749 replies to this topic

[Bail o' Lies]

 

Disagree. Because what did that do for her character? NOTHING. So she would have stayed the same whether she confessed or not. DO you see any progress for her character beyond that point? she was only telling the one person oblivious to her feelings within their fictional universe and beyond the fourth wall, to anyone that gives a kitten and it still amounted to nothing. And I repeat again. NOTHING HAPPENED. The so called target of her affections didn't get the hint even in the movie her wankers/fappers/self inserters/ male self inserters to scumzamaki are so proud of to call canon cause she got what she wanted and by extension themselves. Naruto didn't notice her her more than usual. He didn't interact with her more than usual. He didn't feel anything special towards her, as usual. It literally took over half the movie for him, with his own "so-called friends" stupidly playing matchmaker for him, a genjutsu guilt trip, and a rivalry with a kitten developed, half-a$$ed thought out villain to take poor sweet Hinata out of pity, and because of his rejection from Sakura. Did I miss anything else?  

Probably but only because the movie is that bad.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: Hinata confessing her love in arguably the last good arc cemented her as the heroine that isn't yet overshadows the actual one, Sakura. Therefore, the fans can't see otherwise anymore, leaving Sakura to dust.

Agree or disagree?

Well I will agree to the fans' point of view. I feel like that moment is what stuck to them forever and even though the follow up is non-existent, these fans ate it up and continue to rewind and eat the same one. Sakura came out with her confession but in an absolute worst time. She didn't have enough backup to have her do anything risky or anything that can hurt her character but come back stronger. This is why it's important to have these characters to shine and/or develop.

Hinata is just there, no doubt, but Sakura is around more yet doesn't do much, which is a problem. So her big moment is the one that caused everyone to cement their hatred and I hate to say it but, rightfully so. It doesn't help that the whole scene ended up being a status quo, more so than a real development and no way I'm calling her "I let them solve it without me" moment as an development. That was awful.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: The shipping fans can't blame Kishi and his manga, rather blame goes to Studio Pierrot. The pairings aren't exposed in the manga, so the anime made them as a spotlight. So, Kishi has no fault in this one.

Agree or disagree?

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 08 April 2016 - 01:27 PM.

[Hanabi]

no fault?? this guy teased all the couples till the very end.

[rocci]

Statement: The shipping fans can't blame Kishi and his manga, rather blame goes to Studio Pierrot. The pairings aren't exposed in the manga, so the anime made it as a spotlight. So, Kishi has no fault in this one.

Agree or disagree?

Blame for what?
Shipping war or the state of manga/story.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Blame for what?
Shipping war or the state of manga/story.

Shipping war comes from shippers and shippers are made from somewhere.

[rocci]

Shipping war comes from shippers and shippers are made from somewhere.

Then i have to disagree.
Kishi writing is what make that kind of thing happen in the first place.
It's not like you can't make a status quo love story, but atleast write it with better story.

[Bail o' Lies]

SP can only be blame for over inflating hinata, and the bashing of Sakura really. Mind you, that led to the awful ending. But there would have still been arguments between SNS NS and SS. nH would've just been a complete crack pairing or like Sai/Ino or Choji/Ino. And that's because kishi never setting down what the pairing were. When he was close to doing it with Sakura's confession the fans reaction caused him to back out.

[NeonRanger]

I guess I will somewhat disagree. Kishi never intended a love triangle in the first place, his editor Yahagi did for romance drama. Kishi dragged the pairing wars, but that was because of his assistants and SP, especially SP. Kishi already said that SP wanted to make an NH love story for the last movie. I blame Kishi for being a pushover, but the majority of blame goes to the franchise and the fandom itself, with their extreme bias. 

 

SP, CC2, etc. were already bias over characters as is, but the fandom helped them. As I mentioned with Sakura, SP bashed and made a joke of her character. Not every Naruto fan is a manga reader, most do view and watch the anime and consider it canon. My brother is an avid anime watcher. Not only that but he also follows foreverworld and double4anime and another anime watcher, who are Sakura  bashers, you also have anti-Sakura vids/rants that averages between 20,000-300,000 views compared to Hinata where you can't find one video let alone a vid over 10,000 at the most. You have SNS shippers wanking the bond like it was what made the manga exist in the first place, Uchiha wankers, NH wankers, the whole shipping war in general. It gave SP the push to bash and wank characters in ships to the extreme. I remember the Narubot filler before the ending, with NS moments, we also had RtN and some movies with little NS moments, but then you had NH filler made into canon, more uchiha wank, even more SNS wank, and at times you had Sakura being the bitter heroine who complains about being replaced by Hinata. 

