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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#5261 Dkey

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:24 AM

dont know what kishi thought of it but it seems the mangaka was all dont worry kishi i know where sakura isnt flat.

#5262 T XD

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:42 PM

Kishi: Ah! My little girl! I tried to avoid her showing her exposing some of her feat with shorts, but that pervert really did it. My wife is going to kill me.

But seriously, he's a hentai mangaka? Wow, no wonder people was requesting other heroine(s) and...sigh..."heroine"...to be drawn. Look at this way, Kishi. She still have her gloves and Kunai. I think Naruto might be regretting be in front cover, not in that poster. XD

I was wondering if Kishi would be upset cause he always didn't show that much of Sakura and now this hentai mangaka did show from her a lot. Maybe he got the permission from Kishi ? XD



#5263 Canadian_DJ

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:59 PM

I've said this before elsewhere, but I believe Sakura's slow progressions at least physically were on purpose.  I've heard many on different sites say that she still isn't as strong as Naruto and Sakura, and unlike them hasn't surpassed the Sannin that trained her.  I've heard people call her Tsunade 2.0.  In my opinion, Kishimoto has been waiting for something to happen, or for the story to reach a certain point, because as many have said NS and Sakura's development has more to come.  Sakura hasn't surpassed Tsunade yet, and she still doesn't recognize herself as a full-fledged Shinobi (She still wears her forehead protector on her head).  Kishimoto hasn't given her any panels focusing on training since now, because the story hasn't reached a certain point.  He's been waiting for a certain event or for her to make contact with a certain character.  That's why he's waited so long.  It'll be awhile to see if I'm right, but right now, that's what I truly believe.
 
True, he could have done more with Hinata.  However, I believe the reason has to do with time constraints, and issues fitting her in more in the plot. 
 

 
Wow, you can't tell this apart from images from the manga.  Excellent work, LadyGT.
 

 
Sorry to defer the conversation of this thread to Bleach again, but where'd you get the fact Orihime is the heroine and not Rukia.  What source?
 

 
Oh, I saw that picture!  LadyGT did that one too?  As for moments, I'm more looking forward to a response from Sakura to Minato when he said "Take care of my son".  In chapter 631, she didn't respond to it.  I'm hoping later after Sakura comes to terms with her feelings, and Minato is leaving, she says "Leave Naruto to me." or something like that.


Because in the WSJ heroines posters they've had including the valentines day one with the heroes and heroines and with the heroines in the other valentines day cover holding chocolate and another one with heroines in summer suits.

Sakura and minato are very much alike. Well, sakuravis the closest fenale to be compared to minato. :D
Actually a bit of funny triva for you Lady GT, this is more NaruSaku stuff that doesn't really matter in the long run but is still true:
 
Just as Naruto is like both his parents and Sakura was confirmed to be like Kushina, there are also traits Sakura has with Minato:
-both are normal people not from any type of clan
-both are very smart
-both considered prodigies in their respective talents, Minato for his speed and space-time techniques and Sakura for her chakra control and medical expertise.
-both studied under a sannin.
 
And one more, concerning the parents of Naruto and Sakura:
-Both Naruto and Sakura have parents whose names start with an M and K
-Both Naruto and Sakura have a blond and red (color family of red) haired parent. Minato and Meubeki are blond, Kushina and Kizashi are close in red and pink
-Both these traits belong to the opposite gendered parent of both Naruto and Sakura's parents, ex Minato is male, name begins with M, has blond hair opposite Meubeki who has these traits but is female. Same conditions for Kushina and Kizashi.
 
Isn't it funny? Stuff like this does not matter in the long run or help the pairing but its still true!

^ thank you very much guys! I'm really glad you liked it! :D
I was thinking about RTN lately, and I find it funny how Kishimoto made both Minato and Kushina tease and comment about Sakura in the movie, it was already an hint of their "girlfriend" approval :D
I'm just glad Kishimoto confirmed it again in chapter 631 since people keep saying RTN is not Canon.
I have a question! ( still RTN themed)
Am I the only one who never imagined for one of Sakura's parent to be blonde? I was really surprised when I saw Mebuki and Kizashi for the first time, I didn't expect Sakura's mother to be blonde, I always thought she would be the one with pink hair ahah :P I'm really happy with their design, once again Kishi surprised us all!


