19964 replies to this topic

[PhenixElite]

First of all, thanks for all the replies. Special thanks to you, Branden. Always feel so welcomed around here. You know, some might think that feminism is a good thing and not at all incompatible with the NS Pairing.

So anyway, I will try to answer to all of your replies. It's gonna take a while: I really want my reply to be as good and clear as possible. Just wanted to let you know that I'm not going anywhere and will reply. I try to get my post up later this evening (but am making no promises, I started to write it, and my god is it long already) so now you all have something to look forward to, no? (That was a joke.)

Thanks for your patience and loving welcome.

Edit. I thought to post one reply already since I am a little confused.


Well... exactly. This is what I'm talking about. Naruto being willing to accept that Sakura may have someone else that she wants, loves. Naruto stepping out of the way. Naruto not believing that he is entitled to her. Perhaps this is something that will happen to solve the romantic plot? Naruto steps aside and message is sent: good men accept women's decisions and respect their choices in life. redragon88 asked what kind of message Naruto not getting Sakura could possible send and I replied with one example. So I'm a little confused. Are you and I disagreeing? I feel the rest of your post was kind of irrelevant to my original point.

Edit 2.

You know, I'm gonna go ahead and post the little I wrote already. My main reply is to redragon88 anyway, so perhaps it's more simple if I reply to the rest of you and to him(?) in separate post.

TerrorKing said:

And you don't think that it's a bit problematic that that "anything" you can achieve also incluces a human being, a girl? I don't so much think that this "you can achieve anything" is a horrible message as I think that it has this problematic feel to it. It basically tells all the men that women will always be available to them, as long as they try hard enough. Not true that, is it?

Rest of replies are for Dovahkiin, though I question whether they have anything do to with the actual subject...


You know, I never said anything about Sasuke and Sakura. How do you know what I believe about the pairing? I do think that SS has some very problematic parts in it. However, this being an NS forum and all that, I thought to discuss it and the problems I see in NS.


Why do you view yourself as a loser just because some woman did not fall in love with you? You are not a loser because of that. You were just unlucky. You demonstrate, IMO, very well what is wrong with this "nice good guy gets the girl" attitude: it also makes the men involved feel like losers if they don't "get the girl", so to speak.


No, sweetie. This message is supposed to say that men are not losers just because they didn't get the girl. You worth is not decided by getting the girl. Your worth is decided by how you treat your fellow humans beings.

Sorry, redragon88, for the wait. I just think that your post deserves to have a clear reply and some clarifications from me. Unfortunately, this will take some time. Hope you don't mind.

I think we tend to forget that this is not real life. Its just a freakin shounen manga: hero get the girl hes in love with since chapter 3, END! Till now (chapter 605), we had about 1000 ns moments and parallels.

Sorry but if you ask me theres no need to even discuss about sakura choosing someone else.
I think it could happen if kishi were a bad writer but he showed me in 605 chapters that he isnt!

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I'm saying that it is because Naruto shows such respect for Sakura's feelings that he is a good match for her romantically. He doesn't need to step aside as he has already done so; if Sakura reciprocates the feelings that Naruto already has, there's nothing harmful about it. It sends a message that respecting other people's feelings is part of genuine love, and not something that should ever be forced (which the manga implies, and the anime states outright about Naruto's feelings for Sakura -> "Sure nothing would make me happier than to have her choose me. But I would never force her to love me. As long as she's happy, I'll be happy").

And I don't disagree.

I love Sakura's character, and want her to be with someone who loves her, and respects her, and whom she also loves back. I want her to be with someone who wants nothing more than her happiness, and whom she feels the same for in return. If it was just about the other guy treating her good and ignoring her feelings entirely, I would ship her with Lee (who is also very good to her, but whom she has not shown any romantic feelings for in return).

I love Sakura, too.

I'm not understanding how NaruSaku becoming canon is in anyway anti-feminist.

I don't understand that either. Do you see the source of my confusion already?

I feel like we are talking a bit past each other. I am not saying that NS is anti-feminist as a pairing. I just sometimes feel that the fandom acts in a way that is very sexist. You know? They say stuff like: "Sakura is useless, she is not worthy of Naruto, Naruto is so nice to her, why does she hit him, why is she so mean to him? Why does she still have feelings for Sasuke? She is so dumb for having feelings for a guy that tried to kill her! She should pick Naruto, he is always there for her. b*tch, she doesn't deserve Naruto!". You know what I'm saying? So I feel that the fandom tends to judge Sakura for not picking the nice guy Naruto and having feelings for bad guy Sasuke. They really shouldn't judge her for this: It's sexist. So in a way Kishi sending a message like "guys and girls, you are not entitled to anyone's love" would be a welcome message, no?

Dovahkiin, I don't disagree. I think Naruto would have really hard time dealing with not getting Sakura but I still think that he would try to be happy for her and wouldn't try to destroy her relationship, whether that relationship is with Sasuke, Lee, Love Letter Nin or some other man.

PhenixElite, perhaps he will. My question is: should he? It's not like he's entitled to anyone just because he is the hero. I don't think anyone here really disagrees with that?

Edit. I pretty much have to leave for work now. redragon88, again, I really try to respond later today. I think I can raise some pretty good points about your 2 posts. I put responding to you on my to-do-list.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 18 October 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[Gravenimage]

I think we tend to forget that this is not real life. Its just a freakin shounen manga: hero get the girl hes in love with since chapter 3, END! Till now (chapter 605), we had about 1000 ns moments and parallels.

Sorry but if you ask me theres no need to even discuss about sakura choosing someone else.
I think it could happen if kishi were a bad writer but he showed me in 605 chapters that he isnt!

This^ but still I think it's fun to discuss the many possibilities and layers it has to offer. Most of the members who discuss this topic enjoys to take it a little further. By what you say is simple logic and it's pretty clear Naruto is just another shounen manga where the hero gets the heroine tsundere but I just love how Kishi has developed NS so much and this is probably the best pairing in the shounen area where is having so much development than others shounen manga. Though it has been done and the pairing is not officially canon, however Kishi keeps adding it more development like he wants to continue filling it with the many parallels he's only intending to close the canon door at the end of the manga.

Edited by Gravenimage, 18 October 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[PhenixElite]

And I don't disagree.


I love Sakura, too.


I don't understand that either. Do you see the source of my confusion already?

