54175 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

Yes all logic left Naruto in the end. But it doesn't change that the logic was there before. If we take everything said by Kishi, Shueisha and Studio Pierrot at face value post chapter 700 just because Naruto spat on its own logic then, well there would not be anything to be enraged about, now would there? It is infuriating see to what Naruto has become BECAUSE it betrayed it's logic, themes, story and relationships after 15 years and 700 chapters worth of development. Why did Naruto's relationships with all of his loved ones which are Iruka, Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura, Tsunade, etc. get obliterated in "Hinata's Wildest Fantasy Fulfilled: the Movie" just to make what (imaginary) feelings Hinata worshiper fanatics ASSUME he had for Hinata look like "true love" by comparison?  Why is Naruto's motto "never give up" yet he gave up on trying to save the world because his "sexy, boing boing doll" of a future wife rejected his love confession?

Edited by Phantom_999, 16 July 2018 - 06:43 PM.

[griff142]

Yes all logic left Naruto in the end. But it doesn't change that the logic was there before. If we take everything said by Kishi, Shueisha and Studio Pierrot at face value post chapter 700 just because Naruto spat on its own logic, then, well there would not be anything to be enraged about, now would there? It is infuriating to what Naruto has become BECAUSE it betrayed it's logic, themes, story and relationships after 15 years and 700 chapters worth of development. Why did Naruto's relationships with all of his loved ones  which are Iruka, Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura, Tsunade, etc. get obliterated  in "Hinata's Wildest Fantasy Fulfilled: the Movie" just to make what (imaginary) feelings Hinata worshiper fanatics ASSUME he had for Hinata look like "true love" by comparison?  Why is Naruto's motto "never give up" yet he gave up on trying to save the world because his "sexy, boing boing doll" of a future wife rejected his love confession?

I also hated the fact that they tried to say Hinata was always there for Naruto but eventually he forgot about her but clearly that wasn't the case when they were younger. Yes, she saw the abuse but she hid the shadows which makes the whole situation worse for her.

[hisaberpie]

Yes all logic left Naruto in the end. But it doesn't change that the logic was there before. If we take everything said by Kishi, Shueisha and Studio Pierrot at face value post chapter 700 just because Naruto spat on its own logic, then, well there would not be anything to be enraged about, now would there? It is infuriating to what Naruto has become BECAUSE it betrayed it's logic, themes, story and relationships after 15 years and 700 chapters worth of development. Why did Naruto's relationships with all of his loved ones  which are Iruka, Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura, Tsunade, etc. get obliterated  in "Hinata's Wildest Fantasy Fulfilled: the Movie" just to make what (imaginary) feelings Hinata worshiper fanatics ASSUME he had for Hinata look like "true love" by comparison?  Why is Naruto's motto "never give up" yet he gave up on trying to save the world because his "sexy, boing boing doll" of a future wife rejected his love confession?

 

Naruto gave up because most likely kishimoto gave up. All these blunders has made it clear to me that he stopped caring about his characters and gave full reign to corporate powers whos only intention was to milk money from money from the franchise. 

[thelordofspace72]

Yes all logic left Naruto in the end. But it doesn't change that the logic was there before. If we take everything said by Kishi, Shueisha and Studio Pierrot at face value post chapter 700 just because Naruto spat on its own logic, then, well there would not be anything to be enraged about, now would there? It is infuriating to what Naruto has become BECAUSE it betrayed it's logic, themes, story and relationships after 15 years and 700 chapters worth of development. Why did Naruto's relationships with all of his loved ones  which are Iruka, Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura, Tsunade, etc. get obliterated  in "Hinata's Wildest Fantasy Fulfilled: the Movie" just to make what (imaginary) feelings Hinata worshiper fanatics ASSUME he had for Hinata look like "true love" by comparison?  Why is Naruto's motto "never give up" yet he gave up on trying to save the world because his "sexy, boing boing doll" of a future wife rejected his love confession?

kishimoto has completely destroyed the dreams of naruto, he did not just destroy the relationship between naruto and sakura on each other, but he linked him to the stalker, and do not forget that he converted the dream of naruto to be a hokage to a special episode, so Naruto could not attend the ceremony coronation,

kishimoto dusted the logic There is no discussion in this.

Edited by thelordofspace72, 22 May 2018 - 01:24 PM.

[Yyubie]

I also hated the fact that they tried to say Hinata was always there for Naruto but eventually he forgot about her but clearly that wasn't the case when they were younger. Yes, she saw the abuse but she hid the shadows which makes the whole situation worse for her.

From behind a tree or wall ?