Yeah I didnt see that coming with sakuras larents. But its cool.

Sakuras hair is light pink narutos hair is blond. Minatos hair is blonde kushinas hair is red. Mebukis hair is blonde kizashis hair is dsrk pink (almost red). See whst I did there? Narusaku sre pink and blonde. Minakushi red and blonde. Kizamebu blonde and hot pink. They're colors are different shades of blonde and red.

Sakura got her hair color from her dad and her eye color from her dad but her skin color from her mom. Naruto got his hair color from his dad and eye color from his dad and skin color as well.

Naruto and sakuras parents nsmes start with the same letters.
Kizashi dark pink
Kushina red
Minato blonde
Mebuki blonde

Naruto and sakura arent the same with K and M.

13080302030649702.gif~                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ナル~サク 4/3 The day he fell in love with her ♥ 豪傑 そて 婦 hero, great man and heroine, brave woman°°°★Official Top Ten overall NARUTO characters: 1. Kakashi 2.Naruto 3.Sasuke 4.Iruka 5.Shikamaru 6.Gaara 7.Sakura 8.Neji 9.Itachi 10.Lee★°°° <p>Best ofナル~サク


#5264 Inferno180

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

One thing that still just bugs me to a degree is how narutopedia handles how anything relationship wise with naruto and sakura, in the sections of what that character did in the plot, they always leave out Sakura's with naruto or try to make It look negative. Heck even then, in minatos personality section they say how tsunade says naruto took his personality after Kushina. They don't mention how jiriaya sees him more like minato or how tsunade sees naruto like minato. Heck they don't make any connection of minato thinking of Kushina under kushinas page even. But this is the deal, any little sakura stuff, any small ns stuff they try to insert more anti stuff into it as little as they can I mean the page with minatos personality, do we really need the Kushina stuff with naruto? It's a page about minato not narutos personality. That should only be on narutos page. Heck on Sakura's page they don't even mention how sai told naruto she was doing and how she did it as a way to make amends for the promise during the land of iron. They only say she was lying and sai proved it too be true and later confirmed to still love Sasuke, that's it no mention on the real reason. I just don't get it, why all the hinata plaster? Why keep bumping her up when there's not much in the manga to show? Has the hinata ego gotten too big? Even on the manga websites the pages with other pictures before the chapter they always have to have more hinata in there, why? It's become annoying in a way to need to see her so much. Hinata is decent but even with a small ns moment, it's like 10000 hinata images need to flood stuff so we cannot see narusaku, it's even happened on google or bing from time to time when I just search for fan art on narusaku. I just hope this overinflated hinata ego will die down soon, I mean 631 is the closest to kushinas foreshadow so far and sakura does care about naruto and naruto practically confirmed he still loves sakura.

All I can say though is if we get more moments to be the point in which ns becomes canon, as there are many events which can lead to it now more than ever, something tells me the haters are going to protest, rant, drop the manga, argue why nh should have happened, or then write fanfiction about naruto and sakura being unhappy and going to nh and SS because that's what they wanted. I feel there will be a surge in nh and SS fanfiction if we hit a point in ns going canon.

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#5265 Psychox

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:06 PM

One thing that still just bugs me to a degree is how narutopedia handles how anything relationship wise with naruto and sakura, in the sections of what that character did in the plot, they always leave out Sakura's with naruto or try to make It look negative. Heck even then, in minatos personality section they say how tsunade says naruto took his personality after Kushina. They don't mention how jiriaya sees him more like minato or how tsunade sees naruto like minato. Heck they don't make any connection of minato thinking of Kushina under kushinas page even. But this is the deal, any little sakura stuff, any small ns stuff they try to insert more anti stuff into it as little as they can I mean the page with minatos personality, do we really need the Kushina stuff with naruto? It's a page about minato not narutos personality. That should only be on narutos page. Heck on Sakura's page they don't even mention how sai told naruto she was doing and how she did it as a way to make amends for the promise during the land of iron. They only say she was lying and sai proved it too be true and later confirmed to still love Sasuke, that's it no mention on the real reason. I just don't get it, why all the hinata plaster? Why keep bumping her up when there's not much in the manga to show? Has the hinata ego gotten too big? Even on the manga websites the pages with other pictures before the chapter they always have to have more hinata in there, why? It's become annoying in a way to need to see her so much. Hinata is decent but even with a small ns moment, it's like 10000 hinata images need to flood stuff so we cannot see narusaku, it's even happened on google or bing from time to time when I just search for fan art on narusaku. I just hope this overinflated hinata ego will die down soon, I mean 631 is the closest to kushinas foreshadow so far and sakura does care about naruto and naruto practically confirmed he still loves sakura.

