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Analysis of NS scenes post-ending


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#541 DrK

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:28 PM

Bench scene.
 
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At this point you have the debacle where the real Sasuke returns and Sakura trashes Naruto for being an orphan. This infuriates Sasuke who is also an orphan so he tells Sakura that she makes him sick. Truly, SS was planned from day 1. Honestly, even if Sasuke wasn't himself an orphan (Something Sakura certainly would have been aware of), it's hard to imagine how she thought saying that would make him like her.
 
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What happens in this scene? Naruto henges himself to look like Sasuke so he can have a chance to talk to Sakura. He sees her determination and thinks that he finally understands why he likes her. He runs off with a stomachache when they're about to kiss. Then Real Sasuke shows up and verbally dismantles Sakura. Sakura thinks that in the future, she should probably be nicer to Naruto because being put down by someone you like hurts, as she discovered.
 
Why is this significant? Well, Naruto learns something about why he likes Sakura. The scene also establishes that Naruto understands her well enough to say exactly what she wanted to hear. Also, Sakura never realized that this was in fact Naruto talking to her. No one bothered to tell her and she didn't ask either of them.

 

The inner Sakura dialogue shows how shallow her feelings for Sasuke were. She wanted to possess him. She thinks "He's mine!!!", as if he's a great prize. There are no thoughts like "I can't wait until I'll be able to make him feel better about his dead family!". I realize that Inner Sakura acts a certain way as a rule, but it's also the case that Inner Sakura is her real feelings. See the scene where Naruto pranks Kakashi with the eraser. Though she certainly got closer to Sasuke later on, and would have grown to care about him legitimately, there's no indication that the romantic feelings ever evolved in any way. And certainly no indication of any depth whatsoever at this point.

 
So what does this mean for NaruSaku? The reader has an expectation that at a later date, it would be revealed that it was in fact Naruto who said the exact words she wanted to hear. This could very easily have been used to make the pairing canon, but it was never revisited. In the end it meant nothing. The fact that they never came back to it considering Sakura ultimately did end up with Sasuke, is frustrating at best and has disturbing implications at worst. 

 

It's a really questionable choice to have Sakura never actually find out what happened. As written, the scene made her think something about Sasuke's personality and the way he views her that actually wasn't true. She never finds out about this despite the fact that she does end up getting married to Sasuke. It's not the most heartwarming thing to consider.

 
Did Naruto love Sakura at this point? Actually, no. She was just introduced in the same chapter as "a girl Naruto really likes". So it hadn't progressed that far yet.
 
Did Sakura love Naruto at this point? She hated him at this point.
 
Rating: 4. I gotta say that it's not the worst. Because this girl doesn't really like Naruto. There are other scenes that are worse because Sakura obviously likes or even loves Naruto, and then in the ending that is just thrown out the window. Also the clearly established fact that Sakura was not willing to abandon Naruto for anything, and then she abandons Naruto for someone who isn't even in the village.
 
But I digress. Storytelling wise, it is extremely bad that this scene exists at all. It's a red herring targeted at Sakura. Sakura is misled by this red herring, the contents of which are that Sasuke likes her, likes her forehead and could understand how she felt and even wanted to kiss her. She never learns that it was Naruto. So it doesn't even work, because it's a mislead that ends up pointing to the actual result due to a lack of integrity by Kishimoto and his editors.
 
There are some mitigating factors. The complimentary line is followed up by "That sounds like something Naruto would say" to which Sakura is like "damn", so the weight of it is somewhat reduced since Naruto-As-Sasuke essentially played it off as a joke. The real Sasuke roasting her afterwards also contributes to this. You are given a fair bit of reason to think that Sakura was suspicious of what had taken place, but it's not confirmed and there is every reason to think that she absolutely wanted it to be Sasuke who said those things so she would overlook any misgivings that she did have.
 
It doesn't make sense that canonically, this scene made Sakura love Sasuke or was even a major contributor to it. Think about it logically. We know for essentially a fact that NS was intended. This scene was written with that end result in mind. It's possible, though we will likely never know, that this scene would have been used to make NS canon. If that was the case, then obviously the scene did contribute to Sakura loving Sasuke. But at some point near the end, plans were changed to NHSS. The ending was changed. The changed ending trashes the meaning of the whole manga including this scene. This scene was supposed to be a red herring for Sakura and character development for Naruto liking Sakura. Instead, it's just nothing. It can't continue to mean something while all the other NS scenes mean nothing. It has to also mean nothing.

