749 replies to this topic

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Bolded: Ah, forgot to mention that as well. I did mention that instance in the Debate thread, though. Otherwise, I agree with everything else. As for the 3rd, I think it will go like this. The Bijuus provide the heavy firepower, the Alliance act as support for the Bijuus. For the K-11, specifically, Shikamaru will get the lions' share of the spotlight since he's their strategist now.

Sakura may do what red suggested, but we'll see.

@Phenix: By putting her on a pedestal, I mean we glorify Sakura's moments while as Hinata's moments are not being given the credit it deserves. Not just in a friendship sense, but in a romantic sense. Y'know how NH fans like to dismiss Sakura?? well, we're doing the same here. They don't give Sakura the slack she deserves, we don't give Hinata the slack she deserves. The moment where she was able to influence the main character and gave him character development are dismissed so easily. Then we go all "yay!! Sakura worries about Naruto!!" I sometimes think we've really switched roles with NH fans.

As for whether it builds up to something down the road, I consider it as a pretty good possibility. My bottom line is that both pairings have equal chances of happening. It all depends on Kishi whether he'll actually develop NH from now on.

I certainly disagree with this, Naruto didnt got any kind of character development actually he's just doing what Obito is saying all the time, he doesnt trust his friends and doesnt accept to rely on them the reason is that he was going to lose the war because he was trying so hard ot protect his friends, he's the same Naruto that got scolded by Itachi when he said he has to rely on his friends.

[PhenixElite]

Bolded: Ah, forgot to mention that as well. I did mention that instance in the Debate thread, though. Otherwise, I agree with everything else. As for the 3rd, I think it will go like this. The Bijuus provide the heavy firepower, the Alliance act as support for the Bijuus. For the K-11, specifically, Shikamaru will get the lions' share of the spotlight since he's their strategist now.

Sakura may do what red suggested, but we'll see.

@Phenix: By putting her on a pedestal, I mean we glorify Sakura's moments while as Hinata's moments are not being given the credit it deserves. Not just in a friendship sense, but in a romantic sense. Y'know how NH fans like to dismiss Sakura?? well, we're doing the same here. They don't give Sakura the slack she deserves, we don't give Hinata the slack she deserves. The moment where she was able to influence the main character and gave him character development are dismissed so easily. Then we go all "yay!! Sakura worries about Naruto!!" I sometimes think we've really switched roles with NH fans.

As for whether it builds up to something down the road, I consider it as a pretty good possibility. My bottom line is that both pairings have equal chances of happening. It all depends on Kishi whether he'll actually develop NH from now on.

Well, so the problem you have is that we see hinata moments as her character development instead of romantic pairing development. I think its clear why we take it that way: We have incredible focus on ns the whole manga long and somewhere in the middle there is a small nh moment. So we see this NH moment as her character development since these few moments are just not enough to make it a good pairing in the end. If you take two different parings and one of them just has much much more development and possibility of happening, why should we see the few moments of the other pairing as "pairing hints"?

So both pairing have in some ways the same chances since kishi can do what he wants, but if we look at the story, they arent equal in any kind.

[Codus N]

So both pairing have in some ways the same chances since kishi can do what he wants, but if we look at the story, they arent equal in any kind.

I see it as both, really. Like I said, the moment where she gives emotional support to Naruto is definitely a big moment. And I see it as great for her. But whether that ends up into something more depends on the author, really.

And now I'm at least glad there's one thing we can agree on. Yes, that's precisely correct. Both pairings have equal chances, but I suppose we differ slightly on how the pairing impacts to the story as a whole. As I see it, both NH and NS have an impact to the story equally.

Edited by Codus N, 25 April 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I see it as both, really. Like I said, the moment where she gives emotional support to Naruto is definitely a big moment. And I see it as great for her. But whether that ends up into something more depends on the author, really.

You want to ask why we should see it as pairing hints?? Ok, let's go back to Part I, remember when she talked to him directly for the first time. Alone?? During the Chuunin exams?? isn't that a pairing hint?? next, the gestures she makes towards during the Chuunin exams such as giving him medicine, letting him copy her answers. If we're going to take the little things Sakura does such as this chapter, the healing, and etc. as pairing hints, then why is it so hard to actually accept the "hints" for NH?? if we're going to accept Sakura's moments, then we shouldn't be using double standards here.