All I can say though is if we get more moments to be the point in which ns becomes canon, as there are many events which can lead to it now more than ever, something tells me the haters are going to protest, rant, drop the manga, argue why nh should have happened, or then write fanfiction about naruto and sakura being unhappy and going to nh and SS because that's what they wanted. I feel there will be a surge in nh and SS fanfiction if we hit a point in ns going canon.

 

I know its annoying...

Why is that site run by overly biased nh fans? I mean can we do something about it? Take charge? Call to arms?

 

To ARMS TO ARMS!

lol sry :sweat:

 

Lately i've been seeing stuff like NS=KushiKushi and its gross it will never happen, Hinata=Minato because of the I-I'm sorry sentence of Minato .. Just because he was on edge and worried it does not mean that he is like hinata... Jesus..

Even this chapter Naruto was paralleled to Jiraiya and his dad by Tobirama for gods sake .. How dare they twist that ,I'm fed up with them ,seriously everywhere i go i see this ... :twitch: :down: :sick:

 

Why downplay Naruto and Sakura's relationship? Why degrade the moments? Because the have little (none) of their own? For cry and out loud!

The Manga is called Naruto Shippuuden not Hinata..... They have to deal with it ... How much they hate Sakura , seriously?

 

Disrespecting ,denial , ignorance .. Those are not worthy to call themselfs Naruto fans!

 

Haters gonna hate.. Let them drop the manga ,who cares? nh? What does that pairing have that ns doesn't? That's right , nothing . It pales in comparison , why should it happen , because some  fans want to? The story doesn't matter? Naruto? Who is he? What about his feelings? Just pin Hinata to him and Sakura to Sasuke and lets have a (sad) happy ending...

He,Sakura, Sasuke are the main pro/(anti)taganists . They are afraid that's why they are at it .. It makes me sick to be honest.. :confused: -_- :glare: :sweatdrop:

 

Sakura- Main Heroine

Hinata - Secondary side character. period.

 

It will never change , no matter how much they want to.

 

I've been sensing their anger and frustration with each and every post against us .. But whey have to...

 

46248-Dr-cox-Scrubs-deal-with-it-gif-Jky


Edited by Psychox, 07 August 2013 - 07:13 PM.

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#5266 sushi.

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:12 PM

Apparently Sai assumed Naruto loves Sakura, but what Narutopedia forget to write is that he confirmed this seconds later.

And that Sakura hit Naruto for lying about being in a relationship. :confused:

 

Don't even bother with that website when it comes to shipping, the Narutocouple wikia is dedicated to that and very objective.

Lately i've been seeing stuff like NS=KushiKushi and its gross it will never happen, Hinata=Minato because of the I-I'm sorry sentence of Minato .. Just because he was on edge and worried it does not mean that he is like hinata... Jesus..

Minato is like Hinata because they're both calm. But..but just because she isn't a hotheaded wildchild like Naruto is/was doesn't mean she's calm. :pinch:

 

Kushina is also like Hinata because they both love Naruto equally. But..pretty that argument doesn't work because NS fans believe Sakura loves Naruto too. :)

 

I don't know how common these beliefs are, but I've heard it several times.


Edited by sushi., 07 August 2013 - 09:14 PM.