 

It's not at all reasonable to give this scene credit for all of Sakura's attachment to Sasuke to the point where the knowledge can completely flip everything on its head. It only works to resolve Sakura being conflicted between Naruto and Sasuke. Like in the canon where Sakura asks to go with Sasuke, I can't really imagine knowing about the bench scene would matter. She's really eager to abandon Konoha and Naruto just to be in his presence. But knowing the truth about this scene is going to give her a pure love for Naruto and she's going to completely forget about Sasuke? It's just not realistic.

 
There are a lot of stories where Sakura, not knowing the truth of the bench scene, is going to marry Sasuke and Naruto suffers a huge amount of psychological anguish and torment as a result. Sakura is aware of this and doesn't do kitten about it. At a later date, their relationship ends and Sakura learns the truth about the bench scene and is like "Damn it, I only loved Sasuke because he said that to me back then. If I had only known that was Naruto, I wouldn't have had any feelings for Sasuke at all and would have married Naruto. For some reason I never thought to ask Sasuke about it despite how vitally important it was." It gets worse when they try to paint it as actually being Naruto's fault. No, Fanfic Sakura, it was your fault. Naruto was your best friend, you knew he loved you, and you knew that he was suffering over the fact that you were going to marry Sasuke, yet you didn't even try to explain it to him. It is a virtual certainty that one of the topics of conversation would have been why you love Sasuke so much still despite all of the things you went through with Naruto and Sasuke himself. At this point you would have brought up the bench scene and Naruto could have told you that it was actually him. Then you could have been happy. Instead, you just ignored him.
 
It's not even in character. Sakura would never accept being the source of so much suffering for Naruto. She would hate herself for it. She would seriously consider every possible solution to solve it, and this would have included just not being with Sasuke. At the very least, she would keep trying to talk to Naruto and make him understand why she thinks she needs to be with Sasuke. She would never give up. And in this scenario, the reason why she thinks she should be with Sasuke is because of the bench scene. So the problem would have been solved. If she didn't already solve it by asking Sasuke about it very early on. Why wouldn't she? What the hell else is there to talk about with him? You have nothing in common.
 
But the idea is absolutely ridiculous. You cannot take one compliment and have that outweigh everything that has ever happened. The Sakura in those stories, and Sakura in general, has a sum of experiences with Sasuke, and a sum of experiences with Naruto. If the sum of experiences with Sasuke + the bench scene outweighs what she has with Naruto by so much that she's willing to cut Naruto out of her life completely just to be with Sasuke, then she would have picked Sasuke no matter what. Even canon Sakura ended up being better than the Sakuras in those stories, despite the fact that those Sakuras did end up with Naruto usually. For the simple reason that the canon Sakura chose to be with Sasuke but without the stipulation that Naruto would be utterly destroyed as a result.
 
While I think the existence of this scene is really screwed up given the ending, I'm really not interested in exploring the idea that Sakura chose to fall in love with Sasuke, date Sasuke, marry Sasuke, get knocked up by Sasuke, then chase him around the nations before finally settling down to raise his daughter alone and be his housekeeper until she finally dies a lonely death - all based on something Naruto impulsively said while wearing his face. It's hugely dismissive of the character that Sakura actually was. Sakura did those things because Kishi was told that they would make more money with a NH/SS ending. That's the only reason. You can't take this ending, which was an asspull, and ascribe meaning to past scenes based on it. Because said scenes were not written with that ending in mind.

 

This scene itself helps prove that. Why on earth, if Sakura was intended to be with Sasuke, would they write in ANYTHING that could imply that Sakura's love for Sasuke was in part based on something Naruto did? No writer would do something like that. Especially when Sakura never even finds out about it.
 
 
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It was confirmed by Kishi in an interview that Sakura loves Sasuke because she just does. There is no reason.
 
This scene only has narrative value if she ends up loving Naruto, and canonically, she didn't. So it's just a waste of paper.


Edited by DrK, 06 February 2018 - 02:09 PM.


#542 jak123

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:47 PM

Bench scene
 
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At this point you have the debacle where the real Sasuke returns and Sakura trashes Naruto for being an orphan. This infuriates Sasuke who is also an orphan so he tells Sakura that she makes him sick. Truly, SS was planned from day 1. Honestly, even if Sasuke wasn't himself an orphan (Something Sakura certainly would have been aware of), it's hard to imagine how she thought saying that would make him like her.
 
Naruto-Chapter319_zps2afdd50f.png
 
What happens in this scene? Naruto henges himself to look like Sasuke so he can have a chance to talk to Sakura. He sees her determination and thinks that he finally understands why he likes her. He runs off with a stomachache when they're about to kiss. Then Real Sasuke shows up and verbally dismantles Sakura. Sakura thinks that in the future, she should probably be nicer to Naruto because being put down by someone you like hurts, as she discovered.
 
