19964 replies to this topic

[redragon88]

I guess I just feel that this "achieving the girl of your dreams" just falls right next to creepshots and submissive housewives: every one of these situations seems to ignore dreams and desires of women to make dreams and desires of men come true.

You think trying to get a girlfriend (achieve the girl of your dreams) is the same as creepshots and submissive housewives? Well, I'm probably just misunderstanding.

Still, remember that Naruto is the complete opposite of that description of yours. He actually puts his own feelings aside for the sake of Sakura's happiness. That's why Naruto's morality is very commendable and an example for many people to follow. That's why I believe it's an excellent message for him to get the girl he has treated in such a way. It's important that we see the results that such selfless actions bring about, and since we're near the end of the story Sakura is the only option that can serve to show how taking on Naruto's attitude is important when you consider charming the one you like.

The free will bit is not really get out of jail card. Not many movies, for example, dare force the woman to choose the "right man". She will just be judged, by characters in the movie and by audiences watching, to be shallow, manipulative user if she does not fall in love with the designated hero. It's sort of the audience reaction that makes this trope horrible. Does that make sense?

I personally wouldn't be pissed at the woman, she's not even real. I would be annoyed with the writer for screwing up the message. But that's only if the message was of similar essence to Naruto's.

Different stories have different messages. Some show the importance of letting go, some show the importance of not giving up. It all depend on the scenario being portrayed. If the message that is trying to be communicates is contradicted by the actions of the characters then there's bound to be disappointment.

Let's look at it backwards. A story starts of with people being in a relationship that is not good for them, but in the end they stick together even if it's shown that it's better of for them to be separated. In that scenario people would be mad that they didn't split up instead of remaining together. It all depends on the type of situation being presented.

Edited by redragon88, 18 October 2012 - 11:18 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

You think trying to get a girlfriend (achieve the girl of your dreams) is the same as creepshots and submissive housewives? Well, I'm probably just misunderstanding.

Not in itself but it can be if the guy in question is particularly uninterested in respecting the girl he is trying to get together with. Basically if Naruto was in the habit of stalking Sakura to her house and watching her in her sleep a la Edward Cullen. Then it would be very creepy and disrespecful, no? There are milder examples as well. Sometimes men can touch you without permission and not even realize how uncomfortable it is for the woman being touched. I have honestly had men hug me and kiss me without any indication from me that I wanted them to do so. Complete strangers in a bar landing their mouth on mine? No thanks

Still, remember that Naruto is the complete opposite of that description of yours. He actually puts his own feelings aside for the sake of Sakura's happiness. That's why Naruto's morality is very commendable and an example for many people to follow.

Yep. Naruto is honestly nothing like the Nice Guys. He truly really is a good guy who respects women. It's the Naruto fandom who are the problem and their behavior the one I really have problem with.

That's why I believe it's an excellent message for him to get the girl he has treated in such a way. It's important that we see the results that such selfless actions bring about

Well, I don't think Naruto's selfless actions should really bring about anything to him. They should be in themselves the reward. I sort of feel that you would like to see Naruto's selfless love for Sakura being rewarded, and the reward be Sakura's love. Which sort of goes back to my point that Sakura shouldn't really be the reward because she is a person, not a object.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Not in itself but it can be if the guy in question is particularly uninterested in respecting the girl he is trying to get together with. Basically if Naruto was in the habit of stalking Sakura to her house and watching her in her sleep a la Edward Cullen. Then it would be very creepy and disrespecful, no? There are milder examples as well. Sometimes men can touch you without permission and not even realize how uncomfortable it is for the woman being touched. I have honestly had men hug me and kiss me without any indication from me that I wanted them to do so. Complete strangers in a bar landing their mouth on mine? No thanks

No! NO! TWILIGHT suckS!

Yep. Naruto is honestly nothing like the Nice Guys. He truly really is a good guy who respects women. It's the Naruto fandom who are the problem and their behavior the one I really have problem with.

Yes differently than the nice guys he has a dilemna is pretty obvious that would be weird to him if he does not get sakura in the end.

