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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#48581 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 06:25 PM

Exactly. To compare Hinata to Sakura, take each one out of the plot and see how much it changes.

 

With Hinata gone, very very very little changes. Some plot points don't happen the same, but the major arcs stay the same.

 

With Sakura gone, everything changes. Literally everything. Naruto does not set his sights on her, he doesn't work to impress her, he doesn't flip out to save her. And this is just in the first story arc. You couldn't have Naruto, the manga, without Sakura.

 

The only people who think Hinata is important are her fans. But she's not, she barely makes a difference in the hero's life. It's a fact.

Even Neji's story wouldn't change much as the target for his anger at the Main House can simply be moved to Hanabi. Hinatatas is simply the moeblob trope that fans are supposed to want to protect from mean ole Neji. She's literally nothing but a fetish trope in the long run; a trope who, for some reason, is involved in a career she really has NO business being in in the first place with such a "personality". It's why it makes far more sense that she was initially envisioned as a civilian girl. I personally get really annoyed when an anime/manga/etc. do such a thing. 

At least Desmond Doss (Hacksaw Ridge) aimed for a specific role in the military that allowed him to carry out his pacifist beliefs (combat medic), but if he was Hinatatas, he would have ended up trying to be a machine gunner or something in spite of us being shown the backstory of why he refuses to carry a gun and such.

 

True she was annoying at the beginning but everybody could see her character building so it was bearable to me because I was seeing the final product, and man it was pretty nice until Kishi screwed with it.

Similar to Naruto, Sakura was clearly purposely started at a lower point, like an underdog variant, in order to make her development much more noticeable, which it was in part two until, yeah, Kishi and SP screwed it over.

 

I think her hatred was also because of the writing.... 

 

In part 1, she was contrasted with Hinata, the pretty/shy/sympathetic girl. She was shown as falling for Sasuke, then crying to Naruto who then made the promise of a lifetime.

 

She got a bump in Part 2, when her character evolved, she supported Naruto and came into her own.

 

But in Part 3, the post-Pain arc, her whole story just goes flat. She gets no more positive story line, and the comparison with sweet Hinata reaches full throttle. Sakura's is never redeemed.

 

I think there are personal reasons people didn't like her — the tsundere trope being one of them — but ultimately, the story didn't support her. (Or Naruto, for that matter.) I just keep going back to that.

 

If they'd written her as powerful, devoted to Naruto, with a story arc like an enemy that she has to battle on-and-off through the last arc, with it finally culminating in a battlefield showdown — then there would be more people who cared about Sakura. Who still rooted for her. But the story made her irrelevant. So the fans who disliked her did too.

And as I keep saying, I'm willing to bet that a majority of people who claim to hate Sakura because of her actions driven by the tsundere trope absolutely LOVE other pairings whose female is tsundere and have done similar, if not "worse" things to the male, like Louise in Zero no Tsukaima. If you want actual abuse, just look at her.

 

Yes, that is why we were cheering them both on because they made each other better. Honestly that is how a relationship should work and not about obsession. Yes, Sakura had a really bad obsession over Sasuke but when you think about it, Hinata had it just as bad or if not worse because it turned into stalking, which is a crime might I add. To me she is worse than Sakura in that department.

What makes it worse is that she must have seen the looks and vial things done to him over the years but she didn't lift a finger to help him.

That's also something I continuously point out and that NH extremists vehemently try to deny. The ONLY difference between Sakura's crush on Sasuke and Hinatatas' crush on Naruto was how they displayed it - Sakura was loud and up front about hers (constantly asking Sasuke out) while Hinatatas was silent and stalking. Neither one truly knew a thing about their respective crushes besides what they managed to see on the surface, much less "understood" them.

Otherwise, Sakura was actually growing OUT of her childish and obsessive crush on Sasuke, seeing him for how he truly was as well as Naruto, causing her to gravitate towards Naruto and away from Sasuke, while Hinatatas remained the same at best or even had gotten WORSE with hers (especially with her self-admitted selfish confession); still only seeing Naruto as the version she mentally conjured for herself rather than Naruto for who he truly was, still knowing nothing about him (not even the fact that ramen was his favorite food), much less "understanding" his pain, ideals, reasons for not giving up, why he wanted acknowledgement and to be Hokage, etc.