I don't understand when people said Hinata has always been there for Naruto since they were a kid i say that is bull-S.

Always there for Naruto means sharing his pain and loneliness "Together".

What i saw is a stalker that watch Naruto from behind a tree or wall , and she did nothing except watching him suffer.

She had all that time and billion of chances to be with Naruto from way early even before the manga began , but she simply didn't have the courage. Her fear is way bigger that's why she choose to stay hidden behind the tree or wall and watch him suffer.

 

Hinata never love Naruto ... is just an admiration. Like a fans seeing their heroes , but she believe that feeling is love , because her fans wants her to be the heroine and they think she is better than the current heroine at that time.

[Phantom_999]

 

Naruto gave up because most likely kishimoto gave up. All these blunders has made it clear to me that he stopped caring about his characters and gave full reign to corporate powers whos only intention was to milk money from money from the franchise. 

 

Exactly. There is no proper resolution for anything in the manga, all it did was make make room for that god forsaken sequel "Boruto", which by the way also seems so very last minute "decision making". So with that in mind, it can't actually be said Kishi "planned this from the beginning", because it seems to be a self inflicted nuclear bomb for such a "lengthy pondered plan". I mean really, if the plan was to piss off almost all of the Naruto fandom, then job well done, but none of us that have been on this site for a while are convinced that it was planned because no authority of the series can give a straight answer as to what the plan is, they sound like they are just trying to cover up their mistakes by insulting the fans' reading ability and intelligence

Edited by Phantom_999, 23 May 2018 - 02:46 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Writing a certain plot simply because people wont complain feels odd. What are books, mangas and movies for? To surprise, because everyone likes something "old but new". And not: Your order has arrived. Please rate me nice. THx.

This reminds me of what Nostalgia Critic said about Dr. Suess

If the video doesn't work, go to the 12minutes 34 second mark and watch from there

https://youtu.be/F0_W6gomFA8?t=12m34s

"Dr Suess got popular because he wrote what he wanted to see, not what focus groups wanted to see. Have you ever considered the possibility that people don't know what is best for them?

That sums up the Naruto fandom. Kishimoto or whoever thought "this was best" only to realize that it isn't., Trying to please the more vocal group instead of making a natural progressing story is what causes more downfalls in stories than ever before.

NS would most likely pissed off the radical NH and SS fans, but from a majority standpoint the fandom would have loved it or at leasta ccepted it saying "Yeah, that makes sense. At least the story is good even if I am a big disappoint I didn't get exactly what I wanted." Now, noone likes the new Naruto and the story all because "NH and SS had to be canon." I will never stop saying this. "NH and SS caused the downfall of Naruto." People can make claim otherwise, but this is truly what caused the major downfall. Instead of focusin on important aspects of the story, they gave all focus to "Look how important Hinata is" and derailed the entire point.

And I will still stand by that the proof is in the pudding when you look at Naruto the Last. If NH didn't cause the downfall, then why was this movie so Hinata-centric? If the story was not about Hinata or pairings, then why does Naruto the Last even exist in the first place?
 

 

Not to mention that it makes such fanfics pretty predictable most of the time. Not a whole lot of NH fanfics I've read actually seemed really try to do anything THAT different from The Last - Naruto just magically suddenly "realizing" about Hinatatas and falling for her.

The fewer decent ones usually started years before the start of the main series, like Naruto happening to come across Hinatatas' kidnapping attempt by Kumo and stopping it (without anyone getting killed) thus changing events (even better ones actually maintaining that ripple effect too, like without Hizashi needing to be sacrificed, Neji doesn't turn into a douchebag and such), then building up an actual friendship from there, and even developing it by showing things up to the start of the main series rather than "time skip" and them just magically knowing what "true love" is and "knowing" that the other is their soulmate and crap like that.

The problem with fanfics now is that any NH and SS fanfic in existence that will forever be created by NH and SS fans would be them denying the canon that has been given to them. Yes, we openly deny the canon and we do say so proudly, but when these people say you have to "accept the canon," only to write their own fanfiction on how THEY wanted it to play out? Well....

In the words of Asuka in SAO abridged.

 

 

it's funny to me that it was Naruto who had the most genuine and truest love in the series, and yet THAT is the love people want to say was a joke and was the crush, while they claim Hinata and Sakura-Chan's "love" was real when those were the childish crushes all along. Like I said, I feel sorry for Naruto the most in the whole thing, and I want him to get the ending he truly deserved.

NS is probably, when you think about it, the greatest and most tragic love story ever told. Even to this day, Naruto and Sakura feel more comfortable and more incharacter around each other than they do around anyone else.
 