I feel like we are talking a bit past each other. I am not saying that NS is anti-feminist as a pairing. I just sometimes feel that the fandom acts in a way that is very sexist. You know? They say stuff like: "Sakura is useless, she is not worthy of Naruto, Naruto is so nice to her, why does she hit him, why is she so mean to him? Why does she still have feelings for Sasuke? She is so dumb for having feelings for a guy that tried to kill her! She should pick Naruto, he is always there for her. b*tch, she doesn't deserve Naruto!". You know what I'm saying? So I feel that the fandom tends to judge Sakura for not picking the nice guy Naruto and having feelings for bad guy Sasuke. They really shouldn't judge her for this: It's sexist. So in a way Kishi sending a message like "guys and girls, you are not entitled to anyone's love" would be a welcome message, no?

Dovahkiin, I don't disagree. I think Naruto would have really hard time dealing with not getting Sakura but I still think that he would try to be happy for her and wouldn't try to destroy her relationship, whether that relationship is with Sasuke, Lee, Love Letter Nin or some other man.

PhenixElite, perhaps he will. My question is: should he? It's not like he's entitled to anyone just because he is the hero. I don't think anyone here really disagrees with that?

I dont care about entitled or not. As already said its a manga not real life. Hes just a fantasy charcter drawn by kishi. And as far as we know this is a story about naruto reaching his goals and dreams, so of course the audience is ment to support him.
So why should kishi make naruto loosing obe of his goals, when he also says we should support naruto?

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

it's pretty clear Naruto is just another shounen manga where the hero gets the heroine tsundere

Well, I'm not that familiar with shounen. Naruto is about the only shounen manga I read. So I could be talking pure nonsense here but when reading Naruto I honestly can't tell what pairing will be happening. On the other hand, Naruto and Sakura get closer and closer as the comic goes on, on the other hand Hinata is really sympathetic character and seems to think she has a chance to get Naruto. Sasuke is very important to Naruto, and Naruto is also willing to sacrifice his own happiness so Sakura is happy. And honestly, I think that Naruto would sacrifice his own happiness for Sasuke's happiness as well. So I very easily see Naruto stepping aside so SS can happen. There are other problems when it comes to SS, but Naruto is not, IMO, really one of them: he would be happy to see his two best friends together and happy. So I really am confused and honestly have no idea what pairings will be happening.

PhenixElite, we should support Naruto because he is a good guy who respects women and their choices in life. That is far more deserving of respect than getting the girl.

Now I really have to go, though. Thanks for the replies.

[Gravenimage]

Well, I'm not that familiar with shounen. Naruto is about the only shounen manga I read. So I could be talking pure nonsense here but when reading Naruto I honestly can't tell what pairing will be happening. On the other hand, Naruto and Sakura get closer and closer as the comic goes on, on the other hand Hinata is really sympathetic character and seems to think she has a chance to get Naruto. Sasuke is very important to Naruto, and Naruto is also willing to sacrifice his own happiness so Sakura is happy. And honestly, I think that Naruto would sacrifice his own happiness for Sasuke's happiness as well. So I very easily see Naruto stepping aside so SS can happen. There are other problems when it comes to SS, but Naruto is not, IMO, really one of them: he would be happy to see his two best friends together and happy. So I really am confused and honestly have no idea what pairings will be happening.

PhenixElite, we should support Naruto because he is a good guy who respects women and their choices in life. That is far more deserving of respect than getting the girl.

Now I really have to go, though. Thanks for the replies.

Then I recommend you start reading, Inuyasha, Ranma 1/2, Full Metal Panic and Full Metal Alchemist brotherhood perfect examples of shounen manga of the male protagonist ending with the heroine tsundere. Or you can watch the anime too.

Edited by Gravenimage, 18 October 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[PhenixElite]

Well, I'm not that familiar with shounen. Naruto is about the only shounen manga I read. So I could be talking pure nonsense here but when reading Naruto I honestly can't tell what pairing will be happening. On the other hand, Naruto and Sakura get closer and closer as the comic goes on, on the other hand Hinata is really sympathetic character and seems to think she has a chance to get Naruto. Sasuke is very important to Naruto, and Naruto is also willing to sacrifice his own happiness so Sakura is happy. And honestly, I think that Naruto would sacrifice his own happiness for Sasuke's happiness as well. So I very easily see Naruto stepping aside so SS can happen. There are other problems when it comes to SS, but Naruto is not, IMO, really one of them: he would be happy to see his two best friends together and happy. So I really am confused and honestly have no idea what pairings will be happening.

PhenixElite, we should support Naruto because he is a good guy who respects women and their choices in life. That is far more deserving of respect than getting the girl.

Now I really have to go, though. Thanks for the replies.

Yes of course if you want to see it this way! Anything can happen because kishi is the writer he can do whatever he wants.
BUT as far as the story progressed, he would be mad to make another pairing canon and destroy the whole story.

Yes it would be a really great story to show the main character /who had a sad and hard life and had noone till he was 12), letting the love of his life getting together with the "poor" sasuke who tried to kill sakura 2 TIMES.
Yes! A really good story to show how the villain of the story (who at least was loved by everyone in the past but then decided to leave the village because hes only looking for revenge) getting together with sakura just to life a happy life and naruto stays alone like always, hmmmmmmmmm wait......

EDIT:

My advise to you reread the whole manga without 1 week break between the chapters and then tell me again you have no idea what pairing will happen.

Edited by PhenixElite, 18 October 2012 - 02:47 PM.

[redragon88]

Well... exactly. This is what I'm talking about. Naruto being willing to accept that Sakura may have someone else that she wants, loves. Naruto stepping out of the way. Naruto not believing that he is entitled to her. Perhaps this is something that will happen to solve the romantic plot? Naruto steps aside and message is sent: good men accept women's decisions and respect their choices in life. redragon88 asked what kind of message Naruto not getting Sakura could possible send and I replied with one example. So I'm a little confused. Are you and I disagreeing? I feel the rest of your post was kind of irrelevant to my original point.

That is a very important message that everyone must learn through life in order to become a better person, I completely agree with it. Although it kinda bothers me a little that you're only specifying the men as the ones that must respect the decisions. You're not implying that women are allowed to disregard a guy's decision of not liking them back, are you?

People must learn the importance of letting go and it genuinely serves for good storytelling, but as I as in my previous post Naruto is not meant to be one of those stories when you look at the overall message of not giving up that has been transmitted throughout the entirety of the manga. The story of Naruto is of how this boy achieved the impossible just out of pure determination all while never compromising his morality. For the story and message to be properly conveyed in this story Naruto must get together with Sakura.