We often accuse the double standard of NH fans and yet we can't seem to accept our own double standard.

Depends because you're generalizing like everyone here think the same way, i dont see 528 as a NS moment.
But yep i agree partially with you.

But i do agree with phenixelite also those type of things is not mandatory for Hinata, omg shows that she really worries about Naruto example like giving medicine nad etc.. It's not from Hinata that it has to come it's from Naruto, we already know that she loves Naruto, but with Sakura is different we dont know if she loves Naruto or still loves Sasuke, so when she does those things to Naruto then we can accept as a pairing hint while from Hinata is not because she already loves Naruto it's not Hinata who has to demonstrate those type of things who have to demonstrate those things is Naruto on the NH part while for NS is from Sakura.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 25 April 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Codus N]

Depends because you're generalizing like everyone here think the same way, i dont see 528 as a NS moment.
But yep i agree partially with you.

But i do agree with phenixelite also those type of things is not mandatory for Hinata, omg shows that she really worries about Naruto example like giving medicine nad etc.. It's not from Hinata that it has to come it's from Naruto, we already know that she loves Naruto, but with Sakura is different we dont know if she loves Naruto or still loves Sasuke, so when she does those things to Naruto then we can accept as a pairing hint while from Hinata is not because she already loves Naruto it's not Hinata who has to demonstrate those type of things who have to demonstrate those things is Naruto on the NH part while for NS is from Sakura.

I was editing my post while you replied, but I pretty much agree with what you say. Right now, the ball is in Kishi's hands. Will he have Naruto go towards NH?? or will he stay on the Sakura path?? 615 certainly gave a strong hint of Naruto->Hinata, but it remains to be seen if it is indeed so.

[PhenixElite]

I see it as both, really. Like I said, the moment where she gives emotional support to Naruto is definitely a big moment. And I see it as great for her. But whether that ends up into something more depends on the author, really.

You want to ask why we should see it as pairing hints?? Ok, let's go back to Part I, remember when she talked to him directly for the first time. Alone?? During the Chuunin exams?? isn't that a pairing hint?? next, the gestures she makes towards during the Chuunin exams such as giving him medicine, letting him copy her answers. If we're going to take the little things Sakura does such as this chapter, the healing, and etc. as pairing hints, then why is it so hard to actually accept the "hints" for NH?? if we're going to accept Sakura's moments, then we shouldn't be using double standards here.

We often accuse the double standard of NH fans and yet we can't seem to accept our own double standard.

As said hinata and the pairing NH has simply not enough development to see it as a real end pairing and thats also why people see the few so called NH moments as character development, since its unlikely that this pairing is going to happen. In other words, why should i see hinata moments as paring hints if there is already a different pairing that is more likely to happen. Thats why i see it as character development, because it just doesnt make sense to give small hints for a pairing if the other couple already has much more of them.

Also what is the big difference between Nh an NS? Both of them start onesided, but Ns is the one where the other side is shown to develope feelings throughout the story too. Where is that in NH?

Edit:
About impact to the stroy. I also dont see how a through 90% of the story undeveloped pairing can have the same impact like a 90% through the story developed pairing. We shouldnt forget that Nh goes against the theme of the main protoganist, so if i happens it just ruins characters an parts of the story nothin more.

Edited by PhenixElite, 25 April 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Gravenimage]

Depends because you're generalizing like everyone here think the same way, i dont see 528 as a NS moment.
But yep i agree partially with you.

But i do agree with phenixelite also those type of things is not mandatory for Hinata, omg shows that she really worries about Naruto example like giving medicine nad etc.. It's not from Hinata that it has to come it's from Naruto, we already know that she loves Naruto, but with Sakura is different we dont know if she loves Naruto or still loves Sasuke, so when she does those things to Naruto then we can accept as a pairing hint while from Hinata is not because she already loves Naruto it's not Hinata who has to demonstrate those type of things who have to demonstrate those things is Naruto on the NH part while for NS is from Sakura.

