831 replies to this topic

[Nate River]

Well, Nate, you said it yourself. So what? So what if Naruto thinks Obito was a cool guy? So what if he calls Sasuke a great friend?

You quote me, but change the context. The "so what" is a question as to why does Naruto saying that impact this. You try to offer that characterization of Sasuke as a defense to this crap. How is it a defense? I thought that line was junk too. Naruto's a horrible judge of character, but since Kishimoto controls the universe there are not consequences for it.

I am not asking why we should care at all, which is the context you place it it.

Everything you have basically said I can basically apply the same logic to Naruto's view on Sasuke. The difference here is that Sasuke is probably going to live, be accepted back, and not get any recourse what so ever, gain alot of respect for nothing, and get a girl to love him despite treating her like crap. Obito got everything in death meanwhile Sasuke gets everything in life for no reason what so ever. Banishment from Konoha? Pfff....not like he wanted to stay there in the first place.

So you can apply it Sasuke. You still haven't explained why that has any bearing on Obito. I don't know how compounding one mistake with a second one makes anything better.

I suppose if I thought Sasuke deserved what I know Kishimoto is going to do with him then you might have something, but I don't.

All you do is talk about Sasuke when trying to defend Obito because you can't defend Obito on him merits.

This is what I like to call humorous irony because in reality me and you are in the same boat, just facing different directions. Also, you kind of knew this was coming. Just like how I know what Sasuke's end is going to be regardless of personal opinion.

"We are nothing like God. Not only are our powers limited, we are sometimes driven to become the devil himself."
-Wolfwood. Trigun.

Oh, I expected it. I knew he'd go down saving the hero. I would not have been thrilled but I wouldn't be nearly as irritated as I am if Kishimoto hadn't written it as if Obito had died as a valiant hero. He basically pretended the Obito that was around for most of the war arc didn't exist and was completely resolved of any responsibility for what he had done. It's baffling because Obito's character is written as if Obito understands this..and yet, Naruto says that?

Read sushu's posts. I think that would have been better. Naruto can acknowledge and be appreciative of his sacrifice without completely validating him like this.

[FireFox]

Ero senin

How can a certain character be so legendary!!!

Because he's the J-Man enough said

[Nate River]

@ns.Believe.it:
 
That "love too much" crap had to be one of the biggest BS in this manga. It's like he gave the Uchihas an emotional disease so you don't have to blame them for anything. Bleh.
 
I really shouldn't try to understand the Uchihas lol, but if we're going to take about motivation, I still say Obito had the most pathetic excuse out of them all. At least when Sasuke's being an ass or was going through his dark, evil phase I don't have to facepalm and say "wtf's wrong with him he became this way for such stupid reasons."
 
I won't bother defending Sasuke for not killing as many people as heartlessly as Obito did. It doesn't matter if Obito's death count is higher. All of us know the only reason Sasuke didn't kill more people in the way of his goals during the Kage Summit Arc was because he didn't get the chance.

Kishimoto wants the turmoil, but doesn't want to deal with its consequences.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I will still cald is words stupid is like Kushina and minato never die, the village never blame the Uchihas because of the Kyuubi, Jiraiya never die, because Neji never Die, because 400.000 people never die in this war, some of Konoha 11 parents never die, Sasuke clan was never murder because the village did not trust them after the kyuubi event so many things that happen where the Obito hands was part of but why is so hard to see that because obirin and narusaku stuff, but with Sasuke yes he is an ass but because off SS some try to see him as worts than Obito. Honestly how in the hell can some come to that conclution.

Worst fact is that on all the chapters bought up so far, flashbacks and etc...
I NEVER SEE THE UCHIHAS BEING PERSECUTED OR PEOPLE LOOKING DOWN AT THE UCHIHA'S NAME AND KISHIMOTO MAKES ME SWALLOW THE FACT THAT THEY WERE PERSECUTED AND HATED BY THE VILLAGE JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE THE POLICE FORCE WHERE'S THE LOGIC BEHIND THIS???????