Well, I don't think Naruto's selfless actions should really bring about anything to him. They should be in themselves the reward. I sort of feel that you would like to see Naruto's selfless love for Sakura being rewarded, and the reward be Sakura's love. Which sort of goes back to my point that Sakura shouldn't really be the reward because she is a person, not a object.

Consequence, a reward stuff is not something that will happen but it will be a consequence, consequence of sasuke actions, begining of part 1, lover nin scene and naruto achievements.

saying reward sounds sexist and stupid, because being rewarded is not something that happen on naruto's manga, naruto is not rewarded.

Reward does not apply to naruto everything is gained thought hard work but this does not apply to sasuke wich is an exception.

Edited by dovahkiin, 19 October 2012 - 12:26 AM.

[redragon88]

Well, I don't think Naruto's selfless actions should really bring about anything to him. They should be in themselves the reward. I sort of feel that you would like to see Naruto's selfless love for Sakura being rewarded, and the reward be Sakura's love. Which sort of goes back to my point that Sakura shouldn't really be the reward because she is a person, not a object.

Sorry, but that doesn't really make a lot of sense. You can't honestly believe that people should be fine with being selfless even though that would mean that they'll never get the affection of a person they like. We're not supposed to be love martyrs, destined to be selflessly alone, where supposed to know that being selfless brings about an eventual reward. If they tell you that being selfless will never work when charming someone, would you keep doing it? Of course not. Why would you keep doing something that will guarantee that you remain alone?

It's the same with Sasuke, we're supposed to believe that never giving up on someone will eventually give you the reward of that person changing his ways. If Sasuke remains evil and hateful of Naruto then would you say that Naruto not giving up on him is the reward itself, even if Sasuke would still hate him forever? Of course not. No one is going to try and help someone knowing it's useless, they'll do it because they believe that person can change. It's the same with selfless love, you don't do it thinking it won't work, you do it because you believe eventually the right person (out of the many you have liked) will notice you that way.

If being selfless can't help you get together with the one you like then that's the last thing you would do. But the point of the Naruto story it to prove that concept right. To prove that by treating those that you like with respect that eventually there will be one that will notice your good qualities and decide to be with you. And before you say Hinata, let me remind you that Naruto doesn't like her that way. This is about you changing the perspective of the one you like, not about you changing your perspective of the one that likes you. You're the one trying to make the effort here of charming someone, not the other way around.

Naruto's selfless attitude toward love should be rewarded, but that doesn't mean he's entitled to Sakura. It's not about Sakura, it just about Naruto getting the love of a girl he likes. If in this story Naruto tried to win the affection of a thousand girls (the same way he did with Sakura) and only the last one accepted him I wouldn't go saying the other 999 were terrible girls for not liking him back, they just weren't meant to be with Naruto. It would actually be a good thing that the other 999 rejected him since the one he would be the happiest with would be the last girl, and that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't rejected by the other 999.

The problem is, as I've explained before, that Sakura is the only one Naruto has ever loved so there's no time to do all the love development again with another girl since the story is about to end. It can't be Hinata since she already loves him so he wouldn't have to make any effort, and I can't be some random girl since there's not time for any development now near the end.

Think about it this way you say that Sakura's love shouldn't be a reward for Naruto because that makes her an object. But what about Sasuke? If Naruto gets Sasuke's friendship by the end of the series, would that make Sasuke an object?

Consequence, a reward stuff is not something that will happen but it will be a consequence, consequence of sasuke actions, begining of part 1, lover nin scene and naruto achievements.

saying reward sounds sexist and stupid, because being rewarded is not something that happen on naruto's manga, naruto is not rewarded.

Reward does not apply to naruto everything is gained thought hard work but this does not apply to sasuke wich is an exception.

You're on that. I guess calling it the consequences of hard work is better than to call it a reward.

Sakura's love, Sasuke's friendship, being Hokage, etc. will all be the consequences of Naruto's hard work.

