54216 replies to this topic

[Tsuki Hoshino]

They also conveniently forget that Cloud's remorse was compounded by the deaths of Aerith *and* Zack, not just Aerith alone. And his depression and survivor's guilt didn't begin to exacerbate until Denzel as well as himself contracted Geostigma. 

 

The more irrational fans also tend to disregard the fact that she's found her own happiness by being reunited with Zack and despite what they want to think, they still retain their love for one another.  Unless they think that Aerith would dump Zack for Cloud or, even more hilariously, form a threesome lol.

Zerith is as heavily pushed in the compilation as Cloti tbh. Cloud places the Buster sword among her flowers at the end of the movie, Zack is never far from Aerith in Cloud's visions of them. Even he seems to know whats up. 

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the "Maiden Who Travels The Planet." Novella, its canonical status is questionable, but it does feature Aerith being pretty dismissive of Zack and calling Cloud her "beloved." as it chronicals her time in the lifestream. But it also has her acknowleding Cloti soo....and also "Smiling like an affectionate mother." at them  

But yea the reason Cloud leaves Tifa and the Kids prior to AC isn't because he wants to be with Aerith but because he feels like a miserable screw up. He's basically in the midst of a real life crisis, and goes off to die out of sight so he doesn't have to watch them suffer, nor have them watch himself suffer. He's a man trying to face his inevitable death alone essentially. 

[Kagomaru]

Zerith is as heavily pushed in the compilation as Cloti tbh. Cloud places the Buster sword among her flowers at the end of the movie, Zack is never far from Aerith in Cloud's visions of them. Even he seems to know whats up. 

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the "Maiden Who Travels The Planet." Novella, its canonical status is questionable, but it does feature Aerith being pretty dismissive of Zack and calling Cloud her "beloved." as it chronicals her time in the lifestream. But it also has her acknowleding Cloti soo....and also "Smiling like an affectionate mother." at them  

But yea the reason Cloud leaves Tifa and the Kids prior to AC isn't because he wants to be with Aerith but because he feels like a miserable screw up. He's basically in the midst of a real life crisis, and goes off to die out of sight so he doesn't have to watch them suffer, nor have them watch himself suffer. He's a man trying to face his inevitable death alone essentially.

 

Yeah, I don't count that novel as part of the canon since it was written by an outside source with no input from Square Enix or the creative team behind FFVII(whereas the Compilation series are written by Kazushige Nojima, the scenario writer of FFVII), and it contradicted certain facts (like Cloud learning Omnislash from Zack when he had no such technique). Also, given how Aerith reacted to the news of Zack's death in the original game and her behavior to all mentions to him prior, It was pretty out of character for her to act like that towards him since she clearly wasn't over him before her death. There's also the fact that the short story has been consistently omitted from mention in every Ultimania guide since it appeared in Final Fantasy VII Omega, whereas the Compilation novels are always referenced. So, I think it's relatively safe to assume that even SE doesn't think the book is canonical to the series. 

Edited by Kagomaru, 19 February 2018 - 03:54 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I think at one time it WAS canon, but it fell out of favor with SE at some point or another. Given the massive gaps there are between additional amendments to FF7's canon, its not surprising. Dirge of Cerberus wasn't exactly faithful either, but its Canon. Now, having said that, I don't particularly like MWTP either, for the reasons you listed. Buuut it does point out a bit of hypocrisy on the part of Cleriths who latched onto Aerith referring to Cloud as her "Koibito" and then turned around and contorted themselves in an effort to try and explain away the times Tifa was referenced as someones "koibito." 

My favorite Novella was Case of Tifa there is that scene where Cloud is literally sleeping- in whats their bed and she wakes him up to ask if he loves her or not and then wusses out and is like "no no i meant do you love Merlene?!" And the dope is like "yea sure." 

The mental gymnastics hardcore Cleriths went through to avoid the obvious conclusion that they were in their room together was nuts. "So Cloud is sleeping in HIS room and Tifa just comes in to stare at him for a while and then asks if he loves her?" "Yes." "And Cloud's not creeped out by that at all?" "Nope."  

Honestly, Case of Tifa is REAAALLLY damning to Clerith. 

[Kagomaru]

I think at one time it WAS canon, but it fell out of favor with SE at some point or another. Given the massive gaps there are between additional amendments to FF7's canon, its not surprising. Dirge of Cerberus wasn't exactly faithful either, but its Canon. Now, having said that, I don't particularly like MWTP either, for the reasons you listed. Buuut it does point out a bit of hypocrisy on the part of Cleriths who latched onto Aerith referring to Cloud as her "Koibito" and then turned around and contorted themselves in an effort to try and explain away the times Tifa was referenced as someones "koibito." 