And you don't think that it's a bit problematic that that "anything" you can achieve also incluces a human being, a girl? I don't so much think that this "you can achieve anything" is a horrible message as I think that it has this problematic feel to it. It basically tells all the men that women will always be available to them, as long as they try hard enough. Not true that, is it?

Again with the men only statements? I know you aren't doing it on purpose but you're coming off a little sexist. Again, let me clarify, I know you aren't doing it on purpose. I just wanted to let you know the impression the words you write are giving. Remember that in my first reply to you I said that I went out of my way to try and keep the explanations about love as much gender neutral as possible.

The girls can also learn from Naruto's determination, it doesn't have to be a message only for boys. Just because Naruto is a guy doesn't mean girls can't take him as a role model, his believes are something that anyone can take as an example to live by.

Still, let's make the bolded gender neutral: "It basically tells people that the one they like will always be available, as long as they try hard enough. Not true that, is it?"

I completely agree with your statement, we can't always have what we want. The message of Naruto is not about getting what we want simply because we try hard enough. The message is the even when things don't go our way we shouldn't let that discourage us from trying once again, because the only way to achieve something is to never give up on it. The minute you say "I'm done" is the minute that your goals truly become impossible.

And as I said in a previous post, if the one you like is adamant about not liking you back then it simply wasn't meant to be, you move on and try again. The important thing is to never let yourself be discouraged just because it didn't work out the first time.

The problem with Naruto doing this is that he doesn't have the luxury of time to do this all over again with another girl, we're near the end of the series. If it was some sort of love comedy series where the protagonist likes a girl but then starts moving on in the middle of the story and then falls in love with his true love interest then the concept of letting go of the one you love would make a lot of sense. But the problem is that Naruto doesn't fit any of those scenarios. Naruto is an actions series with some romance on the side, the main character still loves the same girl and we're near the end of the story.

The reality is that if Sakura doesn't love Naruto back he'll end up without a love interest by the end of the story. That could cause many impressionable teens to wonder if it's not worth it to be like Naruto when it comes to love since he didn't end up with anyone. And even in the scenario in which he ends with either Hinata or some random girl still remains the problem that the only one Naruto chose to focus his believes about love with was Sakura. It still renders the message of being kind and considerate to the one you love as irrelevant in this story since the only one Naruto was show doing this with was Sakura (I know Naruto is kind to everyone, but I refer to the type in which you put your feelings aside for the sake of making the one you love happy, that's only been done with Sakura). And as consequence renders the message of never giving up a little damaged since we never get to see Naruto struggle to get a girl's love.

Being with Hinata or just some random girl (with no development with Naruto) gives the message that love will come to you easily, therefore you don't have to worry about anything. That is definitely not true. Not every one has the luxury of a Hinata already loving us, some of us have to take the initiative. So even in the scenario of Naruto ending up with someone else it still makes his views about love irrelevant, since he only applied those with Sakura and no one else.

Why does it bother you that achievements include people, I just don't understand. Getting someone to like you back can sometimes be really hard, and when they finally do you can consider that your personal success. Since you didn't give up on trying to charm the one you like then it can be considered an achievement. Not everyone falls in love at first sight, sometimes you have to show your good qualities in order to change the perspective that the one you like has about you.

I think you're misinterpreting achievement with ownership. The message is not about forcing Sakura to love Naruto just because he's a nice guy, otherwise she would've gotten together with Naruto ages ago. The message is that by being kind and considerate with the one you like then they can start falling in love with you as well out of their own free will. It's the choice of the one you like to like you back, but that doesn't mean you should just sit and wait for things to happen. If you truly like someone then you'll treat them well and with the respect they deserve. That's what Naruto wants to let us know.

Sorry, redragon88, for the wait. I just think that your post deserves to have a clear reply and some clarifications from me. Unfortunately, this will take some time. Hope you don't mind.

I don't mind.

Edited by redragon88, 18 October 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Redragon88, you made a great post as usual and this I can agree on.

That's one of the main reason why I like this pairing so much because Naruto isn't forcing Sakura to fall in love. He is only there to be on her side as a friend. Not only that, but he's protecting her because well, he loves her. The part where Sai asked him if he confessed his love shows me that he was not forcing her to love him at all and he didn't make any move on her. You can say about his date request, but was there any moment that he wants to express his love? Whether he noticed or not, Sakura is getting close to him and that's wonderful. It's all about buildup and let the world take you to something horrible or something glorious. Naruto is heading to something glorious. Only problem now is that there's a blockage on the way (Madara, rescuing Sasuke, etc.). That's why we are supporting Naruto. Not just for love, but everything he stands out.

Also, I like to point out that when a guy usually leaves the girl to decide who she likes or let the girl be with the guy she likes in his POV, that guy usually get rewarded in the end. In media, it has been done so many times, because that's the ultimate proof of selfless love. Again, those who allows the person to go with someone he/she believes will be happy with, ends up with the person he/she loves. It's hard to word it out, but let's do an example. Naruto brings back Sasuke. Naruto let Sakura go with Sasuke, so she can be happy according to Naruto. He then walks away to let them have their moment, but Sakura looks at him looking sad. Naruto did the right thing, even if it hurts. Then, Sakura goes to him, leaving Naruto wondering why. In the end, Naruto and Sakura end up together. It's about being selfless and doing the right thing. This message has happened often and I won't be surprised that it will happen here.

[PhenixElite]

Redragon88, you made a great post as usual and this I can agree on.

That's one of the main reason why I like this pairing so much because Naruto isn't forcing Sakura to fall in love. He is only there to be on her side as a friend. Not only that, but he's protecting her because well, he loves her. The part where Sai asked him if he confessed his love shows me that he was not forcing her to love him at all and he didn't make any move on her. You can say about his date request, but was there any moment that he wants to express his love? Whether he noticed or not, Sakura is getting close to him and that's wonderful. It's all about buildup and let the world take you to something horrible or something glorious. Naruto is heading to something glorious. Only problem now is that there's a blockage on the way (Madara, rescuing Sasuke, etc.). That's why we are supporting Naruto. Not just for love, but everything he stands out.

