54216 replies to this topic

[DrK]

I don't think Naruto knew all that Gaara did. Hos forgiveness is partly justified. We the readers know because of flashbacks only, that he killed other children in his village. Wonder what their parents think of him now? Hm.
 

Mostly talking narratively, Naruto is way too idealistic to ever support justifiable punishment in any case.

[hisaberpie]

Gaara was one of my favorite characters. Both in part 1 and shippuden. And I think gaaras killing is justified to an extent because his father kept sending assasins after him so of course he would kill in retaliation.

And I think it was mentioned that the seal they used to seal shuukaku inside gaara wasn't a very strong one so shuukakus blood lust may have influenced him as a child.

I think another ending problem is that all the tailed beasts turned out to be good in the end. These tailed beasts are powerful beings capable of wiping out entire villages. It would've been more interesting if some of them were vicious and would've made their jinchurikki all the more admirable for carrying the burden and protecting the village by keeping these beasts contained in their bodies.

But nope, they all get turned into friendly pets of the sage in the end.

[DrK]

Gaara was one of my favorite characters. Both in part 1 and shippuden. And I think gaaras killing is justified to an extent because his father kept sending assasins after him so of course he would kill in retaliation.

I did love the part in the War arc with Gaara where he finds out about his mother. That was moving. I was never moved by any of the kitten with Itachi because Sasuke is such a brat about everything.

[Kagomaru]

I don't think Naruto knew all that Gaara did. Hos forgiveness is partly justified. We the readers know because of flashbacks only, that he killed other children in his village. Wonder what their parents think of him now? Hm.

As for the other people I don't even call it forgiveness. Their sins were brushed off like nothing happened. Naruto wasn't even upset at Kurama after he found out he had killed his parents.

Many protagonists are a beacon of hope no matter what fictional work but honestly I prefer the hero to do it unintentionally. It feels more genuine. I really love Luffy for this. Naruto just tries to be everyone's therapist there's nothing charming about that.

I can understand forgiving Obito and Kurama to a certain extent, but *Orochimaru*?  That bastard experimented on innocent children in his search for immortality, either mentally breaking them to the point that they became his near-fanatical child soldiers, turning them into genetic aberrations, or simply prepping them to become his next host vessel. He murdered his teacher/ Naruto's grandfather figure in cold blood, nearly destroyed the Leaf, *and* was one of the main contributors to Sasuke's descent into insanity and revenge. 

 

And he expresses no remorse for any of his crimes.

 

In a sensible narrative,  Naruto, at the very least, should want to see him imprisoned.  But no, he occasionally meets up with to drink hot tea and chat it up like they've been friends for years. And if that isn't repugnant enough, he gives him permission to continue his experimentation on children.     

 

I actually have a disturbing theory that the only reason Naruto gave Orochimaru a figurative slap on the risk is because he was the Sasuke parallel of his three-man team.

Edited by Kagomaru, 23 May 2018 - 03:52 AM.

[hisaberpie]

I did love the part in the War arc with Gaara where he finds out about his mother. That was moving. I was never moved by any of the kitten with Itachi because Sasuke is such a brat about everything.

I really liked that part too. Hate his new design though.

I don't know what kishimoto was trying to do with sasuke. Is he good? Is he bad? Neither of them could make up their minds.

I feel a bit sorry for sasuke though. Itachi was a horrible big brother, he shouldn't have been redeemed like he was.

[DrK]

I actually have a disturbing theory that the only reason Naruto gave Orochimaru a figurative slap on the risk is because he was the Sasuke parallel of his three-man team.

Naruto should've just bribed the guards and showed up in the cell where Sasuke was being held at the end and told Sasuke that he could have one night to do whatever he wanted to him. Get it out of his system. Then he could marry Sakura and be happy instead of spending the rest of his life making himself and everyone around him miserable because he has latent urges that he never got a chance to express.

Edited by DrK, 23 May 2018 - 12:06 AM.

[RulesofNature]

I also hated the fact that they tried to say Hinata was always there for Naruto but eventually he forgot about her but clearly that wasn't the case when they were younger. Yes, she saw the abuse but she hid the shadows which makes the whole situation worse for her.

 

In almost any other story, Hinata would have been called out. Hell, the SD series called her a stalker. Also, such a strong bond between NaruHina if Naruto just forgot about it like that.