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#5267 deviouslyChaotic

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

One thing that still just bugs me to a degree is how narutopedia handles how anything relationship wise with naruto and sakura, in the sections of what that character did in the plot, they always leave out Sakura's with naruto or try to make It look negative. Heck even then, in minatos personality section they say how tsunade says naruto took his personality after Kushina. They don't mention how jiriaya sees him more like minato or how tsunade sees naruto like minato. Heck they don't make any connection of minato thinking of Kushina under kushinas page even. But this is the deal, any little sakura stuff, any small ns stuff they try to insert more anti stuff into it as little as they can I mean the page with minatos personality, do we really need the Kushina stuff with naruto? It's a page about minato not narutos personality. That should only be on narutos page. Heck on Sakura's page they don't even mention how sai told naruto she was doing and how she did it as a way to make amends for the promise during the land of iron. They only say she was lying and sai proved it too be true and later confirmed to still love Sasuke, that's it no mention on the real reason. I just don't get it, why all the hinata plaster? Why keep bumping her up when there's not much in the manga to show? Has the hinata ego gotten too big? Even on the manga websites the pages with other pictures before the chapter they always have to have more hinata in there, why? It's become annoying in a way to need to see her so much. Hinata is decent but even with a small ns moment, it's like 10000 hinata images need to flood stuff so we cannot see narusaku, it's even happened on google or bing from time to time when I just search for fan art on narusaku. I just hope this overinflated hinata ego will die down soon, I mean 631 is the closest to kushinas foreshadow so far and sakura does care about naruto and naruto practically confirmed he still loves sakura.

All I can say though is if we get more moments to be the point in which ns becomes canon, as there are many events which can lead to it now more than ever, something tells me the haters are going to protest, rant, drop the manga, argue why nh should have happened, or then write fanfiction about naruto and sakura being unhappy and going to nh and SS because that's what they wanted. I feel there will be a surge in nh and SS fanfiction if we hit a point in ns going canon.

Bolded. I really hope that this does not turn out to be the case, however I fear that such reactions are inevitable. Dropping a manga just because a particular pairing that you like turns out not to be canon is almost like throwing a tantrum. Whatever happened to accepting things for what they are and being a good sport? Sadly, people most certainly will act like bitter sore losers who will then proceed to degrade Kishi and his entire series for making NS canon. Some may even call it an asspull when in reality, the development and subtle hints have been in their faces all this time--they just failed to take off their shipping goggles to realize it.

 

Whatever. There's no point in worrying about other's reactions at this point and time. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. 


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#5268 Inferno180

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:38 PM

At this point I wonder how angry and aflame the Internet would be on the day ns goes canon. It would not be pretty. Possibly darker than the day we saw jiriaya die. All the ns stuff is laid out,it's there for a reason if people want to ignore it, that's fine but the Kushina stuff ended the moment minato compared sakura to her. Even if it was a joke until we see hinata being compared to Kushina, sakura is the most likely to fill in that girlfriend naruto wants, heck the only girl like Kushina so far so yeah sakura has an important lead here. Just wondering how people would react if naruto declares he still likes sakura. I feel if the day ns comes I would resist giving them an explanation because we told them our views and evidence, they disregard them then oh well not going to explain it to those confused should the day come when ns is canon.

Edited by Inferno180, 07 August 2013 - 09:41 PM.


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#5269 sushi.

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

About 631;

The joke was from the author himself, not from the characters. Father and son have the same taste in women apparently. :P

 

From the characters, it was only comic relief. There is a difference between that and a joke.

 

The comic relief was that Sakura hit him for wasting his energy talking.

 

What should be taking seriously is Naruto's feelings - which no one should joke about, and that is also why NS fans treasure this moment. His feelings have never been questioned unlike Sakura's, in fact his feelings have been solid all the time and never moved an inch.


Edited by sushi., 07 August 2013 - 09:56 PM.

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#5270 Inferno180

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:15 PM

About 631;

The joke was from the author himself, not from the characters. Father and son have the same taste in women apparently. :P

 

From the characters, it was only comic relief. There is a difference between that and a joke.

 

The comic relief was that Sakura hit him for wasting his energy talking.

 

What should be taking seriously is Naruto's feelings - which no one should joke about, and that is also why NS fans treasure this moment. His feelings have never been questioned unlike Sakura's, in fact his feelings have been solid all the time and never moved an inch.