Also, I like to point out that when a guy usually leaves the girl to decide who she likes or let the girl be with the guy she likes in his POV, that guy usually get rewarded in the end. In media, it has been done so many times, because that's the ultimate proof of selfless love. Again, those who allows the person to go with someone he/she believes will be happy with, ends up with the person he/she loves. It's hard to word it out, but let's do an example. Naruto brings back Sasuke. Naruto let Sakura go with Sasuke, so she can be happy according to Naruto. He then walks away to let them have their moment, but Sakura looks at him looking sad. Naruto did the right thing, even if it hurts. Then, Sakura goes to him, leaving Naruto wondering why. In the end, Naruto and Sakura end up together. It's about being selfless and doing the right thing. This message has happened often and I won't be surprised that it will happen here.

And thats exactly what i believe is going to happen after he brings back sasuke.

[Paptala]

And I don't disagree.


I love Sakura, too.


I don't understand that either. Do you see the source of my confusion already?

I feel like we are talking a bit past each other. I am not saying that NS is anti-feminist as a pairing. I just sometimes feel that the fandom acts in a way that is very sexist. You know?

Ah, I see. I misunderstood your original post then, thank you for taking the time to clarify.

They say stuff like: "Sakura is useless, she is not worthy of Naruto, Naruto is so nice to her, why does she hit him, why is she so mean to him? Why does she still have feelings for Sasuke? She is so dumb for having feelings for a guy that tried to kill her! She should pick Naruto, he is always there for her. b*tch, she doesn't deserve Naruto!". You know what I'm saying? So I feel that the fandom tends to judge Sakura for not picking the nice guy Naruto and having feelings for bad guy Sasuke. They really shouldn't judge her for this: It's sexist.

I agree that the fandom's treatment of and reaction to Sakura can definitely come off as sexist, though I don't know that its really intended to be so (at least most of the time). I think if anything, its mostly frustration with Sakura still being in love with Sasuke - not because we don't think that Sakura should be able to love whomever she wants to love, but because her romantic love for Sasuke has been presented as something so negative and detrimental to her character (for example, she never acted like herself around him - hence inner Sakura, and her reaction to him slapping the apples out of her hand being akin to a battered wife - tearful acceptance with no speaking out against such outrageous behavior). Add to that the fact that people don't understand the root of her attachment/affection to Sasuke in the first place; Because they don't understand it, because it doesn't make any sense to them, they get frustrated with it and lash out verbally to express that frustration.

This also isn't something specific to Sakura either: Naruto gets a lot of flak from the fandom for continuing to consider Sasuke a friend as well, given the way that Sasuke has treated him. That's why I don't think of it as being sexist necessarily. A lot of the fandom feel that BOTH Naruto and Sakura need to move on from Sasuke because of the horrible way he treats them.

As for her "not deserving Naruto", I'll fully admit those claims anger me as well. From my understanding of the manga, there is no one more deserving than Sakura of Naruto's love. She has grown past her original ignorance in early part one (because it was ignorance, not the cruelty some try to make it out to be) into an incredibly selfless care for Naruto and his well-being. Even by the beginning of the chuunin exams (in the 40s) Sakura is willing to quit the exam in order to preserve Naruto's "impossible" dream. She has been the one most consistently by his side, even when he is perverted, rude, pigheaded, or any of the above.

I myself fully believe that Sakura has been just as big of an emotional support for Naruto after Sasuke left as he was for her. She was there to remind Naruto that she was still with him, and that he wasn't alone, even if Sasuke had left them. Their interaction after the Kakuzu fight at the hospital leads me to believe that Naruto feels this way as well. Her actions at the summit just cemented those beliefs for me, because she was acting so incredibly selflessly. Everything she did at the summit, that she got flak for from just about everyone was meant for Naruto's best interest. She was fully prepared for him (her biggest emotional support, and a very close friend) to hate her in order to do what she felt was best for him.

So in a way Kishi sending a message like "guys and girls, you are not entitled to anyone's love" would be a welcome message, no?

1. I think that message has already been sent though. Lee, for instance, as I mentioned earlier, has been a great guy to Sakura, and even recently restated that he would risk his life to protect her in the war. But his love has shown no signs of being reciprocated at all.

Or with Jiraiya and Tsunade - she never returned his love (when he was alive at least). Or Obito and Rin - Obito was great to her, and she never reciprocated his love - she was still in love with Kakashi even after learning of Obito's true feelings for her.

2. If it were going to be an open ending, or Naruto with an original character, than that would be alright to send that message with him. But if the alternative is NH and SS, I feel like those two pairings are sending a poor message to readers in return:

With SasuSaku, its shows Sakura remaining with Sasuke even though he treats her incredibly poorly, railroads over her emotionally, and tried to kill her without reason or remorse. Sakura even said in her confession that she thought he hated her and he never talked to her. Sakura was subservient in that relationship - not an equal like she should have been. The way she allowed Sasuke to treat her was awful, especially in the end of part one.

With NaruHina, it shows that its okay for the guy to ignore you most of the time, and that its okay to completely disregard the guy's feelings. Hinata is so focused on her own feelings for Naruto that she doesn't stop to think about Naruto's feelings at all. Her opinion of her self-worth is also built far too much on Naruto's opinion of her. Hinata revolves around Naruto, while he barely pays her any mind.

Any message of "you're not entitled to anyone's love" would be lost in the negative messages being sent by the above two pairings in my opinion.

Edited by Paptala, 18 October 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[redragon88]

Any message of "you're not entitled to anyone's love" would be lost in the negative messages being sent by the above two pairings in my opinion.

It's a good message to have in some stories, but Naruto shouldn't be one of them.

The hero Naruto is meant to overcome everything, it can't just be divided into personal preferences. Naruto needs to achieve everything he wished for so that the message of never giving up is properly conveyed. It can't be that he achieved some things but had to let go of others. That would completely break the original message, or at the very least damage it a lot.

Sometimes it's important to keep consistency within the themes that are trying to be communicated. It's like you said Paptala, some would prefer that Naruto forgets about Sasuke because of how he treated him, and there are some stories that would actually make this concept look perfectly reasonable. Some stories show the concept of betrayal and how you deal with it by realizing that the person that betrayed you was never your friend in the first place and therefore you should forget about that person and realize that you already have good friends that support you all around you.