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 31 July 2014 - 11:21 PM.

[ramenanmitsu]

How come some of you guys are still mad Naruto said that if it seems like Naruto is talking about kid Obito

Where did you get the idea that he was talking about kid Obito? If Naruto didn't think the adult Obito was cool, he wouldn't have been angry when Black Zetsu bad mouthed the adult Obito. Naruto clearly got angry and said, "Don't talk bad about Obito". That clearly was about adult Obito, isn't it?

IF he did talk about kid Obito, then that just increases how crap Naruto's statements are because he is excusing a criminal's actions based on the criminal's dreams as a kid. Maybe, Hitler wanted to lead the country into peace when he was five. So what? Not to mention, I agree with the 2ch users saying that Naruto's statements are nothing but narcissistic self satisfaction. They were saying that he should have said that statement in front of Hinata so she would have given up on him already. Which should be true. Who can keep loving a guy who calls the murderer of your cousin brother cool just because they share the same dream? And worse, on the SAME DAY that cousin brother was killed? (Well thinking of Kishi, it's certainly possible.)

Nobody but Naruto is satisfied with this conclusion. The other guys who fought and died to protect Naruto wouldn't have expected they fought for THIS. But that's okay, they're either dead or in a cocoon so it's not like they can voice their objection.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 31 July 2014 - 11:56 PM.

[sushi.]

Kishi had it once. This is ch. 447. This is the Naruto I admire. Despite his hatred, he doesn't let it take over him, and spares Nagato's life. That is the key to peace, not erasing a human emotion that is completely natural.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Kishi had it once. This is ch. 447. This is the Naruto I admire. Despite his hatred, he doesn't let it take over him, and spares Nagato's life. That is the key to peace, not erasing a human emotion that is completely natural.

 

Yes! This is the Naruto I loved. He was so much more human. Where did he go?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Kishi had it once. This is ch. 447. This is the Naruto I admire. Despite his hatred, he doesn't let it take over him, and spares Nagato's life. That is the key to peace, not erasing a human emotion that is completely natural.

After that Nagato asspulled and revived all the people he'd killed.
Jiraiya's death was blamed on hatred.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 31 July 2014 - 11:57 PM.

[Hiraishin]

After that Nagato asspulled and revived all the people he'd killed.
Jiraiya's death was blamed on hatred.

Yeah, that's when the whole "hatred" thing started to become more significant. You can't blame the characters for their actions, it's because of the cycle of hatred. And Naruto ascribes to this.

[Nate River]

After that Nagato asspulled and revived all the people he'd killed.
Jiraiya's death was blamed on hatred.

Yeah. The sentiment is better, but the event as a whole isn't. Naruto spared him, so what next? Naruto never has to figure that out or defend his decision.

[ns.Believe.It]

Where did you get the idea that he was talking about kid Obito? If Naruto didn't think the adult Obito was cool, he wouldn't have been angry when Black Zetsu bad mouthed the adult Obito. Naruto clearly got angry and said, "Don't talk bad about Obito". That clearly was about adult Obito, isn't it?

IF he did talk about kid Obito, then that just increases how crap Naruto's statements are because he is excusing a criminal's actions based on the criminal's dreams as a kid. Maybe, Hitler wanted to lead the country into peace when he was five. So what? Not to mention, I agree with the 2ch users saying that Naruto's statements are nothing but narcissistic self satisfaction. They were saying that he should have said that statement in front of Hinata so she would have given up on him already. Which should be true. Who can keep loving a guy who calls the murderer of your cousin brother cool just because they share the same dream? And worse, on the SAME DAY that cousin brother was killed? (Well thinking of Kishi, it's certainly possible.)

Nobody but Naruto is satisfied with this conclusion. The other guys who fought and died to protect Naruto wouldn't have expected they fought for THIS. But that's okay, they're either dead or in a cocoon so it's not like they can voice their objection.