Why is this significant? Well, Naruto learns something about why he likes Sakura. The scene also establishes that Naruto understands her well enough to say exactly what she wanted to hear. Also, Sakura never realized that this was in fact Naruto talking to her. No one bothered to tell her and she didn't ask either of them.
 
So what does this mean for NaruSaku? The reader has an expectation that at a later date, it would be revealed that it was in fact Naruto who said the exact words she wanted to hear. This could very easily have been used to make the pairing canon, but it was never revisited. In the end it meant nothing. The fact that they never came back to it considering Sakura ultimately did end up with Sasuke, is frustrating at best and has disturbing implications at worst. 
 
Did Naruto love Sakura at this point? Actually, no. She was just introduced in the same chapter as "a girl Naruto really likes". So it hadn't progressed that far yet.
 
Did Sakura love Naruto at this point? She hated him at this point.
 
Rating: 4. I gotta say that it's not the worst. Because this girl doesn't really like Naruto. There are other scenes that are worse because Sakura obviously likes or even loves Naruto, and then in the ending that is just thrown out the window. Also the clearly established fact that Sakura was not willing to abandon Naruto for anything, and then she abandons Naruto for someone who isn't even in the village.
 
But I digress. Storytelling wise, it is extremely bad that this scene exists at all. It's a red herring targeted at Sakura. Sakura is misled by this red herring, the contents of which are that Sasuke likes her, likes her forehead and could understand how she felt and even wanted to kiss her. She never learns that it was Naruto. So it doesn't even work, because it's a mislead that ends up pointing to the actual result due to a lack of integrity by Kishimoto and his editors.
 
There are some mitigating factors. The complimentary line is followed up by "That sounds like something Naruto would say" to which Sakura is like "damn", so the weight of it is somewhat reduced. Sasuke roasting her afterwards also contributes to this. You are given a fair bit of reason to think that Sakura was suspicious of what had taken place, but it's not confirmed and there is every reason to think that she absolutely wanted it to be Sasuke who said those things so she would overlook any misgivings that she did have.
 
It doesn't make sense that canonically, this scene made Sakura love Sasuke or was even a major contributor to it. Think about it logically. We know for essentially a fact that NS was intended. This scene was written with that end result in mind. It's possible, though we will likely never know, that this scene would have been used to make NS canon. If that was the case, then obviously the scene did contribute to Sakura loving Sasuke. But at some point near the end, plans were changed to NHSS. The ending was changed. The changed ending trashes the meaning of the whole manga including this scene. This scene was supposed to be a red herring for Sakura and character development for Naruto liking Sakura. Instead, it's just nothing. It can't continue to mean something while all the other NS scenes mean nothing. It has to also mean nothing.
 
It's not at all reasonable to give this scene credit for all of Sakura's attachment to Sasuke to the point where the knowledge can completely flip everything on its head. It only works to resolve Sakura being conflicted between Naruto and Sasuke. Like in the canon where Sakura asks to go with Sasuke, I can't really imagine knowing about the bench scene would matter. She's really eager to abandon Konoha and Naruto just to be in his presence. But knowing the truth about this scene is going to give her a pure love for Naruto and she's going to completely forget about Sasuke? It's just not realistic.
 
There are a lot of stories where Sakura, not knowing the truth of the bench scene, is going to marry Sasuke and Naruto suffers a huge amount of psychological anguish and torment as a result. Sakura is aware of this and doesn't do kitten about it. At a later date, their relationship ends and Sakura learns the truth about the bench scene and is like "Damn it, I only loved Sasuke because he said that to me back then. If I had only known that was Naruto, I wouldn't have had any feelings for Sasuke at all and would have married Naruto. For some reason I never thought to ask Sasuke about it despite how vitally important it was." It gets worse when they try to paint it as actually being Naruto's fault. No, Fanfic Sakura, it was your fault. Naruto was your best friend, you knew he loved you, and you knew that he was suffering over the fact that you were going to marry Sasuke, yet you didn't even try to explain it to him. It is a virtual certainty that one of the topics of conversation would have been why you love Sasuke so much still despite all of the things you went through with Naruto and Sasuke himself. At this point you would have brought up the bench scene and Naruto could have told you that it was actually him. Then you could have been happy. Instead, you just ignored him.
 
It's not even in character. Sakura would never accept being the source of so much suffering for Naruto. She would hate herself for it. She would seriously consider every possible solution to solve it, and this would have included just not being with Sasuke. At the very least, she would keep trying to talk to Naruto and make him understand why she thinks she needs to be with Sasuke. She would never give up. And in this scenario, the reason why she thinks she should be with Sasuke is because of the bench scene. So the problem would have been solved. If she didn't already solve it by asking Sasuke about it very early on. Why wouldn't she? What the hell else is there to talk about with him? You have nothing in common.
 