My favorite Novella was Case of Tifa there is that scene where Cloud is literally sleeping- in whats their bed and she wakes him up to ask if he loves her or not and then wusses out and is like "no no i meant do you love Merlene?!" And the dope is like "yea sure." 

The mental gymnastics hardcore Cleriths went through to avoid the obvious conclusion that they were in their room together was nuts. "So Cloud is sleeping in HIS room and Tifa just comes in to stare at him for a while and then asks if he loves her?" "Yes." "And Cloud's not creeped out by that at all?" "Nope."  

Honestly, Case of Tifa is REAAALLLY damning to Clerith. 

Makes me mildly curious how well they performed in the cerebral gymnasium when Nomura and Kitase blatantly admitted that they slept together on the Highwind or when it was discovered that Cloud and Tifa were seen with what appear to be wedding bands on their fingers in Advent Children Complete?

Edited by Kagomaru, 19 February 2018 - 05:18 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

All the Clerith stuff is pratically debunked and at the end of the day, no matter what, they left it up to the player. In fact, these same people believe the "Squall is Dead" theory even though, just recently, they officially said that is not true although the idea is kind of neat and may be the case in the FF8 remake.

https://vow-upon-a-s...n-up-for-debate

Of course you also have stuff like this

http://cloud-and-tif...oud-never-loved

isn't it funny how Clerith is as bad as NH? I mean, in terms of fanbase that is. Some go so far to ignore facts or make up their own to prove their canon is right.

I do think there is a difference though with us. We accept the ending of Naruto happened, but we don't accept it as "planned" or "good." Clerith fans can be shown proof that Cloti is canon and they continue to want to believe that Clerith is still good even though again proof shows otherwise.

[DrK]

I do think there is a difference though with us. We accept the ending of Naruto happened, but we don't accept it as "planned" or "good." Clerith fans can be shown proof that Cloti is canon and they continue to want to believe that Clerith is still good even though again proof shows otherwise.

Do they kitten on Zack or Tifa the way that fans of one of the pro ender pairings mock and degrade either Naruto or Sakura?

Edited by DrK, 19 February 2018 - 07:49 AM.

[Kagomaru]

Do they kitten on Zack or Tifa the way that fans of one of the pro ender pairings mock and degrade either Naruto or Sakura?

Tifa is a favored target of Clerith but they aren't quite as vicious towards her as NH is with Sakura, but I've never heard a case where they tried to depreciate Zack or his relationship with Aerith outside of the flimsy argument that "She's moved on from him". However, that was before Crisis Core and Advent Children came out and we got a better understanding of Zack's personality and got to see his interactions with Aerith. So, even those feeble objections faded into obscurity.

 

Frankly speaking, the Clerith fandom is not as repugnant or psychotic as NaruHina.  Yes, some members can be reprehensible towards CloTi shippers and downright delusional in regards with their own ship, but they don't make up the majority.  And at least, they didn't go around sending threatening letters and emails to SE to make Clerith canon.  NaruHina, when it comes to the sheer toxicity of its fanbase, is truly in a league of its own.

Edited by Kagomaru, 19 February 2018 - 08:23 AM.

[ultranx]

1st Bold: Isn't that how Hinata happened? "Impractical. Can't be done. Story arc." Words Studio Pierrot don't live by. Wasn't it impractical every time Hinata got a "scene" in the story at all? Kishimoto gave Hinata very little respect and attention, but all of a sudden became the center of attention. Gee, how did that happen? Hinata suddenly got a spine and became amazing. (At least they think so.) And you're right, if Hinata was so amazing...how did The Last and Boruto the movie even happen to begin with? For someone as powerful as Hinata, Toneri should be one-shotted by her. I mean, if Himawari can take out Naruto, who is pratically god, in one hit imagine what an experienced and more powerful Hyuga princess do to Toneri. Naruto stolen by other Ootsusuki clan? Pfff...child's play to Hinata, right?

2nd Bold: Why should Naruto give a kitten at that point though? He doesn't care now when Boruto tells him he is not home. He doesn't care about missing his daughter's birthday or treating Boruto like crap because Boruto somehow became smarter than him. What you really need to ask is "why would Naruto care now when he never cared before?"

3rd bold: Where have I heard these words from? Oh yeah "NaruHina can't happen because the story doesn't support it." Talk about final words before we got put in front of a firing squad by Kishimoto, Studio Pierrot, and all the pro-ender fandoms. NaruSaku gets shot to death in what appears to be a brutal execution. The pro-enders laughed and said serves us right while the rest of the fandom called it injustice for charging us with crimes that they deemed wrong.