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#48582 griff142

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 07:00 PM

This. I had a non-anime friend a few years back who stopped reading it because I told him the ending. His exact words were "Sakura is clearly in love with Naruto now. If they don't end up together, then what was the point of all this development?"


Exactly, but at the end it didn't because Kishi and SP decided it shouldn't for the sake of making money and tried to hide it by lying to us.

#48583 KClaws_2

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 10:48 PM

This. I had a non-anime friend a few years back who stopped reading it because I told him the ending. His exact words were "Sakura is clearly in love with Naruto now. If they don't end up together, then what was the point of all this development?"

This is another issue that the series is going to have to deal with: the passage of time. Back then, people were so into the shipping and got newcomers engaged, that many are quick to praise the ending BECAUSE they were so wrapped up in the shipping. Now that the pairings have been decided, the war has pretty much died (unless of course Forneverworld decides to throw another hissy fit). That excitement for the pairings is gone now. People will check out Naruto, they may know on some level who's going to get with who...but that same excitement we had will be gone. They're going to look at it from a more neutral perspective. And most neutrals have sided with us on this issue. They'll see what happened with unbiased eyes without the need to make enemies of the rest of the fandom, and care about how the story goes. 

After that, while they may not be as harsh on the ending and Boruto as we are, they will see where the narrative was going and wonder "why?" 



#48584 Phantom_999

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 12:03 AM

This. I had a non-anime friend a few years back who stopped reading it because I told him the ending. His exact words were "Sakura is clearly in love with Naruto now. If they don't end up together, then what was the point of all this development?"

 
I've stated this before. We don't ship NaruSaku JUST BECAUSE we want to, no matter what those loony NaruHina Hierophants say, and definitly unlike them with their NaruHina religion. The story itself was supporting NaruSaku. It has showed how intimate and understanding, not to mention rock solid their relationship was. Naruto is both respectful to Sakura and sees her as an equal, is always her shoulder to cry on and is protective of her. Sakura becomes more appreciative of Naruto, not to mention sweeter towards him and considerate of his feelings, and ultimately becomes more emotionally protective of him. Both have saved each other's lives at various points in the story. They had ONE SIGNIFICANT FIGHT in the entire run, but that did not change or sour their relationship. That is what an equal and healthy relationship is between romantic partners and especially with spouses. Naruto and Sakura had all of that. EVEN STUDIO PIERROT acknowledges this. Why else would they have needed to make Hinata "Road to Naruto's c*#%" the movie where everyone, INCLUDING NARUTO had to be out of character just to justify the romance between Hinata and Naruto? :lmao:    

In fact, why did SP need that no refund policy just to fill out the seats on opening night for that movie if NaruHina was SUCH A GOLDEN AND BELIEVABLE RELATIONSHIP? :zaru:


Edited by Phantom_999, 02 April 2018 - 07:24 PM.

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#48585 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 04:45 AM

Right! And what's really screwed up about the whole thing is that Sakura is robbed of her character evolution while Hinata is rewarded for her obsession.

 

Sakura is shown to have had an arc towards Naruto. They had repeated interactions which built to a larger change. She matured. She grew to understand Naruto. In contrast, she had very few negative interactions with Sasuke (after he left) and distanced herself from her crush on him. Her character evolved, she matured and changed into someone who loved Naruto.

 

HOWEVER, Hinata had no evolution. She was written into scenes at the end, given speeches but few interactions with Naruto that were based on her skill. Just her love. Hinata did not evolve. 

 

Sakura's character is actually rewound back to her beginning character. All her maturity and development is lost. And what fans hate in in her, they praise in Hinata. Because without becoming the heroine or maturing or having a pivotal piece of the story, Hinata is rewarded for her obsessive behavior by getting the hero.

 

How is that not terrible writing for female characters? Hinata is praised for never giving up on Naruto, yet Sakura is bashed for never giving up on Sasuke? (And I'm not even going into the white elephant in the room — Naruto — who gave up on Sakura completely.)