But the idea is absolutely ridiculous. You cannot take one compliment and have that outweigh everything that has ever happened. The Sakura in those stories, and Sakura in general, has a sum of experiences with Sasuke, and a sum of experiences with Naruto. If the sum of experiences with Sasuke + the bench scene outweighs what she has with Naruto by so much that she's willing to cut Naruto out of her life completely just to be with Sasuke, then she would have picked Sasuke no matter what. Even canon Sakura ended up being better than the Sakuras in those stories, despite the fact that those Sakuras did end up with Naruto usually. For the simple reason that the canon Sakura chose to be with Sasuke but without the stipulation that Naruto would be utterly destroyed as a result.
 
While I think the existence of this scene is really screwed up given the ending, I'm really not interested in exploring the idea that Sakura chose to fall in love with Sasuke, date Sasuke, marry Sasuke, get knocked up by Sasuke, then chase him around the nations before finally settling down to raise his daughter alone and be his housekeeper until she finally dies a lonely death - all based on something Naruto impulsively said while wearing his face. It's hugely dismissive of the character that Sakura actually was. Sakura did those things because Kishi was told that they would make more money with a NH/SS ending. That's the only reason. You can't take this ending, which was an asspull, and ascribe meaning to past scenes based on it. Because said scenes were not written with that ending in mind. This scene itself helps prove that. Why on earth, if Sakura was intended to be with Sasuke, would they write in ANYTHING that could imply that Sakura's love for Sasuke was in part based on something Naruto did? No writer would do something like that.
 
 
Naruto-Chapter318_zps51111c2c.png
 
It was confirmed by Kishi in an interview that Sakura loves Sasuke because she just does. There is no reason.
 
This scene only has narrative value if she ends up loving Naruto, and canonically, she didn't. So it's just a waste of paper.

To me, this is interesting for 2 reasons. Sakura's ideal of Sasuke is really Naruto and this is started her thinking about Naruto more. If Kishimoto was a competent writer then you could had her find out that her fondest memory of Sasuke was actually Naruto. The more I read about all of these development that Naruto and Sakura had, the more annoyed I get. The ending makes no sense when compared to the rest of the story.



#543 tricksie

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 10:06 PM

This.

 

I think that the bench scene gave Sakura the wrong idea about Sasuke. Of course, I have my doubts because it's never mentioned again (except for Naruto's flashbacks during the fake confession), but I think Naruto ironically ruined his chances with Sakura with a false image of Sasuke that he created. It's debatable, but this theory has been on my mind for a while.

I think it was just Kishimoto's terrible writing. Doesn't Sasuke poke her like Naruto did at the end?  It still doesn't make sense though. If that is what made her pick Sasuke over all the development that she and Naruto went through together, then I have an even lower opinion of the series.

The bench scene and all those little NS/SS build-up scenes support a story that didn't pan out, unfortunately for us. I don't think Sakura based her love on that one scene, but in the end, the only connection from their past that is brought full circle is the Sasuke-family-forehead-tap. Even with that little gesture, it's completely ambiguous whether Sasuke sees Sakura as a love interest or a sister. None of the most important NS scenes are ever revisited. But Sakura's not alone in acting out of character in the end — Naruto also abandons his love for Sakura, without explanation. Both Sakura and Naruto's actions/love interests are completely OOC.

 

Bench scene.

 

... 

 

While I think the existence of this scene is really screwed up given the ending, I'm really not interested in exploring the idea that Sakura chose to fall in love with Sasuke, date Sasuke, marry Sasuke, get knocked up by Sasuke, then chase him around the nations before finally settling down to raise his daughter alone and be his housekeeper until she finally dies a lonely death - all based on something Naruto impulsively said while wearing his face. It's hugely dismissive of the character that Sakura actually was. Sakura did those things because Kishi was told that they would make more money with a NH/SS ending. That's the only reason. You can't take this ending, which was an asspull, and ascribe meaning to past scenes based on it. Because said scenes were not written with that ending in mind.

 

This scene itself helps prove that. Why on earth, if Sakura was intended to be with Sasuke, would they write in ANYTHING that could imply that Sakura's love for Sasuke was in part based on something Naruto did? No writer would do something like that. Especially when Sakura never even finds out about it.
 
It was confirmed by Kishi in an interview that Sakura loves Sasuke because she just does. There is no reason.
 