 

I also hated the fact that they tried to say Hinata was always there for Naruto but eventually he forgot about her but clearly that wasn't the case when they were younger. Yes, she saw the abuse but she hid the shadows which makes the whole situation worse for her.

 

It was a tidal wave of damage control.



 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 May 2018 - 12:14 AM.

[DrK]

NS is probably, when you think about it, the greatest and most tragic love story ever told. Even to this day, Naruto and Sakura feel more comfortable and more incharacter around each other than they do around anyone else.

 

The love story isn't properly told though for it to be a tragedy, because nothing is resolved. Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy. If Romeo and Juliet was like Naruto, 90% of the story would be about Juliet slowly growing to love some other Capulet who was always there for her as they went through lots of stuff together, and then at the end she just decides to be with Romeo for virtue of the fact that she's not supposed to be with him and this fact somehow overrides all the legitimate development that existed. See, that would be a terrible play. How could it be written properly? By not having her love some other Capulet, just have her love Romeo only. Which is what Shakespeare did. So is Kishimoto just incompetent? No, he ruined his story because people wanted him to do so.

 

There was no external force stopping Naruto and Sakura from being together to make it a tragedy in-universe. It existed in the form of kitten editors and cancerous fans. It's a meta-tragedy.

[LuckyChi7]

My best friend sent me this video, and wow this guy was on point with something I always imagined should've happened: 

 

[James S Cassidy]

The love story isn't properly told though for it to be a tragedy, because nothing is resolved. Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy. If Romeo and Juliet was like Naruto, 90% of the story would be about Juliet slowly growing to love some other Capulet who was always there for her as they went through lots of stuff together, and then at the end she just decides to be with Romeo for virtue of the fact that she's not supposed to be with him and this fact somehow overrides all the legitimate development that existed. See, that would be a terrible play. How could it be written properly? By not having her love some other Capulet, just have her love Romeo only. Which is what Shakespeare did. So is Kishimoto just incompetent? No, he ruined his story because people wanted him to do so.

 

There was no external force stopping Naruto and Sakura from being together to make it a tragedy in-universe. It existed in the form of kitten editors and cancerous fans. It's a meta-tragedy.

Yes, I am fully aware of Romeo and Juliet. I majored in Shakespeare in college. Even wrote a disortation about how things might have changed if Romeo stayed with Rosaline.

Not all tragic love stories are Romeo and Juliet style. I am hoping you are aware that Romeo and Juliet is not the only Tragic love story out there. However, it did get a resolve...it just didn't get resolved in a satisfactory way or the way we wanted it to. The whole "Naruto only saw Sakura as a rivalry game" was the resolution to it. It's not what we liked. It's not well written, but it is a resolution. It was an answer to a question, plus Shakespeare didn't have a fandom saying "You know, Romeo should be with that other girl in the story because Juliet is a kitten to Romeo."

Romeo and Juliet is not Naruto because Romeo and Juliet is actually....well, good and has a deep meaning behind it. It is entertaining and meant to be seen as a stage play.

Although, speaking metphorically, NaruSaku is Romeo and Juliet in that all the characters do die in the end. The Naruto we knew and loved died in 699. So did Sakura. So did Sasuke and several other characters. They all died and were replaced by these....facsimilies of themselves. Even Kishimoto knows this because he has no answer for any of these. They died. Their character died and all we have left is an obsessive fangirl with stockholm syndrome, a horrible father who is a drunk and a workaholic, and we have another father who is so apathetic to everything that I am beginning to doubt that he is even a character at this point. Merely a cardboard cut out of a poor Billie Joe Armstrong mixed with an emo goth Raven who is so upset because his JO arm got blown off. (No, you read this all right. Sasuke makes Raven from DC look like My Little Pony and with less issues.)

Naruto and Sakura might be more intuned with the movie "Before we go" with Chris Evans. A tragic love story of two people who meet, but never stay together OR in an ironic twist, Shakespeare in Love. Two people meet under the same passion, one inspires the other, and yet they can never be together because she is to be wed to someone else. Details change here and there, but I am going for the basic premise.

The Wonder Years ending is a traic love story. Same concept too. Spend YEARS building up this relationship between two characters only to make them only friends in the last 5 minutes of the show with the words. "Well, things just happen that way." To me, this is the only ending that can compete with Naruto on the worst ending ever. The only thing that makes it slightly better is that this is what the director planned all along. He didn't change it for the sake of a fandom.

"There was no external force stopping Naruto and Sakura from being together to make it a tragedy in-universe."

I never said it was a tragedy in-universe. That would require characters to actually acknowledge it in universe as a tragedy.
"For never was a story of more woe. Than this of Juliet and he Romeo."