So another way to have written the story of Naruto could've been with him slowly learning to let go of Sasuke while realizing how much the people of Konoha already care about him, therefore giving him the strength to take out Sasuke since Naruto didn't need to depend on him anymore thanks to the support of Konoha. But that's not the route Kishi decided to use, he wanted to use the concept of unbreakable bonds, which is why Naruto still care a lot for Sasuke despite everything.

The same applies with the romance. It's all about not giving up, fighting for what you want. The same concept applied to Sasuke must also be applied to Sakura in order to keep the main message intact.

If it's really necessary for the concept of learning to let go to be in the story then it can be easily used with Hinata. She's in love with Naruto, but if Naruto ends up with Sakura she'll have to accept it, be happy for him and then move on. In all honesty that message could be better conveyed with her since she's not the main character, therefore the main themes don't have to be represented with her. Since Naruto is the hero he must fulfill the message that is trying to be communicated: never giving up and determination makes for success.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Or with Jiraiya and Tsunade - she never returned his love (when he was alive at least). Or Obito and Rin - Obito was great to her, and she never reciprocated his love - she was still in love with Kakashi even after learning of Obito's true feelings for her.

I think you should clarify what never being reciprocated is, because rin show caring feelings for obito, it's shown that she give him encouragement and other things to him, i think this is a sign of love too, she was still in love with kakashi until he rejected her, and told her about obito's feelings and stuff, well she died but it was obvios that if obito was still alive and they both were well they would get along.

the difference between jira tsu and obito/rin//naru/saku is because jiraya was an hermit and both had "different lives" tsunade had her boyfriend and stuff while jiraya was an traveler, and plus kishi didnt show her giving encouragement and stuff to jiraya when they were both younger.

Edited by dovahkiin, 18 October 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[Paptala]

It's a good message to have in some stories, but Naruto shouldn't be one of them.

The hero Naruto is meant to overcome everything, it can't just be divided into personal preferences. Naruto needs to achieve everything he wished for so that the message of never giving up is properly conveyed. It can't be that he achieved some things but had to let go of others. That would completely break the original message, or at the very least damage it a lot.

Sometimes it's important to keep consistency within the themes that are trying to be communicated. It's like you said Paptala, some would prefer that Naruto forgets about Sasuke because of how he treated him, and there are some stories that would actually make this concept look perfectly reasonable. Some stories show the concept of betrayal and how you deal with it by realizing that the person that betrayed you was never your friend in the first place and therefore you should forget about that person and realize that you already have good friends that support you all around you.

So another way to have written the story of Naruto could've been with him slowly learning to let go of Sasuke while realizing how much the people of Konoha already care about him, therefore giving him the strength to take out Sasuke since Naruto didn't need to depend on him anymore thanks to the support of Konoha. But that's not the route Kishi decided to use, he wanted to use the concept of unbreakable bonds, which is why Naruto still care a lot for Sasuke despite everything.

The same applies with the romance. It's all about not giving up, fighting for what you want. The same concept applied to Sasuke must also be applied to Sakura in order to keep the main message intact.

If it's really necessary for the concept of learning to let go to be in the story then it can be easily used with Hinata. She's in love with Naruto, but if Naruto ends up with Sakura she'll have to accept it, be happy for him and then move on. In all honesty that message could be better conveyed with her since she's not the main character, therefore the main themes don't have to be represented with her. Since Naruto is the hero he must fulfill the message that is trying to be communicated: never giving up and determination makes for success.

Great post - I agree that Naruto really isn't a story where that theme is likely to be portrayed/embodied by the main character. It could be, but given Kishi's past writing, I don't find it very probable at all.

From a purely literary standpoint, Naruto has been set up to succeed in the areas of life where those who came before him failed and romance is one of those areas. Given that he hasn't shown any romantic interest in anyone but Sakura, Hinata would indeed be a much better candidate for this theme. Even though her romantic feelings for Naruto have inspired her to change herself, as I said before, she is basing far too much of her own self-worth on Naruto's opinion of her, and she focuses on literally nothing else but her feelings for Naruto (bar perhaps some of her appearances in the Chuunin Exams).

Naruto's romantic feelings have never been shown as anything detrimental to his character, in contrast (barring his first attempt to trick Sakura into thinking less of Sasuke in chapter 3). His feelings have been portrayed as selfless, and giving him inspiration. He doesn't revolve around his feelings for Sakura, and he doesn't let it affect his self respect at all (basically, he'll stand his ground against Sakura if the situation is serious enough and he feels that he in the right, just as Sakura will - the summit showed that even arguing, they will still each other out and will assert their own beliefs/opinions - acting as equals).

Thus, both Hinata and Sakura would undergo much more significant character development to move past their romantic interests (one of whom barely pays attention to her, and the other whom has treated her incredibly poorly without care or remorse; and neither of whom return anything remotely resembling romantic feelings) and believing more in themselves, than Naruto would (as his feelings for Sakura are not detrimental to his character in the same way that the two girls' feeling have been portrayed).

I think you should clarify what never being reciprocated is, because rin show caring feelings for obito, it's shown that she give him encouragement and other things to him, i think this is a sign of love too, she was still in love with kakashi until he rejected her, and told her about obito's feelings and stuff, well she died but it was obvios that if obito was still alive and they both were well they would get along.

I haven't seen any evidence that Rin returned Obito's feelings, especially given that she confessed to Kakashi after learning about Obito's feelings for her. She definitely cared about him, but nothing to show that it was romantic in nature.

She certainly could have development romantic feelings for him (or perhaps even realized romantic feelings for him) afterwards off panel, but there's nothing saying so one way or another.

the difference between jira tsu and obito/rin//naru/saku is because jiraya was an hermit and both had "different lives" tsunade had her boyfriend and stuff while jiraya was an traveler, and plus kishi didnt show her giving encouragement and stuff to jiraya when they were both younger.

But that's exactly the point - Jiraiya loved Tsunade, and was good to her from what we've seen, but Tsunade was with someone else - Dan. Jiraiya respected Tsunade's feelings on the matter, and didn't push her during that time (and likely for a long while afterwards, given that Jiraiya had to go so far as to track her down). He gave her space.

Edited by Paptala, 18 October 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I agree that the fandom's treatment of and reaction to Sakura can definitely come off as sexist, though I don't know that its really intended to be so (at least most of the time).

It's really important to realize that intention is pretty much meaningless. People can say racist, sexist, homophobic and otherwise bigoted things without ever meaning to hurt anyone and without realizing that the things they say and do are bigoted in the first place. "Intent isn't magic." (link is not really that relevant to our conversation but I included it if anyone's interested to know more.)