This scene only has narrative value if she ends up loving Naruto, and canonically, she didn't. So it's just a waste of paper.

Yes, yes, yes. The ending renders the bench scene — and all the interpersonal developments — pointless. And you're right: I think it was all dumped in the end for a money grab by Kishi and Co. I think the scenes supported an ending that they scrapped.

 

To me, this is interesting for 2 reasons. Sakura's ideal of Sasuke is really Naruto and this is started her thinking about Naruto more. If Kishimoto was a competent writer then you could had her find out that her fondest memory of Sasuke was actually Naruto. The more I read about all of these development that Naruto and Sakura had, the more annoyed I get. The ending makes no sense when compared to the rest of the story.

 

Yes, the fact that there is no support interpersonal stuff between the characters in the manga (like ret-conning Sakura's changing interest or Sasuke's change of heart towards her or Naruto's abandonment of his feelings), proves the Kishimoto just didn't care about those characters anymore. 

 

Hinata was the only one who got heaps and heaps of storyline written around her. The rest got nothing. 

 

For me, having Naruto wind up with Hinata is more akin to Sakura marrying Rock Lee in the end, and then saying she'd had feelings for him all along.

 

I think her thing with Sasuke was just to produce an heir for the plot, not to demonstrate romantic, mutual love or promote character resolutions. So, I don't see NH and SS as two happy couples, or being flip sides of the same coin. NH got some development for Hinata's sake, but both relationships are completely out-of-character.



#544 DrK

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 10:06 PM

To me, this is interesting for 2 reasons. Sakura's ideal of Sasuke is really Naruto and this is started her thinking about Naruto more. If Kishimoto was a competent writer then you could had her find out that her fondest memory of Sasuke was actually Naruto. The more I read about all of these development that Naruto and Sakura had, the more annoyed I get. The ending makes no sense when compared to the rest of the story.

Yeah, that is how I feel. The ending isn't just a disappointment, it doesn't make any sense. Stuff was established about Naruto and Sakura that ended up being moot in light of the ending, or contradicted entirely.
 
The level of seriousness given to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke would have been something to criticize no matter what happened. But it's a farce that she actually did end up with Sasuke despite the fact that no member of Team 7 ever did anything to make the reader think that this was even a possibility. Naruto reinforced over and over that Sakura is the one he really loves. Sasuke kept saying he doesn't really like her and sees no reason to be with her. And Sakura showed time and time again that she cared more about Naruto than anyone else. No one would actually choose to end it like this.
 

For me, having Naruto wind up with Hinata is more akin to Sakura marrying Rock Lee in the end, and then saying she'd had feelings for him all along.


To be honest, if Sasuke had died at the end, that would have had a good chance of happening. Because Naruto has to be with Hinata regardless of how little sense it makes.

Edited by DrK, 30 January 2018 - 10:12 PM.


#545 jak123

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 11:25 PM

Yes, yes, yes. The ending renders the bench scene — and all the interpersonal developments — pointless. And you're right: I think it was all dumped in the end for a money grab by Kishi and Co. I think the scenes supported an ending that they scrapped.

 

Makes the most sense because it seems like I remember that even with advertising, it was always Naruto and Sakura. I bet you could get non-anime people to read the story and without knowing the ending, ask them who they think ends up together. Bet you 9 times out of 10 that it's NaruSaku. Kishimoto has to be lying or dumb. There's no way that he had Naruto/Hinata and Sasuke/Sakura planned from the beginning. If he did, then it just shows how awful of a writer he is considering even his wife thought NaruSaku was going to happen and she probably read it before it was released in SJ.



#546 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 11:36 PM

The bench scene and all those little NS/SS build-up scenes support a story that didn't pan out, unfortunately for us. I don't think Sakura based her love on that one scene, but in the end, the only connection from their past that is brought full circle is the Sasuke-family-forehead-tap. Even with that little gesture, it's completely ambiguous whether Sasuke sees Sakura as a love interest or a sister. None of the most important NS scenes are ever revisited. But Sakura's not alone in acting out of character in the end — Naruto also abandons his love for Sakura, without explanation. Both Sakura and Naruto's actions/love interests are completely OOC.

 

Yes, yes, yes. The ending renders the bench scene — and all the interpersonal developments — pointless. And you're right: I think it was all dumped in the end for a money grab by Kishi and Co. I think the scenes supported an ending that they scrapped.