Actually, there really wasn't anything stopping Romeo and Juliet either. They could have just ran away and left, but they were also hopeful that their marriage would have brought the two families together. They had a bigger motive in mind too. There was really nothing stopping them from just running away and eloping.
"The fearful passage of their death-marked love

And the continuance of their parents' rage,

Which, but their children’s end, naught could remove."

The biggest tragedy in Romeo and Juliet is not the fact of their death, but rather they couldn't change their families opinions of each other. The two families could never put aside their difference for the sake of love and the only ones truly punished are their own parents. "All are punished."

What's stopping Naruto and Sakura being with each other now? The answer...the writer. I think we both know that in reality NH and SS would have gotten divorces by now and moved on, but the writer loves making these characters stagnant and never realize how truly miserable they are.

Like I said, many times in the past....I have seen couples get divorces over less.
 

[DrK]

I wasn't saying you were saying that. I just wanted to make that comparison. I actually kinda hate Romeo and Juliet but it's a much better love story than any of the Kishi canon couples.

 

The rivalry kitten doesn't work as a resolution because it doesn't explain what was going on with Sakura. All it does is act as a retcon of Naruto's past expressions of how much he likes Sakura in a romantic way, but it does not explain anything about why things went the way they did with the two of them. Like what Sakura's confession meant for instance. It wasn't a resolution. It was just a retcon, and it wasn't even two-sided. It doesn't properly interrogate any important plot point. It sucks.

 

And you may have seen couples divorced for less, but have you seen couples get married for so little? People in the real world are out for their own best interest. No one with the social value of a Naruto would marry Hinata unless they wanted her money.

Edited by DrK, 22 May 2018 - 05:33 AM.

[Kasimir38]

Yes Scumbag Naruto did indeed call Obito the coolest guy.

Here's the actual panel.:

It's from chapter 687.

 

Thanks for sharing. Why was he the coolest guy? Wasn't he the one who actually caused all the mess? I understand that forgiving your enemies is a very noble gesture, however, I feel like he just confused Obito with Sasuke   

[DrK]

 

Thanks for sharing. Why was he the coolest guy? Wasn't he the one who actually caused all the mess? I understand that forgiving your enemies is a very noble gesture, however, I feel like he just confused Obito with Sasuke 

I think it was about the young Obito who wanted to be Hokage and who was a failure who tried hard like Naruto was a cool guy. It's still in poor taste. The last chapters of Naruto has some things in it that are psychologically just appalling. Naruto saying that the person who murdered his parents was the coolest guy ever, Sakura having a child with someone who tried to murder her, Kakashi encouraging the latter to happen, and probably other things. You can take the fanboy or girl bias away and it's still objectively disgusting. Both in context and in isolation.

[Kasimir38]

Yeah maybe Naruto could identify with Obito and was friends with Sasuke who abused his best friend and maybe he could also identify with Orochimaru who tortured little kids because he is okay with him being back in town yeah maybe Naruto is the real villain of the story?

 

Sorry, but "meaning good, doing bad" is actually meaning bad.

Edited by Kasimir38, 22 May 2018 - 01:13 PM.

[jak123]

 

Thanks for sharing. Why was he the coolest guy? Wasn't he the one who actually caused all the mess? I understand that forgiving your enemies is a very noble gesture, however, I feel like he just confused Obito with Sasuke 

Despite all that he did, I'd rather here Naruto call Obito the coolest over Sasuke because Obito was an actual tragic and interesting character.

 

I still want to know why Rin greeted him!

[Kasimir38]

Why wouldn't she?

Rin expected Obito to die, or maybe he is just imagining things.

Edited by Kasimir38, 22 May 2018 - 05:34 PM.

[KClaws_2]

The greatest testament to this horrendous ending is the movie, naruto the last. I think it decided the ending that we have today. I'm not saying that NS was always a red herring, NS has 10+ years of development and in my opinion this pairing doesn't even need a kushina parallel or some life/death situation, it can stand on its own. Naruto and sakura could've come together if they just took that one last step of accepting each other as they are. They don't need some dramatic moment or an entire friggin movie!

 

With that said, I don't believe a word of what Kishimoto says in his interviews. Its been proven time and again that he changes his story in every new interview. I advise all of you not to believe anything he says but instead look at the manga. Because the manga shows every single creative decision he has made regarding the characters and story.

 

Now as to why I think NS became a red herring in the last years of the series. I came across this article last night.

