756 replies to this topic

[Gravenimage]

He had to know, because it couldn't have been more obvious what they were going for in Shippuden before the Kage Summit. It's basically the story of how Sakura fell in love with Naruto. Then it's like "No, she can't have fallen for him, because she loves Sasuke, even though there has been zero emphasis put on that since part 1" Plus he based Sakura on his own wife.

 

This is basically the most kittened up story ever. The fact that people, including myself, even thought Hinata had a chance, is just ridiculous. And that it actually happened is even more absurd.

 

Totally. Just how many interactions did Naruto and Hinata had throughout the whole manga? 

 

-During the chunin exams before Naruto's fight with Neji.

-When part 2 team 8 was first introduced after the rescue Gaara arc (she fainted obviously  ). 

-The 4 ninja war after Neji died.

 

I think that's it, only three times. Now how many interactions did Naruto and Sakura had throughout the whole manga? You guys are bringing analysis on all NS scenes so we should know exactly. 

[VanitasDS76491]

Totally. Just how many interactions did Naruto and Hinata had throughout the whole manga? 
 
-During the chunin exams before Naruto's fight with Neji.
-When part 2 team 8 was first introduced after the rescue Gaara arc (she fainted obviously  ). 
-The 4 ninja war after Neji died.
 
I think that's it, only three times. Now how many interactions did Naruto and Sakura had throughout the whole manga? You guys are bringing analysis on all NS scenes so we should know exactly.

Forgot the pain arc to if you can count that since that one is pointless since her going to save him meant nothing since pain needed him alive.

[James S Cassidy]

 

I've been wondering, do you think Yahagi knew Kishimoto wanted NS to be canon? I mean has Kishi actually told him he wanted NS?

Yes and no. Maybe not Sakura specifically, but he did say that especially in Shonen you need a rival and what better way to have a rival then also a rival in love. Not that he was trying to get the girl because of that rivalry, but the fact that he loved a girl who was in love with his rival to show competition and humanity between them.

In alot of these stories, especially shonen, they usually showcase how the loser guy is trying to be like the popular guy in almost everything. Sometimes that even shows how he loves a girl, but then finds out that girl loves the popular guy. It is a complicated explanation, but to focus on the fact he is popular.

The problem was he never made the girl realize that she only loved him because he was popular and not because of who he really was. Usually the loser guy gets the girl because it is what he wanted and not because "it is a way to beat his rival." Perhaps Kishimoto took the advice too literally. Look at Shojo love examples where the loser guy tries to win the girl over, only to fail to the popular guy, and eventually says "I just want her to be happy." She ends up being with the loser guy because he truly loves her and not just because of a competition.

[Phantom_999]

And that is what truly matters in this story or any other story involving love and relationships. Do both parties love each other for who the other is and accept their flaws and the like? That is what a real relationship is about. Being attracted to someone just because they are “sex on legs” does not constitute a healthy and meaningful relationship, and even if that leads to a marriage it fails in the long run if it does not amount to anything more tha attraction to a “hot” person. Naruto and Hinata’s relationship is just as bad as it is not an equal relationship between spouses but it essentially is a wife playing mother for a man child of a husband and not keeping him in line. Those relationships don’t work out either and we see those type of marriage failiures a lot in both real life and in fiction.

Edited by Phantom_999, 04 March 2018 - 04:09 PM.

[RulesofNature]

And that is what truly matters in this story of any other story involving love and relationships. Do both parties love each other for who the other is and accept their flaws and the like? That is what a real relationship is about. Being attracted to someone just because they are “sex on legs” does not constitute a healthy and meaningful relationship, and even if that leads to a marriage it fails in the long run if it does not amount to anything more tha attraction to a “hot” person. Naruto and Hinata’s relationship is just as bad as it is not an equal relationship between spouses but it essentially is a wife playing mother for a man child of a husband and not keeping him in line. Those relationships don’t work out either and we see those type of marriage failiures a lot in both real life and in fiction.

 

Dude, this was a story where the protagonist was motivated through the relationships he developed only for it to end with him telling his son to endure his loneliness. That's something that's so very, very wrong I'm surprised it even went to print as it blatantly contradicts the themes of the story.

[Phantom_999]

Oh yeah I know, I have just been rambling on and on about those blatant theme contradictions and contradictions of the story for a long while now that I just want to focus on how the so-called "canon ships" don't work out realistically.