Um...you mean 628 right?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I was editing my post while you replied, but I pretty much agree with what you say. Right now, the ball is in Kishi's hands. Will he have Naruto go towards NH?? or will he stay on the Sakura path?? 615 certainly gave a strong hint of Naruto->Hinata, but it remains to be seen if it is indeed so.

I would agree with you because holding hands is something really meaningfull for Hinata because it was the first they had a physical contact but if it were to be a pairing hint would be better if Naruto were thinking about Hinata, the scene for a pairing hin was ugly, Naruto holding hands with Hinata, meanwhile he was thinking about Neji and talking with Kyuubi.
It's different than Sakura's confession when they were thinking about each other.
this is the reason why i dont take 615 as a pairing hint, Naruto never had doubts about his feelings and got his feelings reassured even after the confession, also as a development 628 undid the possible development of 615.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 25 April 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[rocci]

I would agree with you because holding hands is something really meaningfull for Hinata because it was the first they had a physical contact but if it were to be a pairing hint would be better if Naruto were thinking about Hinata, the scene for a pairing hin was ugly, Naruto holding hands with Hinata, meanwhile he was thinking about Neji and talking with Kyuubi.
It's different than Sakura's confession when they were thinking about each other.
this is the reason why i dont take 615 as a pairing hint, Naruto never had doubts about his feelings and got his feelings reassured even after the confession, also as a development 628 undid the possible development of 615.

I agree with you on holding hand, I will see it as a pairing hint.
The problem is in love with sakura which is a big deal. If from the start of manga he didn't love sakura 615 basically close to canon. And I don't see naruto change his feeling just like many said no one feeling change off panel.

Yes 615 is romantic moment but from Hinata side, and it support with naruto ambigu feeling. If naruto remind himself his love to sakura do you think our feel with 615 same?

Oh btw I think 615 is a fanservice, but I could be wrong.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I agree with you on holding hand, I will see it as a pairing hint.
The problem is in love with sakura which is a big deal. If from the start of manga he didn't love sakura 615 basically close to canon. And I don't see naruto change his feeling just like many said no one feeling change off panel.

Yes 615 is romantic moment but from Hinata side, and it support with naruto ambigu feeling. If naruto remind himself his love to sakura do you think our feel with 615 same?

Oh btw I think 615 is a fanservice, but I could be wrong.

i strongly belive 615 as fanservice, 615 was moment were not just Hinata but with all his friends Naruto acknowledged them as strong but no what i see is bea4tifull words but 0 action, Naruto doesnt acknowledged Hinata on practice and his friends also it's on the bill, it's like he broke the development and will give to someome the rest of it to seal the deal, he destroyed 615 basically for the sake of something else.
This is called inconsistence.

628 also had a fanservice for NS but what pissed off was that, Naruto insisting that he's right when he was just playing along with Obito's plan and thoughts, he basically lose the war, he chose to not acknowledge his friends and try to protect them at the best of he could despite trying to take down the Juubi, Sakura and the Kyuubi knew of this, they knew Naruto would run out of power and was a matter of time until they get overwhelmed.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 25 April 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well at least somebody in here get the idea that not all are meant to be romantic development, just a development or an individual development. Honestly, 628 doesn't show how he is a different guy, rather just him. He always wants to protect his bonds, so it's him alright. The point of 615 is that even if his friends die, he shouldn't give up, move forward or make their sacrifice meaningless. It's not like he grow a new feeling for Hinata. Also, it happened in the middle, too early to steal the win. Now, we're in the last phase of battle, and Sakura is already enough to make fans hate her and us again. I'm not kidding. We lost stars because of them.

It so happen that she appeared in the first chapter of the volume and when you read the way on how it's made, it suggest every main character is on their own battle. Madara may fight Hashirama while others are busy. It is possible that a part 2 may not happen, because Hashirama may have to decide between fighting one man or save a million. I think that's what Madara may end telling him because he knows Hashirama wants to protect. I can picture that it could be a shocking choice if he goes to the people and Tobirama may argue they can fight Madara now and get it over with. More problem is that Madara has rinnegan now, so the fight won't quick, let alone they're Edo. Something that we may not think at all will happen and it may something to do with Sasuke. No, not a plot twist or maybe not yet. All in all, early to say anything else. Also, it's not like Kuruma agreed with his speech, because even if he wants to protect, it doesn't change the fact he's in near danger and Juubi is now on rampage. In short, Kuruma and Sakura are not done with Naruto. Just have to wait. I guess it depends on who survived the attack. If Sakura is awake, then plan is being made. Otherwise, well we'll see.