[VanitasDS76491]

Plus even when she was alive, when we thought Obito died that Rin seemed to have begun to fall harder for him since she learned he loved her from Kakashi, even when Kakashi rejected her confession because he felt he didn't deserve it for wanting to abandon her.

By all rights obito should have died when the rock crushed him, cause ya that kills people in an instant even if it's half there body.

[VanitasDS76491]

This reminds me of what Nostalgia Critic said about Dr. Suess
If the video doesn't work, go to the 12minutes 34 second mark and watch from therehttps://youtu.be/F0_W6gomFA8?t=12m34s
"Dr Suess got popular because he wrote what he wanted to see, not what focus groups wanted to see. Have you ever considered the possibility that people don't know what is best for them?
That sums up the Naruto fandom. Kishimoto or whoever thought "this was best" only to realize that it isn't., Trying to please the more vocal group instead of making a natural progressing story is what causes more downfalls in stories than ever before.
NS would most likely pissed off the radical NH and SS fans, but from a majority standpoint the fandom would have loved it or at leasta ccepted it saying "Yeah, that makes sense. At least the story is good even if I am a big disappoint I didn't get exactly what I wanted." Now, noone likes the new Naruto and the story all because "NH and SS had to be canon." I will never stop saying this. "NH and SS caused the downfall of Naruto." People can make claim otherwise, but this is truly what caused the major downfall. Instead of focusin on important aspects of the story, they gave all focus to "Look how important Hinata is" and derailed the entire point.
And I will still stand by that the proof is in the pudding when you look at Naruto the Last. If NH didn't cause the downfall, then why was this movie so Hinata-centric? If the story was not about Hinata or pairings, then why does Naruto the Last even exist in the first place?
 
 

The problem with fanfics now is that any NH and SS fanfic in existence that will forever be created by NH and SS fans would be them denying the canon that has been given to them. Yes, we openly deny the canon and we do say so proudly, but when these people say you have to "accept the canon," only to write their own fanfiction on how THEY wanted it to play out? Well....
In the words of Asuka in SAO abridged.

 
 

NS is probably, when you think about it, the greatest and most tragic love story ever told. Even to this day, Naruto and Sakura feel more comfortable and more incharacter around each other than they do around anyone else.
 
 

 
It was a tidal wave of damage control.

Actually that critic quote from cat in the hat about focus group is spot on cause yang that's what happened with naruto plus those chart guys killing themselves was funny and probably how naruto chart guys would be.

[VanitasDS76491]

To me the scene where obito dies and meet rin in the afterlife is just an attempt to soft things that he has done. It's just like Kishi saying "Hey please forgive this guy he maybe a mass murderer but he is a good guy deep down , after all uchiha is a cute cool and handsome angel without wings". That scene look sweet but it's just an attempt to make the reader forget about what he has done. To me it doesn't matter what is the reason , he killed thousands and he must pay for what hes done , but instead he get sweet happy ending with rin in the after life. I want to see him burn in hell actually , the soul of those he killed come back to hunt him , rather than seeing him meet rin. Damn uchiha .... always get rewarded after the all the S they have done.
 
It's just like Shikamaru said , if Sasuke is killed by the Kumo , Naruto and Sakura might get revenge on them. And if Naruto and Sakura died , their friends will want revenge too. And if Shikamaru and the other died , their parents definitely want revenge that's how chain of hatred began and before you know it war breaks out. Obito killed too many people , those shinobi might have child and wife , the child will be fatherless and the wife will be widow , they demand justice and they might even hate and curse all the uchiha because of him. And what happen when Naruto called Obito the coolest guy and set Sasuke free after what he has done ? These people might goes bad and become villain because they didn't get their justice. This is one of many part i hate about Naruto , he always make decision himself without asking the other , like when Sasuke become wanted criminal he tell Shikamaru and the other to back off and leave Sasuke to him , because he wants to deal with him alone (more like protecting him). A guy like that can't never be a hokage because he make decision base on personal feelings.
 
Bottom line is Obito by logic spreading a lots of hate towards uchiha and he plant thousands or billions of seeds that might become a villain in the future. But F logic ....

 
To quote Sean Connery from the rock " I don't see how your chairish the memory of the dead, but killing another million. This is not combat, it's an act of lunacy. Personally I think your kittening idiot.
That some sort up obito and sasuke character.
 