 

Thats exactly the whole ordeal of the relationship for Naruto and Sakura, it only improved as the story went on:

 

Start of the story: Sasuke is the apple of Sakura's eye, or eye candy, Naruto is nothing but a pile of trash. Yet this improves over so many events in the story:

 

1. Sasuke tells her she is annoying and cannot understand Naruto, Sasuke speaking because he knows how it is to be alone at least. Sakura resolves to be nicer towards Naruto

 

2. Sakura viewed naruto as ok while still clinging to Sasuke. Yet she helped Naruto with minor stuff such as the tree climbing exercise and seeing him do more than she could.

 

3. Sakura was ready to give up on the chunin exams for Naruto, despite the last question being a trick to make sure shinobi could see through deception, she didn't want his one thing of motivation to be struck away for good.

 

4. Naruto defended her and Sasuke from Orochimaru when Sasuke was scared, Sakura started to see Sasuke had his flaws and Naruto was not some major loser. By the time he faces Kiba, Sakura knows he is capable of more than he had shown. After facing Neji, She wanted to do more.

 

5. This is probably where the real development started, Sasuke tells Sakura she was saved by Naruto from Gaara. Sakura gains a new apparition for him viewing him as a better friend.

 

6. The promise of a lifetime and the resolve to get stronger, this was the high mark of their relation in part 1, she came to trust and be thankful to him, knowing she had been wrong in her intial views and also been inspired by naruto to become better herself.

 

7. The reunion, that friendship stuck on them despite the 2 year separation.

 

8. Discovering the 9 tails, ataskuti, and that Jinchurki die if a tailed beast is extracted, this small string of events made her realize Naruto had burdens and hunters that were beyond what she initially thought. This gave her become protective of him.

 

9. The 4 tails event, she saw firsthand what the power in Naruto could cause to him, she was worried about Naruto, tried to snap him out of the mode. Yet her strongest aspect of this scene was that fact that she didn't think any differently of Naruto after all this, she came to be more protective and wanted to help him in some greater way than before. She never thought any less of Naruto after this.

 

10. She came to support his wind training, even if it was minor she just wanted to help.

 

11. The hug after pain was beaten, she was truly thankful for him saving the village. Plus as a tsundere its common in events like this, it took saving the village to make Sakura hug him, generally that stuff comes after a big event.

 

12. Discovering Naruto loved her and she caused him pain, this made her resolve to try and release him from the promise, accept his hate, get him back in the village to safety, she was desperate and confused but only wanted Naruto's wellbeing to be good, she only wanted him to be happy.

 

13. Gained faith in Naruto after the reunion with Sasuke, though she was sad at the aspect of Naruto and Sasuke dying, she was faithful in that Naruto could give them a happy ending. Heck she smiled after all those events.

 

14. 573 made it clear, she was keen on helping Naruto to the end, that everyone would support each other.

 

15. 630, she understood Naruto the most, even from her own mistakes in the land of iron, she told everyone not to depend on Naruto, that they should do whats in their power for each other and him, as she healed him. It also took her to make everyone realize how Naruto considered them all comrades, not just allied ninja. Heck 631 she advocated to Naruto to fight, not Sasuke.

 

If anything just as Naruto's interest in Sakura never wavered, if any relation improved the best in the manga, it was definitely Sakura to Naruto. So what do we expect the ending to this development on her end to be? Just friendship or possibly the opposite? Loving Naruto in the end? To many that sounds like a longshot. But its true, Sakura has gone from hating Naruto to being best friends with him. She can possibly be something more with him.



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#5271 Nostradamus

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:49 PM

Guys and girls of course, I'm still alive and I've posted my newest rant under Icha Icha Narusaku. It's called "My rant 2.0". Hope you enjoy it.


Edited by Nostradamus, 07 August 2013 - 10:50 PM.

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#5272 Darkness

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 02:40 AM

I)I mean 631 is the closest to kushinas foreshadow so far and sakura does care about naruto and naruto practically confirmed he still loves sakura.

II)All I can say though is if we get more moments to be the point in which ns becomes canon, as there are many events which can lead to it now more than ever, something tells me the haters are going to protest, rant, drop the manga, argue why nh should have happened, or then write fanfiction about naruto and sakura being unhappy and going to nh and SS because that's what they wanted. I feel there will be a surge in nh and SS fanfiction if we hit a point in ns going canon.