 

https://www.animenew...-launch-in-2014

 

Its a 2012 article about a new naruto movie being announced for 2014. Now this movie is the last, meaning by this point in 2012, people at studio pierrot had already started working on the production of this thing. It is safe to say that the ending was decided in 2012 because it was Kishimoto who provided the early designs for all the characters. the chapters containing the CPR scene and the kushina parallel came out in 2013 so yeah, I do think Kishimoto is despicable enough to lead his readers on by manipulating the wishes of the main characters dead mother.

 

I have worked on a few movies where I'm from and let me tell you that it takes at least two years to produce an animated movie.  Writing the script, coming up with designs, drawing the storyboard, doing the actual animation and then compositing the entire thing takes a lot of time. So my guess is that this ending was decided in the last 2-3 years of narutos run.

I've been kind of back and forth on this. On one hand, Kishimoto did imply Sakura's confession was genuine, I'd like to imagine the NS moments and Kushina parallels after the confession originally had a purpose. Jak also likes to bring up how the designs for Boruto and Sarada look like they were meant to be NS and SK kids and Kishi was too rushed to change the designs. It's certainly possible that they did not tell Kishi about the movie until right before Neji's death, and Kishi went on to do his own thing as long as possible before he had to do what SP was.

 

On the other, given the time it would take to develop the Last, some sort of decision had to have been made during pre-production. Kishi could have easily ignored them and let them do the Last while he did the manga the way he wanted to, but because of his need to go along with what everyone says he chose to make an AU movie canon, plus most studios usually consult the creators on any changes they make. To keep as many fans as possible, it wouldn't surprise me that Kishi kept the NS moments to make everyone stay onboard until the end. He didn't really care about the story after the Pain arc.

[Yyubie]

To me the scene where obito dies and meet rin in the afterlife is just an attempt to soft things that he has done. It's just like Kishi saying "Hey please forgive this guy he maybe a mass murderer but he is a good guy deep down , after all uchiha is a cute cool and handsome angel without wings". That scene look sweet but it's just an attempt to make the reader forget about what he has done. To me it doesn't matter what is the reason , he killed thousands and he must pay for what hes done , but instead he get sweet happy ending with rin in the after life. I want to see him burn in hell actually , the soul of those he killed come back to hunt him , rather than seeing him meet rin. Damn uchiha .... always get rewarded after the all the S they have done.

 

It's just like Shikamaru said , if Sasuke is killed by the Kumo , Naruto and Sakura might get revenge on them. And if Naruto and Sakura died , their friends will want revenge too. And if Shikamaru and the other died , their parents definitely want revenge that's how chain of hatred began and before you know it war breaks out. Obito killed too many people , those shinobi might have child and wife , the child will be fatherless and the wife will be widow , they demand justice and they might even hate and curse all the uchiha because of him. And what happen when Naruto called Obito the coolest guy and set Sasuke free after what he has done ? These people might goes bad and become villain because they didn't get their justice. This is one of many part i hate about Naruto , he always make decision himself without asking the other , like when Sasuke become wanted criminal he tell Shikamaru and the other to back off and leave Sasuke to him , because he wants to deal with him alone (more like protecting him). A guy like that can't never be a hokage because he make decision base on personal feelings.

 

Bottom line is Obito by logic spreading a lots of hate towards uchiha and he plant thousands or billions of seeds that might become a villain in the future. But F logic ....

[DrK]

The forgiveness thing really only worked well with Gaara. Gaara killed people but it really wasn't his fault at all. He had more in common with Naruto than Sasuke did and his brotherhood with Naruto was much better handled. Honestly Kishi should just have killed Sasuke and had Gaara replace him. His character arc was significantly better and his relationship with Naruto was about 500 times better.

[sushi.]

The forgiveness thing really only worked well with Gaara. Gaara killed people but it really wasn't his fault at all. He had more in common with Naruto than Sasuke did and his brotherhood with Naruto was much better handled. Honestly Kishi should just have killed Sasuke and had Gaara replace him. His character arc was significantly better and his relationship with Naruto was about 500 times better.

I don't think Naruto knew all that Gaara did. Hos forgiveness is partly justified. We the readers know because of flashbacks only, that he killed other children in his village. Wonder what their parents think of him now? Hm.

As for the other people I don't even call it forgiveness. Their sins were brushed off like nothing happened. Naruto wasn't even upset at Kurama after he found out he had killed his parents.

Many protagonists are a beacon of hope no matter what fictional work but honestly I prefer the hero to do it unintentionally. It feels more genuine. I really love Luffy for this. Naruto just tries to be everyone's therapist there's nothing charming about that.

Edited by sushi., 22 May 2018 - 09:19 PM.