Edited by redragon88, 19 October 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[TerrorKing]

And you don't think that it's a bit problematic that that "anything" you can achieve also incluces a human being, a girl? I don't so much think that this "you can achieve anything" is a horrible message as I think that it has this problematic feel to it. It basically tells all the men that women will always be available to them, as long as they try hard enough. Not true that, is it?

That depends on how you look at it. Yes, Naruto and Sakura are both people with each their dreams, hopes and ambitions. However, they are also representative of a lot of tropes and cliches. Naruto is the hero of the story and Sakura is his love interest and since it's very a common cliche that the hero always gets the girl/boy, it's very likely that the Naruto series will take a similar route. This will most likely also mean that Kishi will write the story in such a way that it will reflect this cliche. Now you might be thinking that this will mean that he will just force Sakura to be with Naruto, but I don't think so.

The reason I ship NS is because I feel it's the pairing that makes the most sense and it's the only one of the three main pairings that have any sort of substantial mutual development. I also just really like Naruto and Sakura's relationship and how it's not driven solely by passion but also by a deep mutual understanding and willingness to protect each other. Furthermore, I ship NS because I really like Naruto and Sakura's characters and because I want what I feel is best for them. I want Naruto to achieve all his goals and I want Sakura to lead a happy life full of love and the only way I can see that happening is if she gets together with Naruto. Right now he's the only person who I feel will be able to bring her true happiness.

You see, Sakura is my favorite character, so I would really like for her to come out of this story as a much better and stronger person than she was in the beginning. She has come a long way since part 1, but she still has some problems that she needs to work through, Sasuke being one of them. Throughout the entire series, her infatuation with Sasuke has almost always been portrayed as a negative thing. It does nothing but hold her back and bring out her worst qualities. That might all very well change. Maybe Naruto will be able to change Sasuke for the better and then he might be able to give Sakura a chance. But with the way things are right now, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

How would you feel about Sakura if she rejected Naruto in the end? If she chose Sasuke instead? Would you view her in any of those ways I tried to describe above? Would you think that her character development had come to nothing, for example?

If SS becomes canon, I certainly wouldn't hate Sakura or start calling her a b*tch or anything like that. However, my opinion of Kishi as a writer and the story as a whole would be greatly diminshed and I would very much feel that her character was mishandled. As I stated before, her love for Sasuke has almost always been portrayed as something negative that only brings out her worst traits. However if SS does end up becoming canon I won't really mind, as long as it's done well and to me that's really the most important part of all this. Is the pairing done well? Right now, the only pairing that lives up to that criteria is NS. If NS didn't fulfill that criteria, I probably wouldn't ship it in the first place.

Basically, I feel that NS is Kishi's definition of what a healthy relationship should be. One that developes slowly over time and one where both parties are willing to accept each other as they are with all the good an bad traits that come with it and one where both parties can be seen as equals. That's what I believe Kishi wants us to take away from the romance in this series. As I mentioned at the very beginning, Naruto is the hero and Sakura is his love interest. I don't know how much of this Kishi had planned out from the beginning, but I do believe that he wanted to have a story where the main characters gets the girl/boy of his dreams and he wrote the story to reflect that, while also keeping his idea of an ideal relationship in mind.

Lastly, to my knowledge "Nice girls" are just as common as "Nice guys". One of the most common arguments for NH is that Hinata is a "Nice girl" and therefore she deserves Naruto's love. Hell, I've seen the "Nice girl" thing used with SS as well. "Sakura is such a nice girl to Sasuke so she deserves him".

Edited by TerrorKing, 19 October 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Wow, this place is on fire. I'm really liking what I read from all of you guys. It's like presidential debate, but more exciting. I really the fact that not only people in here back up Naruto's defense but as well as Sakura.

I really do believe that NS is the one Kishi has chosen a long time ago. Actually, since he started the manga. To me, I see the time of SS is long gone. The reason is because it's like I said before, the reunion that happened in Kage Summit Arc was like the last time we will see them all interact, yet Naruto got the most of it, Kakashi was long overdue and Sakura continues to get crapped on, which is pretty negative. That said I know we will get another Team 7 reunion, but it will be the last one. The point of the last reunion is to gather around and see where are they going with this whole situation. It's concluded that it's up to Naruto and Sasuke to bring the answer to the whole thing. In other words, Kakashi and Sakura are backed out from them until it is resolved and yes, they said it themselves. The next meeting, which Kishi is pretty much saying, will be the fight.