The forgiveness thing really only worked well with Gaara. Gaara killed people but it really wasn't his fault at all. He had more in common with Naruto than Sasuke did and his brotherhood with Naruto was much better handled. Honestly Kishi should just have killed Sasuke and had Gaara replace him. His character arc was significantly better and his relationship with Naruto was about 500 times better.

Agreed garra was a better friend to naruto than sasuke was hell Kiba and shikamaru and neji were better friend. But no naruto has a big boner for sasuke than even after saving garra he still thinks he can't hokage. Up your kishimoto their is nothing riding on naruto bringing sasuke back and if he did what then he'd be back to square one a kittening loser since everyone would go back sucking sasuke kitten. So him going after sasuke was pointless cause it accomplished nothing. What a waste of 3 quarter of your story.

[VanitasDS76491]

I did love the part in the War arc with Gaara where he finds out about his mother. That was moving. I was never moved by any of the kitten with Itachi because Sasuke is such a brat about everything.

 
The stuff with garra and the side characters like sai had good moment in the war and dauri was a badass I'm glad he was made raikage. The kitten was itachi and sasuke was boring and dull and tried to get us to feel sorry for kabuto no one cares about kabuto and naruto his ass live to.
 

I can understand forgiving Obito and Kurama to a certain extent, but *Orochimaru*?  That bastard experimented on innocent children in his search for immortality, either mentally breaking them to the point that they became his near-fanatical child soldiers, turning them into genetic aberrations, or simply prepping them to become his next host vessel. He murdered his teacher/ Naruto's grandfather figure in cold blood, nearly destroyed the Leaf, *and* was one of the main contributors to Sasuke's descent into insanity and revenge. 
 
And he expresses no remorse for any of his crimes.
 
In a sensible narrative,  Naruto, at the very least, should want to see him imprisoned.  But no, he occasionally meets up with to drink hot tea and chat it up like they've been friends for years. And if that isn't repugnant enough, he gives him permission to continue his experimentation on children.     
 
I actually have a disturbing theory that the only reason Naruto gave Orochimaru a figurative slap on the risk is because he was the Sasuke parallel of his three-man team.

Heroes should be a symbol of hope like superman, wonderwoman and Captain America, but naruto is not like that he's the opposite. At least Luffy accept his brothers death in a nice moment and he knew it wasn't a dream, but naruto if that happened he'd blame someone else even though he took hirzuen and jiraya death well. But neji dying he loses his kitten really.
  

In almost any other story, Hinata would have been called out. Hell, the SD series called her a stalker. Also, such a strong bond between NaruHina if Naruto just forgot about it like that.

I noticed it too and it's actually funny there.

[Derock]

By all rights obito should have died when the rock crushed him, cause ya that kills people in an instant even if it's half there body.

 

I agree. It was a stupid idea to bring back Obito for the Tobi/"Madara" revelation in the first place. A better idea could had been if Madara was a shapeshifter or possess Obito's body for the sake of some point, i.e, immortality, with some grand design as the antagonist.

[VanitasDS76491]

I agree. It was a stupid idea to bring back Obito for the Tobi/"Madara" revelation in the first place. A better idea could had been if Madara was a shapeshifter or possess Obito's body for the sake of some point, i.e, immortality, with some grand design as the antagonist.

That'd actually be better than what we got, plus can't really take Obito serous after he was deidara kitten so a while and then he's the main villain sorry you can't do that. Obito is not that interesting any way and really I never bought him and rin as a couple since we barely see them together and that two part Kakashi flashback didn't sell me on it either.

[jak123]

That'd actually be better than what we got, plus can't really take Obito serous after he was deidara kitten so a while and then he's the main villain sorry you can't do that. Obito is not that interesting any way and really I never bought him and rin as a couple since we barely see them together and that two part Kakashi flashback didn't sell me on it either.

I guess I'm in the minority because I liked Obito's story and I found him WAY more interesting than Sasuke one of the main characters.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

I agree. It was a stupid idea to bring back Obito for the Tobi/"Madara" revelation in the first place. A better idea could had been if Madara was a shapeshifter or possess Obito's body for the sake of some point, i.e, immortality, with some grand design as the antagonist.

 

By all rights obito should have died when the rock crushed him, cause ya that kills people in an instant even if it's half there body.