Maybe Naruto liked Obito's mask and thought he looked cool when he used to wear it? 

[Nate River]

Nobody but Naruto is satisfied with this conclusion. The other guys who fought and died to protect Naruto wouldn't have expected they fought for THIS. But that's okay, they're either dead or in a cocoon so it's not like they can voice their objection.

Nope. Funny how things always seem to work out when does this. Villain bites anyway, but not before doing something to benefit the heros so everyone conveniently forgets how awful they were. No one knows and with convenient ex post facto defense built right in if they ever find out.

I imagine Kakashi and Sakura are, but mostly because no one his side lets their brain function past TnJ. Whether it's persuasive or defensible, doesn't matter. It's special effect is that after the words exit Naruto's mouth all of his friends brains lose the ability to think, even just a little, about the subject. The just become compliant and sign of on whatever. Because he's Naruto....and that's it I guess.

[ns.Believe.It]

There's no doubt that an angry Naruto is more powerful than his usual self. Probably Kishimoto wanted to get Naruto in a foul mood and have him attack Kaguya and BZ with no holds barred. All of those provoking words from BZ make sense when you think this way. But Kishi couldn't make anything happen to other members of Team 7 so had to make do with Obito.

 

Frankly it sucks that Naruto has to go 'rage mode' for Obito of all people and not for an actual comrade like Neji. But then again the Naruto we saw after Neji's death was so not Naruto and that particular shenanigan was to make Hinata shine. So its safe to say this is not the first time Naruto has been potrayed in a disappointing way.

Edited by ns.Believe.It, 01 August 2014 - 02:30 AM.

[questdrivencollie]

Though I liked the chapter, that is one part that doesn't really make sense. (Naruto saying Obito was cool.) I would hope he meant the young Obitio.

[only Naruto]

I knew something like this could happen. I didn't imagine it would be this bad.

This may be about as close as I get to actually being offended by this manga. The only way I could be moved by this is to forget everything Obito has done. Moreover, I'm not sure what's worse: this chapter or people's reaction to it.

Naruto, at one point, was my favorite characters. I can no longer take him seriously after this. He thinks Obito is the coolest because they share the same dream? He says THAT to the guy who murdered his parents, started a war that has resulted in countless casualties just to capture Naruto, killed Neji to prove a point, let Kyuubi run loose over Konoha, placed an explosive tag on an infant, attempted to goad Yahiko into his blood path, succeed with Nagato, blames Minato as if Minato had no other duties besides his live life, and the coup de'grace...he wants to take everyone's life and agency from them regardless of their connection to his tragedy because HE decided it was in THEIR best interest (and that's the generous reading...he really wanted so he could get his OWN dream). Those people in that tree...yeah Obito killed others and started wars for that.

That guy is cool?

It is one thing for Naruto to forgive Obito from crimes committed against Naruto but Naruto has this ugly habit of doing that on everyone's behalf and constantly getting away with it. I guess it's good that almost everyone is tied to a tree so they didn't have to hear that. Yeah, Naruto thinks the guy that killed your comrades is the coolest.

Taking a hit for Naruto doesn't undo his crimes. I agree with luffy that at least Black Zetsu calls him on it, but it bothers me because I cannot chalk this up the author being oblivious. Are you kidding Kishimoto?

Oh, and he gets to be with Rin. Pennannce? Bah. Punishment? What was that again? Responsibility? I heard of that once. Accountability? Must have been swallowed by that black hole. After all he's done, he still gets what he wanted because in the last few moments of his sorry existence he tried to help undo the tragedy that is largely his fault.

He;s destroyed many lives, but doesn't have to answer for anything (he got to choose his own death and go out a hero). No. He gets rewarded for it.

Completely, indefensible.
 
 


Bad choices don't begin to cover it. He started a war that has resulted in countless deaths. Those are on his hands. His acts against humanity as so atrocious I'm not sure why it matters he didn't kill for those reasons. This is minimization at its worst.
 
 


He doesn't deserve it.
 
