse.

Finally, you completely ignore the massive increase in worldwide demand for oil, which was one of the biggest reasons for it sky high price.

Now one reason prices have hovered at $70 for the last six months despite relatively meager increases in demand (after it totally collapsed at the end of last year) is the devaluing of the dollar. Most counties reserves currencies are in dollar. When they value dies, it's worth less and they seek to invest money elsewhere, specifically commodities, like crude oil.

It's also why the Chinese are unhappy with Obama.

#555 Sakura Blossoms

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 02:56 PM

Having important potentially world-saving climate talks is pretty useless, as there are just too many nations ridiculously opposed to them:

http://news.yahoo.co...p_on_sc/climate

#556 Nate River

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 03:47 PM

QUOTE (Sakura Blossoms @ Dec 14 2009, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Having important potentially world-saving climate talks is pretty useless, as there are just too many nations ridiculously opposed to them:

http://news.yahoo.co...p_on_sc/climate


Yeah, the Chinese aren't quiet ready to harm themselves over it. And this was before Climategate. Hard to believe they'd support anything that didn't exempt them. Both China and India have consistently been opposed to such regulation and are currently exempt from Kyoto. So, Chinese opposition is no surprise.

And the leaking of the Danish Texts pissed alot of nations off after learning they may be about to screwed by the Danes, Brits, and Americans.

Can't imagine why they don't want to take it in the rear for first world nations.

#557 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 03:55 PM

QUOTE (Nate River @ Dec 1 2009, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As to Bush, the issue really came up for judicial nominations when Republicans tried to eliminate the filibuster for judicial nominess because Democrat obstruction was so bad that they were unable to fill a large number of judicial vacanies that really needed to be filled. The Gang of 14 prevented this so it never happened.


Ironically, Obama is having even more trouble getting vacancies filled. And he has a supposedly filibuster-proof majority, but the Republicans insist upon complaining about each and every one, even when the nominee has a Republican sponsor from that state. And the Democrats are completely pathetic so they don't do anything about it.


QUOTE (Nate River @ Dec 8 2009, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Neither of these are viable alternatives at this point nor are they close to being so.

Both are extemely expensive, unreliable, and inefficient forms of energy that, especially in the case of wind, eat up massive amounts of land and come with their own sets of hazards. People near wind turbines often complain of the noise pollution and there is the issue of birds flying into the turbines. Land used for wind turbines can't be used for something else, which isn't a big deal in a place like west Texas, but may be a huge deal in other places.


If well placed (like not in major migratory flyways), the number of birds killed by turbines is insignificant compared to the numbers killed by domestic cats or by cars. And the land that they sit on can be dual-purposed, such as for grazing (probably also in those areas like west Texas). They can also be used off the coast, but people like the Kennedys don't like the idea of wind turbines five miles off that would obstruct their view when using binoculars.

There are a lot of issues with wind or solar, but they're being exaggerated.

QUOTE (Nate River @ Dec 8 2009, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One of the great ironies is that many of those who support Climate change often chastise people like me as not caring about the poor, yet, those same people tell poor African nations that for the sake of the planet they must use wind and solar and can't use their plentiful oil and coal and, thus, in effect demand those countries sit on their resources and remain in poverty.


The only area that I've seen people insist upon using solar or wind energy in Africa is in remote areas. It was even specifically discussed in Swindle and an economist decried the climate change people for pushing solar power upon those poor Africans. Then they went out to a remote village and explained that it would be better for the villagers to be able to use an electrical generator that required them to buy oil that would be delivered to them over hundreds of miles of dirt roads instead of one that's solar powered.

Most of Africa doesn't have coal or oil resources. The bulk of the coal in Africa is in just a few nations, like South Africa. And most of the oil goes straight to the West.

QUOTE (Nate River @ Dec 8 2009, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I suppose I might revisit the Climate Change issue when those guys at East Anglian can explain why I should trust anything they say at this point.


The guys at East Anglia are one of about a bajillion different groups working on climate change and sources of global climate change data. So far, out of the 1000 e-mails, I've seen one that mentions using a trick to obscure data. That trick is inexcusable. But it doesn't mean that everything else that was done by other people at other sites is wrong. There are a couple e-mails that direct others to delete e-mails which also sounds dodgy, but not something that I'd argue is fraudulent or means that whatever data those researchers might be talking about is false. One e-mail mentions wishing physical harm on Patrick Michaels - who lied before Congress about Hansen's climate change models in order to discredit them. (Hansen presented three models based on separate assumptions and listed one as most likely. Michaels ignored two of the models - including the one that was most likely and also the one that matched best to the inputs - to present the third and say that Hansen was being alarmist.)

QUOTE (Nate River @ Dec 14 2009, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, the Chinese aren't quiet ready to harm themselves over it. And this was before Climategate. Hard to believe they'd support anything that didn't exempt them. Both China and India have consistently been opposed to such regulation and are currently exempt from Kyoto. So, Chinese opposition is no surprise.

And the leaking of the Danish Texts pissed alot of nations off after learning they may be about to screwed by the Danes, Brits, and Americans.

Can't imagine why they don't want to take it in the rear for first world nations.


Yeah, I'm not expecting a lot from Copenhagen - again. *sigh*

China and India want it to be non-binding and the Western powers don't want to pay (much) to the developing nations to develop sustainably or for mitigation.

If I was really optimistic, I'd think that maybe the compromise would be that China and India would accept binding levels in exchange for more money except that the money needs to go to other developing nations. China is already getting billions to develop cleaner tech and a lot of it is going to projects that were already slated by the Chinese.

Edited by Nick Soapdish, 14 December 2009 - 04:06 PM.


#558 Sakura Blossoms

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 07:50 PM

They finally got a clue and ended the boycott:

http://news.yahoo.co...GV2ZWxvcGluZ2Nv

#559 Strangelove

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 02:15 AM

http://www.foreignaf...starve-the-poor

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#560 Pite

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:21 AM

Besides the current subject of discussion. I recently began listening to a podcast Dan Carlin's Common Sense. He a political commentator but the thing is that he doesn't have a position, but rather an opinion on certain things. You may agree or not but he makes you think so I think he's ought to be heard out.
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