[jak123]

5. Hands down 5. 

 

Sakura ending up with Sasuke destroys all her development.

[Gravenimage]

5. Hands down 5. 

 

Sakura ending up with Sasuke destroys all her development.

 

Not just destroys her character development but it also shows Kishimoto's disrespect for her character. Or better yet how he shows his disrespect for all female characters. That's why to me he's not just an incompetent writer but also a sexist pig. Let's turn all the women in the manga to stay at home cleaning ending their ninja career. Great job Kishi. It's like he's spitting in all of their faces. Like I said before a mangaka that doesn't respect the characters in his story is NO mangaka at all.  

Edited by Gravenimage, 19 January 2018 - 11:29 PM.

[jak123]

 

Not just destroys her character development but it also shows Kishimoto's disrespect for her character. Or better yet how he shows his disrespect for all female characters. That's why to me he's not just an incompetent writer but also a sexist pig. Let's turn all the women in the manga to stay at home cleaning ending their ninja career. Great job Kishi. It's like he's spitting in all of their faces. Like I said before a mangaka that doesn't respect the characters in his story is NO mangaka at all.  

I wouldn't go as far as to call him sexist. I just think he's a bad writer. The development between Naruto and Sakura happened quite often and was very good. It was clear and cut as well. She was clearly developing feelings for him especially in the second half. It would have showed how she matured and changed by falling in love with someone who was there for her and actually showed that he cared about her. I don't remember one instance where Sasuke actually showed any sort of caring for Sakura. Hell, even in that crappy Boruto movie, they are shown together once, and don't ever actually interact. 

[RulesofNature]

I think the thing is Naruto ends up championing traditional Japanese values like group harmony, male leadership, and submissive women. You can find a lot of articles talking about these sorts of things, from the use of peer pressure to force people to conform to women enduring sexual harassment as to not make their company look bad (it's called not disturbing the wa of the workplace). I've even heard teachers who go over there as part of JET where their handbooks try downplay some of these issues, telling them to embrace the Japanese way of handling the problem rather than their own culture's (I.e. what Westerners would see as sexual harassment is done in innocent jest. It's a cultural misunderstanding). In 2014, Japan was criticized internationally after a female lawmaker was heckled with comments like Why don’t you get married?”, eventually breaking down into tears, by other lawmakers in the general assembly.

 

http://breathingmean...problem-sexism/

 

Naruto is a product of Japanese culture and reflected it's attitudes. Women should be in the home taking care of kids, submissive to their male counterparts (women in the workplace are expected to pour tea for their male equals or answer phone calls for them). It wasn't what a lot of people thought it was, and when the ending rolled around it flew in the face of a lot of Western sensibilities. It was a story for the youth of Japan, not a means for American values to be brought to Japan.

 

Has the Japanese ever accused Kishi of being sexist? Because the complaints I've heard from them revolve more around how The Last made NaruHina awful people.

Edited by RulesofNature, 20 January 2018 - 06:16 AM.

[Kasimir38]

Naruto never really loved Sakura.... He only loved Sasuke or else he wouldn't have let SasuSaku happen...

Sorry but it is true... If he was that guy who would have stepped back for her sake, he would not have done it the moment Sasuke came back. Like, let's assume Sakura didn't love him, then he would have accepted it and if she found some nice person, he would have wished her luck. But what he do? He, like, totally gave his blessing for her to be with the guy that tried to kill her several times and almost succeded, doesn't cares about her, never cared about her, made her cry very often and so on...

 

In other shonen mangas, the good guy aka Naruto wouldn't have let her cry, he would have taken her by the hand and dragged away from that emotional abusive person. Naruto didn't. He rejected her, made strange promises... I really think he loved Sasuke more.

[James S Cassidy]

Naruto never really loved Sakura.... He only loved Sasuke or else he wouldn't have let SasuSaku happen...

Sorry but it is true... If he was that guy who would have stepped back for her sake, he would not have done it the moment Sasuke came back. Like, let's assume Sakura didn't love him, then he would have accepted it and if she found some nice person, he would have wished her luck. But what he do? He, like, totally gave his blessing for her to be with the guy that tried to kill her several times and almost succeded, doesn't cares about her, never cared about her, made her cry very often and so on...

 

In other shonen mangas, the good guy aka Naruto wouldn't have let her cry, he would have taken her by the hand and dragged away from that emotional abusive person. Naruto didn't. He rejected her, made strange promises... I really think he loved Sasuke more.