 


You can only come to this conclusion by pretend he did something other than what he did. How many evil acts must one commit before the definition applies? I don't care about his intentions because regardless of what they are he's done great damage to the world he lives in. He was willing to do all he did up to this point...what's in his heart applies to more than the last 15 seconds of his life? That he claims did it for people's benefit doesn't mean its suddenly not evil.

This reminds so much of C.S. Lewis's comments on tyranny.
 
 

Dictators often promise their people better lives as those dictators tear them apart.

I don't care if he "wasn't happy." This wasn't a war of necessity and you make it sound like he had no other choice. He absolutely did. He still went to war.
 

Yes, Naruto said that, so what? I'm not sure how that makes this defensible.

No agnst issue? Obito's entire character is one giant ball of angst issues about Rin. He entire character is predicated on that.

A jerk? Neji's dead to prove a point. That's a jerk.

He's far worse than Sasuke. Sasuke's an ass and a terrible person, but that says nothing abut Obito. Deeds matters and Obito's are so much worse right now.

Saying, but "Sasuke" isn't a defense.
 


Yeah, Naruto does. An he's an oblvious idiot for doing so. Anyone can run their mouth. Deeds matter, and up until TnJ all of Obito's suck. Besides, I think his intentions were evil, too. Just because he said he was doing it for their benefit doesn't suddenly make it good.

As for manipulation? Yeah, Madara deserved what he got, but at what point are people responsible for their own choices?

Kishimoto's answer is never. I'm just a little floored so many members agree with him because as far as I can tell the only time they expect people to be held responsible is when their name is Sasuke.'

Results matter. Good intention aren't a cure all.

 

ok . we both know that naruto didnt forgive the obito u mentioned here .but naruto forgave (obito who regret what he did and until his last breathe he consider him self a trash and not worth saving and not only that but trying to do everything he can to help naruto and his friends so that the world wont end (u red all this but naruto lived it and felt it thats why ill go with naruto ) . and i still cant believe that forgiving a person who regret what he did and try to make it up is so wrong now days ? ask your self this . if obito didnt regret what he did  would naruto ever forgive him ? .

 

and i agree with u here that naruto should tell the people the reasons that why he forgave .nagato .obito.  and soon sasuke. . but (i dont know if naruto told the villagers that nagato is in heaven now and he is a hero so if any one talk bad about him or hate him ill kill him. . he kept this to him self as i remember right?)so kishi is trying to tell us that the people who regret are going to heaven or what ever. its the message and he thinks only us the readers should know while  naruto living it cause he is the hero. this . which is wrong. he must explain for   the people who lost those who are dear to them  in the manga .why obito is in heaven.    am with u here in this...

 

and as for sasuke is better than obito . you wouldnt say that if obito didnt stop sasuke from killing team 7 and destroying the leaf village. no one stopped obito . cause they thought he was dead and no one could stop him cause he was stronger than sasuke. . so for me evil sasuke = evil obito except  sasuke was weaker than obito.

 

. 

 

 

Because what he said what stupid and it makes him an hypocrite. No sure if I spell that right.

to say about someone awesome   . because once they were evil and trash . but regret what he did and to make it up by doing heroic things by his own will and still think he is a trash . . its fine to me . cause the people who regret what they did are back to be good again. and if they die after that in a short time because doing heroic act. are great people .   . 

 

I'm not going to argue who's worse, Obito or Sasuke, but I will say this.

 

Whatever Sasuke has done, his motivations for doing evil things and briefly becoming evil were more believable. Itachi killing his family, the belief Itachi always hated him, only killed his family on his whim, left him lonely etc. All of these were justifiable reasons for why Sasuke become what he was and left the village. Even trying to killing Naruto the first time just for  revenge and while of course it was wrong, I can understand became that way.