 

But Sakura and Hinata are not equals. And it always ticks me off when fans claim they are. Sakura was the fully developed, evolved, central-to-the-plot heroine of the story. The fact that she does not reach her potential as the counterpart of the hero is the biggest 'screw you' to the readers.

 

As NS fans, we were expected to accept the double-standards of Sakura and Hinata's motivations, and believe that Hinata was somehow deserving of ending up in a higher standing than she should have in the story and was able to win the hand of the hero. But, like I said, it's just a lie so that they can move right into the next series.

 

Yeah, that's why I hate the ending too, Tricksie; everyone got robbed of their development, and with Hinata, she had a REAL chance to develop but no, she had to be stuck, like a mosquito in amber, and couldn't be allowed to change due to loud fans who were only caring about what THEY wanted, especially considering even if she may have felt jealous potentially when Sakura hugged Naruto, Hinata was seeming like she could move one from it.

 

It's what I hate in the long run, that WE are NS fans gotta accept the double standards with the girls's motivations and believe HInata is more deserving of Naruto when she doesn't know the REAL HIM at all. :( Great, now I am starting to stress some.



#48586 griff142

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 12:43 PM

Yeah, that's why I hate the ending too, Tricksie; everyone got robbed of their development, and with Hinata, she had a REAL chance to develop but no, she had to be stuck, like a mosquito in amber, and couldn't be allowed to change due to loud fans who were only caring about what THEY wanted, especially considering even if she may have felt jealous potentially when Sakura hugged Naruto, Hinata was seeming like she could move one from it.
 
It's what I hate in the long run, that WE are NS fans gotta accept the double standards with the girls's motivations and believe HInata is more deserving of Naruto when she doesn't know the REAL HIM at all. :( Great, now I am starting to stress some.

Yeah, you can tell how bad of an ending we got if it raising your stupid blood pressure. On top of it like you said guys, we are forced to believe the ooc of all characters and take it as status quo.

To me if all the women were supposed to be house wives and lose all of that development, then none of them should have been ninjas in the first place.

#48587 winter-serenade

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 01:41 PM

Frankly, I don’t think complete garbage such as this ending is worth stressing over. It is, however worth getting angry at, because there’s so much build up, only for it to go down the drain. It’s such trashiness. No, if I were to sum it up in another word, it’d simply be this: anticlimactic.

#48588 DrK

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 01:46 PM

To me if all the women were supposed to be house wives and lose all of that development, then none of them should have been ninjas in the first place.

True, that's bad enough, but that's a very surface-level complaint. Imagine how Tsunade felt about what Sakura chose to do with her life. Tsunade is the last Senju. Sakura was the true inheritor of her medical techniques, since she was so much more talented than Shizune. After all that time Tsunade spent on her, she simply drops out from everything for no good kittening reason at all.

 

But it gets so much worse. So Sakura is almost like Tsunade's surrogate daughter at this point, because Tsunade is the last Senju and so few people got to learn directly from her. But who does Sakura end up marrying? An Uchiha. Her family's mortal enemies. So not only did this Uchiha take Sakura out of comission entirely, completely wasting Tsunade's time, his family is now the recipient of all her hard work, and his descendants will surely benefit from having all her techniques passed on, rather than anyone whom Tsunade would actually want to have that stuff.

 

Yeah, Tsunade is gonna be super happy on her deathbed. There will be no more Senju, but there will be Uchiha. And the Uchiha are gonna know her medical techniques, while no one else will since Shizune stayed single for whatever reason. Thanks a lot, Sakura. You can tell how little thought went into this.


Edited by DrK, 15 March 2018 - 01:47 PM.


#48589 tricksie

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 05:55 PM

Even Neji's story wouldn't change much as the target for his anger at the Main House can simply be moved to Hanabi. 

So true. Neji's story  — which is infinitely more important to Naruto's development that Hinata ever will be — wouldn't change if they switched out Hinata for Hanabi, or any other Hyuuga female wannabe shinobi. Naruto could still feel the same sympathy for the random girl that gets him to the same place with Neji where he wants to fight him. 

 

And in the end...if it was Hanabi on the battlefield when Neji died, would Naruto be married to her now?!?