That said do you really think there's room for SS. There isn't, only a resolution to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. If anything, if SS becomes canon, it will happen off-panel and epilogue will suggest that they got well together. To me, that's a bad idea, because the resolution of two people after going through multiple developments should happen on panel. You can't tell us that Sasuke eventually love Sakura off-panel. The fans wouldn't like it and they will be upset, sending a bad review letters and what not. Sakura isn't done with Naruto as far as development goes. Not only understanding her feelings, but the stuff Naruto placed himself (planning to die with Sasuke?). It's guarantee that they will talk to each other soon. Another problem is that Sasuke didn't do anything that tells you that he's a great guy to be with. A lot of fans acknowledge that. Naruto got that smile, which Kishi seems to be a fan of. Those who smiles at his/her love interest will smile as well. Sasuke has not done that at all to Sakura. Only to Naruto (in a friendly/rivalry way). Also, a lot of things he has done suggest a bad relationship. I don't buy it. You know it was bad when Sakura, the one who is in love with Sasuke, said that they never talk. If you suggest that they never communicate is love, then that's just bad writing.

Lastly, there's nothing that tells us about Sasuke's love. Nothing at all. If you want him to think of Sakura, your best bet is when he thinks of Team 7. That's it. I reread the manga and noticed that he never thought of her individually. The whole third party support suggest that he needs a family/friends to bring him happy. Naruto not only gets these same support about family/friends, but he gets support on each categories (best friend, love interest, etc.). Naruto has more accomplishments that need to be done. That's why I feel that Naruto has more priority than Sasuke when it comes to goals and dreams. Naruto has so many obstacles that is dangerous. Kishi wants us to root for Naruto to overcome everything in his way. We are closing to the end, and his goals/dreams/etc. are getting closer to reality.

For the record, I respect your pairing support on SS. I'm not bashing you. When I say "you," I mean people who reads this in general. Again, I don't go around and write hate stuff on SS or NH. I'm only expressing my thoughts here since well, we are in the heat of the moment.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 19 October 2012 - 01:47 AM.

[Lucky Star]

Just caught up on this conversation but redragon88, TerrorKing and NaruSaku4Life thank you for your awesome posts! You guys pretty much read my mind

@ Poison in your Coffee

I get what you're trying to say.I know many people think NS believes that if Sakura doesn't like Naruto back she's a b*tch and a horrible person but I think that's a misconception. That "argument" annoys me to no end. You're right, no one is entitled to someone's love. Just because someone is selfless to you and is a nice guy doesn't mean you have to love them. This also applies to NH because one of their main arguments is that Hinata somehow "deserves" Naruto more than Sakura (OMG she risked her life for him!! ). It also annoys me when guys on the internet insult girls who "friendzone" them while they were nice to her (and when girls do it too).

That being said, I don't think the theme 'never give up' means Sakura will love Naruto because he's going to get everything he wants. To me it means that won't give up on her meaning that he's not going to stop loving her because of a (debatable) lie. Just as he hasn't given up on Sasuke, he won't give up on Sakura. Naruto's selfless actions to Sakura and her feelings show he doesn't think he's entitled and he won't be mad if she doesn't return his feelings. I don't want Sakura to be with Naruto because he deserves her or because she might feel mean turning him down or because Sasuke went to the dark side. I want her to be with Naruto because I believe she loves him for who he is and he loves her for who she is.

[redragon88]

Just to clarify, when I say Naruto should be rewarded for his selfless love I don't mean a girl should just be with him because of his selfless actions. When I say rewarded I mean that he deserves to find a girl who he likes that also likes him back for how he truly is: selfless and kind.

I think we can all agree that Naruto is deserving of a girl he truly loves. But that doesn't mean that a girl should be with him if she doesn't want to. No person should be forced to be with anyone just because they're kind to you.