I have learned to accept two things in my life after the ending of Naruto.
1. Nothing is ever impossible. No matter how unlikely it may be people will always manage to acheive it. Whether good or bad.
2. People only believe what they want to believe and not what is actually true. This goes for politics, fandoms, and more.

You are right though. It won't happen. Not because it can't happen, but because they don't want it to happen. They rather have Naruto murder Hinata and take his own life than have a divorce. Look at Analyzer and what she said about it. She is okay with Kakuzu ripping people's hearts out, Hidan sacrificing people in a religious satanic ritual, and even dismemberment, torture, child porn, and child experimentation,.....but apparently, Naruto getting a divorce is just "too dark" for children to read.

 

kinda hypocritical of analyzer too since digimon had divorced parents, and isn't any darker than naruto.

[Phantom_999]

Because NaruHina is a "sacred cow" that no-one should ever touch!!!!!  

[jak123]

Tifa is a favored target of Clerith but they aren't quite as vicious towards her as NH is with Sakura, but I've never heard a case where they tried to depreciate Zack or his relationship with Aerith outside of the flimsy argument that "She's moved on from him". However, that was before Crisis Core and Advent Children came out and we got a better understanding of Zack's personality and got to see his interactions with Aerith. So, even those feeble objections faded into obscurity.

 

Frankly speaking, the Clerith fandom is not as repugnant or psychotic as NaruHina.  Yes, some members can be reprehensible towards CloTi shippers and downright delusional in regards with their own ship, but they don't make up the majority.  And at least, they didn't go around sending threatening letters and emails to SE to make Clerith canon.  NaruHina, when it comes to the sheer toxicity of its fanbase, is truly in a league of its own.

I'm of the opinion that I would have been okay with Aerith and Cloud ending up together if she had lived.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Tifa is a favored target of Clerith but they aren't quite as vicious towards her as NH is with Sakura, but I've never heard a case where they tried to depreciate Zack or his relationship with Aerith outside of the flimsy argument that "She's moved on from him". However, that was before Crisis Core and Advent Children came out and we got a better understanding of Zack's personality and got to see his interactions with Aerith. So, even those feeble objections faded into obscurity.

 

Frankly speaking, the Clerith fandom is not as repugnant or psychotic as NaruHina.  Yes, some members can be reprehensible towards CloTi shippers and downright delusional in regards with their own ship, but they don't make up the majority.  And at least, they didn't go around sending threatening letters and emails to SE to make Clerith canon.  NaruHina, when it comes to the sheer toxicity of its fanbase, is truly in a league of its own.

 

At least there is that, but at the same time, they can be bad. Even if NaruHina still has them beat for their toxicity.

[Phantom_999]

Welp my only thoughts for this conversation is  1) Cloufa 4 life!!!! and 2) Clourith, with Aerith dead, is STILL an infinitely better love story than Naruhina.

 

side note* ANY fictional romance is better than NaruHina!!! Why? Because NOT OTHER LOVE INTEREST ACTUALLY EVER RUINED THE STORY!!!!!!!!    

Edited by Phantom_999, 19 February 2018 - 06:56 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

side note* ANY fictional romance is better than NaruHina!!! Why? Because NOT OTHER LOVE INTEREST ACTUALLY EVER RUINED THE STORY!!!!!!!!    

 

Yeah, even if some still can suck like NaruHina, BUT not at the level it sucks at!!

[DrK]

Welp my only thoughts for this conversation is  1) Cloufa 4 life!!!! and 2) Clourith, with Aerith dead, is STILL an infinitely better love Story than Naruhina.

 

side note* ANY fictional romance is better than NaruHina!!! Why? Because NOT OTHER LOVE INTEREST ACTUALLY EVER RUINED THE STORY!!!!!!!!    

It ruined the story. It ruined the characters. What else did it ruin? I guess the animation in the anime? It definitely ruined the music in the anime. With all the really emotional tracks for the tragic flashbacks. What was the point of all that emotion if Naruto failed to do anything to correct all this tragedy, and it's only gonna get repeated? What's the point of making us feel sad that Sakura doesn't love him, if Sakura will never love him? Seriously. Hinata has the power of making everything pointless. That's her real bloodline limit.

Edited by DrK, 19 February 2018 - 05:24 PM.

[winter-serenade]

Yeah, even if some still can suck like NaruHina, BUT not at the level it sucks at!!

SasuSaku would like to have a word with you, Bryon...

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

SasuSaku would like to have a word with you, Bryon...