 

I feel that Kishi introduced the problem, franchise played with the problem, but the fandom turned that problem into a bigger problem, in which the franchise used their advantage and told Kishi a solution for the problem. if that makes sense.

[NeonRanger]

Well I will agree to the fans' point of view. I feel like that moment is what stuck to them forever and even though the follow up is non-existent, these fans ate it up and continue to rewind and eat the same one. Sakura came out with her confession but in an absolute worst time. She didn't have enough backup to have her do anything risky or anything that can hurt her character but come back stronger. This is why it's important to have these characters to shine and/or develop.

Hinata is just there, no doubt, but Sakura is around more yet doesn't do much, which is a problem. So her big moment is the one that caused everyone to cement their hatred and I hate to say it but, rightfully so. It doesn't help that the whole scene ended up being a status quo, more so than a real development and no way I'm calling her "I let them solve it without me" moment as an development. That was awful.

 

The issue with Hinata is that despite her lack of screentime, her screentime are at the most significant points in the manga, points which do grab the reader's attention. Not shipping wise, but just when the reader is about to see Naruto stabbed by Pain or give up during the War, suddenly Hinata is there to slap him out of it. You also have Naruto's last moments in the village involve Hinata and the Proud Failure speech in Part 1. Even with NS moments, they weren't big enough to cause doubt about a paring direction. We have good NS moments, but then you have 615 that made the manga cover of 615 and plenty of OPs bad endings since than. Pretty much the only moment they could wank though throughout the nonexistent development, lol. But even so, we had have had lost a lot of shippers with 615 compared to the NS hug and CPR with NH shippers. 

 

Any significant moment involving Sakura was mostly negative for the most part after the Gaara Arc. That confession was placed at the wrong time only because of bad writing. Right after Hinata's suicide romance, she confesses that she loves Naruto. Naruto called her a liar, blah blah, she poisons her teammates, couldn't kill Sasuke, then left it up to SNS to solve the problem, despite also promising Naruto that they'll save Sasuke together. The confession was already shoddy in the first place, and having it clarified by her not stabbing Sasuke and 540 only enforces other readers how her confessions towards Naruto was really false. Sakura was a heroine that was only remained so for the sake of label after the Kage Arc. She had no redeemable qualities since that would make an average reader root for her because she lacked any impactful moments.

 

I personally felt that everything after the confession cemented her heroine status, because it was the only time Kishi was called out for not making Sakura act a heroine in Jump Festa. Since then people decide that Hinata would be the "meh" heroine.

[rocci]

@neon ranger
It's kishi doing.
Yahagi only suggest kishi to incorporate a heroine(sakura) and a rival(sasuke). But it's kishi who put the love triangle because he think it will make their interaction more easier.
The dynamic in team seven is a rip off from slam dunk (& I guess, berserk).

And the reason Hinata has much more "impact" is because her character only think about naruto and nothing else. It has no plot relevant so we can assume it just a fan service.

Edited by rocci, 09 April 2016 - 07:36 AM.

[BlackBird19]

Statement: The shipping fans can't blame Kishi and his manga, rather blame goes to Studio Pierrot. The pairings aren't exposed in the manga, so the anime made them as a spotlight. So, Kishi has no fault in this one.

Agree or disagree?

I disagree. It's Kishi's inability as a writer to keep fans enthralled with the plot and his MC that directly correlated to fans starting to care more about the more trivial aspects of his story. Such as the pairings. Granted there always would've been shippers, but they most likely wouldn't have become as many or as toxic as they did if his readers had a plot and hero that they were even more interested in.

[NeonRanger]

@neon ranger
It's kishi doing.
Yahagi only suggest kishi to incorporate a heroine(sakura) and a rival(sasuke). But it's kishi who put the love triangle because he think it will make their interaction more easier.
The dynamic in team seven is a rip off from slam dunk (& I guess, berserk).