 

No kidding, Tricksie-chan! Which is why I wish I could use telepathy or something because to me, Naruto was a story about Naruto being able to show the world who he really was, rather than people seeing him as Kurama himself or his vessel and his being able to get what he really desired, and what did he get? NOTHING!!! X_X



#547 jak123

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 12:06 AM

 

No kidding, Tricksie-chan! Which is why I wish I could use telepathy or something because to me, Naruto was a story about Naruto being able to show the world who he really was, rather than people seeing him as Kurama himself or his vessel and his being able to get what he really desired, and what did he get? NOTHING!!! X_X

He gets Genjutsu'd into believing he's in love with someone he's only interacted with a few times instead of the girl he's loved forever and was always by her side.


Edited by jak123, 31 January 2018 - 12:08 AM.


#548 Phantom_999

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 01:25 AM



But remember, his fixation was also because he wanted to make Sakura smile again and bringing back Team 7 was the best way to do that. Naruto went above and beyond for Sakura.

 

Problem with that, he was IGNORANT of how he was making Sakura smile all that time in part II. Without Sasuke might I add, and again that is completely due to his delusions and nostalgia of Team 7 back when they first formed it. He doesn't realize how much he was making Sakura happy and that she was gradually getting over her childish crush on Sasuke. That is the main problem, Naruto was fixated on how things were in Part I rather than how they are (at the time of part II)


Edited by Phantom_999, 18 July 2018 - 11:18 AM.

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#549 jak123

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 02:06 AM

 

Problem with that, he was IGNORANT of how he was making Sakura smile all that time in part II. Without Sasuke might I add, and again that is completely due to his delusions and nostalgia of Team 7 back when they first formed it. He doesn't realized how much he was making Sakura happy and that she was gradually getting over her childish crush on Sasuke. That is the main problem, Naruti was fixated on how things were in Part I rather tan how they are (at the time of part II)

Naruto wasn't ignorant, Kishimoto just failed to have him notice.



#550 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 09:24 AM

Yes, the fact that there is no support interpersonal stuff between the characters in the manga (like ret-conning Sakura's changing interest or Sasuke's change of heart towards her or Naruto's abandonment of his feelings), proves the Kishimoto just didn't care about those characters anymore. 

 

Hinata was the only one who got heaps and heaps of storyline written around her. The rest got nothing. 

 

For me, having Naruto wind up with Hinata is more akin to Sakura marrying Rock Lee in the end, and then saying she'd had feelings for him all along.

 

I think her thing with Sasuke was just to produce an heir for the plot, not to demonstrate romantic, mutual love or promote character resolutions. So, I don't see NH and SS as two happy couples, or being flip sides of the same coin. NH got some development for Hinata's sake, but both relationships are completely out-of-character.

And it's not even good storyline, much less development. (Good) Development would imply that Hinatatas actually changes for the better and can affect those around her in-universe. She doesn't. All that's ever done is repeating what we already knew since we were introduced to her - that she "loves" Naruto (pfft). Not only are those moments never revisited, but she never becomes a better or stronger character because of it, much less Naruto or anyone else because of those moments, and it doesn't even affect the main storyline at all. You could replace Hinatatas with ANYONE else, change a few words around, and get the same type of results, so she's not even "special" or "unique" in any sort of way like Neji was and so could never offer anything interesting to the story that could actually have any sort of meaningful impact.

Unfortunately, like a lot of things, Neji and his situation were just swept under the rug not only because of Neji's death, thus removing his character entirely, but also the constant Uchiha-wanking and Naruto's ever-growing obsession over Sasuke. Everything took a distant second to Sasuke, even Sakura's own feelings. Naruto wanted to think he was doing her a favor by pushing her away back towards Sasuke, which only further gives the impression that Naruto is NOT a truly empathetic person who can read or "understand" someone UNLESS that person's situation is directly relatable to his own on some level (Sasuke = "alone", Haku = "weapon", Gaara = Jinchuriki, Nagato = Jiraiya's student and peace-seeker, Obito = Hokage wannabe).


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#551 Phantom_999

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 11:14 PM



Naruto wasn't ignorant, Kishimoto just failed to have him notice.

 

Well oblivious would be a more accurate description, but my point stands. Naruto did not want to see what was in front of him and wanted things to go back to "how they were" instead of accepting things for "how they are" that includes the fact that Sasuke was endangering Sakura and was endangering everyone he holds dear. But nope, Naruto was ignoring all of Sasuke's transgressions because of his practically gay crush on Sasuke, and their bromance gone sour, Plus he INSISTS  on bringing Team 7 back together even though Sasuke DOES NOT WANT TO and even Kakashi and Sakura started to see it as pointless to try. and again Most of all Naruto can't seem to bring him self to see how right he is for Sakura because he wants to escape reality and not accept his "sexy beautiful man candy rival" is not a good person and did EVERYTHING of his own free will   


Edited by Phantom_999, 01 February 2018 - 11:16 PM.