We all have found ourselves in situations where we see kind hearted people doing good things. I'm sure many of us come to the thought that such people deserve all the happiness they can get. Believing that people deserve good things is not bad at all. It's only totally wrong if you force people to do something they don't want to just because a person is kind.

I'm sure the same conclusion can be drawn from Naruto and Sakura.

Does Naruto deserves to be together with Sakura, the girl he loves the most, given his selfless actions toward her? Yes
Does that mean that Sakura must choose Naruto as her lover no matter what since he was kind to her? No

Edited by redragon88, 19 October 2012 - 03:02 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Just to clarify, when I say Naruto should be rewarded for his selfless love I don't mean a girl should just be with him because of his selfless actions. When I say rewarded I mean that he deserves to find a girl who he likes that also likes him back for how he truly is: selfless and kind.

I think we can all agree that Naruto is deserving of a girl he truly loves. But that doesn't mean that a girl should be with him if she doesn't want to. No person should be forced to be with anyone just because they're kind to you.

We all have found ourselves in situations where we see kind hearted people doing good things. I'm sure many of us come to the thought that such people deserve all the happiness they can get. Believing that people deserve good things is not bad at all. It's only totally wrong if you force people to do something they don't want to just because a person is kind.

I'm sure the same conclusion can be drawn from Naruto and Sakura.

Does Naruto deserves to be together with Sakura, the girl he loves the most, given his selfless actions toward her? Yes
Does that mean that Sakura must choose Naruto as her lover no matter what since he was kind to her? No

Agreed.

I think this whole argument would have been negated if Kishi didn't drop hint that Sakura is falling for Naruto. If there were no panels suggesting that, hug that's only seen as a friend (removing outside reactions and Naruto's "huh" face), Removing Sai and Yamato's comments on Sakura, then this whole situation would be a lot different than now. Your last two statement would make this pairing 50/50 if Sakura shows no sign of falling for Naruto. Fortunately for us, there is a sign. So, Naruto and Sakura being together won't come out forced at all. And that's the best kind of victory.

P.S. No, Sakura is not a reward. It's just hard to word it without making them as a trophy. I know I do.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 19 October 2012 - 03:11 AM.

[redragon88]

P.S. No, Sakura is not a reward. It's just hard to word it without making them as a trophy. I know I do.

She's not an object to be gained, that's true. It's about how Naruto's selfless actions influence Sakura's view of him, which culminate with her falling in love with him. It's the same with Sasuke, Naruto's determination will make him change his views about Naruto and the world, culminating in him acknowledging Naruto as a true friend.

If Naruto being together with Sakura is just viewed as a reward of love, then Sasuke being friends with Naruto could as easily be view as a reward of friendship. But we know that neither of them are objects to be gained by Naruto. So it makes it hard to give a proper description.

[TouKen4Life3g]

She's not an object to be gained, that's true. It's about how Naruto's selfless actions influence Sakura's view of him, which culminate with her falling in love with him. It's the same with Sasuke, Naruto's determination will make him change his views about Naruto and the world, culminating in him acknowledging Naruto as a true friend.

If Naruto being together with Sakura is just viewed as a reward of love, then Sasuke being friends with Naruto could as easily be view as a reward of friendship. But we know that neither of them are objects to be gained by Naruto. So it makes it hard to give a proper description.

Yeah, I still have trouble on how to word it right without making Sakura as an object. Obviously, I don't see her as a trophy. But what you said earlier your post perfectly describe what I was trying to say in the first place. You're on a roll btw.

[narulsaku]

noone is saying that sakura is a trophy or reward. i say if naruto and sakura would be together then it would be like winning a trophy or reward {the best ever for me}

[TouKen4Life3g]

noone is saying that sakura is a trophy or reward. i say if naruto and sakura would be together then it would be like winning a trophy or reward {the best ever for me}

Of course we're not saying that. It's just hard to address in appropriate way. I guess that's why redragon88 adressed it in a long way. But it is worth to read that's for sure.

[narulsaku]

yes i read it and i agreed. but we can say that it would be achives for him for his hard working

[TouKen4Life3g]

yes i read it and i agreed. but we can say that it would be achives for him for his hard working

Agreed.