This also isn't something specific to Sakura either: Naruto gets a lot of flak from the fandom for continuing to consider Sasuke a friend as well, given the way that Sasuke has treated him. That's why I don't think of it as being sexist necessarily. A lot of the fandom feel that BOTH Naruto and Sakura need to move on from Sasuke because of the horrible way he treats them.

Sure. I would say, though, that Sakura receives a lot more criticism and bashing for this. She also receives a lot of gendered abuse from fans, gets called b*tch and so on. Naruto also gets a bit of similar response from fans of Hinata/Naruto pairing but I've never seen them being as vicious and vile about it as Sakura's haters and critics. Mainly HN fans just say that Hinata is such a sweet girl and why can't Naruto, that silly thing, realize this and so on.

As for her "not deserving Naruto", I'll fully admit those claims anger me as well. From my understanding of the manga, there is no one more deserving than Sakura of Naruto's love. She has grown past her original ignorance in early part one (because it was ignorance, not the cruelty some try to make it out to be) into an incredibly selfless care for Naruto and his well-being. Even by the beginning of the chuunin exams (in the 40s) Sakura is willing to quit the exam in order to preserve Naruto's "impossible" dream. She has been the one most consistently by his side, even when he is perverted, rude, pigheaded, or any of the above. I myself fully believe that Sakura has been just as big of an emotional support for Naruto after Sasuke left as he was for her. She was there to remind Naruto that she was still with him, and that he wasn't alone, even if Sasuke had left them. Their interaction after the Kakuzu fight at the hospital leads me to believe that Naruto feels this way as well. Her actions at the summit just cemented those beliefs for me, because she was acting so incredibly selflessly. Everything she did at the summit, that she got flak for from just about everyone was meant for Naruto's best interest.

I agree. For me, Sakura has never really needed to redeem herself or anything of the like. She has had moments of immaturity, shallowness and has been mean to people but she has always been a good girl at heart. She has supported Naruto and been a loyal friend. It seems to me that some parts of the fandom need her to get over Sasuke and fall for Naruto to make up for her "past mistakes". That only by giving up Sasuke can she finally stop being immature and shallow and learn to stand up for herself. And that if in the end Sakura still loves Sasuke, all her character development is undone and she is just one of his mindless fangirls again. This is the attitude I tried to describe with my first post. This attitude combined with the "not deserving Naruto" is, IMO, very sexist and horrible. It says "Sakura should drop everything else in her life, all her dreams and goals and give herself to Naruto, not that the mindless b*tch really deserves him".

She was fully prepared for him (her biggest emotional support, and a very close friend) to hate her in order to do what she felt was best for him.

You mean the part where she was willing to kill Sasuke?

But if the alternative is NH and SS, I feel like those two pairings are sending a poor message to readers in return:

Well, this is getting pretty boring because, again, I agree. SS, in particular, has so many problematic parts that even I, who am a shipper of it, sometimes don't want it to become canon. I feel, though, that it is a matter that good writing can fix. Like you go on to demonstrate, many pairings in Naruto can have some problematic parts and can potentially send a bad message. It's a matter of personal preference which ones you would be able to tolerate.

I personally haven't really got that big problem with Sasuke's past abusive behavior and don't feel that it makes him forever the wrong person for Sakura. In this series so many people do so many vile things and are still forgiven almost instantly as long as they convert after the Naruto treatment and join the good guy team. Gaara, Itachi, even Nagato who killed Jiraiya... Naruto has already forgiven Sasuke, and Sasuke was just as bad to Naruto as he was to Sakura. Gaara tried to kill Team 7, killed many people, tried to destroy Konoha, was a murderous lunatic. And Naruto considers him an important friend, Sakura never seems to remember that once upon a time Gaara tried to kill her. So say Sasuke makes a change and somehow redeems himself. Why hold his past crimes against him? No one else in this series ever gets held accountable for anything, it seems to me. I don't think that Sasuke's abusiveness will stop Kishi making SS canon. Considering how Naruto and Itachi still champion Sasuke and how Sakura regained her faith in Sasuke's redemption during the summit arc, I think Kishi really intends to say that Sasuke should be forgiven by all. Whether it is a good message, well, we can, and do have, heated debates about that.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 18 October 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[PhenixElite]

Well, this is getting pretty boring because, again, I agree. SS, in particular, has so many problematic parts that even I, who am a shipper of it, sometimes don't want it to become canon. I feel, though, that it is a matter that good writing can fix. Like you go on to demonstrate, many pairings in Naruto can have some problematic parts and can potentially send a bad message. It's a matter of personal preference which ones you would be able to tolerate.

I personally haven't really got that big problem with Sasuke's past abusive behavior and don't feel that it makes him forever the wrong person for Sakura. In this series so many people do so many vile things and are still forgiven almost instantly as long as they convert after the Naruto treatment and join the good guy team. Gaara, Itachi, even Nagato who killed Jiraiya... Naruto has already forgiven Sasuke, and Sasuke was just as bad to Naruto as he was to Sakura. Gaara tried to kill Team 7, killed many people, tried to destroy Konoha, was a murderous lunatic. And Naruto considers him an important friend, Sakura never seems to remember that once upon a time Gaara tried to kill her. So say Sasuke makes a change and somehow redeems himself. Why hold his past crimes against him? No one else in this series ever gets held accountable for anything, it seems to me. I don't think that Sasuke's abusiveness will stop Kishi making SS canon. Considering how Naruto and Itachi still champion Sasuke and how Sakura regained her faith in Sasuke's redemption during the summit arc, I think Kishi really intends to say that Sasuke should be forgiven by all. Whether it is a good message, well, we can, and do have, heated debates about that.

Hmmmm..... I always thought this is a NaruSaku Fanpage.

I think im wrong.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I haven't seen any evidence that Rin returned Obito's feelings, especially given that she confessed to Kakashi after learning about Obito's feelings for her. She definitely cared about him, but nothing to show that it was romantic in nature.

She certainly could have development romantic feelings for him (or perhaps even realized romantic feelings for him) afterwards off panel, but there's nothing saying so one way or another.

But that's exactly the point - Jiraiya loved Tsunade, and was good to her from what we've seen, but Tsunade was with someone else - Dan. Jiraiya respected Tsunade's feelings on the matter, and didn't push her during that time (and likely for a long while afterwards, given that Jiraiya had to go so far as to track her down). He gave her space.