 

True, that's bad enough, but that's a very surface-level complaint. Imagine how Tsunade felt about what Sakura chose to do with her life. Tsunade is the last Senju. Sakura was the true inheritor of her medical techniques, since she was so much more talented than Shizune. After all that time Tsunade spent on her, she simply drops out from everything for no good kittening reason at all.

 

But it gets so much worse. So Sakura is almost like Tsunade's surrogate daughter at this point, because Tsunade is the last Senju and so few people got to learn directly from her. But who does Sakura end up marrying? An Uchiha. Her family's mortal enemies. So not only did this Uchiha take Sakura out of comission entirely, completely wasting Tsunade's time, his family is now the recipient of all her hard work, and his descendants will surely benefit from having all her techniques passed on, rather than anyone whom Tsunade would actually want to have that stuff.

 

Yeah, Tsunade is gonna be super happy on her deathbed. There will be no more Senju, but there will be Uchiha. And the Uchiha are gonna know her medical techniques, while no one else will since Shizune stayed single for whatever reason. Thanks a lot, Sakura. You can tell how little thought went into this.

Ugh - everything you said.... It's all soooo true!

 

They had to obliterate Tsunade's relationship with Sakura in order to make Hinata look more like a heroine in the end. And for what?!? Hinata isn't even coming into her own as a clan head, as someone who rivals Naruto's position of importance in the village. She ends the manga as the happy little homemaker. Everything Sakura worked for was pushed under for that.

 

And I didn't think about Tsunade and the loss of her legacy with Sakura. Specifically, if Sakura ever does teach anyone about healing, it will be her own children, the enemy of Tsunade's line!!!

 

But Tsunade doesn't get any better treatment than any of the other women in the end. She's more of a drinker/carouser than ever. No signs she started a medic-nin school, or has the hopsital named for her, or was able to succeed in the goal of having a healer in every ninja cell. Nope. She's just drinking and partying into her old age. She's gone back to what she was before being Kage, when she was running away from everything. Except this time, the readers are supposed to feel good about it.

 

It's fun to write about in fanfiction, but the reality is the manga really dumped the roles of women — all of them — by the end. But Tsunade and Sakura were the only ones shown to have real identifiable goals — put medics on ninja teams (Tsunade) and become a medic-nin when there were none in Konoha at the time (Sakura). But both of those were blown up in the end.



#48590 DrK

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 06:22 PM

And I didn't think about Tsunade and the loss of her legacy with Sakura. Specifically, if Sakura ever does teach anyone about healing, it will be her own children, the enemy of Tsunade's line!!!

It's one of MANY things which spells out a stark, pale truth: He did not plan this. He did not want this. Nor was he stringing along both sides with the intentions of picking one. He wanted to do NS and SK "from an early stage". Period.

 

Because things in fact work out in a way that is the converse of what any reasonable person would expect from a story like this. And the people responsible for this were actually stupid enough to portray Tsunade as being happy about it in the dumbass light novel. It's disrespectful and disgusting. And it belongs in the garbage.


Edited by DrK, 15 March 2018 - 06:35 PM.


#48591 griff142

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 08:13 PM

It's one of MANY things which spells out a stark, pale truth: He did not plan this. He did not want this. Nor was he stringing along both sides with the intentions of picking one. He wanted to do NS and SK "from an early stage". Period.
 
Because things in fact work out in a way that is the converse of what any reasonable person would expect from a story like this. And the people responsible for this were actually stupid enough to portray Tsunade as being happy about it in the dumbass light novel. It's disrespectful and disgusting. And it belongs in the garbage.

We all could tell he didn't want this and the fact he did it anyways makes me more mad than any else he has done. Heck, if Jiraiya was alive he would be very upset with her behavior. He maybe be the great Ero-sennin but he would be disgusted with the roles we see now.

#48592 jak123

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 09:19 PM

We all could tell he didn't want this and the fact he did it anyways makes me more mad than any else he has done. Heck, if Jiraiya was alive he would be very upset with her behavior. He maybe be the great Ero-sennin but he would be disgusted with the roles we see now.

Ah, Jiraya and Tsunade. Older parallels of Naruto and Sakura. Both clearly like each other, but never got the chance to explore because they had to kill off Jiraya. There were many other characters more suited to die than him. 