 

Sasuke deciding to destroy the village, scapegoating the entire blame of what happened to Itachi on ignorant people and ignoring Itachi's own agreement is inexcusable. Maybe he's not like that anymore, but you can't excuse such behavior no matter how miserable he felt and thought his life was a lie. But again, I can understand how he got there and say "Hey, that's a decent background to turn to evil."

 

Why did Obito turn evil? He just saw the girl he loved die, granted by his best friend but it could've been worse. Maybe his relationship with her was important and I do know it extended past Rin (seeing Kakashi break his promise, his team shattered, and seeing it as a product of war), but it's not particularly sympathetic. He didn't even ask questions. As horrible as Sasuke was with his revenge against Konoha, at least he asked for confirmation on it multiple times. Even before deciding to kill Danzo he did this and again with Itachi. I can't say the same for Obito.

 

Maybe it's just me, but an 8-year old boy coming home to find his entire family killed for "petty reasons" while being spat on by his older brother that he was so close only to realize later, after years of hating him and plotting to kill him, that brother loved him and was used as a tool for his birthplace seems like a better influence in becoming evil than losing the girl you loved at 12 over war and a broken promise.

 

. even thou i understands obitos reasons cause to lose the most important person in your life again and watching her die  .after u lost it once cause u died . its a a hard thing too .and i also say to obito i understand why u did it. but i agree with u obito has the lowest reasons compare to sasuke . nagato.and madara . but when u judge between sasuke and obito u only mentioned half of the truth. which is the reasons why they turned evil. and u didnt mention the other half . the reasons that tried to bring them back from the dark .  so its even i think . evil sasuke =evil obito .what u think ?

Kishi had it once. This is ch. 447. This is the Naruto I admire. Despite his hatred, he doesn't let it take over him, and spares Nagato's life. That is the key to peace, not erasing a human emotion that is completely natural.

i might be wrong . but as i remember . this was before nagato do the rebirth no jutsu. .naruto here (heard ) nagatos reasons not his regret. he cant forgive him if he dont regret what he did.  and this is different from the one with obito cause naruto (lived obitos memories which helped him to understand his pain more. and that made him forgive him fast.. so i like the naruto in this pic .but i like the naruto who forgave obito more . cause he is more understanding and more mature. 

[Change]

Where did you get the idea that he was talking about kid Obito? If Naruto didn't think the adult Obito was cool, he wouldn't have been angry when Black Zetsu bad mouthed the adult Obito. Naruto clearly got angry and said, "Don't talk bad about Obito". That clearly was about adult Obito, isn't it?

IF he did talk about kid Obito, then that just increases how crap Naruto's statements are because he is excusing a criminal's actions based on the criminal's dreams as a kid. Maybe, Hitler wanted to lead the country into peace when he was five. So what? Not to mention, I agree with the 2ch users saying that Naruto's statements are nothing but narcissistic self satisfaction. They were saying that he should have said that statement in front of Hinata so she would have given up on him already. Which should be true. Who can keep loving a guy who calls the murderer of your cousin brother cool just because they share the same dream? And worse, on the SAME DAY that cousin brother was killed? (Well thinking of Kishi, it's certainly possible.)

Nobody but Naruto is satisfied with this conclusion. The other guys who fought and died to protect Naruto wouldn't have expected they fought for THIS. But that's okay, they're either dead or in a cocoon so it's not like they can voice their objection.

Well the way you know who explained it, seems like Naruto was referring to the Obito who wanted to become Hokage.

Plus with two other translations, it said Naruto was talking about the Obito who wanted to be Hokage and the only time Obito wanted to be Hokage was when he was a kid.  Like I said, he's remembering the Obito who was good, not the evil one. That's the one he chooses to remember. So I guess 2ch isn't wrong because he's only getting mad because the Obito he's choosing to remember was just like him(liked the girl in team, was untalented to some extant, and wanted to be Hokage)

Edited by TheMagicConch, 01 August 2014 - 03:25 AM.

[only Naruto]

Well the way you know who explained it, seems like Naruto was referring to the Obito who wanted to become Hokage.