 

Funny enough in my Naruto fanfiction that I am working on, I had a better way to do that; Madara is in a cloned Zetsu body before he died in his original body, but because of the overload of his having awakened the Rinnegan (the rules for it differing in my fic than in the canon), he can't use his original eyes yet, so has been manipulating the Akatsuki and others while having "true" followers all designed to lead him to become a new god over a new world, even if it means no one has any free will being trapped in the Infinite Genjutsu, plus stuff like that he actually DID finish off Izuna after he was wounded and such to not make him a sympathetic villain, but to basically in a way like Orochimaru having become evil incarnate.

[LuckyChi7]

Was at my local library, and they had the first 3 volumes of Boruto on their shelves and I decided to skim through the pages, and in Volume 3 Ikemoto had some things to say in the authors section: 

 

 

Edited by LuckyChi7, 24 May 2018 - 08:39 PM.

[Kagomaru]

Was at my local library, and they had the first 3 volumes of Boruto on their shelves and I decided to skim through the pages, and in Volume 3 Ikemoto had some things to say in the authors section: 

 

 

This makes far too much sense. So, Boruto serves as nothing more than the authors' autobiography.   

[hisaberpie]

Was at my local library, and they had the first 3 volumes of Boruto on their shelves and I decided to skim through the pages, and in Volume 3 Ikemoto had some things to say in the authors section: 
 
 

I kind of understand where kodachi is coming from but boruto doesn't have an ounce of originality in him. Hes bratty and selfish. Hes a priviledged kid who acts like hes a victim. And don't even get me started on the poor plot.

[James S Cassidy]

I wasn't saying you were saying that. I just wanted to make that comparison. I actually kinda hate Romeo and Juliet but it's a much better love story than any of the Kishi canon couples.

 

The rivalry kitten doesn't work as a resolution because it doesn't explain what was going on with Sakura. All it does is act as a retcon of Naruto's past expressions of how much he likes Sakura in a romantic way, but it does not explain anything about why things went the way they did with the two of them. Like what Sakura's confession meant for instance. It wasn't a resolution. It was just a retcon, and it wasn't even two-sided. It doesn't properly interrogate any important plot point. It sucks.

 

And you may have seen couples divorced for less, but have you seen couples get married for so little? People in the real world are out for their own best interest. No one with the social value of a Naruto would marry Hinata unless they wanted her money.

But you were....otherwise why bring Romeo and Juliet in this discussion at all. Purpose dictate action.

1st bold: It does. Again, just because it is not what we wanted or what we expected does not mean it is not a resolution. To them, to the writers writing this story, it is a resolution. Just like how JK Rowling says that the Harry Potter and the Cursed Child is canon even though the fans want to deny it being in said canon since it plays hell with continuity. To the writers, we got a resolution. Why did Sakura confess to Naruto? To lie to him. To manipulate him. That is the story they keep telling us. Does it make sense? No. Does it ruin the story? Yes. Do the fans accept it? Yes and no for the most part, but it is the resolution THEY wanted. It is the resolution that THEY wanted to convery. To them, that plot point is resolved even if to us it is not. It does not matter what we the fans think because if it was we would not be in this mness in the first place. If it was really up to us, the story would be 100 times better with actual motive.

The resolution is anti-climatic, but it is still a resolution. "Everything just seemed to worked itself out."

If you really want to take this to the next step, in Romeo and Juliet the families never let go of their grudges. That plot element never got a real resolution and it is assume that the bitter rivalry persisted till the end of days. Again, this is what could constitute it being a tragedy. No matter how bad Romeo and Juliet wanted to resolve or get away from the petty BS their parents had....nothing stopped it. They forever will hate each other. No resolution. No end to it. So if you want to talk about not having a resolution...then Romeo and Juliet is full of them if you want to break it all down. What happened to Rosaline? What happened to Paris? What happened to several characters? Nothing, we don't know. The story just stops at Romeo and Juliet's deaths.

2nd: Yes, I have seen couples get together for lesser reasons than true love. Some get married because they had kids together and that is the ONLY reason. My cousin is a drug addict and got married to a girl only because she got pregnant with his kid. I tried to talk to him about leaving her and starting a new life, but he continues to stay using the kids as an excuse. Basically, the wife is using the kid as a bargaining chip. "Either you stayed married to me or you will never see your kid again." You are probably asking why doesn;t he just file for appeal or something? Well, because he is also a convicted fellon. Drug dealing and such.