[StriderC]

I also have to point out about that chapter where Team 7 and Team 10 first met Obito. I remember some people here saying that Hinata doesn't trust in Naruto very much while Sakura just says "that's nothing, Hinata. Don't worry about him." Isn't this a bit contradictory?? some people are celebrating Sakura's concern for Naruto, but what about Hinata's concern back then?? why did people dismiss Hinata's, while Sakura's is celebrated?? what Branden said is true. It was kind of pointless since we knew that Naruto has to be worn out by now. If it is a setup for something big down the road for Sakura, then I sure as hell hope so.

I'll answer this since no one else did. It's what grabbed me in your post anyway. lol
There's a distant difference between the two, and then take into consideration that when Sakura does it, it's with VERY good reason. Back then when she told Hinata not to worry, she really had nothing to worry about then now did she? Now, Naruto's chakra is messing up jutsu from others. It's nice that she does worry about him, but that wasn't the first time that she's worried about him to the point where it looks like her belief in him in miniscule compared to someone like Sakura who's shown time and time again that she has faith in him. I personally don't think that it's a contradiction but meh.

And, I agree the bolded. He's had her quiet and on the sidelines long enough.

I'm also surprised at the surprise of Sakura not flat out saying some of the things she says mentally. It's just like with Naruto. Naruto doesn't always speak his mind when it comes to Sakura and vice versa. It also does seem as though Kishi has to push back Sakura for characters like Hinata to have any significance with Naruto but that's normally not the case with Sakura. When it came to Sakura ad her hug, the village was right there looking. When it came to Hinata's confession, no one but Pain was around, and Sakura didn't witness it. If Hinata witnessed some of the stuff that goes on between Naruto and Sakura, one would of wondered then if she would of caught on but she never does. Sakura has seen a lot of what goes on between Hinata and Naruto though and so she was able to see that Hinata does in fact have feelings for him.

This is where I'm going with this, and of course, this is just what I think.

I feel as though Kishi might give the floor to Naruto/Sakura interaction/development but it'd be the first time Hinata will catch wind of it. She probably thought nothing of that hug but it's possible she'll think something if she sees them in the light that we have. Looking back, I don't ever remember Hinata actually seeing how Sakura and Naruto are or even once catching a glimpse of how he feels for Sakura. This could of been done purposely to keep her affections for Naruto constant. I starting to find it quite funny how Kishi pretty much played the "poof disappear" trick on Sakura just so Hinata can have Naruto to herself even though she was never gone... I mean, did Kishi really not want Sakura to kill their little moment? It was already bad enough that he had her sitting idly but before when he was an uncontrollable beast, she ran at him with the intent to save him.

What I'm hoping for at this point is of course some Sakura and afterwards some NS development. She seems as though she's gonna be doing something given her response to Naruto's talking. He's pushed his heroine to the side for others long enough and if he cares about her character, he'll make her prominent once again. At this point, I'm tired of waiting.

Don't know why I even rambled here...

Edited by StriderC, 25 April 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Well at least somebody in here get the idea that not all are meant to be romantic development, just a development or an individual development. Honestly, 628 doesn't show how he is a different guy, rather just him. He always wants to protect his bonds, so it's him alright. The point of 615 is that even if his friends die, he shouldn't give up, move forward or make their sacrifice meaningless. It's not like he grow a new feeling for Hinata. Also, it happened in the middle, too early to steal the win. Now, we're in the last phase of battle, and Sakura is already enough to make fans hate her and us again. I'm not kidding. We lost stars because of them.