Sure got quiet in here. I guess we got it down nicely. It was sure fun.

[PhenixElite]

Agreed.

Sure got quiet in here. I guess we got it down nicely. It was sure fun.

No its just because Poison_in your_coffee is currently offline.
The posts from today and yesterday look about 90% the same.
And i have the bad feeling this is going to continue for a while.

To be honest i dont give much about these: who is entitled to whom and who deserves whom or who is a reward.
I only argument about the logic in NS and as far as we have seen how the story progressed its just too obvious what pairings going to happen!

Edited by PhenixElite, 19 October 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

No its just because Poison_in your_coffee is currently offline.
The posts from today and yesterday look about 90% the same.
And i have the bad feeling this is going to continue for a while.

I don't know, this is a blessing in disguise. I see more reinforced argument from us, like how redragon88 handled it. It was well worth my time. I couldn't say any better. It just reinforced the idea that Naruto should end up with Sakura but not forcefully. It's presented in a well developed way that everyone can appreciate it. Sure, there will be haters, but in general perspective, it's worth the wait.

I understand what you mean. It's just good to see why and how everyone else see this pairing to be the number 1 choice as well as why they love it.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 19 October 2012 - 06:18 AM.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

@PoisionInYourCoffee:

Sure got active her since I was last online .

I'd like to say that Sakura is not some sort of trophy to Naruto. She's a person with her own feelings and her own choices. If she truly does not love Naruto and choses Sasuke, we should not insult her in any way. It's her feelings and you don't always fall in love with people who seem the healthier or better choice just because they do everthing for you and put you above themselves. If I'm completely honest with you, SS is the one pairing I hate the most in Naruto. It ruins Sakura's character by making her seem submissive and insecure, not the fiery and strong-willed teen she really is with Naruto. That's exactly why I ship it: Sakura is my 2nd favorite character and all I ever see for her in SasuSaku is misery and feelings of depression. In NaruSaku, she's happy and bright like she's supposed to be. I don't see her happiness with Sasuke romantically (Friendship though, yes) and believe only Naruto will truly be the one who makes her life happy and fulfilled.

I would not hate Sakura if she chose Sasuke even though I am strongly against an outcome like that. Sakura should be happy and if she believes that to be with Sasuke then I'll swallow the bile in my throat and hope for her happiness . But I would still be pissed about it, mostly at Kishi because I'd feel disillusioned and her growth was never truly completed like it would be if she chose Naruto. I would rage and call it an asspull but I would not hate Sakura's character. Hating a character just because they didn't chose the person you preferred they'd be with despite formerly claiming to love their character, shows to me you were never a true fan of them in the first place. It's superficial and shallow. Pairings aren't everything. I completely despise how some hardcore fans in every fandom hate a character just because there either a) In the way of your OTP or b). Chose a person you never wanted them to be with. Blame the author, not the fictional character.

My point is, if Sakura doesn't want Naruto then fine. It's her decision and she was never a prize for Naruto in the first place. You can't force yourself to love someone just because they're "better" for you. That's just life. Nevertheless, Naruto being with Sakura would still IMO follow the themes of "surpassing the previous" and "achieving happiness through effort. "

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 20 October 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[narulsaku]

okey now thats making me more sick . no one is saying that sakura is a trophy ashley. just cut it lets start a new topic. how about this . from some times i ve got a question. why kisi showed sasusaku and naruhina moments . we all know there are some. if he is really inteded to make narusaku from the begining then why he showed those moments . that make me think that he didnt wanted narusaku.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

okey now thats making me more sick . no one is saying that sakura is a trophy ashley. just cut it lets start a new topic. how about this . from some times i ve got a question. why kisi showed sasusaku and naruhina moments . we all know there are some. if he is really inteded to make narusaku from the begining then why he showed those moments . that make me think that he didnt wanted narusaku.

You don't have to be rude about it. I was just responding to PoisionInMyCoffee and putting my thoughts down cause I didn't get a chance to earlier. What's wrong with that?