 

Touché, Winter. I did say some, but I figured SasuSaku was a gimme like NaruHina, so no need to mention it.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Do they kitten on Zack or Tifa the way that fans of one of the pro ender pairings mock and degrade either Naruto or Sakura?

 

Its calmed down over the years, but it honestly used to be AS bad if not worse then NH/SS VS NS. I mean you had people accusing Cloti fans of only liking it because Tifa had big boobs. Or that "Tifa was not in the original script of FF7 therefore she's not important." Except that at one point Aerith was envisioned as Sephiroth's lover, and then his sister in the drafts....soo, if only the original drafts matter Seprith is a thing. In a lot of ways (imo) Tifa was the Hinata of ff7, but if Hinata were actually a good character with a back bone, who was capable and was actually important to the MC. ( so not like Hinata at all except in similar arch type and looks. )

The thing about FF7 is that there are Optional scenes and routes, but certain ones are treated as "Canonical." for instance you can CHOOSE to have Yuffie and Vincent join the team, or you can ignore that. But SE has always treated the option where they join as canonical, just as they always treat the High affection scene with Tifa as canon, and Aerith's date with Cloud as canon. 

I'm actually really excited for the upcoming remake   
 

[Phantom_999]

SasuSaku would like to have a word with you, Bryon...

 

SasuSaku didn't ruin the story though and IT like like the kitten fest that is Boruto is just a by product of making NH canon  So it is only SLIGHTLY better in that regard and WAY WORSE in terms of relationship functionality

Edited by Phantom_999, 19 February 2018 - 06:55 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

You don't even have to look that far into the episode either to notice the bias. Not that you want to, but compare the Hinata's confession episode to the episode right after it. One minute everything is highly detailed and realistc and then the next it becomes Looney Toons. No, Looney Tunes has better animation.


 

 

Oh god, don't remind me.  I was once dating a girl who was a huge Cloud and Aerith fan and I was a Cloud and Tifa fan.

Now they started saying how Cloud and Tifa are the worst scum ever because all they do is bash Aerith and stuff. Okay, whatever. One day I got into a discussion with them and they were talking about the ending and what not. I said "How is Aerith and Cloud going to work when she is dead? I mean, I can tell Cloud could have had a thing for her, but eventually he could move on to Tifa and we know Tifa had a crush on Cloud. So, why not both? Plus, Aerith can be with her other first love Zack."

OMG, you would think I have started world war 9. They started bashing me, telling me I am trolling, and accusing me of "causing trouble." ( So much for the the Cloti fans being more toxic.) I didn't say Cloud and Aerith was stupid or anything, but rather that it is hard for them to have a relationship when she is dead. Heck, I have my own dead love too and told them about the story and how she told me to find someone to make her as happy as I did her. They didn't like that. She were ranting even more.

I was trying to be mature and showed them the Highwinds scene and an article pratically confirming Cloud and Tifa's relationship as canon which was pushed by one of the directors of FFVII and they just flipped their lid like how dare I bring up such things. My girl, at the time, called me the biggest jerk and told me that I am a scumbag for not understanding. I didn't bash Aerith either, I jsut said that even Aerith herself said that Cloud needs to stop blaming himself for her death and live his life.

They also said that, and I am not joking, that Cloud will forever stay alone because Aerith was his one and only true love and anyone else is pointless. Also, Aerith could come back to life if she wanted to, but she chooses not to because they would need to sacrifice a person like Sephiroth did.

I have to say, the Cloud and Aerith rabid fanbase is just as bad as the rabid NH fanbase.

And, love it or hate it, one of Advent Children's constant themes involving Cloud was being able to move on, like Sephiroth being gone ("Go back to where you belong - in my memories.") and especially Zack and Aerith's deaths and to stop blaming himself for them. Heck, one of the last scenes of Advent Children was showing Cloud seeing Zack and Aerith's spirits moving to the light, an obvious show of them finally passing on contently, and Aerith telling him that "everything will be okay now". 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

And, love it or hate it, one of Advent Children's constant themes involving Cloud was being able to move on, like Sephiroth being gone ("Go back to where you belong - in my memories.") and especially Zack and Aerith's deaths and to stop blaming himself for them. Heck, one of the last scenes of Advent Children was showing Cloud seeing Zack and Aerith's spirits moving to the light, an obvious show of them finally passing on contently, and Aerith telling him that "everything will be okay now". 

 

And yet we see in Naruto how Naruto hasn't been able to move on from Neji's death it seems, just like how Shikamaru couldn't move on from Asuma's, which shows how much better all the aspects of Final Fantasy VII are written than Naruto was.