 

I) In reality Naruto has never given any sign that he is getting over Sakura, quite the opposite actually. 631 just confirmed what is obvious... really.

 

II) This is completely inevitable by now. There's so many convict hardcore fans out there, so many people who fiercely deny the most obvious aspects chapter after chapter and overthink every little panel creating absurd and irrational theories just to feed their own insanity.... that cursing Kishimoto, dropping the manga and raging through the forums are all best case scenarios. 


Edited by Darkness, 08 August 2013 - 02:49 AM.

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#5273 Superman333

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 02:48 AM

i laugh so hard at the NaruHina fans that constantly say Hinata deserve Naruto because she loved him from the beginning and she acknowledged him . Well if thats the case they must forget about the fact that all through part 1 Sakura was silently acknowledging Naruto and admiring him . Its happen recently in part 2 . Sakura don't even trust Sasuke , Sasusaku is A DONE DEAL LOLS . NaruHina been over . NaruSaku will happen because my boy Naruto ain't even much confess o Sakura and I see Sakura returning his feelings 10 fold . 


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#5274 Superman333

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 02:52 AM

 

I) In reality Naruto has never given any sign that he is getting over Sakura, quite the opposite actually. 631 just confirmed what is obvious... really.

 

II) This is completely inevitable by now. There's so many convict hardcore fans out there, so many people who fiercely deny the most obvious aspects chapter after chapter and overthink every little panel creating absurd and irrational theories just to feed their own insanity.... that cursing Kishimoto, dropping the manga and raging through the forums are all best case scenarios. 

This . 


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#5275 soraandven

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 02:53 AM

heh guys get this nh fans are trying to compare obito insulting minato to neji insulting hinata how desperate can they get 


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#5276 Superman333

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:02 AM

heh guys get this nh fans are trying to compare obito insulting minato to neji insulting hinata how desperate can they get 

seriously .? lols thats lower than the low . 


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#5277 soraandven

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:04 AM

seriously .? lols thats lower than the low . 

check tumblr could they be anymore idiotic sigh...


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Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:10 AM

check tumblr could they be anymore idiotic sigh...

I mean if they want to sink that low , then how are we the biased .? When they seem to be trying to parallel this situation , but can't accept the fact that the guy who sleeps with Naruto's mom compares Sakura to his wife .? 


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Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:18 AM

At this point I wonder how angry and aflame the Internet would be on the day ns goes canon. It would not be pretty. Possibly darker than the day we saw jiriaya die. All the ns stuff is laid out,it's there for a reason if people want to ignore it, that's fine but the Kushina stuff ended the moment minato compared sakura to her. Even if it was a joke until we see hinata being compared to Kushina, sakura is the most likely to fill in that girlfriend naruto wants, heck the only girl like Kushina so far so yeah sakura has an important lead here. Just wondering how people would react if naruto declares he still likes sakura. I feel if the day ns comes I would resist giving them an explanation because we told them our views and evidence, they disregard them then oh well not going to explain it to those confused should the day come when ns is canon.

I mean it was obvious also when Jairaya himself laid out everything he failed at , and isn't Naruto about the new generation passing the old generation . Naruto will get Sakura , SS and NH don't want to accept the fact that NaruSaku is far from onesided . They try to say Naruto was joking about that in chapter 631 , and 632 confirmed he was joking . In my opinion Kishi was just showing us "Like Father , Like Son " . Thats why Minato also smiled . Its a fact Naruto still loves Sakura , chapter 631 , confirmed it in so many ways . 


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#5280 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:24 AM

While I don't want to bash here, yeah, I saw that and it was....well the less said, the better.

 

Anyway, people really thinks that he dropped the feeling because many reasons, and one of them is not responding to Kushina's part of wish, which is find that love one. To be honest, after 631, I believe it was left out on purpose because it would be odd for Naruto to say, "Hey, I got a girl who is like you." It's best for the parent (Minato) to approve this and luckily, we have. That said I do believe Minato is not done with Naruto and Sakura, so expect last wishes and such. It's only going to get worse since Obito is being dealt with. I am starting to feel that we got this in the bag, but let's not get cocky. Karma.






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