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#552 DrK

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 10:31 AM

Eh, I forgot to mention how the inner Sakura stuff shows how shallow her feelings for Sasuke were, in the bench scene analysis. She doesn't truly care for him or want to help him with his problems, she just wants to own him. So I edited that in.

 

But writing that analysis to begin with made me start to feel creative. So I ended up writing a story that I think you guys would like. It really focuses on the ideas that I was consistently bringing up in this thread about Sakura, her admirable qualities, and the way she views Naruto. And it references some of the more important scenes that I discussed here. Hopefully not in a ham-fisted way. Anyway, if you guys liked what I had to say, then you would probably like it. It's not very long, less than 10k words.

 

https://m.fanfiction.net/s/12823299/

 

If you want to know who I think Sakura really was, then you should read it. I really do think it's good. Hopefully you think so too.

 

But either way, I will try to do a post about the Minato scene later this week. If not this week, then the next. We're getting close to the end. I want the POAL to be the last scene I talk about, so if anyone has a scene that they simply must have me rant about, then say something soon. It's OK if not, we've already done almost all the important ones.



#553 Gravenimage

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 12:16 PM

Eh, I forgot to mention how the inner Sakura stuff shows how shallow her feelings for Sasuke were, in the bench scene analysis. She doesn't truly care for him or want to help him with his problems, she just wants to own him. So I edited that in.

 

But writing that analysis to begin with made me start to feel creative. So I ended up writing a story that I think you guys would like. It really focuses on the ideas that I was consistently bringing up in this thread about Sakura, her admirable qualities, and the way she views Naruto. And it references some of the more important scenes that I discussed here. Hopefully not in a ham-fisted way. Anyway, if you guys liked what I had to say, then you would probably like it. It's not very long, less than 10k words.

 

https://m.fanfiction.net/s/12823299/

 

If you want to know who I think Sakura really was, then you should read it. I really do think it's good. Hopefully you think so too.

 

But either way, I will try to do a post about the Minato scene later this week. If not this week, then the next. We're getting close to the end. I want the POAL to be the last scene I talk about, so if anyone has a scene that they simply must have me rant about, then say something soon. It's OK if not, we've already done almost all the important ones.

 

Already read it and gave my reviews. Nice story I really like it because it shows how truly shallow was Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. They were never real. They were actually reinforced thanks to Naruto for transforming into Sasuke during the bench scene. I do hope you plan on doing an scene of Sakura beating the crap of Hinata pretty please..... :wibble:


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#554 DrK

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 12:47 PM

Already read it and gave my reviews. Nice story I really like it because it shows how truly shallow was Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. They were never real. They were actually reinforced thanks to Naruto for transforming into Sasuke during the bench scene. I do hope you plan on doing an scene of Sakura beating the crap of Hinata pretty please..... :wibble:

I don't plan to continue it, cause basically the whole thrust of the story is in Sakura slowly sharing with Naruto how much she has always cared about him as Naruto realizes how massively he underestimated her, and this makes him feel like he's discovering how amazing she is for the first time again. And Naruto finally accepting how important his happiness is to Sakura.

 

But yeah, that stuff all happened already. I can't really continue it because the impact of anything that happened after that would be so much less. If I go on it's basically a normal story about NS being a couple which isn't what I set out to write so much.

 

But thanks for reading! I really liked the stories you wrote for Naruto too. I saw why you stopped writing them but it's a shame that you did. They were interesting and funny.


Edited by DrK, 06 February 2018 - 01:13 PM.


#555 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 05:12 PM

Eh, I forgot to mention how the inner Sakura stuff shows how shallow her feelings for Sasuke were, in the bench scene analysis. She doesn't truly care for him or want to help him with his problems, she just wants to own him. So I edited that in.

 

Come to think about that, dude, I didn't even realize how legit that is with Inner Sakura....



#556 tricksie

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 05:12 PM

This.

 

I think that the bench scene gave Sakura the wrong idea about Sasuke. Of course, I have my doubts because it's never mentioned again (except for Naruto's flashbacks during the fake confession), but I think Naruto ironically ruined his chances with Sakura with a false image of Sasuke that he created. It's debatable, but this theory has been on my mind for a while.

Yeah, it's ironic that Sakura likes Sasuke because he's disguised as Naruto. I'm sure that this was going to be revisited in an alternative universe where kishi wrote an NS ending. The only reason it remains in the past is because none of the characters changed from those Part 1 characters. None of them evolved. So there's no reason to go back and explain it. 