We had plenty of it, i'm do nto say off panel in my arguments but on the kakashi gaiden ending while kakashi and minato were having a talk she was there laone looking at teh stars thinking about Obito.
This was romantic because she realized those feelings too late, and she did only it because of kakashi.

Second, about jiraya i think you get the wrong picture jiraya did not give her space it was tsunade alone who closed her heart and started travelling around the world too, jiraya did not push not because of Dan or whatever nut mostly because he did not wanted to bring pain to her and she view herself as cursed.

This is not offscreen.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

redragon88:

That is a very important message that everyone must learn through life in order to become a better person, I completely agree with it. Although it kinda bothers me a little that you're only specifying the men as the ones that must respect the decisions. You're not implying that women are allowed to disregard a guy's decision of not liking them back, are you?

Nope, I'm not. To be perfectly honest, I have never felt that guys are treated in an entitled way by girls. Not to the same extent as girls are treated by men, anyway. But no, women aren't really allowed to do that either.

People must learn the importance of letting go and it genuinely serves for good storytelling, but as I as in my previous post Naruto is not meant to be one of those stories when you look at the overall message of not giving up that has been transmitted throughout the entirety of the manga. The story of Naruto is of how this boy achieved the impossible just out of pure determination all while never compromising his morality. For the story and message to be properly conveyed in this story Naruto must get together with Sakura.

I completely agree with your statement, we can't always have what we want. The message of Naruto is not about getting what we want simply because we try hard enough. The message is the even when things don't go our way we shouldn't let that discourage us from trying once again, because the only way to achieve something is to never give up on it. The minute you say "I'm done" is the minute that your goals truly become impossible.

Do you honestly think that all that Naruto has achieved will become meaningless if he does not get Sakura? He has become so powerful, he has converted Gaara and Nagato back to the Team Good, given hope to Tsunade... Most likely he will also rescue Sasuke from his own trip to destruction and become Hokage. I think his track record is pretty impressive like that. "Losing" Sakura (she will still be friend even if she won't love him back romantically, so it's not like he really even loses her) won't, IMO, transform Naruto into complete and utter failure.

Why does it bother you that achievements include people, I just don't understand.

Well, I guess it's because women have been actual property to men in the past. Still, in the 21th century in the western world many people believe that men should be heads of household and have the ultimate say in relationship. Have you been following the news lately? About Reddit and creepshots and all that? There are people out there actually saying that men have *the right* to take pics of women without our permission and put those pics online for enjoyment of other men. Free speech, you see, gives them this right. They are completely ignoring the rights of women. No one of those redditors actually stopped to consider how women would feel about being on creepshots. I guess I just feel that this "achieving the girl of your dreams" just falls right next to creepshots and submissive housewives: every one of these situations seems to ignore dreams and desires of women to make dreams and desires of men come true.

The message is that by being kind and considerate with the one you like then they can start falling in love with you as well out of their own free will.

The free will bit is not really get out of jail card. Not many movies, for example, dare force the woman to choose the "right man". She will just be judged, by characters in the movie and by audiences watching, to be shallow, manipulative user if she does not fall in love with the designated hero. It's sort of the audience reaction that makes this trope horrible. Does that make sense?

If you truly like someone then you'll treat them well and with the respect they deserve. That's what Naruto wants to let us know.

This is a good message. I guess I will get to typing that reply to your earlier posts.

[redragon88]

Well, this is getting pretty boring because, again, I agree. SS, in particular, has so many problematic parts that even I, who am a shipper of it, sometimes don't want it to become canon. I feel, though, that it is a matter that good writing can fix. Like you go on to demonstrate, many pairings in Naruto can have some problematic parts and can potentially send a bad message. It's a matter of personal preference which ones you would be able to tolerate.

I personally haven't really got that big problem with Sasuke's past abusive behavior and don't feel that it makes him forever the wrong person for Sakura. In this series so many people do so many vile things and are still forgiven almost instantly as long as they convert after the Naruto treatment and join the good guy team. Gaara, Itachi, even Nagato who killed Jiraiya... Naruto has already forgiven Sasuke, and Sasuke was just as bad to Naruto as he was to Sakura. Gaara tried to kill Team 7, killed many people, tried to destroy Konoha, was a murderous lunatic. And Naruto considers him an important friend, Sakura never seems to remember that once upon a time Gaara tried to kill her. So say Sasuke makes a change and somehow redeems himself. Why hold his past crimes against him? No one else in this series ever gets held accountable for anything, it seems to me. I don't think that Sasuke's abusiveness will stop Kishi making SS canon. Considering how Naruto and Itachi still champion Sasuke and how Sakura regained her faith in Sasuke's redemption during the summit arc, I think Kishi really intends to say that Sasuke should be forgiven by all. Whether it is a good message, well, we can, and do have, heated debates about that.

Oh, so you ship SS. No wonder we got so pumped up while discussing with you. It's always nice to have someone with an alternate view who also likes to have a nice discussion.

I do believe that Sasuke's redemption serves as good story telling. It tells us to always believe that there's good in people no matter how dark they seem to have become. But when it comes to pairings and which becomes canon, I could really care less of Sasuke's emotional state or how he treated Sakura. Sasuke could've been prince charming and treated Sakura like a princess, my points on why Naruto should end up with Sakura still stand.

How Sasuke has treated Sakura doesn't even come into the equation for me. It's all about the message of never giving up and being true to your convictions. Besides, Sakura shouldn't choose Naruto just because Sasuke became evil, that's why her confession to Naruto went so horribly wrong. She should choose Naruto because of how he is, despite her views of Sasuke. Sakura should be with Naruto not because Sasuke pushed her away with his hate, but because Naruto brought her in with his love.

If this manga was about Sakura's journey then it would be a very high possibility that she would get together with Sasuke. But this story is about Naruto and how he overcomes everything, that's why I believe he'll be together with Sakura by the end.

From a storytelling standpoint the message that a story tries to transmit is communicated through the main character's actions, and so far the main message has been that never giving up while staying true to who you are will lead to success in what you do, even if the road to it is hard. Sakura being together with Naruto is simply to be a reflection of that message, and so is saving Sasuke and becoming Hokage.

Naruto is the one bearing the responsibility of the story's message, not Sakura or Hinata, so in order to get that message across in it's fullness Naruto should end up with Sakura. If he doesn't then the message looses one of it's branch, making it slowly collapse, thus diminishing its strength.