How many arranged marriages still exist in this world? How many marriages occur in history where it was more of a political move than a true love one? "Let me marry your daughter and I will give you military aid."

Look up Pope Clement VII and his neice Catherine de'Medici. He married her off to Henry, King of France, to have both money, power, and military protection. It was never a purpose of love, but rather a purpose of political gain. I could argue this is more or less what happened between Naruto and Hinata. Married off for political power derthe guise of true love. Having a son in law as the Hokage seems like a very profitable endeavor. Especially how corrupt it can be used for seeing how Naruto is so corrupt that he even lets Orochimaru away with stuff.

So yes, I know of a quite of few examples where marriage or a couple getting together was not of love, but of selfish gain.

 

This makes far too much sense. So, Boruto serves as nothing more than the authors' autobiography.   

Got it. Boruto is one huge fanfiction by a guy who uses Bolt as a self insert.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 24 May 2018 - 11:32 PM.

[BlueStarSaber]

But you were....otherwise why bring Romeo and Juliet in this discussion at all. Purpose dictate action.
1st bold: It does. Again, just because it is not what we wanted or what we expected does not mean it is not a resolution. To them, to the writers writing this story, it is a resolution. Just like how JK Rowling says that the Harry Potter and the Cursed Child is canon even though the fans want to deny it being in said canon since it plays hell with continuity. To the writers, we got a resolution. Why did Sakura confess to Naruto? To lie to him. To manipulate him. That is the story they keep telling us. Does it make sense? No. Does it ruin the story? Yes. Do the fans accept it? Yes and no for the most part, but it is the resolution THEY wanted. It is the resolution that THEY wanted to convery. To them, that plot point is resolved even if to us it is not. It does not matter what we the fans think because if it was we would not be in this mness in the first place. If it was really up to us, the story would be 100 times better with actual motive.
The resolution is anti-climatic, but it is still a resolution. "Everything just seemed to worked itself out."
If you really want to take this to the next step, in Romeo and Juliet the families never let go of their grudges. That plot element never got a real resolution and it is assume that the bitter rivalry persisted till the end of days. Again, this is what could constitute it being a tragedy. No matter how bad Romeo and Juliet wanted to resolve or get away from the petty BS their parents had....nothing stopped it. They forever will hate each other. No resolution. No end to it. So if you want to talk about not having a resolution...then Romeo and Juliet is full of them if you want to break it all down. What happened to Rosaline? What happened to Paris? What happened to several characters? Nothing, we don't know. The story just stops at Romeo and Juliet's deaths.
2nd: Yes, I have seen couples get together for lesser reasons than true love. Some get married because they had kids together and that is the ONLY reason. My cousin is a drug addict and got married to a girl only because she got pregnant with his kid. I tried to talk to him about leaving her and starting a new life, but he continues to stay using the kids as an excuse. Basically, the wife is using the kid as a bargaining chip. "Either you stayed married to me or you will never see your kid again." You are probably asking why doesn;t he just file for appeal or something? Well, because he is also a convicted fellon. Drug dealing and such.
How many arranged marriages still exist in this world? How many marriages occur in history where it was more of a political move than a true love one? "Let me marry your daughter and I will give you military aid."
Look up Pope Clement VII and his neice Catherine de'Medici. He married her off to Henry, King of France, to have both money, power, and military protection. It was never a purpose of love, but rather a purpose of political gain. I could argue this is more or less what happened between Naruto and Hinata. Married off for political power derthe guise of true love. Having a son in law as the Hokage seems like a very profitable endeavor. Especially how corrupt it can be used for seeing how Naruto is so corrupt that he even lets Orochimaru away with stuff.
So yes, I know of a quite of few examples where marriage or a couple getting together was not of love, but of selfish gain.
 


Got it. Boruto is one huge fanfiction by a guy who uses Bolt as a self insert.

Wait hang on didn't Romeo and Juliet end with the families finally putting aside their differences when they both died, because I remember being taught that in year 10?

I doesn't surprise me as most stories tend to have some form of the arthours life or opinions in the context of their work intentional or unintentional. However the problem with boruto's father issues is that it doesn't really fit into the narrative of naruto as in order for it to work has sabotage naruto's character