 

And it's not even good storyline, much less development. (Good) Development would imply that Hinatatas actually changes for the better and can affect those around her in-universe. She doesn't. All that's ever done is repeating what we already knew since we were introduced to her - that she "loves" Naruto (pfft). Not only are those moments never revisited, but she never becomes a better or stronger character because of it, much less Naruto or anyone else because of those moments, and it doesn't even affect the main storyline at all. You could replace Hinatatas with ANYONE else, change a few words around, and get the same type of results, so she's not even "special" or "unique" in any sort of way like Neji was and so could never offer anything interesting to the story that could actually have any sort of meaningful impact.

Unfortunately, like a lot of things, Neji and his situation were just swept under the rug not only because of Neji's death, thus removing his character entirely, but also the constant Uchiha-wanking and Naruto's ever-growing obsession over Sasuke. Everything took a distant second to Sasuke, even Sakura's own feelings. Naruto wanted to think he was doing her a favor by pushing her away back towards Sasuke, which only further gives the impression that Naruto is NOT a truly empathetic person who can read or "understand" someone UNLESS that person's situation is directly relatable to his own on some level (Sasuke = "alone", Haku = "weapon", Gaara = Jinchuriki, Nagato = Jiraiya's student and peace-seeker, Obito = Hokage wannabe).

Right - the fact that Hinata doesn't evolve, and she brings nothing to Naruto's character at all, and Naruto brings nothing to her character development (other than her change from her crush (super passive)), is the big red flag waving over this couple. Neither of them are suited for each other, or add to the other's development.

 

This isn't real life. It's a story. So there's a formula, an equation here. And that is that we're following a character's development. And if they don't contribute to that (if it doesn't add up) then that character shouldn't be there. But you know who does bring about mutual development? Sakura. And her development/her storyline contributes to Naruto's development as well.

 

And yes... this all pales in comparison to how f'd up the story is around Sasuke. It just wipes out all reasoning. Because obsession with him governs them all. While Sasuke has no real development, has no real goals, and faces no real consequences. He's really just the worst.



#557 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 05:15 PM

Yeah, it's ironic that Sakura likes Sasuke because he's disguised as Naruto. I'm sure that this was going to be revisited in an alternative universe where kishi wrote an NS ending. The only reason it remains in the past is because none of the characters changed from those Part 1 characters. None of them evolved. So there's no reason to go back and explain it. 

 

Right - the fact that Hinata doesn't evolve, and she brings nothing to Naruto's character at all, and Naruto brings nothing to her character development (other than her change from her crush (super passive)), is the big red flag waving over this couple. Neither of them are suited for each other, or add to the other's development.

 

This isn't real life. It's a story. So there's a formula, an equation here. And that is that we're following a character's development. And if they don't contribute to that (if it doesn't add up) then that character shouldn't be there. But you know who does bring about mutual development? Sakura. And her development/her storyline contributes to Naruto's development as well.

 

And yes... this all pales in comparison to how f'd up the story is around Sasuke. It just wipes out all reasoning. Because obsession with him governs them all. While Sasuke has no real development, has no real goals, and faces no real consequences. He's really just the worst.

 

Some very good points for sure, Tricksie. :) And even to me when it feels like a character "evolves" in the story, it isn't for better now and then, like with Shikamaru, I feel that his changes after Asuma and his dad died were all to "replace" them, especially with the Asuma thing, as if he could have anticipated from the get go that Hidan had the kind of abilities he had thanks to his worshiping Jashin, and a sign of how he relied too much on his head and not trusting his heart enough in scenarios.

 

But yeah, the worst examples tend to be Sasuke and Hinata for characters not evolving for sure.



#558 Yyubie

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 12:48 AM

The bench scene count as SS moment , simply because Sakura don't know the truth. It is NS moment because "WE" know the truth , but from Sakura point of view it's Sasuke.


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#559 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 01:44 AM

The bench scene count as SS moment , simply because Sakura don't know the truth. It is NS moment because "WE" know the truth , but from Sakura point of view it's Sasuke.

Which is the real pisser of it, since outside of what Sakura saw, we know the truth and it sucks she NEVER got to know it because of the new editors and SP hating her, and Kishimoto basically checking out. X(



#560 jak123

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 01:59 AM

The bench scene count as SS moment , simply because Sakura don't know the truth. It is NS moment because "WE" know the truth , but from Sakura point of view it's Sasuke.

Yeah, and it shows terrible storytelling when she never found out the truth. One of the few moments they had "together" was actually Naruto. That should have been the defining moment for NS. 

 

She finds out that her most prominent memory of Sasuke is actually the guy who's always been there for her and she realizes her feelings for Naruto.






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