EDIT:

redragon88:
Do you honestly think that all that Naruto has achieved will become meaningless if he does not get Sakura? He has become so powerful, he has converted Gaara and Nagato back to the Team Good, given hope to Tsunade... Most likely he will also rescue Sasuke from his own trip to destruction and become Hokage. I think his track record is pretty impressive like that. "Losing" Sakura (she will still be friend even if she won't love him back romantically, so it's not like he really even loses her) won't, IMO, transform Naruto into complete and utter failure.

Of course not, he'll still be the coolest and most awesome mofo in this series.

Just because he doesn't get Sakura doesn't mean all of his achievement will become meaningless, they still stand. It's not about Naruto becoming a failure, he wouldn't, even if Sakura doesn't love him. It's about the damage the main message in the story will get from Naruto not achieving one of his dreams.

People who let themselves be influence by the story, especially young teens, will get the strength to try and do many things. But what do you think will happen when it comes to love? In the worst case some might feel discouraged to even try since it also didn't work out with Naruto. Even though they might feel they can achieve many things, like Naruto did, they might freeze when it come to love since that's the one thing that Naruto couldn't fulfill with his believes. I'm not say that would definitely happen, but the risk of it occurring exist. And that makes the message of not giving up somewhat broken.

The story is meant to be told in such a way that lets you understand that adopting Naruto's believes will bring about success in all aspects of you life, and that must also include love since it's an important event that many want to experience. It shouldn't be that you can take Naruto's believes on everything expect when it comes to love, excluding love just makes you discouraged of even trying things Naruto's way.

Edited by redragon88, 18 October 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

redragon88:

Okay, so, I actually read through your posts again and realized that I already sort of addressed many of your points so maybe this post won't be so long after all. Damn.

You talk a lot about how Naruto has to get Sakura to truly surpass the previous generation and to be a true success. Do you honestly think that all that Naruto has achieved will become meaningless if he does not get Sakura? I guess it will once again come down to personal opinion. For me, the number one Naruto-has-to-be-successful-in-this is getting Sasuke back. That is being set up as his ultimate test, the one thing everything else such as becoming Hokage will depend on. For me, Naruto not getting Sakura would be only a small "failure" among a string of greater success stories.

So far the story has been pretty adamant in telling us that Naruto will always love Sakura and will work hard to make he smile. Maybe Kishi could suddenly start making Naruto pay attention to Hinata, but in all honesty, wouldn't it look just a little forced? At the very least with Sakura, even though she still likes Sasuke, we have seen how she has come to care a lot about Naruto, so her finally falling in love with him wouldn't look like something out of left field.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You know that people who ship NH disagree. This is really in the end a matter of preference. I agree that NS has more development than NH. Ginny and Harry from Harry Potter, IMO, had very little development and substance in their relationship but they still became canon. It's like: Kishi promised to wrap up romance storylines but he didn't promise to do it well.

I'm not so interested in talking about portrayls of NH or SS this time, though. The point I wanted to make was that I personally have always felt a little uncomfortable with NS because I've felt that it can be shipped in a sexist way, particularly in a sexist way that I personally couldn't look past. For some reason "Nice Guys" brand of sexism and women being treated as goals is more triggering to me than outright abusive fictional relationship. I absolutely understand that not everybody agrees with me or if someone sees abusive relationship as worse. Please note that I'm talking about fictional people in fictional relationship. Real life is of course very different thing and I don't for one second think that woman should get back together with her abusive husband (not that their relationship is any of my business).

I still don't get where you got the idea that I think Naruto is entitled to Sakura because he was nice to her. Naruto is not entitled to anything. If Sakura didn't want to be kind to Naruto it would look rude but she would be under no obligation to be nice to him and she wouldn't owe anything to him.

Naruto being entitled to Sakura because "he was nice to her" is a reference to the Nice Guys. Do you know what that means, "the Nice Guys"? Your initial post just gave me the feeling that you were talking about Sakura like she was just an object, just a goal to Naruto to achieve. I guess in my mind that fused with the Nice Guys phenomena and I ended up confusing them. I didn't mean to imply that you in particular were a Nice Guy. Sorry. I should have chosen my word better.

Anyway. The initial idea that I wanted to object with my first post was pretty much as I already replied to Paptala. I don't like the way some people in this fandom view Sakura and don't like it very much when I feel that Sakura's own feelings are completely dismissed so that Naruto can have his dream girl.

Like I said earlier:

Some parts of fandom like to say stuff like: "Sakura is useless, she is not worthy of Naruto, Naruto is so nice to her, why does she hit him, why is she so mean to him? Why does she still have feelings for Sasuke? She is so dumb for having feelings for a guy that tried to kill her! She should pick Naruto, he is always there for her. b*tch, she doesn't deserve Naruto!". I feel that the fandom tends to judge Sakura for not picking the nice guy Naruto and having feelings for bad guy Sasuke. They really shouldn't judge her for this: It's sexist. It seems to me that some parts of the fandom need her to get over Sasuke and fall for Naruto to make up for her "past mistakes". That only by giving up Sasuke can she finally stop being immature and shallow and learn to stand up for herself. And that if in the end Sakura still loves Sasuke, all her character development is undone and she is just one of his mindless fangirls again. This is the attitude I tried to describe with my first post. This attitude combined with the "not deserving Naruto" is, IMO, very sexist and horrible. It says "Sakura should drop everything else in her life, all her dreams and goals and give herself to Naruto, not that the mindless b*tch really deserves him".

How would you feel about Sakura if she rejected Naruto in the end? If she chose Sasuke instead? Would you view her in any of those ways I tried to describe above? Would you think that her character development had come to nothing, for example?

Okay. It's getting pretty late and I'm really not at my best at this time of the night. Did I make any sense at all? Let me know if you feel I didn't address some of your points. I'll try to reply to tomorrow again, if anything comes up.

Here are some links to that Nice Guy thing I was talking about. A lot of it actually is a really good description of Naruto fandom. Naruto fandom as the Nice Guy, Sakura as the b*tch friend and Sasuke as the jerk boyfriend.

* http://www.shakesvil...s-nice-guy.html

* http://geekfeminism....ce_guy_syndrome

* http://hated-charact...com/458268.html (The comments of this one are worth reading.)

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 18 October 2012 - 11:07 PM.