It so happen that she appeared in the first chapter of the volume and when you read the way on how it's made, it suggest every main character is on their own battle. Madara may fight Hashirama while others are busy. It is possible that a part 2 may not happen, because Hashirama may have to decide between fighting one man or save a million. I think that's what Madara may end telling him because he knows Hashirama wants to protect. I can picture that it could be a shocking choice if he goes to the people and Tobirama may argue they can fight Madara now and get it over with. More problem is that Madara has rinnegan now, so the fight won't quick, let alone they're Edo. Something that we may not think at all will happen and it may something to do with Sasuke. No, not a plot twist or maybe not yet. All in all, early to say anything else. Also, it's not like Kuruma agreed with his speech, because even if he wants to protect, it doesn't change the fact he's in near danger and Juubi is now on rampage. In short, Kuruma and Sakura are not done with Naruto. Just have to wait. I guess it depends on who survived the attack. If Sakura is awake, then plan is being made. Otherwise, well we'll see.

No the point of 615 is that all his friends are willing to protect him, so he should rely on them, and also a lot of people sacrificed their lives for Naruto and he should not give up, so it's Naruto's duty to succeed on the war and not try to protect their friends above the goal of winning the war.
but Naruto did the inverse, Neji sacrificed his life for Naruto because he had faith that Naruto would succeed on winning the war but what i see is Naruto not going to win the war and despite of trying to win it, was just more concerned about protecting his friends.

Proof of this is Obito, Sakura and the Kyuubi, Obito saying "You're just defending all the way" and Sakura "Naruto doing this you're just hurting yourself" and Kyuubi "You're going to run out of chakra soon".
This is the reason why i can safely say that there's no development on 615.

Naruto does not trust his friends and dont allow them to help, he just proved Obito's point that he would give up the difference is that Obito killed the wrong person.
Because of this Naruto lose the war but he's going to win because there's some DEUS EX MACHINA coming to the battlefield.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 25 April 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[MangaReader]

I really don't get how chapter 615 is still causing such a fuss... even more then 370 did. Hand holding for a strategic purpose is not a symbol of romanticism, and even if we didn't see it on panel, Naruto got to hold Sakura's hand as well. Gees guys, pull it together, no point in jumping ship till Naruto tells us who he really loves. Till then he still only has the heart for Sakura and even more, we know she cares enough for him based on her last speech. A battlefield is no place for romance, it blinds you and takes away from the problem at hand. In fact, I don't even know why were even talking about this in a chapter that had nothing to do with pairing anyway. We're the one reducing Sakura's character to pairing fodder, not Kishi...you can't expect her to be in action all the time :|

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I really don't get how chapter 615 is still causing such a fuss... even more then 370 did. Hand holding for a strategic purpose is not a symbol of romanticism, and even if we didn't see it on panel, Naruto got to hold Sakura's hand as well. Gees guys, pull it together, no point in jumping ship till Naruto tells us who he really loves. Till then he still only has the heart for Sakura and even more, we know she cares enough for him based on her last speech. A battlefield is no place for romance, it blinds you and takes away from the problem at hand. In fact, I don't even know why were even talking about this in a chapter that had nothing to do with pairing anyway. We're the one reducing Sakura's character to pairing fodder, not Kishi...you can't expect her to be in action all the time :|

No one is jumping ship and 615 is connected to 628 since 628 undid 615 development.

[MangaReader]

No one is jumping ship and 615 is connected to 628 since 628 undid 615 development.

And yet I still see people talking about the hand holding

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

And yet I still see people talking about the hand holding

What this has to do with Jumping ship?

[MangaReader]

What this has to do with Jumping ship?

The negative comments I've read over the past couple days

[Dkey]

Noone is jumping ships. It's probably frustration that 615 was a huge kidney shot while NS still needs to endure. All of us agree that NS is portraited closer to reality while NH bases itself on a magical moment that would make Naruto fall in love with Hinata.

Im going a bit off topic but I always assumed that pierrot werent so biased as many have accused them of being and that some NH moments are trolling moments.


still as a NS fan its pretty stressful to see all the hate in the fandom

[Don-kun]

The negative comments I've read over the past couple days

Why for some people all user need to pretend that everything is just rainbows and sunshine with this Manga?
Every user have their right to be positive or negative about stuff they don't like or stuff they like, we as fellow member should find the way to counter their negative point of view, expand the positive point of view with our own thoughts or simple just skip their post while finding something more interesting to talk about.

Me personally, I dislike it when people are too over confident but I also dislike it when people are too negative, does that doesn't mean that I want other to see things the same way I do? NO.
I give my opinion and if you want to consider it good, if you don't is still good.