#48593 DrK

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:06 PM

Ah, Jiraya and Tsunade. Older parallels of Naruto and Sakura. Both clearly like each other, but never got the chance to explore because they had to kill off Jiraya. There were many other characters more suited to die than him. 

J-man was one of the only characters that didn't get screwed over, because they killed him. Tsunade didn't die, so she did get screwed over, unfortunately. It's funny how Naruto became so horrible that death is the happiest result for any given character.



#48594 jak123

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:12 PM

J-man was one of the only characters that didn't get screwed over, because they killed him. Tsunade didn't die, so she did get screwed over, unfortunately. It's funny how Naruto became so horrible that death is the happiest result for any given character.

I don't know, it would have been nice if Neji lived. Then he could have gotten together with TenTen and she wouldn't be an old spinster now.



#48595 DrK

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:21 PM

I don't know, it would have been nice if Neji lived. Then he could have gotten together with TenTen and she wouldn't be an old spinster now.

It's possible that she was the mother to Lee's child/clone/student. But I doubt it. It's probably the case that he is just some random kid that Lee adopted and both Lee and Tenten went without love. That seems the most likely, because it's the most pathetic option. So you can be sure that Kishimoto went with it. Because he chose that for Naruto, Sakura, and many more.



#48596 griff142

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:37 PM

It's possible that she was the mother to Lee's child/clone/student. But I doubt it. It's probably the case that he is just some random kid that Lee adopted and both Lee and Tenten went without love. That seems the most likely, because it's the most pathetic option. So you can be sure that Kishimoto went with it. Because he chose that for Naruto, Sakura, and many more.


I always thought Lee and Tenten would get together and bond over Neji's death. I could see them being alone, or at least Lee because of his eccentric personality. To me they were better off than Choji. Seriously, his was easily the most random pairing. I swear it felt like Kishi threw darts on a dartboard and went with whatever stuck.

#48597 jak123

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:48 PM

I always thought Lee and Tenten would get together and bond over Neji's death. I could see them being alone, or at least Lee because of his eccentric personality. To me they were better off than Choji. Seriously, his was easily the most random pairing. I swear it felt like Kishi threw darts on a dartboard and went with whatever stuck.

I don't know out of all of the bad pairings, Choji's would be the most plausible. I feel really bad for Ino who was stuck with Sasuke's replacement. Yeah Sai was cool and all, but there's no reason they would have gotten together other than him being in Sasuke's place. 



#48598 DrK

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:49 PM

I always thought Lee and Tenten would get together and bond over Neji's death. I could see them being alone, or at least Lee because of his eccentric personality. To me they were better off than Choji. Seriously, his was easily the most random pairing. I swear it felt like Kishi threw darts on a dartboard and went with whatever stuck.

Choji if anything was better served than most. Naruto definitely wishes that he got what Choji got rather than being stuck in an endless purgatory with some moe piece of trash that he has zero chemistry with. Karui is like the Kumo version of Sakura. And Hinata would actually have been a decent wife for Choji, unlike Naruto.


Edited by DrK, 15 March 2018 - 10:50 PM.


#48599 griff142

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 11:32 PM

Choji if anything was better served than most. Naruto definitely wishes that he got what Choji got rather than being stuck in an endless purgatory with some moe piece of trash that he has zero chemistry with. Karui is like the Kumo version of Sakura. And Hinata would actually have been a decenpt wife for Choji, unlike Naruto.


I understand. I am just saying everybody you got paired with had at least a history. Choji and Karui have nothing. I agree though, that Choji was better off. What is even weirder is some girl desperate enough to sleep with old snake face Orchimaru.

#48600 DrK

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 11:49 PM

I understand. I am just saying everybody you got paired with had at least a history. Choji and Karui have nothing. I agree though, that Choji was better off. What is even weirder is some girl desperate enough to sleep with old snake face Orchimaru.

Well, all Sai and Ino have is one conversation, the contents of which were that Sai did not find her attractive, and lied to her about this fact, a lie that Ino failed to detect despite her mentalist skills.

 

Sometimes no development is better.


Edited by DrK, 15 March 2018 - 11:49 PM.





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