And the reason Hinata has much more "impact" is because her character only think about naruto and nothing else. It has no plot relevant so we can assume it just a fan service.

 

The scenes had an impact because they were relevant to the plot. Had Hinata not been there in 436 or 615, Naruto would have been stabbed or given up. They were pivotal moments in the story. Especially 615, since it's got it's own manga cover and is repeatedly shoved in our faces at certain points of time (if you saw the new ending and others before). Kishi could have put any character but instead it was Hinata. These moments are why Hinata has such a huge dedicated fanbase in the first place. 

 

So Kishi kept the love triangle. Okay. It doesn't matter anyway because Kishi dragged the pairing wars anyway. Which is why he is to blame for starting the problem. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: The shipping fans can't blame Kishi and his manga, rather blame goes to Studio Pierrot. The pairings aren't exposed in the manga, so the anime made them as a spotlight. So, Kishi has no fault in this one.

Agree or disagree?

I disagree. Yes, anime does put them on a spotlight, but most of the times, it has to come from somewhere and don't generate on its own. Case in point, this series. It's pretty clear that there were pairings going around before the end of the series. It may not get a lot of focus but it didn't need to be to make a shipper shipper. I can watch a sports series and while I know love isn't the focus, I can see where the writer is pairing up without the need to do so.

Pairings aren't restricted to romance genre. The genre only gives you an idea of the focus and theme. Just because it doesn't have comedy, doesn't mean it won't have comedy. Genre is there to give you the main interest of its story.

There are series that it doesn't do romance at all and fans will still ship somebody. That said Naruto isn't one. It was clear that there were teases and connections, though lack of for others but they're side characters, up to the point Kishi decided to use it as a foreground and make confession as a plot element, mainly Sakura's confession. It turned out to be an disaster but that's because romance was getting more emphasis than before. With the wrong direction, it was better off with no romance at all.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 09 April 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

The scenes had an impact because they were relevant to the plot. Had Hinata not been there in 436 or 615, Naruto would have been stabbed or given up. They were pivotal moments in the story. Especially 615, since it's got it's own manga cover and is repeatedly shoved in our faces at certain points of time (if you saw the new ending and others before). Kishi could have put any character but instead it was Hinata. These moments are why Hinata has such a huge dedicated fanbase in the first place. 

 

So Kishi kept the love triangle. Okay. It doesn't matter anyway because Kishi dragged the pairing wars anyway. Which is why he is to blame for starting the problem. 

The bold pretty much shows why Hinata also isn't so "special" for those moments like her fanbase like to believe, like she was the only one who could have fulfilled those parts. And it's not solely because of the role itself but also due to just the type of character Naruto was; he saw everyone in Konoha as his "precious people" and so seeing any of them hurt/"killed" on his behalf (in his mind at least) would result in pissing him off like against Pein while any of them encouraging him and whatnot would help boost his morale like against Obito.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: Kishi was never serious about (potential) romance thoughout the entire run. Movies and after chapter 700 not included.

Agree or disagree?

[NeonRanger]

He drag the pairing wars up to the very end. If he cared enough there would have been proper closure for the ships, but he didn't. So I agree. 

Edited by NeonRanger, 09 April 2016 - 08:43 PM.

[rocci]

Statement: Kishi was never serious about (potential) romance thoughout the entire run. Movies and after chapter 700 not included.

Agree or disagree?

Have you seen his serious work? (Narutoxsasuke).

[TouKen4Life3g]

Have you seen his serious work? (Narutoxsasuke).

Touché.

[Shadow1275]

Statement: Kishi was never serious about (potential) romance thoughout the entire run. Movies and after chapter 700 not included.

Agree or disagree?

Disagree. Even in part 1 you had chapter 3, the chapter where Sasuke told naruto that he was the one who protected her coupled with the hokage's whole spiel about growing stronger for those we care about, POAL, Naruto and Sakura going on dates, Sakura's horrified reactions whenever a NH moment came around in part 2, ramen feeding scene, and most damning of all Naruto calling Sakura his girlfriend to his father.

 

Ugh, even going over all of those moments makes me a bit sick.