Plus with two other translations, it said Naruto was talking about the Obito who wanted to be Hokage and the only time Obito wanted to be Hokage was when he was a kid.  Like I said, he's remembering the Obito who was good, not the evil one. That's the one he chooses to remember. So I guess 2ch isn't wrong because he's only getting mad because the Obito he's choosing to remember was just like him(liked the girl in team, was untalented to some extant, and wanted to be Hokage.

i think when naruto said cool. he said it because the cool kid obito came back fro the darkness and after giving up on his dream. he is holding them again .  and doing heroic act so its both the young and old obito at the same time. ( and naruto wouldnt have said it if BZ didnt push him to say it .)so i understand the people who are mad because they think obito dont deserve to be called even good .because of what he did. but i also understand why naruto said it. as u said its all about how people see it.

[LuckyChi7]

Though I liked the chapter, that is one part that doesn't really make sense. (Naruto saying Obito was cool.) I would hope he meant the young Obitio.

 

Guess we gotta wait till the volume comes out. I just reread 631 in Volume 66 ( which recently came out in the US). So I remember the translations pretty well from Mangapanda when 631 came out after Minato made the girlfriend comment to Naruto.

 

 

631 Mangapanda Translation:

 

Minato: "Thank you for helping Naruto recover, Are you Naruto's girlfriend?"

 

Naruto: "Ummm, Uhm, yeah! That's more or less of it." 

 

 

631 In The Volume From Viz: 

 

Minato: "Thank you for healing Naruto, Are you his girlfriend?" 

 

Naruto: "Umm Hmm Yup! I suppose you could say that"

 

 

So The context in the dialogue isn't too different depending on how you take it, but to me their translation is pretty close to what MangaPanda had when for chapter 631. So I'd probably say the same thing will happen when Viz translates this chapter for Volume 71 whenever that comes out.      

Edited by LuckyChi7, 01 August 2014 - 03:45 AM.

[咲耶姫]

Well the way you know who explained it, seems like Naruto was referring to the Obito who wanted to become Hokage.

Plus with two other translations, it said Naruto was talking about the Obito who wanted to be Hokage and the only time Obito wanted to be Hokage was when he was a kid.  Like I said, he's remembering the Obito who was good, not the evil one. That's the one he chooses to remember. So I guess 2ch isn't wrong because he's only getting mad because the Obito he's choosing to remember was just like him(liked the girl in team, was untalented to some extant, and wanted to be Hokage)

If you're talking about me, let me says this: I never, never implied I was taling about the kid Obito. I only said that the fact he wanted to become Hokage was what makes him cool in the present time. I never said "was cool" I can't do anyhting about the conjuguation, it's litteraly written "Obito (who) wanted to become Hokage... To me... He can only be seen as cool!" It's the present time when he says "can only be seen" and it's clear that he sees him as cool, even now, because he aimed at being Hokage. I don't know where you get the kid Obito thing. 

And that's what the japanese fans are reproaching to Naruto. Just because Obito wanted, at some times in the past, being Hokage just like him, he consider him as cool, even after all the bad things he did. He considers him as cool in the present, no in the past. It's the present Obito that Naruto considers as cool. 

Edited by 咲耶姫, 01 August 2014 - 04:11 AM.

[tricksie]

I really was surprised by Obito expiring the way he did. Soooo anticlimactic. I thought he would somehow save Kakashi's life in the end, thus doing a good turn to his old teammate, then deliver some crucial info that ultimately helped Naruto and his cause. I certainly didn't think it would be the Naruto and Obito show, with the icing on the cake being the final resolution between kid Obito and Rin. Ugh. 

 

Great comments. It's good to be among friends. Originally I came to this site because it was a haven in shipping wars. Now it really helps deal with how warped the manga has become in some respects. Like Nate said up the thread, Kishimoto likes the guise of complex characters and situations, without getting bogged down in the messy details.

 

>>Kishimoto wants the turmoil, but doesn't want to deal with its consequences.

 

So true.