"Naruto never really loved Sakura..."
Sasuke never really loved Sakura either....

"Naruto always loved Hinata"
Is that why he ignored her for 5 years?

[Kasimir38]

In that sense, Sakura also never loved Naruto or else she wouldn't have let NaruHina happen   

[FireFox]

So going by that apart from the obvious we get to the conclusion that no one loves anyone!!!  What a twist its the best romance ever written!!!  .  

[DrK]

It occurs to me that I haven't done one of these in awhile. I'll try to do one soon. I still need to talk about the POAL, meeting Minato and the bench scene. It really does get even more unbelievable.

[jak123]

It occurs to me that I haven't done one of these in awhile. I'll try to do one soon. I still need to talk about the POAL, meeting Minato and the bench scene. It really does get even more unbelievable.

Isn't the bench scene the fondest memory that Sakura has of Sasuke, but in reality it was Naruto in disguise?

[winter-serenade]

Isn't the bench scene the fondest memory that Sakura has of Sasuke, but in reality it was Naruto in disguise?

This.

 

I think that the bench scene gave Sakura the wrong idea about Sasuke. Of course, I have my doubts because it's never mentioned again (except for Naruto's flashbacks during the fake confession), but I think Naruto ironically ruined his chances with Sakura with a false image of Sasuke that he created. It's debatable, but this theory has been on my mind for a while.

[jak123]

This.

 

I think that the bench scene gave Sakura the wrong idea about Sasuke. Of course, I have my doubts because it's never mentioned again (except for Naruto's flashbacks during the fake confession), but I think Naruto ironically ruined his chances with Sakura with a false image of Sasuke that he created. It's debatable, but this theory has been on my mind for a while.

I think it was just Kishimoto's terrible writing. Doesn't Sasuke poke her like Naruto did at the end?  It still doesn't make sense though. If that is what made her pick Sasuke over all the development that she and Naruto went through together, then I have an even lower opinion of the series.

[Phantom_999]

Naruto never really loved Sakura.... He only loved Sasuke or else he wouldn't have let SasuSaku happen...

Sorry but it is true... If he was that guy who would have stepped back for her sake, he would not have done it the moment Sasuke came back. Like, let's assume Sakura didn't love him, then he would have accepted it and if she found some nice person, he would have wished her luck. But what he do? He, like, totally gave his blessing for her to be with the guy that tried to kill her several times and almost succeded, doesn't cares about her, never cared about her, made her cry very often and so on...

 

In other shonen mangas, the good guy aka Naruto wouldn't have let her cry, he would have taken her by the hand and dragged away from that emotional abusive person. Naruto didn't. He rejected her, made strange promises... I really think he loved Sasuke more.

 

Mm I would like to think that is NOT him not loving Sakura. that is HIM DELUDING himself that his team seven is one big happy family with all of Sasuke's Part II transgressions removed. this is consistently portrayed throughout the series. Remember all the times Naruto keeps remembering their group photo? he is only fixated in that intsance of his life when it comes to Sasuke and nothing else matters to him. this particular form of escapism and avoidance of reality is what is causing him to madness mantra himself into thinking Sakura always loved Sasuke and always will and that Team seven was always a bundle of sunshinne and rainbows and were in total sync for everything. Notice how when Guy and Gaara particularly shattered his dream of Team seven and his wimpy arse fell in to hyperventilation? Yeah I think that the examples speak for themselves

Edited by Phantom_999, 04 March 2018 - 04:11 PM.

[jak123]

 

Mm I would like to think that is NOT him not loving Sakura. that is HIM DELUDING himself that his team seven is one big happy family with all of Sasuke's Part II transgressions removed. this is consistently portrayed throughout the series. Remember all the times Naruto keeps remembering their group photo? he is only ifxated in that insance of his life when it comes to Sasuke and nothing else matters to him. this particular form of escapism and avoidance of reality is what is causing him to madness mantra himself into thinking Sakura always loved Sasuke and always will and that Team seven was always a bundle of sunshinne and rainbows and were in total sync for everything. Notice how when Guy and Gaara particularly shattered his dream of Team seven and his wimpy arse fill in to hyperventilation? Yeah I think that the examples speak for themselves

But remember, his fixation was also because he wanted to make Sakura smile again and bringing back Team 7 was the best way to do that. Naruto went above and beyond for Sakura.